Jivana Heyman 0:17
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land. And I hope you're well. Thanks for joining me today. I'm excited about this conversation. I got to talk to my good friend, Anjali Rao. I wanted to invite her back to talk about her book. It's been out for about a year now. Her book is called Yoga as Embodied Resistance. It's such a great book. If you haven't read it already, I hope you will. I was curious what the impact has been, you know, what the reactions have been from the yoga world. It's such an interesting and important contribution that she's made. And we also get to talk a little bit about my upcoming book, which is going to be released soon, on yoga meditation. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Anjali Rao.
Jivana Heyman 1:19
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Jivana Heyman 2:16
Hey, Anjali, how are you?
Jivana Heyman 2:17
Hi, Jivana. So good to be here and having this conversation with you feels like a long time.
Jivana Heyman 2:23
Yeah, well, I mean, I talked to you recently, but not on a podcast. So I know we used to do this pretty regularly back, I don't even know when that was.
Jivana Heyman 2:33
A long time ago.
Jivana Heyman 2:34
Yeah. But anyway, just how are you doing? Do you want to share anything?
Jivana Heyman 2:38
I'm doing good. I just came back from India - had to do some caregiving support for my mother, and so I'm kind of jet lagged. I just came back from North Carolina too, so I don't know which time zone my body's at. But today I'm feeling good because I actually slept for a few hours straight, so that's all.
Jivana Heyman 3:02
Yeah, jet lag is really something. I just got back from London a few weeks ago, and it took me a couple weeks to recover. So I feel you.
Jivana Heyman 3:16
Yeah the older we get the harder it is, right?
Jivana Heyman 3:21
Exactly, exactly. Although, you know, I feel like it's a real privilege to travel, you know, and especially to teach. Like, well, you were in North Carolina teaching, right? So, isn't it amazing to get to do that?
Jivana Heyman 3:34
It is. I don't get to do it very often, but whenever I do, I really enjoy it. I enjoy meeting people and being in actual physical space and seeing everybody's non-verbal reaction while we are talking and teaching, you know, sharing. It's really so important and such a gift, really. So I'm really excited and, you know, like you said, grateful to be doing that.
Jivana Heyman 3:57
Yeah, it's pretty incredible. I actually I wanted to talk to you a bit about your book because it's been a year, I think, right, since your book came out.
Jivana Heyman 4:05
Yeah, it has been... it will be a year next week, so October 14th, I think, was the publishing date. So, I'm so grateful that the book has been out into the world and that people have received it the way they have, and I'm happy to talk more about it. I don't think I anticipated any of this reaction and the responses that I did get about it. Like people have just shared so vulnerably about it, especially people who are South Asians, who have caste privilege who are in yoga spaces, who have questioned that for a long time, and then they looked at this book as something that has put words to some internalized, not only caste, but also patriarchy that we not really named in yoga spaces and our texts and practices. So I think the book has definitely touched many people. So I'm really very grateful for all those reactions and responses, especially from South Asians.
Jivana Heyman 5:22
Yeah, I mean, I think your book has had a huge impact. You know, because there's a lot of yoga books that get published every year, and I just don't think most have any impact. I mean, maybe a little bit. You know, people might enjoy it, but it feels like your book has shifted the conversation, actually, within yoga. At least within the community I'm part of. I hear it referenced - maybe just because I'm referencing it all the time, I don't know - but it feels like it comes up all the time. And I don't think there's really anything like it out there. And I told you, you know, while you're writing it, same thing. Like there's just nothing like it out there, you know. In fact, you know, I was thinking about when I first met you, that article you wrote about women in yoga history.
Jivana Heyman 6:04
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 6:05
And that's what made me drawn to you because I remember reading that article and just being so excited that you were doing the work, that you were just like curious and asking questions, and then researching. Like that's the part of you that I think is really unusual because I'm not really into history. Like, that's not how my mind works. I'm much more into application and practice and teaching. And you have this ability to kind of go back and - I don't know what you do: reading, studying, researching.
Jivana Heyman 6:35
Nerding! Nerding is what like. [laughs] I called you into space even when I was in North Carolina, that how you sort of encouraged me to write this book, you know, and you were like, you always had that trust in me that I could write a book, and even when I did not look at it myself that way. So thank you, and without you, I don't think the book would have even come into being. So I really appreciate all your support. You were one of the first few people I sent the manuscript to for your feedback, and also the blurb which is there on the back of the book. So your support has been just invaluable in this whole process, so I appreciate that. Because a lot of the things that I say in the book is extremely, is very political, is very now. And one has to be really sure about so many things that are controversial in terms of history and in yoga. So we need a community to be able to talk and be courageous about it. And you're a big part of that community for me.
Jivana Heyman 8:02
Thank you. I feel like, and I probably have said this before, but I feel like what you're doing is taking a look back and finding kind of like traces of a lot of the really interesting pieces of yoga that have been lost and that are so important for us, particularly around caste gender, and I think is a focus of that book. But I feel like there's something so powerful about seeing yourself reflected in history, and I think that contemporary yoga has, you know, kind of whitewashed or whatever word you want to use, like the history of yoga. It's like we only see one version of that history of yoga. And to me, it's so important to be able to say that there's so much more there. It's so complex, and I think we can find threads of so many of the really beautiful things that are happening. The diversity of practice - not just diversity - but actually like allowing people to see themselves represented in the history of yoga, rather than think that they're changing it now or like we're adapting yoga. Do you know what I mean? There's this kind of sense that, but is that true? It's like there are non-binary people in the history of yoga, right? Like that's not something new, and I think just to talk about that is so important, and not only for representation purposes, but for individual practitioners to see themselves reflected there, to see that they've been part of history for a long time, and that maybe there were conscious or unconscious efforts to remove us, you know, remove the outsiders. I think it's really that outsider perspective, maybe.
Jivana Heyman 9:45
Yeah. No, I think one of the things that I wanted to kind of highlight in this is not just these exceptional, you know so-called, exceptional women in yoga history, which that was my initial question, but then I quickly realized that I'm not asking the bigger question, which is how is gender negotiated and expressed in yoga history. And yoga history is a smaller part, or rather a bigger part, depending on how you look at it, of the Indic history and religious history and all. So I had to kind of change, or rather, reframe my question to how is gender navigated, and it's a it's a complex question, and that's why caste comes in because gender is expressed and navigated, sexuality is expressed and navigated and experienced depending upon one's positionality. And one of the other things that I want to kind of mention here is that what we call as homogenization of philosophy and homogenization of yoga, homogenization of history has happened for centuries, and even more so now with capitalism, where people really want everything in like one slideshow or one, I don't know, Instagram post. So history is far more complex than that, and I think we as a human family race, whatever you want to call it, are increasingly losing our ability to deal with complexity. So that was a part of my goal and objective is to really hold each other accountable in the ways in which we deal with complexity and paradoxes, and hopefully I have kind of invited folks who read the book to delve more into complexity and paradoxes.
Jivana Heyman 11:44
And what's next for you?
Jivana Heyman 11:47
Well, as you know, I'm doing my PhD. I'm in my third year.
Jivana Heyman 11:53
How many years do you have? I mean, is it?
Jivana Heyman 11:56
Well, I mean, right now I'm in the last sort of semester of what we call as like, foundational courses, and then we have one more year of like, what are called as comprehensive exams, where you choose like, two subjects and then you really get deeper into that. And then we have the dissertation process, so I have at least another two and a half years. I'm just beginning to look at the dissertation topic, not the dissertation question yet. I definitely will have more about yoga, though I kind of got away from that for a while. But then I realized that I've already done so much work and research, and that's where my time and energy has already been invested in it, and my interest has been invested in it. So it doesn't make sense for me to kind of go away from that completely. So it will definitely be about yoga history. It will be definitely about, of course, looking at all the threads of caste and gender and all of that. My exact topic, I'm still kind of discerning. Hopefully, by the end of this semester. I'm doing an independent study with my advisor, and then hopefully that'll get me closer to the topics and the questions that I want to look at.
Jivana Heyman 13:19
But I mean, is it fair to say there'll be more books?
Jivana Heyman 13:22
Oh gosh, I think yeah, one has to be really ridiculously - I don't know - what to write. I mean, you have written two and you're writing a third one.
Jivana Heyman 13:35
This is my fourth! I've written three. This is my fourth one.
Jivana Heyman 13:39
Exactly. So you... I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know why we write books.
Jivana Heyman 13:44
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 13:45
So no, I don't know yet about the book part of it. But definitely, I want to do something which feels interesting and important in shifting understanding and culture in some way.
Jivana Heyman 13:58
Yeah. Well, what about books? I'm curious what you think about it. Like writing a book these days, like just the idea of writing a yoga book, or you know, like in these times - does it seem like a useful activity?
Jivana Heyman 14:14
I think it's important for us to know why we are writing, what we are writing, like what is the end goal of it, or rather, who does it serve? That's always in the forefront of my mind. Like, is this book serving a need in the world? Because there are so many books that people haven't read. I would rather, you know, I also want to think about: Is this worth the time and energy for a person and the money that they're going to invest in that book to be able to say okay I've written something? So, and in the age of, you know, so called artificial intelligence or whatever I think embodied knowledge is important -- it will be even more important. I honestly am worried about where we are going to go from here, where we are, I think we all should be concerned about about all these things and how that's is going to change our, not only our nervous systems but our relationships with each other, our dynamics of power. It's going to shift, and I'm kind of concerned for our future generations and any knowledge systems will be - and all knowledge systems are already impacted by these things, by AI and you know all the things. So, if I write another book, then I hope to be able to, you know, I don't know, just somehow support and question and create a community of people who can confront these issues of disembodiment and this mass scale thievery that is happening in terms of our knowledge systems. You know who's benefiting from that? It's not you and me who are authors or teachers who are benefiting from that. So it's some corporate entity sitting somewhere, and I'm worried about that. I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 16:16
Yeah, yeah. My some of my books have been used to train AI without my permission, and so I'm part of a class action lawsuit happening against Anthropic right now, that's already been settled mostly, and they're going to give us some payment - but it's not a lot of money, and I don't think it's a question of money. To me, it's a question of ethics, you know, of like going and doing that without the permission of the authors feels to me just so bizarre. Like I just can't imagine how a company can continue to function having been so unethical to just steal the intellectual property of literally millions of people and their books and then you make a living by selling that back to people. It feels like, you know, we're basically.... I mean, I get that there are positive applications of AI, and I'm not totally against it. I just think the stealing of knowledge, that piece, I'm stuck on that. You know, I just don't see how you can create an ethical business model or anything when it begins with stealing all of this.
Jivana Heyman 17:28
I don't. I don't see anything positive about AI. I'm sorry.
Jivana Heyman 17:33
Well, I'm trying to be open-minded. You know, I potentially think there are some benefits to it. I do. I don't know what they are, but I imagine... I'm trying to be open-minded. You're not! [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 17:47
No, I feel from whatever we have witnessed in terms of technology, you know. Yes, of course, technology has helped people to get closer to each other in some way, and then it has also driven us apart in some ways. It has also created so many inequities in the world of access to resources. I don't know what it's going to mean for - I mean, we know what it's going to mean for the Earth itself because it's massively taking away from the water, you know, resources and stuff. So I don't know. I think it's probably going to increase inequities based on historical data of like how technology has impacted the world. So I don't know yet, and I don't know whether... I don't know how education system is going to be disrupted. I think it's already disrupted the education system. I know many of the younger ones because I'm a parent to two young ones who are in college and who have been just out of college, many people don't want to study in a traditional college university system because they don't really see the need for it. They're like, it's all going to be disrupted. Everybody's going to get all kinds of information, the verified or non-verified -- that is a whole another issue. But people can get information, bookloads of information with just a click. And people are writing using AI. People are doing all so-called, you know, I don't even want to call it art, but art using AI. So it's just people are writing entire novels and movies using AI. So I just worry about where this is going to go in terms of our cognitive abilities. There is something to be said for everybody struggling through figuring out problems to solutions, like even the small ones, like even just you and me now, we are so used to our maps on the phone, you know, to get us somewhere, like our navigational maps to get us somewhere, right? 20 years ago, we had to figure out how to read a map, and then that was a whole part of the brain that that's no longer used now. So I don't know. It's actually quite a depressing topic to think about at all in terms of AI.
Jivana Heyman 20:06
Well, in yoga books, I think it's a problem. Like I have, yeah, like my experience... There was an article, and I can link to it in the show notes. I can't remember who wrote it, but it was an article about how, you know, the top yoga books on Amazon are almost all AI, and most of them are chair yoga, ironically. So there's this whole thing where there's chair yoga AI books. There's often not even an author name on there, and I know that that those books were trained from mine and other chair yoga books. But that's basically what my books are: is chair yoga. You know, like my first book, Accessible Yoga, was used to train AI, and then they create these books, and so it's like, and then like people are getting that book. I haven't read them. I don't want to buy them, but it's like I can't even imagine what the content is like. You know, like what are people learning in the context of yoga?
Jivana Heyman 21:03
Yeah. I mean, but honestly, we I did not read the whole article, but somebody was sharing it in another context, how where we are going is actually just a part of the trajectory which always was, like this increase. We are already going there, and now it's just going to get accelerated. This thing of like taking things from other sources without giving attribution, right? You know, it's there in the yoga world anyway, right? I mean, so I think it's just going to get accelerated.
Jivana Heyman 21:35
But also colonization, right? I mean, it's like stealing resources from people to just build wealth. I mean, it's just a continuation of that. That is true. So I think that's where we need to do some serious reflection. Look at the people that are running these companies that are basically just stealing resources to make a lot of money. And I mean, for I don't know who? People who own stock, I guess I'm not sure who's benefiting, but even with that, I know there's some benefits somewhere. I'm trying to be open-minded. I just do feel concerned for the yoga world, in particular. I think that the information people are getting is going to be kind of like all mushed together the way AI does. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not. I think we still need human teachers and human writers. I've been thinking about maybe for my next book of just doing some basic chair yoga book to just combat the AI ones. Just show, here's one that's written by a human, you know?
Jivana Heyman 22:33
Yeah, I mean I don't know about another book, but we definitely have to combat in some way. We have to come together to do this, and I don't know whether we have enough traction, honestly. I think people are still - I don't know whether people are attuned to the urgency of where we are. I don't know. Let's see. I don't know where it's going to go -- in four - five years, I have no idea what the world is going to look like.
Jivana Heyman 23:02
Well, yeah, we never know, you know. And I don't think I could have imagined this when I was younger. You know, the world that my children are inheriting is very different. You know, hopefully people will wake up to that a little bit. I don't know. I'm trying to be positive. I think I think yoga can help, actually. I think that, you know, self-awareness helps, you know, through these practices, I think there is a possibility. You don't!
Jivana Heyman 23:30
I don't know. I'm very cynical, maybe, but I don't know. I don't know whether those are... Yes, yes, self-awareness helps, but I also don't know whether we have it in us yet to come back, like institutional and systemic stealing, because we already see that in our own spaces in such everyday ways that we are not even like... We don't even have it in us to actually just challenge people who are stealing, even people who we know, right? So leave alone - I mean, there is self awareness, but where is that actually stopping anything, right? I mean, we have people who have taken books, who have taken like concepts -- people who we know. And when we are not able to challenge that, because manipulation is a thing, and in the world of yoga, because everything is so... There is not a single answer. There are multiple ways of like, saying things. One can actually just take a small thing and change it, but the idea of something is from somebody else, and there is no attribution to that. I mean, that has happened to me. That has happened to you. That has happened to so many people. So I'm saying, if we don't have it within us to have that code of ethics, holding somebody accountable like a human person, leave alone like a system which is trillions of dollars into the investment of some platforms. So I don't know. You know, as a friend, that I got out of the yoga world because I just couldn't combat it. I just didn't know how to work through a system that condones stealing because of the celebritification of yoga teachers. If we cannot combat capitalism and unethical behavior within our own communities, how are we going to combat something which is not even a part of the yoga community in this huge mass scale way, right? So, I'm skeptical. I have dipped my toe back into the yoga world because I'm really genuinely interested as a researcher, as a practitioner, somewhat, and as a scholar. But I don't know whether I can be a big part of... I don't know whether I would call myself right now.... You know, I don't know which part of the yoga community that I belong to, honestly. So I don't know yet.
Jivana Heyman 26:09
I don't know if you have to belong anywhere. I mean, I think the yoga community needs your voice, needs critics and people questioning. I don't think following along with any group is useful. I think you have an important role as part of the yoga community as a critic or as a questioner. That's what yoga is. I mean, to me, it's like questioning who we are and what we're doing all the time. I mean, that's what it is for me, and I just think that you bring that. You know, skepticism is essential, to me, in yoga practice.
Jivana Heyman 26:51
It is. You're absolutely right, and you're right that critics are important. Critical thinking is important, and that's a big part of the work that I hope to continue to bring out into the world, or at least co-create a community that can be critically thinking together, not only about all the things that are happening within the yoga spaces, but outside yoga spaces and how those two are related. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 27:18
Yeah, because I think that you give other people permission to question and criticize, and I think that's important. I think a lot of things that we just assume are yoga and are necessary in yoga are not. Do you know what I mean? Like I think a lot of it is questionable, and I think that's important because it makes it more accessible, more available, and you know, personal. Like people can find their own way, because the teachings are so complex. You know, they can find the path that works for them, I hope. And I still have faith in these teachings. I think that they are all we have, like spiritual teachings. I mean, not just yoga, but I think spiritual teachings are the only hope, I think, for humanity, I feel very committed to that idea. I think yoga offers that in such a beautiful way. That's why my new book... I mean, that's what I'm trying to do is give people a practice, because I just think through contemporary yoga, we've lost the kind of inner part, the inner questioning part of yoga that is at the heart of it for me. And I think if we just focus on externals, like on asana - which, asana is awesome - but if that's your only practice, I think it doesn't necessarily take you to that place where you start questioning your own mind.
Jivana Heyman 28:44
Yeah, no, I totally agree. I do think that contemplative practices are important. Embodiment practices are important. I do think both are a part of the overall, you know, many of the yoga traditions. So, I'm not saying anything that is taking away from practicing yoga. I'm saying a part of what we have to question is our own complicitness about participating in, not only systems that condone appropriations of various kinds, or you know, or not attributing scholarship or concepts to specific sources. My lens is more about like looking at yoga as a system, because I think that it's a very good way of looking at the larger world, you know. Because yoga is a part of so many different places, right? I mean, we practice yoga in our homes, we practice yoga in schools, in churches, in temples, in, you know, all over -- and in gyms and corporate centers, like so in that sense, I feel like yoga is a great way of looking and analyzing and understanding and studying the power dynamics that goes through all of these various contexts. So for me that is very interesting, and I feel like it has some sort of resonance as a part of study.
Jivana Heyman 30:36
And it seems to me like for it to be effective, even though yoga is pervasive. I mean, it's being practiced everywhere, like you said. But I'm concerned that it hasn't had the impact it could have if it was taught as a more reflective, more self-inquiry. I think something's been taken out to me, and I just worry about that because I think it could have a transformational effect in terms of changing this kind of status quo and the way that we continually operate if people were questioning themselves.
Jivana Heyman 31:13
Yeah, I mean self-inquiry is a big part of it, but yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree.
Jivana Heyman 31:19
We agree on something, which is weird! No, I always agree with you in the end. You always convince me.
Jivana Heyman 31:26
[laughs] Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 31:29
Maybe because you're a Virgo.
Jivana Heyman 31:31
There you go! [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 31:35
I know that was kind of heavy.
Jivana Heyman 31:37
Tell me more about the book that you are writing, then.
Jivana Heyman 31:40
Well, actually, I think that we just kind of touched on the goal, because I mean, you you mentioned earlier that if you're writing a yoga book, that you need to have a purpose, and I just would say that my purpose with this book was, and is, to try to encourage people that - especially people who have a yoga practice - to just be using it in a reflective way, to like turn inside and reflect through meditation or some meditative practice. And I just love that yoga offers so much diversity of options in terms of how to do that, and I think it's really unusual and special in that way regarding other spiritual traditions that are much more... To me, other spirit traditions tend to offer one way, you know, to do that. Like here's how you go inward. Here's how you meditate. And yoga is like, so many options. And I just don't feel like we've been having that conversation enough. Just like the reflective self-inquiry, meditative practice of yoga and how amazing all these different potential paths are towards that, and how much you can personalize them within the yoga tradition. So that's kind of, I guess, the goal of the practice. I just meet so many yoga teachers, you know, that's what I do. I train yoga teachers and I meet hundreds of them every year, and I'm shocked how few of them are meditating, actually. And I don't mean meditating like sitting cross-legged, silent meditation, but just consciously doing some meditative practice, some self-reflection or inward work. It kind of blows my mind because to me that's the the heart of it, and I don't mean to criticize them, but I'm just I think it's more of the culture, the contemporary yoga culture, maybe.
Jivana Heyman 33:31
I think it's not only contemporary yoga culture, but contemporary capitalistic system that we are on because we have to do so many things. We are constantly being, you know, we just have to make sure we have... If you're a parent, make sure our children are okay. Make sure we are working full time. You know, we have to put food on the table. We have to cook. We're doing so many different things without any help, without any community support. You know, I just came back from India, and I say this because my, you know this, my mom is having so many health issues, and I now looking at the medical system in India, and I'm comparing it to the medical system here in the U.S. And I don't think I would have ever said this out loud like one year ago or whatever, but I do think that in some ways there is some sense of some efficiency here than there, to some extent. I mean, of course there is inequities of access to care. At the same time, so many times when I go, when I take my mom to the hospital or whatever, there is still care and concern from the larger community, like my extended family, and neighbors, you know, friends and stuff. That piece is missing here, where we are dealing with so many things. It's such an individualistic, focused culture. We don't know our neighbors. We don't know our immediate surrounding, you know, our community. So I do think that sort of individualism of the U.S. has made us not pay attention to all the things that you're mentioning, like meditation and self-reflection and inquiry. Who has the time?
Jivana Heyman 35:22
Yeah, I know, who has the time? I know, and I don't know if it's even a lot of time. I mean, I think it's more like, do you even have the tools? Like, I'm not sure if people do. If yoga teachers, if you're learning at a studio and through some kind of amalgamation of traditions, you know, I don't know if you've been given the tools. If seated silent meditation doesn't work for you, or even if it does, like, do you know what you're doing? Like, do you have some practice that you can do that's connected to yoga in some way? I don't know. You're one of the very few people who've actually read the book, so you tell me if you think that's fair. I don't know. I hope that comes through. I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 36:03
Yes, I do think - I mean I have read your manuscript - and I do think it is an important tool that you are offering to your readers about how to make meditation accessible or how meditation can be accessible. I particularly think that your experience in teaching people who have neurodivergent experiences or people with disabilities and all of that, that those things will help because honestly, most of us who are living now in this world, I do think that is something that we don't have lots of attention span. That is how the world has become. We are so used to social media stuff. So, how do we sit for a long time? And so many of us who have trauma, sitting for a long time is not an easy thing to do, and so I think you offer ways into how that can be made less intimidating.
Jivana Heyman 37:10
Yeah, yeah, because I think it's it's interesting, you brought up a good point around focus and concentration, because I think that's really the heart of yoga meditation practices, you know, is that some kind of focusing in some way. Attention, you know, getting your attention on something in particular. It's so hard to do, you know. I interviewed Tracee Stanley recently about her new book, and she was talking about that about pratyahara, you know, and how that's the most important practice today. And I think she's right in a sense because it's like social media and media in general pulling us out, using our attention. I think we've lost control of our attention; it's being directed for us, and I think it's quite a powerful thing to take that back. And I do think that yoga practices can offer that, especially the meditative ones. I think they offer a way to take your attention back in a conscious way, and it doesn't have to be a long time. I don't think because you said a long time, but I think it can be very brief, but powerful to have a minute of meditation or a few minutes where you're choosing to focus on something - on yourself, basically. I mean, it's really about, to be honest, it's choosing yourself. Like when life is so busy and you're doing everything for everyone, or maybe you have some other, yeah, trauma, like you said, or a disability, or you're just exhausted. I think choosing yourself can be the hardest thing to do. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 38:39
Yeah. No, I'm excited for you, and I hope that book serves all the people who read it.
Jivana Heyman 38:47
I hope so too. Thank you. Thanks for reading and your feedback was great, which I've already integrated, by the way - like a lot of your comments, you helped me a lot. So thank you for that. And yeah, I mean, I'll be talking about it more on the podcast as it gets ready to be released soon. I mean, that's the thing. You know, I'm self-publishing, so it's going to come out really soon. You know, when you use a traditional publisher, so you have like a deadline, and then you can't edit after that. The problem with self-publishing is I can continue to edit really up until the end, which is quite dangerous.
Jivana Heyman 39:18
It is. I remember I went back to my publisher because I wanted to add like a whole section on something, and she's like, "It's too late." I was like, "Oh, darn!" you know. So, I know the temptation to always kind of change and add would always be there.
Jivana Heyman 39:34
I mean, I shouldn't say this because I don't want this to be reality for myself. But you could even, after publishing, self-publishing, you could even revise. You could even put up a new edition within a couple days, and like if...
Jivana Heyman 39:46
If you're doing a self-publishing?
Jivana Heyman 39:48
Yeah, you can just constantly change, which is so dangerous. I mean, I don't think it's fair to do that because then you have different versions out there in the world. I haven't done that, and I don't plan to. But I'm just saying, like, I guess if there is a big mistake, for example, or an error, you could correct that and pretty easily. Self-publishing is unbelievably easy in some ways, but also incredibly challenging in others.
Jivana Heyman 40:15
Yeah, I can imagine. I don't know whether I would ever want to do self-publishing. I feel it's too challenging, and more than anything else, I think having a publisher keeps me accountable to doing it at a certain time. Because if left to me, I probably would be like - it would take me 100 years. Yeah, I would always want to change, and I would always correct an add and stuff like that.
Jivana Heyman 40:38
Surprisingly, I'm actually a very disciplined person. Like I really don't have that problem. I create deadlines for myself all the time. I have no problem with that. I also have an amazing team, and so the only reason I can do it is that I have great support staff who make it possible for me to do these things, including self-publish a book. Because, I did talk to a traditional publisher with this book, but it just felt like the things they were offering me, I think I have already. I have that support, but I would say for new writers, for someone who doesn't have like a staff like I do. I mean, it's pretty rare what I have. I think using a traditional publisher makes a lot of sense. It's also self-publishing is financially different. You make an investment. Like, I have to pay for everything up front, right? I pay for my editor, designer, and all that. When you go through a publisher, they're putting out some money. They even give you an advance, but then they're taking the money later.
Jivana Heyman 41:32
It's a very small amount. I don't think we get any... I don't think people who write books in the yoga, at least from my very limited experience, we're not doing it for the money. (No.) We're doing it because we want to share something to some sort of a larger community. That's about it. I haven't I haven't gotten a single dollar yet.
Jivana Heyman 41:54
Don't say that! Oh no. Oh my gosh. And I mean, I'm sure your book is selling incredibly well. I have to say. We can talk about it later, but I have a feeling that it's selling well, so you'll make money eventually. But traditional publishing is very hard to make money. Self-publishing, you could maybe make more, but you have to put out money up front. Anyway, I just like to give people that information so they know. But I would just say that you're right. It's not about money. To me, writing is a practice, so it's a very useful practice for me to put my ideas down, to reflect on them, go over them again and again. It's like journaling; it's something that I do all the time, so I can't help it!
Jivana Heyman 42:35
I, you know, in my PhD coursework, I'm writing so much that I'm so burnt out with writing and studying. I'm like, oh my god, I don't want to write a single sentence other than what I have to write.
Jivana Heyman 42:48
It's exciting, though. I mean, I kind of wish I had done that. Like, I wish I had done what you're doing and like pursued the academics, but I haven't. And I don't know. Sometimes people look down on me because I don't have any of these degrees or anything, but I just feel like I'm doing it myself. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm finding my own way.
Jivana Heyman 43:09
Yeah. No. I mean, the only reason why I'm doing my PhD. I mean, there are many couple reasons, but one of the reasons is the subjects that I am interested in like, like history, is quite complex. Or feminism is quite complex. So for me, I needed sort of an academic rigor that keeps it together and challenges me because I'm taking up courses and I'm studying things which I would have never thought of if I hadn't done this. And two, is as a South Asian woman who's now in my 50s, there needs to be a certain level of - unfortunately or not, or not, unfortunately, credibility - and people like me who are now getting into this academic study in my later part of my years, we have to work doubly hard. I have to work doubly hard to write something than, not only because of my age, but because also I'm South Asian. I'm a brown woman, so I've had to work doubly, triply hard to get some sort of credibility. So that's the only reason why. And I wanted to also open doors for other people. You know, I think I'm the only South Asian in my program. My teacher, my advisor is a South Asian, but I want to have more South Asian representation in academia.
Jivana Heyman 44:45
Yeah, around yoga. I mean, yoga academia, in particular.
Anjali Rao 44:49
Yeah, yoga scholarship is very few. In fact, there are one or two people I can think of. So those are the reasons why.
Jivana Heyman 44:55
It's pretty shocking.
Anjali Rao 44:55
It is shocking. So those are the reasons why I want to do it. Otherwise, it's quite, I don't know, crazy to do to want to do something so intense at this age. I would rather just take a nap, you know.
Jivana Heyman 45:17
All right. Well then, you make me think we should stop because I could talk to you forever, and I want you to go take a nap. And I know you're jet lagged. Thank you, Anjali, for being here. Really thanks for everything. Thanks for your friendship.
Anjali Rao 45:29
Thank you, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 45:30
All right, take care.
Anjali Rao 45:31
Bye bye.
Jivana Heyman 45:41
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Jivana Heyman 46:32
Hi, Deanna! How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:34
Hi, Jivana. I'm good. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 46:37
I'm good. It's nice to see you or talk to you. Yeah. What's going on?
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:42
Good to see you too. I just finished listening to your conversation with Anjali. I love it when you two chat. I love both of you. I love both of your work, and so, as usual, a fascinating conversation.
Jivana Heyman 46:55
Yeah, I love Anjali too. So it's funny to have her on the podcast because she and I talk a lot, and I feel like we're just always talking about a lot of different things. So I hope there was like a clear theme or some useful content there because I just feel like she and I just like to talk, basically.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:13
Yeah. I mean, you covered important content, like, information. You talked about AI. You talked about appropriation, the importance and significance of academia within the yoga world, and yeah, and it's kind of like a little insight into where Anjali's work is going next, which is interesting.
Jivana Heyman 47:34
Yeah, that was what I was hoping to get at, because I'm excited about it. I mean, we did talk a bit about her book and the impact it's had on the world, which is really something, and I'm excited about her next work. I hope she'll write more. We'll see. I'm sure she will. But yeah, she's kind of finding her way through academia, which is like a whole nother world that I've really never had to deal with. So it's interesting. Yeah, I love talking to Anjali, and I mean, she has such an interesting perspective on yoga. I really appreciate it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:08
I thought it was, and you know, with your book coming out in a few weeks, I thought it was interesting you two talked about your book a little bit, as well as just meditation practice in general. And one thing I found interesting is you both kind of had a variety of reasons that you think people don't meditate as much as they you know would maybe like to or don't know they need to be. Although that's a little prescriptive.
Jivana Heyman 48:33
Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:35
But so it got me thinking a lot about like, the obstacles to meditation because I feel like I'm a little distant from my practice right now, and I'm actively trying to work my way back - and it's a little difficult. I feel like my move back to Brooklyn, it's just been a lot of upheaval of routines, and like even having like a space without boxes to feel like I can ground. Yeah, and so, you know, finding my way back to it has been a little bit of a process, but there are many reasons people don't meditate.
Jivana Heyman 49:04
I know moving is really challenging. Yeah, it's funny because that's actually what we were talking about - I just came from the Mentoring Session, you know, we have the Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program with a bunch of teachers - and the topic today was the kleshas, which is the obstacles in the Yoga Sutras, and I had asked them to share, you know, one obstacle that they have in their practice, something that keeps them from practicing, and it was so amazing. They had such insightful responses, and so different, so many different things. Yeah, I know Anjali was talking about that too. Anjali was talking about social media and attention. You know, how attention it's hard to focus, and it's really interesting to me because that is a theme in the book. She's one of the few people - well, you're editing the book - but she's one of the few people who's actually read it so far. So it was fun to talk to her and get her feedback. But that is one of the themes I bring into the book for sure, this idea of attention, because that's really what meditation is. It's about like taking back your attention, taking back your energy. Which is funny because I think for a lot of people it seems like a chore, and I don't know if it really works if it feels like that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:19
Yeah, I guess that reminds me of like Sally Kempton's book, Meditation for the Love of It.
Jivana Heyman 50:23
That is true. Yes.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:26
But I think, you know, to be fair, though, like I think whenever you're starting a new, you know, we'll start off by saying habit, right? Like meditation is more than a habit. I've experienced it as more than a habit, but I think like, just personally speaking, it can feel like a little bit of a - how do I work my way back to this? And it could feel difficult.
Jivana Heyman 50:47
Oh yeah. Yeah, I mean, to me, I think again, mostly I think it's prioritizing yourself, and that's really hard to do for so many reasons. And it could be because you're just like a very caring person, and you're taking care of a lot of people. You're busy because you have family or busy work, or both. You know, taking care of parents and children. Or if you have limited energy because of a disability, and you just don't have the time or just energy to do it. I think there's just so many reasons, and then social media drawing us out, just literally like an attention economy. I talk about that in the book a bit. I mean that is a thing. It's like our attention has become this commodity. I guess one of the points I try to make in the book is that I don't think it's a personal failure if we don't meditate, and I think we need to let that go - the kind of judgmental piece that goes along with not meditating. There's just a lot of, I don't know, like self hatred? Is that too harsh? Like it feels like... What do you think? Is that too harsh?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:58
I mean, I don't presume to know how much you know what people might describe their experience. It could be it could be criticism, you know, self-criticism, which you broach on in the book.
Jivana Heyman 52:08
Yeah. I guess in the book I want to make meditation more accessible through a few different pathways. One is to offer a variety of techniques because I think sometimes people haven't found a practice that works for them. Oftentimes when we learn meditation, we're learning a specific technique from a specific lineage, and that's not bad. And I think eventually you do want to choose pretty much one technique to focus on, but when you're starting out, or I would say even for the first few years, I think it's okay to try different things, and I actually think it's important to, and I think that's because there's such variety out there. I mean, it could be that you want to move your body and through asana, and that's your meditation. That's fine. Or you like chanting, and you want to have an altar and be devotional, or you want to be service oriented, or you like to do self-inquiry, or you like to think about philosophy, or do different pranayama practices. Like there's so many different things that we can do in yoga. That's why I wrote the book because I think that we have a rich tradition of meditation that is often kind of glossed over and asana becomes the focus, at least in terms of what many people think of yoga as and there's this incredible wealth of knowledge and options in the yoga tradition. I think that alone is useful, and then beyond that, I think we need to learn how to adapt them in a respectful way. I think, you know, I try with all my work to show that you can adapt yoga and still respect tradition, and I think the way you adapt is by really focusing on the purpose of the practice. Why do you do it, and how does it work, and then find a way in. Because a lot of times it's the application of the thing that's not accessible. You know, it's like with yoga, I don't ever want to change yoga, but I think the way we teach it, in particular, the way we talk about it may not be accessible to everyone. So I think it's more in the teaching and the sharing, potentially in the way we do it too, that could be adapted, and then also I feel like there's just a lot of assumptions out there about what meditation is. What are some of those for you? Like, what do you think people have assumptions about yoga?
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:36
I mean, I think maybe before I started meditating myself and being introduced to more teachings, it felt like there was a mystique around it in some way. It could feel like maybe an exclusive club, like you needed to pay to receive a mantra from a teacher or a specific institution, or I know. Like you know, like oh okay, I'm not that kind of person, so I'm not going to do that - so that feels like a barrier. Or, you know, like I don't feel comfortable walking into a space like that. Or, you know, like for some folks, maybe it's like it feels like more of an esthetic than an actual practice. Like we understand the esthetics more than what it means to like, you know, it's just 6:30 in the morning, and you have a cup of tea, and it's like I'm going to take five minutes and sit. Like it could be that, it doesn't have to be a whole, you know, your space doesn't have to look a certain way. You don't need to have the right pattern on your cushion, that sort of thing. So I think, I mean, this is just maybe from my experience. It seems like there's a mystique that makes it feel a little bit out of reach.
Jivana Heyman 55:43
Yeah, I agree. I think there is a mystique to it, which is interesting because I think it's really very accessible in a way, more so than asana, which is interesting. And yet we focus so much on that in yoga and physical practice and meditation is something you can do that's internal about connecting with yourself, finding a way back home. I don't think everyone has to meditate. Like I also think that's a problem. I don't think it's the answer for everyone. I think some people's minds, it's not the best thing. Like, maybe doing more active asana is perfect for you. I'm not saying everyone should do it. But I think if you're interested, if you have any interest in exploring, connecting with yourself, and sitting, or even just being in reflection, I think there are practices that are useful to know. And I guess I think that the subtle practices of yoga, the things that connect you more and more inwards, are where the real benefit comes. Actually, so I feel like we're missing out. We're not just we're missing out, but I feel almost like we've been hiding the good stuff. Do you know what I mean? Like, like we've been hoarding it, and I don't get that. I don't get why. I mean, we talk about meditation outside of yoga, but I just think within the yoga world, I don't see enough discussion about meditation. And then when I do, it feels like it's in a very kind of limited way, so I guess that that's part of what I am concerned about.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:26
How do you suggest time and also prioritizing yourself? We talked about this a lot on the podcast too, like self-care, right, and how it leads to us being better stewards in the world, but also like so for somebody, what would you say to them to help them maybe start a meditation practice or spend five minutes with themselves in sitting practice?
Jivana Heyman 57:56
Yeah, I think it's a choice. It needs to be a conscious choice that someone makes, and I think that within that choice, there's tremendous power. And if you haven't made the choice to meditate, if it just happens because you're in a yoga class or because someone tells you to do it, I don't think it's quite as powerful. So I think, to me, there's something about the first step of making a choice to choose to spend time with yourself, and I think that's a really big thing. And I guess I would just encourage people who are struggling with meditation who want to do it, to sit and reflect on that piece first. Like, am I worth the time? Am I worth the investment of energy? And you know, it can be emotional to do that. Like, there might be reasons why you don't. It could be trauma, like you're not willing to sit with yourself because there's uncomfortable feelings that arise, or incredibly painful ones and memories, and that's fine. And when I say that's fine, I mean then maybe it's not right for you. So I mean, meditation may not be the answer, but I think it's worth sitting with yourself long enough to ask yourself the question: Do I want to invest time in myself? Do I want to be with myself to get to know myself better? Sometimes I would say it this way: I think meditation is about getting to know your own self, your own mind, becoming friends with your mind, spending time with yourself, and I just think that has to be a conscious choice. So I guess I would ask people to reflect on that. And you know, in the book, as you do know, I do a lot of reflection questions and journaling, and that's part of what I think leads to a practice: is starting to ask yourself these big life questions. It's like, what is my goal? You know, what is my goal in this lifetime? What am I trying to achieve here? Could I do that better if I had some time that I sat in reflection every day, or some conscious practice? Do I need support? And that might mean a therapist. Like, maybe you need a therapist to like if you're having uncomfortable feelings when you sit with yourself. Maybe you need someone to help you with that. It's okay, or maybe it's a meditation teacher or yoga teacher, or a friend. Like, maybe there needs to be a community that you're part of. But I don't think you can answer these questions unless you sit with yourself just a little bit to ask yourself, do I want this and why? What do you think about that? Is that clear?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:42
Absolutely, and I want to talk to you about this a little more when we have a discussion in a few weeks. But I'll say that like your book is an incredible resource for getting to know yourself and the inner workings of your mind.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:56
That's what I hope. Thanks for saying that. I I really do hope that's what the book is. I mean, it's about meditation, but really, for me, meditation is that journey back to yourself. I know we're gonna do a whole episode about the book. Is that right? About the book, so we can save it for then. I'll stop talking.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:12
Cliffhanger!
Jivana Heyman 1:01:15
All right. Then let's just stop there. I think, but I just want to thank Anjali for you know her friendship and for being on the podcast again, and for all her amazing work, and thank you, thanks Deanna, and thanks everyone for listening.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:32
See you soon, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:34
Okay, bye.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:44
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement, to learn, to answer each other's questions, and to practice together. It's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need. And I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Souza leads the other. And it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org. There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
