Jivana Heyman 0:17
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land, and I'm so glad you're here. Thanks so much for joining me today. I have a great conversation with the incredible Indu Arora. I I love her. I mean, she's a close friend of mine, but also just such an incredible teacher. Probably one of the most knowledgeable yoga teachers I know of, and also maybe one of the most humble because she doesn't even call herself a teacher, which is something that we talk about in the interview. Anyway, if you don't know her already, I hope that you'll look her up and look into her books and her trainings. There are just so many options, so many topics that she covers, and also she's joining us on faculty for the Accessible Yoga Training Online. So she'll be joining us for the upcoming program that starts in September, and I'm really excited about that. She'll be teaching about mudras and mantras and making them accessible, which is very exciting. Anyway, I had a great conversation with her. I hope you enjoy it. So here is my conversation with Indu Arora.
Jivana Heyman 1:37
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Jivana Heyman 2:30
Okay, here we are. Hi, Indu! How are you?
Indu Arora 2:33
Hi, Jivana. I'm doing really well, and it's really wonderful to talk to you.
Jivana Heyman 2:39
You too. It's great talking to you. I should say upfront that we're friends, and I do get to talk to you quite a bit. I mean, for me, you know, I don't talk to a lot of people regularly, and you've been so nice and such a good friend over the years. So thank you for that. So I'm not sure how this will go today, but it's just nice to talk.
Indu Arora 2:57
Your friendship is a gift that I cherish in this lifetime very much.
Jivana Heyman 3:03
Thank you. That's so sweet. All right. So I already introduced you, so you don't have to. But I don't know if there's anything you want to say in terms of that. If you want to say hi or mention anything.
Indu Arora 3:16
Hi. You are listening to Indu, a lifetime student of yoga, or maybe watching - I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 3:23
Yeah, probably listening. I mean, we'll share some videos on social media, but it's mostly just audio we're using. And yeah, that's something that I knew you would say, and I love that about you -- that you always refer to yourself as a student. And I just think that that's one of the most special things about you, I think, is that you have this very clear way of actually practicing yoga in your life, and that you're not just doing it when you're teaching. You're not just speaking of yoga, but you're doing yoga, and that means a lot to me. So, that's how I was trained. You know, I think that we're supposed to actually move beyond our ego and recognize that we're spiritual beings, and act from that place, and I feel like you're doing that in the way you refer to yourself. Yeah.
Indu Arora 4:14
Well, I feel in all authenticity and honesty, you can only share what you have become in the process, and I do not think or imagine or understand yoga as something that you do, whether it is in doing teaching or in doing a a practice or a method or a technique. To me, it is a philosophy first, and understanding and really embodying philosophy is a lifelong process, and it is an absolutely truthful statement that I'm a student of this subject.
Jivana Heyman 4:57
Yeah, I feel the same way, but the world often demands other things, you know, and I think it's sad that that's lost a lot these days. I think yoga teachers are often forced by... I don't know what it is. Capitalism, maybe? Just to present themselves in a particular way, you know, as an expert or as a teacher, even, to just put yourself out as this person who knows a lot. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? It's like, expert, I guess is the best word. But it's just so disconcerting for me, and I just know that... I imagine you have a similar concern about that.
Indu Arora 5:38
I don't think much about it, and the reason I don't think much about it is, I can only - I don't want to use the word control - but I can really only work upon what I present, what I add into the world. And I think it is some kind of a grace or a blessing, or good luck, or karma. We can say it in so many different ways. That I met my teacher when I met them at a young age, and they really placed the seed of a thought of yoga in my mind, and that gave me direction -- a lifelong direction. And this direction, in my mind, does not involve what others are doing. It really just involves what am I doing, and hope, and really, really hope that the way a person lives and shares creates a ripple effect. And yes, I totally see that. I'm not denying. I totally see that - that practitioners, teachers, instructors feel the pressure to introduce themselves in a certain way, or present themselves in a certain way, or present to others as if they are experts in a certain field. But when it comes to yoga, we are all just exploring. I mean, the yoga that you share is only the yoga that you have become. I was speaking with my teacher the other day, and she said that all knowledge is borrowed. You can only claim the knowledge that is yours, is the one that comes from your experience and realization. That is the only one that can be considered true knowledge. Everything else is borrowed. Everything else is copy / pasted. Everything else is regurgitation. And I I really hope that at some point in our lives, whether we are seekers or students or teachers, practitioners, wherever we place ourselves, we come to this realization that whatever I'm speaking, am I speaking just because, to put an impression or I'm saying it from some lived experience?
Jivana Heyman 8:00
Yeah, seems like humility, you know, like being humble. Which I don't mean to say it's like a personal quality, but it seems like it's something that we need as a seeker, you know, to be humble. Because otherwise, it's like, for me, my mind thinks it has the answers. It thinks it knows, right? It starts to get full of itself. But remaining humble to me is a practice, you know.
Indu Arora 8:32
hat you're sharing reminds me of another conversation with my teacher, and she said that somehow we have all become data gatherers. Everybody is gathering methods and techniques, and I can add certificates and trainings and hours. But we don't realize that we don't need everything. There is one thing that we may need, but are we able to sort out what is really useful at a given time to us? And that sorting is really important because otherwise we just become hoarders of yoga.
Jivana Heyman 9:13
Yeah, that's a good one. I get that. I think so. Hoarders and also kind of, it's a very intellectual process, you know. And that's a thing I feel like - there is an intellectual component to practice, you know, and to challenging yourself and your own mind - but I feel like that's different than the intellect controlling you, you know, or your mind controlling.
Indu Arora 9:43
Absolutely.
Jivana Heyman 9:47
I think hoarding is a great term because it's kind of how we're trained again in the West, at least, or maybe in contemporary world now in general, that more is going to be better, right? That you need more and more and more.
Indu Arora 9:59
I was hoarding at one point when I was studying with my teacher, living with her and making these really detailed notes of whatever she was sharing, and few years down the lane, I lost that notebook. I lost that journal, and what a shock it was in that moment to feel that, "Oh, what do I hold on to now?" But then the words of the teacher came back to my mind that whatever you are present to, it's already becoming a part of you. And when the time is right, it will come up. It will spring forth. So we have to have that trust.
Jivana Heyman 10:38
Yeah, trust. Well, I mean, it reminds me of what I've been working on in the book I'm writing. I'm sharing a lot of personal stories, and I hesitate to do that sometimes and I'm curious what your thought is about that for you, like in terms of how much you share. Because what I feel is that, I mean, I can share the teachings when I'm teaching, but I kind of feel like there's benefit in just giving the example that I've lived through, like telling my story. Like, here's when this practice worked for me. This is what happened when it didn't. Just like kind of going through... I kind of went all the way back in this book to my childhood and what brought me into yoga and into meditation and, yeah, how it's been such a journey. And sometimes it feels very self-involved. Like, sometimes when I'm doing that, I'm like, is this really useful? But then I keep going back to this feeling of like, well, this is just my experience. What else do I have, you know, to share? I'm just curious about that for you.
Indu Arora 11:41
I have often used stories from personal life as bridges to theory and philosophy, because that is how life has moved through me. That is how I have digested a philosophical concept, and that is where it hit me in my life, and I was given an opportunity to work with it. Sometimes I feel that what may happen, and I'm not saying it happens for you, but sometimes what happens or what may happen is when we are sharing a particular way something has worked for us, we may not add, "It might work for you." Sometimes we get so focused upon it that this is how it worked for me, and this is how it will work for you. So that promise that we start making, and the expectations that are built up - that if you do this and this and this, this is what is going to happen. We forget the individual. We are focusing on individuality, but we are still not focusing on the individual. That the practice does not, or the method, or our story did not work in isolation. Wherever we were in our life, physically, mentally, emotionally, and if we think about Indic wisdom, then karma also plays a role. Karmically, at that time, that practice spoke to us, and it worked. And it may not happen for everybody, so I feel that we have to leave that space for the individual to exist.
Jivana Heyman 13:21
Yeah, I love that. I notice a lot of spiritual books use third person plural, like "we." We do this, we do that, we do this... and I notice I slip into that sometimes, and sometimes it's it's grammatically correct and it makes sense when talking about a particular concept, but oftentimes I think it's more what you're saying. I think a lot of the teachings are often presented as the fact, and like this is what we are doing, and this is what happens to us when we do this thing, and that's concerning to me. So I've tried to shift to either first person, talking about me or you. Say you might have this, you that, but like, I just think this kind of group mentality is difficult. We're so individual, you know, and that's also been just something I'm struggling with in writing about meditation -- is just that I used to think everyone had the same experience, but my students showed me over the years that's not true.
Indu Arora 14:23
That is true, fortunately and unfortunately, that all of our experience, field of experience, is different. The eventual goal is the same. The eventual state is the same. That is where all the individuated mind fields unite. But the pathway is different, and just because it's different doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just different.
Jivana Heyman 14:49
So I just want to go back for one second, though. You said that you do use your personal stories because I don't hear that very much from you.
Indu Arora 14:57
I do. I have a book called SOMA: 100 Heritage Recipes for Self-Care, and almost every every recipe has a micro story by the end.
Jivana Heyman 15:06
Okay, that's true. I guess
Indu Arora 15:08
Every recipe has a micro story by the end, and often in trainings and workshops, when I'm trying to share about a certain concept, and a story pops up in my head, I do share it.
Jivana Heyman 15:23
Okay.
Indu Arora 15:27
If there is a context to it.
Jivana Heyman 15:28
Because I think it's interesting. I think you have an interesting story, and I don't think many people get to hear that. But I could be wrong. I'll just say, you know. I think, for me, I feel like my story is so unusual. I kind of have an unusual life, you know, being a queer person who lived through a gay man who lived through the AIDS epidemic and then got married and adopted two children and then having a whole family life. Like, I think I've had a very unusual journey but I think you have too, actually, and I think it's very special -- from what I know about your life and you. So I just want to encourage you, not that you asked me.
Indu Arora 16:09
Well, you are my friend, so I take your words sincerely.
Jivana Heyman 16:15
Yeah. I would just love to hear more. I always want to hear more about your life. Okay, well, we can talk about something else.
Indu Arora 16:25
It is your podcast. Ask me whatever you would like to ask!
Indu Arora 16:29
No. Okay. Well, then, is there something you want to share? Anything that comes up when you think about that? Anything? Maybe you could give us one story or something or one example that you like to use when you're teaching, from your personal experience. You probably have hundreds.
Indu Arora 16:45
Yeah, there are so many. One thing that's coming to my mind right now is how I showed up at my teacher's place when I was 19. You know, if anybody knows me in my teenage years, that time they would know me as a chatterbox, and I was a go-getter. Talk about academic awards. Talk about in the field of sports and drama. Everything. I was doing everything that I could at that time. So I went there with that mindset, but with the thought to study yoga, and my teacher let me do whatever I wanted to do for the first two days. Which means, what would that mean? Getting up whenever I want, showing up in her classes, you know, everything at my ease with a whole plethora of cosmetics spread out for my skincare and for my hair care, very much into all of that. Two days, just two days. My teacher gave me two days. The third day, she walked into the room in which I was staying and gently knocked at the door at 4:30 a.m. with a glass of warm water, and she called my name, "Indu" and I immediately went from horizontal to vertical, like you know, really got up, not expecting somebody to knock the door. And of course, my ears were very, very present to her voice. And she stepped in and she said two things. One is, "Why are you here? You are here to study yoga. I will not remind you more than three times when I see that you're doing something which is not in alignment with why you are here." That gave me shivers in my spine. Those words that I will not remind you more than three times, and why you are here? Something woke me up in that moment, and from that day onwards, the duration I stayed with her was about a six months time period - her classes used to begin at 5:30 a.m. in the morning, and she wakes up 3:30 - 4:00 a.m., and I would wake up around 4 a.m. and get ready and clean up the bed and be there, sweep the room, decorate it with flowers, you know, every single day and stay in the classroom. I think our minds are scattered. The story, the reason I share about this is sometimes we forget -- why are we studying yoga? And sometimes a nudge is important. But it's also important for the person who is nudging to know how much of the nudge is enough. And she made it very clear, that I will only remind you three times. After that, it is your karma. And of course, she gave me... she said that, "Why are you looking for all this external glow and external skincare when yoga has so many gifts?" And she taught me kapalabhati and couple of other methods to help bring that natural glow. So these stories, I think, become stories because they had a transformational effect in your life at a given time, and because it's a lived experience, I feel that we can share - I can share - with authenticity, with passion, really feeling what I'm talking about instead of just saying something.
Jivana Heyman 20:20
That's awesome.
Indu Arora 20:21
There you got a sneak peek.
Jivana Heyman 20:24
I know. I've actually heard that story before.
Indu Arora 20:25
Oh, oh, I am so sorry! [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 20:28
Okay, you've told me. No, you've told me before. But I mean, I think it's a great one. It's a great story. It's worth repeating. No, I'm so glad you got to share that here with our listeners, and I love that. I love the idea of a reminder, or even asking ourselves why. Why are we practicing? What is it that we're hoping to do? Because I think we could get into routine of doing our practice, and kind of forgetting the reason, that what motivated us. And I mean, that could change too over time. I often ask people in my trainings why you know why are you here what is it that you're looking for and I think it's really interesting. Everyone has their own reasons. I mean that's the job of the teacher really, I think, to question the student, not the other around.
Indu Arora 21:21
Or to make them think. I think we are so much becoming a spoon-feeding culture, that everything has to be documented and everything has to be written exactly how it is to be done. Everything has to be pre-thought and presented in a way where there is no room for thinking. But then, what are we going to do with our minds? I think it's so important to inspire others to think, to explore, to give them the freedom to explore. And yes, you can present that. Try it this way, and this is the reason I'm suggesting you to try it this way. But then the other person should also have the freedom to explore this. There is too much dependency on someone else to tell us what to do, how to do, how many times to do, what to look for, what to avoid. But yoga has always been a practice of exploration, an internal exploration. If we are fed everything from outside, then there is no space for our mind to exist in a constructive way.
Jivana Heyman 22:30
I love that. I also I find that people really seem to need permission to focus on spiritual practice. It seems to me like they often come in wanting practical things, you know, they want to learn asana or for me, it's often how to adapt asana. That's what people usually come to me for. But in the end, I actually think that's not what I'm teaching, and I don't think it's what yoga is about. And and I just think people are often surprised that we're just going to talk about spiritual things and yoga philosophy, which is spirituality, really, you know, and questioning, questioning yourself and your mind and your perception of the world. And I don't know how that's been lost. It's strange to me, but maybe that's just the mind and the way the mind is. You know, the mind thinks it knows and it thinks it has a plan, wants a plan, rather than having faith or trust.
Indu Arora 23:33
It's also I feel, yes, all that you shared, and perhaps the productivity mindset. We are so focused on what will be the benefit, and I think this is where yoga started to lose its essence. It already, the word itself, tells you what it is promising. It is promising yoga, a state, and though all those practices that we study about and explore and do, they are all moving us towards yoga itself. So yoga is very clear; it is for yoga. But we all have a different starting point, and that is normal and natural. But I think at some point we need to start looking at it sincerely -- that I approached it for this reason, but what is this really for? And I think maybe that can become a wake-up call at so many different layers. Not that those practices do not have benefits; they do, but I think the philosophy gets lost behind, left behind. And as you mentioned, that many times people come to you for the adaptation part of an asana, but why are we doing asana? Not to build a muscle, not for strength or flexibility, or immunity -- we have added all those labels, and with those labels came benefits. You know, for some people, it became accessible and beneficial and met them where they are in their life. But the other side of it became dilution and appropriation, where pranayama became coherence breathing, cardiac coherence breathing, and yoga nidra became non-sleep deep rest, and shavasana became two minute relaxation. So you know why? Why did it happen? Because we are just focusing on the benefit and not the philosophy.
Jivana Heyman 25:37
Yeah, I always say that these are the side benefits of yoga, you know, health and wellness also, all of that is a side benefit of yoga. You know, yoga is for spiritual awakening. So it's great to be healthy. It's great to have less pain. It's great to have whatever. But that's not the point, you know. And I think it's so distracting, especially in a culture that's very focused on those things, on the body.
Indu Arora 26:02
And not the requirement either. It's not asking one to be completely physically healthy, and fit, and muscular, and flexible, and great balance. (Well, you don't have to tell me that!) It's asking... yes, yes, okay. I know. We're not talking about ourselves in a selfish way, Jivana. I'll call you later about it. But the point is, the point is...
Jivana Heyman 26:28
I mean, as an Accessible Yoga teacher, I'm just saying.
Indu Arora 26:30
Yes, I'm not undermining the benefits and the value of these things. Yeah. But the point gets lost sometimes.
Jivana Heyman 26:39
I agree.
Indu Arora 26:40
That yoga doesn't require... the requirements in yoga are trust, right? We're back to trust. The requirements in yoga are shraddha, truthfulness. Those are the requirements of yoga. Nowhere in yamas and niyamas is there physical strength, and mental peace, and emotional harmony, and balance. Nowhere, it talks about that as the starting point, but somehow we have made that as a prerequisite.
Jivana Heyman 27:14
Right. There's no focus really on that health and wellness piece. That's, like I said, it's a side benefit, and yet it's become the main focus. And actually, what I've found, what my students have taught me mostly, is that there's no relationship or correlation between those things. I even used to have that on a t-shirt, actually, we used to make for Accessible Yoga, is that, "Outer ability does not equal inner peace." Which is basically what I saw from my students, what they taught me is that, you know, you can be near death and very peaceful. You can be almost... you can be enlightened. There's no relationship between what your body is doing and what's happening in your spiritual life. Really. You know, I've seen many older folks, I've seen younger people who have disabilities or chronic illness. Like, when I started teaching people with AIDS, I saw many of them. They weren't coming for the spiritual questions. They weren't coming for asana. They were told there's no cure during those days; there was no cure for AIDS. They were coming... they wanted to know why. You know, why am I here? What is life about? What is my purpose? And what is death? And what will happen to me? They had the big life questions that I think we all have at some point, and then sometimes we just put them aside, but I think we have to bring them back right into the center of our focus for spiritual practice.
Indu Arora 28:43
Absolutely, absolutely, and, you know, I keep coming back to the word yoga. It doesn't start with the letter A. We have made it A for asana. It starts with the letter Y, and we can think of it as a metaphorical Y as a question mark, or the letter Y itself, which means it starts from the deep end. It really starts with existential queries. It really starts with that we are at a point in our life of transition, whether we want it or not, and here we are, and it triggers all these questions. Why is this happening to me? Why is this happening in the world? And what will happen to the body after death? Or what will happen to me? Or why did this person die? You know, this is the pretext of yoga. This state of mind, this curious state of mind, this inquisitive state of mind, this is the starting point of yoga.
Jivana Heyman 29:45
Yeah. I love that, and I also see sometimes - I'm curious what you think about this - but sometimes I notice students tend to, and this is a generalization, but once you see that, when some people see that, "Oh, okay. I see the goal of yoga. I see the point. I see the purpose. I I sometimes see people get discouraged or deflated because they think, "Oh, I'm not there." It's almost like they go from... it's like they think they have to either just not bother with spiritual practice or think they have to be enlightened. I just see that this idea of like working towards that feels very challenging in a conscious way, rather than do you know what I'm saying? I don't know. Like we have to go just from point A to point B, and like you're going to leap there, rather than actually just take this long journey of life and practice on a daily basis.
Indu Arora 30:40
I see what you're saying. I hear it. I'm trying to think for a moment. Yes, it is overwhelming. When we think about yoga and think about its ultimate goal, it can become overwhelming. A, how to reach there? Do I even want to reach there? What would it look like when I reach there? Does it mean I will have no attachment to the people I love, to the things I love to do, to the foods that I enjoy, or to the people that I don't like? I don't want to forgive them. You know, there are so many... no! There are so many, so many real palpable questions that come to mind when we think about what will happen? And I think those are the times where we have to remind ourselves that yoga, as a state, is not a peak experience; it is a state of mind, which means that the way we look at things changes, and it is a lifelong or many life times long unfolding, and we can only move one step at a time. There is no rush, there is no hurry, there is no comparison with anybody or anything in this path. And the reason we get discouraged is because sometimes we put that expectations upon ourselves, or sometimes we get overwhelmed by the goal itself, the achievement of that goal, or what would that feel like -- but I feel that sometimes I've observed we are too much attached to comfort, that everything has to be comfortable. And yoga is not a path of comfort. Yes, you can bring peace and comfort to the physical body, but there will be an idea that you will have to sit with, that will there will be something that we have to digest and chew upon and reflect, and that there is a mental heat, a mental and internal sweating associated with it. It's not a path which is comfortable. The things that we can make comfortable are the body, are the breath, but there will always be an inner striving. There will always be - the word for it is tapasya - an internal heat. There will always be something conflicting that we have to work with. I feel the need to emphasize that it's not always about comfort.
Jivana Heyman 33:23
Right. No, I get that. I think it's very important to recognize that it's challenging. Even though, in many ways, the goal is to remove suffering. (Yes.) It can be uncomfortable to do that. I think it can be change, and change is not necessarily comfortable. Like, I like routine. I like change for myself. So I think that's a great point to bring up. I also think... the other thing I see - I'm curious what you think about this - is a lack of understanding about the householder path. I see people who think that to be a serious practitioner, I have to give away everything or really dive in, you know, 100% versus... well, you can dive in 100% in your life right now, and that what you're facing in your life is exactly what you need. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I just feel like there's a lack of understanding around that concept too, even within the teachings. Like, I think people who go back to traditional teaching, sometimes they have a hard time finding that part, you know, the householder piece. And I know you address that a lot with Ayurveda and those teachings, but I think there's something else there. Do you know what I'm asking?
Indu Arora 34:34
There is a natural graph to ripening, maturing, detaching. There is no fast forward, and it is natural. A householder path is not a less path, it is a path in which you embrace life, in which you learn from life itself instead of opening up texts. The real life people become teachers, the real life situations become the guru, and how we move through that, how we humble ourselves or rise as needed to face that moment - that is yoga unfolding right there without the mat. That, you know, it is not that to really practice yoga in a traditional classical way, one has to renounce the world, that's not how it goes. You have to have a radical acceptance of where you are in your life, and not seeing it as less than, but to see it that this is the path that is unfolding for me, and this is my path towards yoga for yoga, and this path itself will become a support, not a challenge, not a blockage, but a support. The teacher that I study from my the first teacher that I studied from, Shashi Khosla, she's a householder, and she loves food. You must see her eating food. How much she enjoys the flavors, how much she enjoys the colors of life and the experiences of life. Does that make her less of a yogini? Although she calls herself a kindergarten teacher of yoga, but does that make her less? I think it is not that what you are inside you have to wear it on the outside, and this external material life and relationships can continue, and you can enjoy the rasa and the flavor of it, and that does not necessarily mean sweet, that means bitter too. You can enjoy the spiciness and the bitterness and sourness, all of it, and yet there is something within that can stay a little bit untouched, or which always stay untouched -- it's not because you're trying to make it untouched. Those things can coexist. It's not the path of renunciation. It's the path of acceptance. If at all, the term from the Vedic text that is neti neti, not this, not this, not this, is used, which my teacher says it's the yoga of subtraction. That happens naturally, not with force. It happens naturally, just like a ripe fruit falls naturally. So it happens naturally when the time comes, if the time comes -- if that is a part of your path.
Jivana Heyman 37:41
Right. Thank you for that. I mean, I do think that - I don't know if I told you - but there was a time before I met my husband where I was considering becoming a monk, and I don't speak of it very often because it's almost embarrassing. But I really was all in, you know. But luckily, he saved me. But in the end, I think it's more challenging, honestly. I think a householder path is just in your face, you know. Like, and actually, probably even for renunciate, because I know some people who are monks, and they're still dealing with stuff all the time. But I just know, as a householder, that I've had so many more opportunities. You know, life just pouring on me opportunities to learn, you know, more than I ever wanted. But I just feel like there's a little misunderstanding out there about it, that you just spoke to it so beautifully. So, I don't know, maybe you need to teach about that more. I would just love to hear... you know, I think it's just powerful coming from you. I just want to say that. You know, I feel like you speak to the tradition in a beautiful way, and I think people should recognize that the fact that spiritual practice does not have to be separate from life, and that when we separate it, I think we actually lose it, you know.
Indu Arora 38:56
Absolutely. Sometimes I have observed, you know, people have different expectations, what traditional means. And traditional means that I might be a strict person. Traditional means I might not be eating this or doing that, or, you know, it's just everybody has their own assumption. And I am a householder. I absolutely love life in all its colors, and I do not think of it as anti-yoga. I do not think of it. And the teachers that I have met in my life, none of them presented teachings in a way where it is you have to make a choice between do you want to be a householder or do you want to teach or study or explore yoga? Every single teacher that I have met have brought it as life is yoga, and therefore sometimes when I observe, until and unless they have a spiritual name, they are not authentic to yoga. I am wearing what I'm wearing because this is my tradition. It's not because I'm wearing it because I want to prove some authentic connection to yoga. What I'm wearing, whether it's a mala, whether it is a bindi, whether it is a scarf, it's because this is what feels home. It's not because it is a token for being real to yoga. None of it is a requirement. The requirement is more intrinsic. Neither the spiritual name, nor the clothing, or the scarf, or the malas -- you don't need any of that.
Jivana Heyman 40:45
Right. And even the guru, you know. I wonder - I know we've talked a long time - but I just wonder if you could speak to that, because I think you've had such amazing teachers in your life, and I know that you are a teacher to many people, even though you don't consider yourself that, maybe. But I just wonder about that. Like these days, it seems like it's harder, at least maybe in the U.S. to find that connection with a teacher to have that relationship. Because, like for me, I was lucky. I learned from my grandmother as a child, but then I stumbled into a yoga class in my early 20s, someone who was just an incredible teacher to me, and she - Kazuko was her name, Kazuko Onodera - and she really took me under her wing and taught me what yoga was, like in the way I hear you speaking of your teachers, where she taught me how to care for myself, how to cook, how to garden, how to live. Like it was, it was like reparenting, I always say. Like, she basically taught me how to be in the world again, and I don't know if that's available all the time. I don't know if that's available to people. I guess I'm saying, isn't that okay? Like, we can find the teachers everywhere around us. What do you think?
Indu Arora 42:00
Yeah, I'm thinking. I'm thinking right now of this idea, this thought of the availability of yoga. There was a time, and we don't need to move back into the past, but just to bring a reference, there was a time when yoga was sought, and sought not by looking up online which class is coming up, or looking up who who is teaching and is their how does their Instagram profile looks, but really really searching really the the starting point was a very deep cathartic move moment and a transformative stage in life, which already took care of so many things. That what will you not settle for? You know. So your starting point is such a deep place that it almost brings a sense of clarity. That what do I not want? What am I really looking for? And that I feel is important. The starting point has become different, and I see the plus point of it. Such a beautiful grounding philosophy has become available for all of us to benefit from. At the same time, we have to come to that level of curiosity-a burning curiosity where this matters more than many other things in life-to find that word or that teacher or that teaching to land differently. And yes, somehow I can see that there has been a certain blessing or grace in my personal life to have met the teachers that I have met, and I do not take that lightly. And I also, even though I say that I I don't say that I'm a teacher, but that does not means I'm in denial with the gravity of that title, or the responsibility that comes along with it when someone calls you their teacher. I don't deny that responsibility, but I just don't identify that I am a teacher. Just want to make sure that I express that the teachings. See the word that comes to my mind, I don't know why, but in our conversation today, the word that keeps coming back is trust. That we must have trust in this path. This shraddha is non-negotiable. That we will find a voice that can become a guiding light, and that voice doesn't have to come through a specific archetype of what we understand of the word guru. And I remember, I mean, most of the teacher that I keep saying are my teachers. Most of them are not in their body anymore. So what are you left with then? I remember... the teacher that I keep talking about, Shashi Khosla, she is 85 now, which means she's in an aging body. And when I talk to her, I hear her voice, and it's a shaky voice, and I can hear her age in her voice. I remember when I met her last time, she said, "Make nature your guru." The guru in the classical understanding that comes from the texts, guru is not a person, guru is a tattva. Guru is an element that shows up in different forms at different points in life, so I think this idea that I have to find a teacher who has to give me a mantra, who has to give me a name, this is a certain narrative that just picked up strength, but really the word guru is an element, and the real guru, from my teachers' understanding, several teachers' understanding, is nature itself. And I think nature is available for all of us to observe and learn from.
Jivana Heyman 46:15
That's for sure. Also, you said you translate shraddha as trust, but it's faith too, isn't it?
Indu Arora 46:21
It is faith, yeah, and a part of that faith, having faith is having trust. It's just... yes, and those are different words and different implications.
Jivana Heyman 46:33
Well no, I just bring it up because I think that's another way to approach that. Just that faith is, to me, it's the heart of spiritual practice - is building faith, and sometimes it's like taking a leap. Like, you just have to trust. And what I often tell people is that it's already figured out. Like, you know, I guess that's karma too. Just to recognize that you're where you're supposed to be, and so the lessons you need to learn are right there. Like you don't have to go and find problems.
Indu Arora 47:02
hat's true. That is so true! We don't have to find new asanas that we feel the need to master, new balances there or twists that we need to do, new ways to touch the toes. We don't have to go find those issues until and unless we want to, or until that is stopping you from doing something.
Jivana Heyman 47:25
Yes, or if you have so much energy and so much peace that you're feeling great, then serve. I always say, like if you're really feeling great and you want a challenge, give it away.
Indu Arora 47:35
That's such a beautiful thought and so true. Absolutely, that service is integral to the path of yoga. That you don't do it just so that someone hears you, someone listens to you. You don't do it so that someone gives a pat on your back. You do it because it's a debt. The wisdom is a debt, and it must be the only way you can relieve yourself of that debt is to give it away, to share it, and do it from a place of service.
Jivana Heyman 48:08
Yeah, and more than a debt, I think it's actually more. To me, it feels - I don't know-debt feels a little bit like...
Indu Arora 48:16
Heavy? [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 48:16
Heavy. Because I think it's almost like you know you're like this flower you've blossomed, and you share that scent, you know, or you should share the beauty of it with the world. It's like a way of sharing the bounty, you know, whatever you found in your practice, you get to share, and it then you get to enjoy it too. Like I think the way to enjoy life is through service too. You know, that's where that joy comes.
Indu Arora 48:40
I absolutely hear you, and that's absolutely true. It's a pleasure, it's a delight, it's a joy that you receive in service.
Jivana Heyman 48:51
Yeah. All right. Anything else you want to share? We've talked for a long time. I don't want to keep you any longer. I could talk to you forever. Well, I often do.
Indu Arora 49:00
Well, I think we talked about so many different things. I'm excited that you thought it's worthwhile to call me back to your Accessible Yoga Training and share on mantras and mudras, and I'm looking forward to that.
Jivana Heyman 49:15
I'm very excited that the students will get to learn from you. Thanks for agreeing to do that. I know you're very busy, and yeah, and well, you know, I just want to encourage everyone to study with you, not a teacher, whatever they want to call you. But we'll link to all of your stuff, and again, just grateful to have you in my life mostly. Thank you. Thanks for being my friend. Thanks for talking to me today and for everything you do, honestly.
Indu Arora 49:44
Thank you so much, Jivana. Just like your name, just like your name, you are life, and it's a pleasure to have you in my life. Thank you so much. I really hope the listeners benefit from our conversation today.
Jivana Heyman 49:57
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Jivana Heyman 50:49
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Jivana Heyman 51:04
Okay, welcome back. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:06
Hi, Jivana. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 51:09
I'm okay. I'm pretty good, I think. How about you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:12
I'm good. All is well.
Jivana Heyman 51:15
That's good. I was doing great actually. Then all of a sudden, I got like a muscle cramp in my back this morning. Just like for no reason, literally sitting. I was sitting, and I was like, ah, it's so funny. Bodies are so funny.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:27
Do you believe that's trying to tell you something about your life?
Jivana Heyman 51:30
I'm sure. I'm sure it's telling me that I do too much. I did a lot of exercise yesterday. I've just been really into, I don't know, like biking, running, even swimming a little bit, and doing asana and working out with weights, and then actually, Matt and I have been doing a construction project in our backyard, and I showed a reel a long time ago about it. We're rebuilding part of the garden. That might be what it's from, actually, because it's like I was bent over so long trying to build this. He's building a shed and I'm trying to help him build a garden shed.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:06
Yeah, that's gonna like isolate some muscles. You know, I met my mother-in-laws, and a cat just walked into the house.
Jivana Heyman 52:13
Oh, really? Not your cat?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:14
I'm looking out the window, and there's a okay... he just took a look around and came right out. (Do you need to go?) No! I'm sorry to interject. It was very cute.
Jivana Heyman 52:22
Oh, hi. Hi, cat!
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:24
I think I'll walk in and have a look. Nature's amazing.
Jivana Heyman 52:27
Well, you know we have a cat now. It's my mother-in-law's cat. Actually, she went into memory care and can't take care of him, so we adopted him a few months ago. His name's Mo, and he is so funny. He's taking a lot of my time too, just because he's kind of a problem. He sprays inside still, which is really a big problem. So we're trying to help him learn how to be relaxed and get used to living here. But actually, yesterday he was hanging out here in my office with me like a lot. But I have the door closed now. So yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:57
I never see him, actually. Well, when I'm
Jivana Heyman 52:59
Well, when I'm teaching, I keep the door closed. It's just too much noise, and I don't... but sometime maybe I'll let him come in. He's really cute. I'll post pictures.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:06
I was gonna say I feel like we need to talk about the quantity of cat photos and increase that on your Instagram. I think that's at the top of the agenda next time.
Jivana Heyman 53:17
Right. I know. It's funny. I love remixing reels with animals, doing funny animal things, and making it into yoga. I could do one with Mo now that he's a live-in cat I have right here.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:28
Yeah, oh my, you have to do one with Mo!
Jivana Heyman 53:30
I know. Yesterday he was like sleeping on my yoga mat like all day. I don't know what it was about the mat. He just wanted to be on that yoga mat. So that's sweet.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:38
That's sweet.
Jivana Heyman 53:39
was sweet. He's funny. He's a funny boy. Anyway.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:43
Sorry for that diversion.
Jivana Heyman 53:47
That's okay. I know, we're getting too relaxed with this whole thing. I just want to say - no, I'm kidding. Okay, so let's talk about Indu and that incredible conversation. Oh my God, I love Indu and I love talking to her, and I also just want to say I really appreciate that I feel like she was really opening up and talking about things that I don't hear her talk about usually. So I just really appreciate it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:11
Yeah, in I love Indu. I love you. And you two are old friends, and so it's like lovely to listen to two old friends chat about yoga.
Jivana Heyman 54:21
Thank you. It is nice. That's what I love about podcasts. I just get to talk to people I like or I want to... either people I know and I just want to talk to them or people I don't know and I want to talk to. So I like I doing this. Anyway, Indu is awesome. What stood out to you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:40
Definitely a few things, and I'm sure we'll talk about them. But I do like that you two were exploring, like how our real life is the guru. Like you know, it's not what happens on the mat. It's really like what happens maybe after our practice. Like we're still practicing, there's still that thread of continuity, but really, you know how we respond in our lives.
Jivana Heyman 55:01
Yeah, it's so important what you're saying. (It's the biggest teacher.) It's the teacher?
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:07
Yeah, those are like the biggest teachers.
Jivana Heyman 55:09
Yeah, the challenges. I remember talking about that, mentioning that to her. That, you know, it's like a householder path, really, is an incredible opportunity because life brings so many challenges, and I know I had mentioned that for a while I thought about becoming a monk, but when I met my husband and then we adopted kids, like I really feel like I got more lessons. I mean, I'm sure that monks get a lot of lessons too, but family life is just filled with spiritual opportunities -- opportunities to learn about yourself, which is what spiritual practice really is.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:50
It's a beautiful way of putting that: spiritual opportunities.
Jivana Heyman 55:56
Yes, as you know, because you're a householder too, right? So you know, you know how it is.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:03
Yeah, no matter what your family configuration, there's plenty of opportunities.
Jivana Heyman 56:07
Yeah, right. I mean, it could just it could be with your own parents or even friends - anyone. Anyone, your chosen family, doesn't have to be birth family. Anyone that you are involved with in a emotional way offers opportunities to learn about yourself, and that's what spiritual practice is, right? In fact, that's what I loved about the conversation with her, is I feel like we were getting at like what is spiritual practice, and I feel like sometimes we actually kind of divorce yoga from spiritual practice in like the weirdest way. I don't know how we do that, but you know, I mean, like contemporary yoga sometimes feels like it's this exercise, and we lose the fact that really it's about learning how to be with yourself, you know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:54
Yeah spiritual practice... I think this is a quote: "Spiritual practice does not have to be separate from life." But yeah, to your point, the way we've commoditized yoga, it's kind of like I did yoga today. I checked it off. I went to a studio. I put on the outfit. I did it, right, and you check it off. But it's kind of like, well, did it impact what happened before or after that? Like, and it doesn't even have to be the people closest to you. I feel like neighbors, the person driving next to you on the road -- those also can incite some big lessons.
Jivana Heyman 57:28
Yeah, sometimes it's more of those, right? Sometimes more the anonymous interactions that really show you where your head is at. You know, like, are you kind to strangers? Yeah, it's a big one.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:46
I just want to touch on this briefly, but I think at the beginning of the conversation, Indu was talking about a recent conversation she had with her teacher about how modern yoga, you know, it's become sort of a thing of like data gatherers. People are hoarding wisdom, right? It's like collecting as many pieces of knowledge, collecting practices, just as much as possible, without necessarily like, going deep with any of them. And maybe this is kind of my add-on, but that's what I love about Indu and her teaching so much. I feel like she really takes, and I'm doing air quotes, the quote-unquote like, "basic things" that maybe every yoga practitioner has learned, and really like you can go very deep in these lessons with all the knowledge that you already know or practices you've already practiced, and see them in a new light.
Jivana Heyman 58:36
Yeah, that's such an important point. Yoga, or I should say, spiritual practice, isn't about intellectual learning, it's more like unlearning, and it's more about you know how you feel about something than what you think about it. You know, it's kind of going to the like little deeper level and that's what's challenging. She's so incredible. I think she's so humble too. You know, I think that's what always comes through for me from her when I spend time with her is just that she has such a vast knowledge and experience. I mean, talk about wisdom. She's got that wisdom. Wow, but she's so humble. Like she doesn't really - I don't know - you look at the way that most yoga teachers are portrayed right now, who have massive followings or whatever. They're just seen as like being kind of idolized in a way, and I think she's the kind of teacher we should be putting up on a pedestal, if that makes sense. Do you know what I'm saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:46
Yeah, absolutely. I think she sort of puts the teachings above herself as, you know, the teacher arbiter. It's just you know, teachings come first.
Jivana Heyman 59:58
Right. But like, just the amount of wisdom and experience she has is really something. I mean, she wrote a book literally called Yoga. Like she wrote a book on yoga. There's a lot of books on yoga, I realize, but that's such an incredible book. That book, Yoga, and I think what is the subtitle? Ancient Heritage, Tomorrow's Vision. It's such a great overview for people. I don't know if people that aren't familiar with her work - I mean, she does a lot with Ayurveda. She does a lot of work with Mudra, Mantra, Yoga Nidra. But that book really stands out to me because it just offers this incredible introduction in such a really clear way. It's very accessible, actually, and that just shows to me her skill also as a teacher, and of course, again, her humility in the ways that she doesn't come across as this big famous guru when probably she should be.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:00
Jivana's calling to bring back the guru. Although guru is not a bad word, guru is like part of the tradition. It's kind of what people do with that power, right? Yeah. So I just wanted to clarify that.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:12
Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Just the teacher, guru, remover of darkness.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:18
But I love her book on Mudra: The Sacred Secret, and I know she's sharing... yeah, you two talked about that a little. And Soma: 100 Heritage Recipes for Self-Care. For people don't know this. Like there are Ayurvedic recipes in there for like hair care, skin care, how to cool off in the heat. So definitely one to check out.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:36
She always gives me advice when I talk to her. I talk to her a lot, by the way. She always gives me great advice. Whatever's going on with me, she'll tell me what to do. But what was I going to say about the guru? She mentioned it in the conversation we just had. She talked about gurutattva, or about the element, the guru element. And you said, you know, it's the teachings can be that, right? The teachings themselves, and our family and our experiences in the world can be the guru. We don't need to have an actual teacher like that. We can have multiple teachers, but I like to think of the teachings in that regard as my teacher, and also everyone around me, and all the animals and plants around me, all of nature. She talked about that too, nature as the guru, right? God, we talked about so much.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:26
There's also something I do want to bring up because I'm sometimes just in a lot of trainings that I'm helping support in some way, shape, or form -- not as a teacher, but just as support. And, you know, this is kind of along the lines of trust, right, having trust, because I think I see a lot of students in trainings trying to like collect all the wisdom that's coming through in a training, which is substantial, right? Like you're in a training with a great teacher, there's a lot of information. She kind of called it wisdom hoarding, which in some cases definitely is the case. Like, just trying to get as many practices, but then like there's another way to approach that, and also it is less overwhelming, I feel like for students, which is to trust that what's going to land in you, like the important things that you'll need, are going to land and like, be with you, right? And I think that applies to not only yoga teacher trainings or even like going to a museum. Like personally speaking, I used to be very like I have to read every single little tiny caption, and then I used to stand there and reread until I would recall. And then I don't know, maybe six years ago, I was going to so many museums every time I was traveling; I was like, you know, I'm just going to try this, not be so overwhelmed, and just read what interests me. And I always walked away with like more of an understanding of a few things rather than being overwhelmed by all of it.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:46
Yeah, yeah, that's great. I mean, I feel that in a similar way with the yoga teachers that I train, I feel like sometimes there's a tension around getting enough information to feel like they're good enough to teach, and I think it comes from a really good place, mostly, of people wanting to do a good job. You know, wanting to be of service, and especially in the Accessible Yoga world, I think, you know, the teachers that I train, I just see how much service they're doing in the world or wanting to do; they don't want to hurt anybody, they don't want to cause harm, they want to cause benefit to people -- and it's beautiful. So I also see it coming from a really positive place too, like of just wanting to be careful. But you can easily cross a line to go from just being careful to having imposter syndrome or feeling like I'm not good enough because I don't have all the information. And I talk about this, even remember in my last book, The Teacher's Guide to Accessible Yoga, I talk about this a bit because I think there's a tendency when a teacher starts teaching Accessible Yoga type classes where you have a real range of abilities in the group - maybe you have people who are disabled, or you have older folks - there can be this kind of fear that I need to know everything, and that I might hurt somebody, and so I need more information, more training. And that's okay to get more training - you can keep going, you can become a yoga therapist, you could become a physical therapist, you could become a doctor. You know, you can keep going - like, that's great. But also at some point, I think it's okay to think of it differently. Kind of like you're saying, I think, which is to shift your mindset and realize that I have some skills, I know how to teach yoga, and I don't know what's happening in everyone's body and mind -- in fact, I can't know. There's no way for me to know what is happening in my students, and so what I could do instead is shift the way I teach and actually try to give the power back to the student to have them make choices around what they're doing, rather than have it be top-down, like the way that we're trained in school as children, like the teacher knows and they're teaching the students. That's not really how I think a yoga class should be taught, and I think it's not so much about giving them wisdom or giving them information, but rather teaching them things and then encouraging them to explore, and I think the same thing can be true with a teacher training when you're getting overwhelmed with like, drinking from a water hose or what is it called, drinking from a fire hose. Do you know that expression?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:06:32
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 1:06:33
You can't do that, it's like, too much. So trainings can feel that way to me. That's also why I like to do trainings slower, usually. I like the trainings when I offer them online, and we only do a couple hours each session. I also love being in person. We do more intensive weekends - just because of scheduling, I kind of have to do it more intensively, and so it's fun to be together. But I see people's eyes get a little glazed over. I was lecturing somewhere recently. I think it was like 10 hours one day of teaching, which is too much for me. But I was going on for 10 hours, and I just looked around. I thought, this is not working. This is too long a day. Like you know, it just there's no more room in their brains. I mean, they were trying. It was very sweet, but after 10 hours of listening to someone lecture, it's just too much. Anyway, I don't know if that's useful.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:07:24
Definitely useful. I love this conversation with Indu, and I actually have a question for you, if you have time to answer a question. This is kind of based on your conversation. You were talking about, you know, that spiritual practice, the purpose and intention of it is to remove suffering from our lives, but in that there's a lot of discomfort. So I'm wondering, how do you make the discomfort of a spiritual path accessible?
Jivana Heyman 1:07:51
Wow, that's a good question.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:07:52
You know, and while you're thinking, to be clear, by discomfort I don't mean anything that's like doing you or anyone around you harm, just to clarify for that.
Jivana Heyman 1:08:03
But are you saying? I just want to understand more about the question that you're asking.Are you saying that... so there'syou know, there's suffering that occurs in life, and we look to spiritual practice to soothe that discomfort. But there's also discomfort that actually comes from practice itself, you know. Is that what you're talking about?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:24
I think well, spiritual practice often asks us to like look at our stuff, right? Or maybe even if it's not asking, it's kind of like an inevitable byproduct of the space that you're creating. Like your stuff rises to the surface, and I think Indu referenced it, which made me smile as like mental or emotional sweating, right? (Awesome, yeah. Wow.) Which was amazing, and so that's what I mean. I mean, of course, the physical aspect too. Sometimes to get a little stronger, there's a slight discomfort - not harm, not injury, but like the discomfort.
Jivana Heyman 1:08:57
I love that question because I mean I've been writing about it in the book, and I know we've been talking about the my new book for a while in this podcast series, but I'm trying to find a way to to talk about that in the context of yoga meditation and explain how - I honestly was just editing a section talking about the fact that - when you start meditating, I think, what happens for many people, is when they start meditating, they think this is making things worse. Like often, early meditators or beginning meditators feel like, wait, meditation is making my mind more busy. I'm feeling more emotional. Like, I'm feeling worse and not better. I think that's kind of the same thing. It's like the awareness of it can feel worse, but there's a very fine line here. I just the reason I'm hesitating so much in answering you is because I keep thinking about trauma-informed teaching, and I think there's a really fine line between asking students or expecting students to feel their feelings and go through the pain in order to get to the other side, versus re-triggering people. And I just want to be thoughtful about that. And when I think about this topic of like, is spiritual practice going to cause pain and suffering, or make you experience your pain and suffering more than you already are, I just want to be really sensitive about people who have trauma because I think we could do real harm to them by triggering them. Like, my goal is to never trigger my students. I don't want to trigger people's trauma. I'm not a trauma specialist, that is not my focus. If someone wants to work on their trauma directly, I think they need to have support of a professional. And I'm a yoga teacher and a yoga therapist, and I can help them on some level. But I'm not interested in psychoanalyzing them or whatever, you know what I mean, or putting them through that kind of painful process of addressing their trauma. I think it happens naturally through practice, but I actually would generally back off and ask people to do less if they start to feel overwhelmed, and I would say this for anyone listening: if you start to feel overwhelmed in your practice that you can't deal with it, like it's an overwhelming amount of emotion coming through, it's okay to back off. Like there's no reason to push through that, and I think it's a kind of straining, just like you would, as you mentioned, in asana. I think yeah, there's a discomfort in asana potentially, but also there's injury that happens in asana when you push too hard and I think, emotionally, we can injure ourselves by re-triggering ourselves or pushing too hard without proper support. So, in the book I'm working on, trying to figure out ways to get people to meditate safely with proper support, and I mentioned a few times in the book that it's okay to get help. Like if you find that you start to meditate and stuff comes up, like really painful memories or emotions that you don't know how to handle, it's not just okay, but it's recommended that you actually find someone to talk to about it. Like, find a therapist to discuss that with. Maybe a meditation teacher, but I would say preferably a professional who knows how to deal with emotions and psychology. I think that's essential. And together, yoga and psychology together are such a beautiful combination. And it's not right for everyone, but it can be really helpful for a lot of people. So I don't know. I just I hope... that's probably not the answer you wanted.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:12:49
No, I mean I was curious for your thoughts because it is a fine balance, right? And I think you do a good job in the book of... just to back up, you offer prompts and a few practices and journaling exercises, right? And I feel like you very gently ask people to just notice, right? Like, I don't think you're asking people to go deep in it, but I think it's fair to ask, you know - and like yoga is an awareness practice as well - so noticing what comes up. I think that's a gentle prompt that you offer that without like unnecessarily asking people to go deeper than they're ready to go.
Jivana Heyman 1:13:26
Yeah, and also, you know, the first teaching of yoga is ahimsa, you know, non-harm, and that includes not harming yourself with your practice. So I just want to say - I hate to say shouldn't, but I'm going to say it - we shouldn't be using spiritual practice to cause ourselves harm. And I know it sounds weird to say that, but I think it happens. I think sometimes that we, what is it called, self-flagellation? You know what I mean? Like we sometimes beat ourselves up, thinking we're not good enough, and that's why we do spiritual practice, and that's not right. I don't think that's the right approach either. Yoga is not there to make you better, you know, or to even even this idea of like, transformation - like it's going to transform you into something else. It's actually the opposite, you know, what yoga would do, I think, is make you feel at home with yourself and and show you that you are enough already and that you have everything you need and that you're fine and that's a very different thing than becoming and whipping yourself into shape, which I think is how a lot of yoga is taught, like you know, thisvery militaristic thing that if I do that, then I'll be okay. Then I'll be a good person. Then I'll be worthy of calling myself a yoga practitioner or yoga teacher if I can do these asanas and if I can sit in meditation for this long -- otherwise, I'm a fake, and I'm not worthy, and I'm an imposter. And I think that'sa misunderstanding. It's like, you know - okay, this might not be that helpful - but the image that's coming to my mind is like a snow globe, and you know, if you shake a snow globe, and then it's all the snowflakes, or you can't see anything, and then that settles, and all of a sudden, there's the whatever is inside you can see. And that's what we're doing - we're just allowing things to settle, and that could cause discomfort. You might see something that you don't want to see, but that's different than beating yourself up. You know, letting things settle. I can't remember who said this, but there was something... I heard someone talking about this in a different way. They were talking about coming home to yourself, and he was saying that someone who has trauma, like especially someone who is marginalized, like maybe they've experienced racism or homophobia - and I could say, as a queer person, I get this piece - but maybe, you know, like trans people right now feeling oppressed in this country, or immigrants feeling oppressed - I mean, there's so many communities that are actively being oppressed - and I think that if that's what's happening with you, if you're actively being oppressed from society, it's really hard to come back to yourself. Those external messages make it painful to be with yourself sometimes because there may be a lot of emotion there and a lot of pain. And I guess I just want to say that if that's the situation, if you're a victim, right, and maybe you're the victim of something else as abuse or sexual violence, how do you come back to yourself safely with the support of yoga rather than use yoga as just another form of oppression? That's the question I have for you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:17:02
Beyond my purview.
Jivana Heyman 1:17:05
Okay.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:17:06
But I mean, I I also think that's why teachers maybe have the responsibility. Or I mean, this isn't the right wording, but you know, like teaching discernment and like you know helping students build trust in themselves, right? Like little by little, titrating that feels like you know it doesn't have to be this big leap every class, every month, every year, right? It's just how do you create those spaces, or how do you create a practice that helps people feel maybe just like a millimeter with themselves or even just consider it.
Jivana Heyman 1:17:46
Exactly, and I think offer spiritual practice as a sanctuary for people, not as a discipline. And I do talk about self-discipline in the book a bit, but I think it's still self-discipline is not external discipline. Self-discipline is chosen, is making choices that you know will be good for yourself. But a sanctuary is a place you can go that feels welcoming and comfortable and soothing, where you can relax and take a breath, you know, and exhale, and think, "Oh, wow, I'm home." Rather than I'm pretending to be someone else. "I'm pretending to be a yoga practitioner right now." "I'm pretending to be a yoga teacher right now." I mean, that's kind of how my mind tends to work. I don't want to be criticizing myself, but I mean, there's a lot of times where I feel like an imposter, and I'm projecting what I think I'm supposed to be doing, what people think I should be saying versus what I'm actually feeling or what I really think. Again, I don't know. This is kind of a big topic. I guess I should stop because I could go on about it. It's just so interesting to me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:19:01
No, I mean I think it's a good place to close because it kind of goes back to your conversation with Indu, and that not everyone experiences every practice or every class in the same way.
Jivana Heyman 1:19:10
And also, I think what Indu and I spoke about, which is that life brings the lessons you need. Like, you don't have to look for more. You know, like don't have to look for more pain. It's just there. The perfect lesson for you, the exact thing that you need to learn, is right in front of you, right? Or it's already happening now in you. It's not like you have to go find that. You don't have to go trek somewhere to find yourself, necessarily. You can just be where you are and learn lessons about yourself. And I hope that, you know, I guess I hope I'm being positive though in saying that - you are being maybe more positive than me - but I guess I want to end with a positive message that, I mean, yoga does offer that potential place for us. Not potential -- yoga offers it. Yoga offers that sanctuary because it teaches us how to be with ourselves comfortably, and I just know that's there for everyone. So I have I have incredible faith in yoga. Like, my faith is in yoga and these teachings, and so that gives me hope, gives me faith, and I trust yoga will be there for me, even when I don't trust myself. But I hope that other people feel that too. And it doesn't have to be yoga, but whatever spiritual practice you have can be that place for you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:20:44
Yeah, may it be for everyone.
Jivana Heyman 1:20:45
Okay. Thanks for that great question, Deanna. And thanks, Indu, for talking to me again. I mean, I just really appreciate you and everything you do. Thank you, Deanna, for her being here with me and talking with me, and thanks everyone for listening, and I hope you'll join us again soon. All right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:21:06
Yeah. Look forward to next time. Thanks, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 1:21:08
Thank you. Okay. Bye.
Jivana Heyman 1:21:19
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement, to learn, to answer each other's questions, and to practice together. It's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need, and I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Souza leads the other. And it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org. There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
