Jivana Heyman 0:17
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land, and I'm so glad you're here. Thanks so much for joining me. I hope you're doing well today. My guest is Sally SJ Brown, and she wrote a book called "The Diversity Gap in UK Yoga: Outsider Perspectives," and I'm very excited about this book because this is an academic book that looks at obstacles to accessing yoga, specifically the UK. I think it's so interesting that Sally is doing this work on really taking this very careful, thoughtful, research-oriented approach to what the obstacles are for folks to access this practice, so I'm very excited about it. I love Sally's book, and it was great fun talking to her. And here's our conversation.
Jivana Heyman 1:24
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Jivana Heyman 2:16
Hi everyone. Hi Sally. How are you?
Sally 2:19
Hi, Jivana. I'm good. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 2:21
Good. It's so good to see you again. You know, I know we were just together in person in London, which was very exciting. It was great to meet you.
Sally 2:28
It really was. I had such a good time. It all just went by so quickly, though, didn't it?
Jivana Heyman 2:32
Yeah, I was at the Accessible Yoga Training. That was really fun. I just loved that group. Actually, I mean, I love every group that I train, I have to say, but each one has a special feeling, and that group, there was something very special about it. Don't you think? It was quite diverse, maybe, that was the word. I don't know.
Sally 2:50
It was, and everyone was sort of very heartfelt from their very different perspectives and everyone was just very wedded to the whole idea, weren't they?
Jivana Heyman 3:00
Yeah, and like from all over Europe, it seemed like. Yeah, it was quite nice. Anyway, I had a wonderful time. Anyway, I just wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about you as we get started.
Sally 3:13
Yes, sure. Thank you. Well, my name is Sally SJ Brown. I put the S. J. in there because it's quite a common name, and I kind of describe myself as a writer, researcher, and practitioner, and I focus on equity and inclusion, and health, and well-being, and marginalized populations. And I live and work in the city of Leeds in Yorkshire, in Northern England. So I'm an Accessible and community yoga teacher, and I've been teaching about nine years, and I teach sort of marginalized, underrepresented groups, so kind of older people, disabled people, neurodivergent folks. And I'm sort of running, setting up a non profit, Leeds Community Yoga, and I've been involved with Accessible Yoga sort of right from the beginning when I started training, and I've just recently completed the - finally completed - the training, and I'm also now 300 hours accredited with British Wheel of Yoga. But my other half of life is that I'm an academic researcher, which is kind of connected because I taught in a... Sorry if this is over long. Is this okay to keep this...?
Jivana Heyman 4:23
Yeah, it's really helpful. Yeah.
Sally 4:25
Well, I taught a class in one of the 10% most deprived areas in the whole of the UK, and still do. I'm just about to, and from that I got an opportunity to do a PhD, and I looked at access to yoga for marginalized groups and underrepresentation in in in yoga in the UK, and from that I've written a book, which is I was just showing, Jivana, my fantastic book.
Jivana Heyman 4:51
I know I only haveit in PDF. It's really awesome. I just finished it.
Sally 4:56
I mean, it is actually an academic book, but it's a slim volume, and it's called the Diversity Gap in UK Yoga: Outsiders Perspectives, and I'm particularly proud of it because I think there's a lot written about the various barriers to accessing yoga or increasing there is. But what I really focused on were the people from looking from the outside in, and I think we sometimes forget that we live very much in an echo chamber, and actually the view of us from out there is not actually all that brilliant, and I think I was just saying it might be a bit of a shock to some people in the yoga world. But yeah, so and from this, I'm now working with the British Wheel and looking at equality, diversity, inclusion, and also with the Minded Institute and the Yoga for Health people because yoga in the UK is socially prescribed. So I think we've talked about this before that GPs can actually refer NHS patients to go and do all sorts of well-being activity. But if yoga is inaccessible for people of difference, then it's not exactly the best system to refer them to it. So that's something I wanted to highlight with my work.
Jivana Heyman 6:06
Yeah, thank you. (And...) I'm sorry.
Sally 6:08
Oh well, just to say that I um I've kind of always been interested in exclusion and marginalization, I think, because I'm autistic. I was diagnosed 14 years ago, and I feel that that's kind of given me some perception of the idea of the experience of marginalization, but obviously also I'm a white middle class, higher educated woman, so I have all that privilege that goes with that as well.
Jivana Heyman 6:27
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. No, I'm very interested in the book and in your work. It's interesting though. Well, I appreciate that in the title you mentioned UK yoga because I do think there's some slight differences, not huge, but slight differences with the US. The main one being the last thing you mentioned around social prescribing because we don't have that here, meaning that, you know, in the US doctors can't really prescribe yoga for people, at least not officially. I mean they can recommend it and that happens a lot. I do think a lot of people come to yoga with that kind of recommendation of a doctor. I think for stress, mostly. I'm guessing - I think that's what they're sending people to yoga for, and I always do worry about that. What does that mean when that person then goes to their neighborhood yoga studio? Is it accessible for them? And so I think, in a way, you're addressing that, but in a much more formal way. Also, because in the UK it's a more formal process, right? Where it's actually prescribable. But before before I talk about that, I just I also want to go back and talk about this book being very academic because I know, like, I just read it, and I have to say, I mean, I enjoy that, but it's different, you know, than most yoga books, right? It's very much about referencing other academic research, and there's a formality to it. So I just wonder if you could speak to that, I guess, yeah, the academic piece. I don't know.
Sally 7:56
I guess there is a lot of evidence that yoga is un-diverse, and that's I think... Well, interestingly, I've just been reviewing another academic book that's looking at the idea that the only way that we accept things to be true in this world is if they're scientifically and medically proven, and how that doesn't actually apply to things like yoga. And actually, that is what yoga has tried to do, I think, up until now is to say, "No, no, no, we do help people. We can prove it, but we haven't actually." There is enough evidence for it to be part of this system of social prescribing in the UK. Although I have to say, that's not a very well-funded or very high-profile process, but still, it doesn't have that sort of evidential basis. But that is part of the academic writing about yoga, and there's been quite a lot of studies. I mean, just to give you the top line figures, I mean, the data from the North America - it's a long time ago - 2002 National Health Interview Survey found that 84% of yoga practitioners are white, and only 6% African American and 10% other. It's that kind of figure, it's the same in Germany, Australia, UK, and you know, this is important not just because of the moral imperative of making sure that everything's equally accessible to everybody that, I think, we have sectors of society, but it's this issue of health in that the people who are from these marginalized communities actually experience the worst health, and we call this health inequality. This is this academic concept that's quite important, and so actually, you could argue that the people who are not accessing yoga are the people who could actually benefit from it most. And then the other part of the academic world is that there is an increasing... there's a lot of criticism, I think, of some of this and some of the barriers to yoga access that have been identified in the sort of the yoga community. You know, we know some of the. Including yourself, Jivana, who are highlighting this, and that's also coming through now in the academic world and people are beginning to sort of say, you know, this isn't right.
Jivana Heyman 10:11
I appreciate that, that there's a need for an academic approach because if you are going to have yoga integrated into a system like the Western medical system, there needs to be evidence, and that's in a sense what you're reflecting on is, what has the research shown, and also can we make can we prescribe yoga even though it's not accessible and is it effective, I guess, to do that? It reminded me, you know, there's a new book by our friend Donna Noble, who also we got to see in London. It reminded me a bit of her book, Demystifying Yoga, and I thought it was interesting that your books came out around the same time because I think her book is takes a different approach. I mean, she's very much speaking to a practitioner. It was just interesting to see the kind of academic model that you you're using and that you work within, obviously, I mean, I know this was originally your PhD work, right? This was your thesis, right?
Sally 11:12
It was, yes.
Jivana Heyman 11:14
Yeah.
Sally 11:14
I mean, eventually, I'd love to write more public facing books as well. It just takes time to get these things out, but I do agree. I think a lot of the high-level yoga books are very much talking about us, and I think that you can lose sight of the fact that that can be quite self-referential. Just something I'm quite keen on is is looking at how people view us and about trying to get more people to kind of come into this world. I think that's part of my findings that people, us within, don't realize quite how off-putting it is to those outside.
Jivana Heyman 11:51
Yeah, so I think that's a theme here, right? That you're talking about what is it? Critical theory, is that what you're calling it? (Yes.Can you describe that?
Sally 12:01
So people will probably have come across critical race theory in respect of addressing your privilege, and it's a very, very controversial way of analyzing what's happening in a given situation, and in fact, I think, it's actually been banned in quite a lot of U.S. states. It's very, you know, disliked by the right, and the idea being that you look underneath a very surface appearance of what's happening, at what is happening underneath, looking at what's not being said, but that's actually happening. And there's various sort of process you go through that you sort of look at. I'm just gonna get a little list here, let me find it. No, I've lost it. But it involves... yeah, it's always the way, isn't it? Yeah. So it involves analyzing things like microaggressions and sort of truths, accepted truths, that everyone believes to be true, but actually when you drill down into them, they're not, and a lot of real questioning and thinking about why things exist and why people have certain attitudes. And if you do that to what's happening within yoga, you come up with quite a few, sort of, attitudes that we all hold that we probably don't even realize that we do, and don't really realize that the effect that that's having in terms of a barrier for marginalized groups to access yoga.
Jivana Heyman 13:38
Actually, yeah, I know you mention that in the book. You talk about critical theory a little bit and describe it. So, is part of critical theory understanding that outsider perspective? Is that the idea? Is that where the idea of outsider comes from?
Sally 13:54
That actually comes from... well, there's a few things. The critical theory is about - the way the phrase is, it's typically used to uncover power dynamics and inequalities - so it's kind of looking at the perspective of the people without the power, and the outsiderness is another sort of academic concept of different perspectives, insider / outsiders. There's also an idea of sort of inclusion and belonging. We talk about diversity and inclusion, but people can pay lip service to that, and they can have a policy, but actually, what we're trying to get to is belonging. So there's all these kind of... I find it really interesting, and I think it does sort of spin out into the outside world if people sort of, you know, come out of their ivory tower and share it.
Jivana Heyman 14:45
Yeah, well because I know that was really theme here in this book is this outsider perspectives and trying to... I guess what you're trying to do is try and see yoga from the outside. Is that it? Try to see where it's like people don't feel welcome, right? Where are the obstacles in a sense?
Sally 15:02
Yes, yes, and to have that sense of addressing one's privilege and self-reflexivity to understand that what one is doing might have a negative impact, you know, as a group, as a community, as a practice, as a social institution. We have norms. You know, one of my people in my study - I did a qualitative study, I spoke to 17 people in northern UK cities with sort of a really broad range type of marginalized identity - and somebody was talking about sort of the alienating effects of some of the things that we do in yoga, like the chanting and things like that, and how that can affect you. But those are the really obvious barriers. But then, if you look underneath again at the power and balance, you get to things like well, one of my main ones was this concept of a belief in loveliness, in that everybody in yoga thinks yoga is fantastic, and everything in the garden is rosy, and we're all lovely and kind to each other, and therefore anyone who comes to yoga is going to have this amazing, lovely time. And whilst that's very positive, of course, it creates a culture where it's actually a bit frowned on to be questioning or critical, or to actually ask some of the difficult questions. You know, you're seen to be manifesting negativity rather than actually, you know, saying, "Well, hang on a minute, is this working for people?" There's a lot of yoga studios who brand themselves as open to everybody, accessible, but, you know, not everyone's coming. It's still 70, 80% white middle class. So we need to have that analysis of what it is that we're doing that could be impacting that, and that whole idea that everything's fine and doesn't need to change is obviously not helping.
Jivana Heyman 17:02
And so what you're asking in the book is for this, to call it reflexivity, is that what it is that you're asking the yoga community to reflect on this in some active way? Is that right?
Sally 17:15
And just face it, I mean, another concept is this not seeing, you know, which is related to the belief in loveliness, but people just sort of go around going, "No, no, there's no problem here," instead of tackling issues, you know, like the whiteness of yoga studios, the physical inaccessibility, the sort of expectations that people can sit on the floor cross-legged - they all act to exclude people who are sort of disabled or older or neurodivergent or LGBTQIA plus. All of those groups face, and obviously people who are black, brown, or people of color, all face those types of barriers, and until people in yoga admit that, I mean, I know we're talking to a particular group here who admit it more than most, but I think the fact that this is a small subset of yoga illustrates the fact that the bulk of yoga is not about these issues at all.
Jivana Heyman 18:14
No, it seems to me that is very true. I get the sense that there's a bit of denial, it seems to me, like you said, like maybe living in a living in a bubble, feeling like yoga is great, everything's okay. I had a really interesting experience during COVID times when I started doing more social media because I was home. I started remixing reels that were very physically intense, and I would do them in a chair or on the mat or something simple, like in bed. Do you know what I'm talking about? I don't know if you saw those reels.
Sally 18:50
I did see them! They were brilliant. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 18:51
Yeah, but one thing that was remarkable to me about that experience that most people don't know from looking at them, is that I always reached out to those teachers ahead of time, and these were teachers who were doing this intense physical practice and showing that on social media. The people I thought who were, like, the problem, I'm just going to say, they were usually white, often women who were, you know, incredibly flexible and strong and showing that practice. And almost, I would say, 90% of the time, their response to me wanting to remix their reel was incredibly positive, and they said that they were totally dedicated to accessibility, and that was a huge part of their practice. And it just struck me each time that we live in different worlds. , they didn't see what they were doing, and I'm sure I have similar problems, right? Like I don't see my own privilege. It's hard to do that. But, I was kind of flabbergasted, actually, just that their remarks about how accessibility was a huge part of their practice and what they teach. I was like, okay, you know, that's great. Like, I'm so glad. You know, they were very kind, so I don't mean to criticize, but it was also a little disturbing, in a sense. Do you know what I mean?
Sally 20:11
I totally do. I had similar experiences. I sort of went to see a few yoga studio owners locally about these issues, looking perhaps, I guess, for some support in setting up the nonprofit. And again, lovely, really kind, but one of the things that I kept coming up against, which I had the same response to, was that people's go-to justification is that my intentions are good. And whilst I understand that, especially in yoga philosophical and Buddhist basis, actually, kind of legally, and in terms of sort of a prejudice, that is not a defense. It never is. You know, I didn't mean any harm. It doesn't actually wash it, does it? But people are genuinely kind of using that as an excuse for kind of not being able to tackle these things, and then the other one I came across, and this is an absolute classic because I worked in, I mean we call it EDI here. I think it's called DIA over there. EDA?
Jivana Heyman 21:12
DEIA, yeah.
Sally 21:12
Yeah, in corporate, well, in government bodies, and one of the big things that everyone says that they need to do is to get more diversity in their photographs, and they they don't seem to grasp that isn't actually increasing diversity, actually. I don't know what you'd call the... it's the equivalent of greenwashing, isn't it? It's kind of rainbow washing to just try and appear diverse. Again, very well intentioned, but they think that achieving diversity is having more diverse imagery.
Jivana Heyman 21:43
Yeah. So, how do we address that? I know that you describe that in the book quite a bit, like the conditions that have created this situation. I think you have some clear conclusions. I mean, mostly it's around that reflexivity, I think, that you talk about, but there's more, I think
Sally 22:02
There is, and a lot of it is overlapping with your Accessible Yoga principles. I mean, one of the things that comes out of this is the increasing commercialisation, neoliberalisation, individualisation of, you know, both health and yoga. And whilst we still have a model that delivers for profit, we're not going to be able to have that. I mean, yoga studios are not in disadvantaged areas because they're not the areas with the expendable income. I wonder if that's beginning to be challenged. I see with commercial studios being increasingly squeezed. I see a lot more on social media now of people trying to offer yoga as a service. I mean, I'm trying to look for centralized funding, which I know you've attempted and it's very difficult, but that would make a big difference, I think, when people aren't just chasing the money, and then things like decolonializing and avoiding sort of cultural and religious appropriation, which is again something within Accessible Yoga. I think everyone takes as a given requirement, but is still really not often discussed or acknowledged or in the wider yoga world at all. I think that can be very off-putting for certain groups who want to join in yoga.
Jivana Heyman 23:27
Yeah, I mean, can I just say both of those things seem so important. I mean, there does seem to be a... I think it's a critical moment right now in yoga in the West, there seems to be - maybe not in just in the West, but contemporary practice, I should say - where it's like, there was a wave of interest that might be waning slightly, and so I think that the hyper-commercialization isn't working as well. So like, those models, like I know that triyoga in the UK just shut down, and it seemed like that's a massive studio there, and I know some larger studios in the U.S. are struggling, but I know a lot of Accessible Yoga that's doing well. You know, my programs are doing really well. I feel like there's actually more interest in this side of the work, in the community-based side of yoga, and I think there's a shift happening, in my opinion, naturally, I do think so. Then you mentioned cultural appropriation, but, to me, I think the conversation about cultural appropriation has been too oversimplified -- I think it's actually quite complex, because the history of colonization is so complex too. Like, it's so long and messy. So it's unclear, like the lines to me feel blurred around that, sometimes. I feel like some of the ways that we've learned about cultural appropriation seems too simplistic. I think acknowledging the roots of yoga is essential - the fact that it's an indigenous practice - but it just feels like we, like you said, I guess there needs to be more conversation about it, more openness. And what else did you find?
Sally 25:15
Just to finish off on that one, the differentiation between sort of homage and appropriation is kind of hard to define, and people get quite defensive about it. They think that they're sort of honoring yoga by, I don't know, mixing it up with South American. But I think the bottom line is, as we always say in Accessible Yoga is, ask the people themselves, you know, and there's quite a strong outcry saying that this is not okay. You know, people don't put tattoos of Jesus on their back shoulder, speaking as someone who has got an arm on their shoulder. So why is it okay to do it with them? But yeah, I mean, I think the other, sort of, moving forwards is just looking at some of these marketing stereotypes. But I think that's been highlighted quite a lot: the body idealization, and the female dominance and the athletic emphasis, and then encouraging greater transparency. I think the way that yoga works is that you're supposed to kind of cross this rubicon into becoming part of the yoga world, and that means that we don't have to go out there and try and explain to people what it's about because when you're ready to find it you will kind of thing. Maybe a little bit more kind of outreach work would be helpful. And then something I'm looking to do is the next stage of my research, and I'm hoping to work with those two bodies in the UK, is to look at existing examples of best practice. So what I'd like to do is just find people out there who are doing this really, really well, and then use a proper academic model to produce what they call a theory of change and then we'd be able to offer that as a model to say to people, this is how you move to greater accessibility and diversity in yoga.
Jivana Heyman 27:00
Yeah, that's a great idea. So you just said two things. One is outreach. I just want to highlight that. I think that's probably, to me, maybe the most important piece that's missing in contemporary practice. I think it's dangerous... I mean, not dangerous, but ineffective to expect any marginalized person to come to a studio that's not designed for them, to come into a space that feels unwelcoming or exclusive, I think, or you know, financially inaccessible. It just seems, to me, like the idea of making a contemporary practice accessible by shifting it is not very effective, and I think that's where most people's focus is, like just on the surface. I think going directly to communities is essential, and I don't know how much, other than like nonprofits that are teaching that, I don't think there's a lot of training about how to go about doing that as a yoga teacher, how to do it, you know, financially to make it work or professionally, how to actually handle that organizational side of like working within structures that already exist and approaching communities and asking if they're interested in yoga and what they need, and even like helping them find the appropriate teacher for their community, that always feels really important. Anyway, and I also love the idea of best practices, I think. And again, in the UK, I think you're a little bit ahead because at least you even have a yoga teachers' union, you know, which we don't have in the US. So I think there just seems to be at least a portion of the UK yoga community that is way more advanced, or like, I don't know what it is, progressive and kind of ahead of the game than they are here, because I can't imagine a yoga union in the US anytime soon, unfortunately, it just feels feels like an impossibility. But there are some efforts over there, it seems to me, to bring people together.
Sally 29:05
Honestly, bizarrely, it feels like the U.S. is so much more ahead than us. Whenever I attend any of your events and hear all the people speaking, in terms of identity, it's so much stronger over there. So maybe, kind of, we've both got areas of strength and areas to work on.
Jivana Heyman 29:20
I mean, I think in the UK - maybe because it's smaller geographically - it feels like there's better organization, and I think I think the progressive politics in the UK is a little more common. I mean, it's just more mainstream. I just think that the the US might be just a little bit more conservative politically, in general, but like workers' rights are considered just a normal thing to discuss in the UK, but here it's kind of not. So that piece, I think, we're really lacking. But it's true that I think there's some more awareness in around some issues around race and disability and politics and gender. I think that's true in the US. Queer issues. Anyway, it's quite interesting. I really appreciate what you're doing. It's such a huge topic. Honestly, I mean, you're taking it all on. Yeah. And so your future work is to continue to teach in those communities and then also research it and start a nonprofit? That's a lot.
Sally 30:28
It's too much, isn't it? Yeah. (Yeah!) And I don't have an income really. (Yeah, okay.) Bit of a challenge. But I mean, just a couple of other things that occurred at the end of of that conversation, one is I think another thing around making yoga more accessible is this issue you just touched on about finding the right teacher, is that it's an unregulated industry, and I think it's very unclear who is safe for different people, and that would really help. But it's extremely unpopular in yoga circles to talk about those things, and then one of the things that you said and reminded me of the idea of solutions. A lot of people are moving towards specialist classes for particular communities, and actually, in my research, and okay, it was just a qualitative study, but everyone was going, "Oh no, I wouldn't go to a class just for old people" or just for... and they don't seem to want that. So I thought that was quite interesting.
Jivana Heyman 31:25
Yeah, that was interesting. I'm surprised by that too. I mean, people might say that, but they might actually feel different if it was offered in their current place, like where they're living or in their community. It just might be more appealing. I don't know how else to overcome it. It's quite interesting, you know, I talk about this in the training, but that there's that kind of, to me, there's two different ways to come into Accessible Yoga. I mean, one is to diversify existing classes and to make sure that teachers have the skills to make their classes, you know, to be able to serve all students. But then there's that other kind of you know specialized or affinity class that especially is designed for a specific population. I think both of those are important and can happen, I think, at the same time. I think yoga teachers can do both and kind of focus where they want. The other thing I think that's really important is to avoid white saviorism, which I think you discuss somewhat in the book. I mean, this idea of like white people coming in and trying to fix the problem - I mean, it's just another aspect of colonialism, isn't it?
Sally 32:26
Yes, indeed, and really hard to avoid given the demographic of yoga. You know, 70-80% white middle class, higher educated. I mean, the way I've often described it is that if you look at there were there were organizations such as - I don't know - there was Yorkshire Cricket or the police over here who said for years and years and years we're completely fine, no racism here, no exclusion, until somebody within them spoke out and said, "You know what, it's absolutely awful," and then there was this massive crisis where they were branded sort of institutionally prejudiced, racist, or whatever. And I think it isn't until you get that outside view that you, as an institution, you have to address this stuff. And I don't want to be sort of, you know, the killjoy, the harbinger of doom, but I do think that yoga should, as a whole, you know, start to have a look at that stuff.
Jivana Heyman 33:25
Yeah, but I mean, I think it's so beneficial, you know, because that's how healing can occur is through awareness, right? Ignoring a problem doesn't really make it go away, so it feels like that's what you're doing is trying to examine the current situation, right? The privilege that exists within contemporary yoga, yeah, that's what I was reading that part in your conclusion. I think you talk about, let's see, "Examination of privilege can be a painful and uncomfortable process, and has been resisted by some dominant groups." And that's what you're talking about. And then there's like, right, the backlash that exists against this conversation. What do you recommend we do next, then, as a community? What would help? How can we do that?
Sally 34:11
I think all those things that we mentioned, you know, the moving to a different delivery model, addressing some of the marketing stereotypes, encouraging greater transparency and reflexivity, perhaps looking at regulation and coming together. I think that's the thing we have. I mean, this has been highlighted recently by I've forgotten her name there, a blogger in the US who's been sort of talking about Yoga Alliance. You know that we don't...
Jivana Heyman 34:38
Rebecca Sebastian.
Sally 34:39
Yes. We have such disparate bodies that represent us, and they don't represent us. They just sort of police some of the qualifications, and perhaps that would be a really good place to start to make sure that we are all... the left hand is talking to the right, because what we tend to have is very factional yoga. We sort of started, perhaps, with the lineages and has now moved on to sort of different styles, different bodies, and so we can't talk as a whole. It used to be the case over here with the care home sector. I used to work in health and social care, and we have a unified health, but we had this completely disparate social care, so we couldn't say, "Oh, older people need to take less drugs," because you were speaking to dozens and dozens of little organizations, and I think that's the situation we're in with yoga. It'd be good to have some sort of coming together.
Jivana Heyman 35:31
Yeah, that's a hard one. I think that you're right, that because of the history of yoga as being so diverse. I mean, we're talking about yoga as if it's one thing, but it's really a lot of different traditions, and you know, and often contradictory ideas or teachings actually at the root of them, and ancient. So it's a very, very complex history, and I think to assume that it's one thing now is problematic too. So I mean, I think the organizations have their hands full. I know when I was running Accessible Yoga, the nonprofit side, which I did for a very long time, I looked into trying to support that. Like, how could we create a structure that would offer some support for yoga professionals without controlling them? And I couldn't really find a way other than just education, and that's what we landed on, and that's what we do is just educating people because the minute you regulate, you start to kind of exclude and control. And I just couldn't bring myself to do that, you know, from an Accessible Yoga perspective. It just didn't seem right. It seems to me like the other thing that can happen is, that I've always focused on is, educate teachers, but also try to lift up people from marginalized communities to be teachers in those communities, rather than bring in those outsider teachers to like... I don't know what it's called - maybe there's an academic term for that - but just like, you know, say I'm a teacher and I'm invited to come teach to some group that I'm not a part of, what if instead I actually found out is there anyone here who wants to be a teacher, and I kind of helped them get trained, either through tutoring or through financial support or whatever, networking to like support people within that community to become the teacher of that. I mean that's really how Accessible Yoga started, and I think it's kind of been lost a bit. This idea of almost like outreach work rather than going out to teach. Do you know what I mean?
Sally 37:35
I totally do. I think that's such a good idea, and I have benefited from that. You know, my teacher training, initial teacher training was subsidized because I've always been on a low income as a lone parent, and as an autistic person, my employment prospects have been very checkered. And then also, for my PhD was funded, and then just recently, if you don't mind me saying, I benefited from support from yourselves, and you know that has enabled me. I know that my disability is hidden or not visible, and I'm not perhaps as severely impacted as other people with other types of difference. But it's enabled me to be here today talking about this stuff and having written a book, which I'm enormously pleased and proud and grateful for. So, and without trying to sound too gushy, I think it's enormously important, and thank you for continuing to do it.
Jivana Heyman 38:25
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's awesome. I'm so glad. I'm glad you did this work. It's great that you know you were able to focus on this topic. That it's getting the attention it deserves. I hope that it continues to expand, especially over here. But I really appreciate it, and so I also I really recommend people that are interested in this, they read your book. It's available now, right?
Sally 38:48
Yes. There's also online, I wrote for an online paper called The Independent, and one called The Conversation, so there's a summary version of that out in the world, if that's easier for you than a heavy book.
Jivana Heyman 39:01
If you can send me those, I can put them in the show notes. All right, anything else, Sally, that you want to share with us today?
Sally 39:06
No, that's it. Just thank you very much for having me on. Honestly, it's really a privilege after listening to your broadcast for so many years. It's great to be here. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 39:17
Oh, thank you. Thanks so much. All right, I'll talk to you later.
Sally 39:21
Thank you. Bye bye.
Jivana Heyman 39:32
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Jivana Heyman 40:26
Welcome back, everyone. Hi, Deanna. How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:29
Hello, Jivana. I'm well. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 40:32
I'm good, I think. Yeah, mostly good. I enjoyed talking to Sally. You know, it's exciting to see Accessible Yoga being researched and discussed in that way - that was kind of cool. What do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:47
You took the words out of my mouth! I was going to say the same thing. I think it's incredible, and you know this comes up every few episodes, how yoga as a tradition, it doesn't need to be validated, quote-unquote, by any Western science. However, I know you two talked about how in the UK, you know, people can actually prescribe yoga. So it is used in medical settings, and so it's actually it's super important to have research like this to quantify it for that kind of use, and then that opens up potential, like you know, insurance coverage and all these things, which could make it more accessible for a subset of people. So it's interesting.
Jivana Heyman 41:32
Yeah, and actually, that issue I remember came up in our last season. I don't know if you remember, we had this conversation. I think someone asked a question about it, about this idea, or like tension between accepting the authority of yogic science and the teachings themselves, and the approach of yoga versus trying to get it kind of - I don't know what - like proven or approved by contemporary Western science. I think in the end, it's not like they're not in opposition to each other. I mean, we can embrace yoga science and also pursue research now, especially if it's going to have a positive impact, like Sally's doing with her work. Because I think what she's doing, like you said, you know, yoga can be prescribed in the UK, and she's looking at the obstacles so that when people do prescribe, it's an appropriate practice that's being offered to them. I think that is incredibly useful and interesting. I found that this area of research really compelling. I mean, her book was quite dense, again, because it's really her thesis. You know, I don't know if like an average reader would enjoy it, but I think someone who's committed to this area of accessibility in yoga and addressing the barriers to yoga, I think would really appreciate it because she does it in such a... like, I don't know. What is it about researchers that's just like very thoughtful and each step is like considered, and then all the terms are defined? And I just found that to be really interesting. So much of it was like defining terms and looking at different frameworks for examining the obstacles. Especially the part Sally was really interested, I think, in understanding our own inability to see the obstacles as a yoga community, our mistaken idea that yoga is already available to everyone and welcoming, because we may feel like it is, but in actuality it may not be. And so she said there was kind of like a tension there or like a gap between what we think is happening and what's actually happening. And I think that's a lot of what she's trying to address in her work, is to be more clear about well, what's really happening, and how do what do people really think about yoga, which I think is really useful for the yoga community to reflect on, especially here in the US, I'm just going to say, but I know her work is based on the U.K. So, what do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:19
I just want to underscore the preciseness of like, the scientific method, especially in this day when experts are being disregarded in the world, not important. That sort of preciseness has given way to like so many innovations, and you need to be that specific when you're creating a study and presenting research, because there needs to be a common ground for everyone so we know exactly what this means. She also shared with you, and you just forwarded it to me, a study that's been - her research - that's been in the form of a review paper. I don't know if folks know the academic process, I know loosely. But, even before papers are published, they're in review and they're reviewed by a variety of experts and journals, as far as I know, in their field.
Jivana Heyman 45:10
Right, what I sent you was actually a summary of her research, the same research that the book was based on that she submitted for review to a journal, and it's still being reviewed. It takes a long time, but it did condense the book quite a bit.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:28
And so it's funny because eventually these sorts of articles become like TikToks. All of this work gets distilled in like text on a screen. So next time...
Jivana Heyman 45:39
I kind of wish that was true though because I feel like it would be nice if social media world was based on factual information or at least accurate information. I don't know if it's working that way.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:55
Sometimes, right. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so you have to be discerning about what you're taking in, but just in reading this, it was interesting the way she kind of categorized different types of barriers. I don't know if you wanted to go through them.
Jivana Heyman 46:11
Sure. I mean, before you do, though, can I just say one more thing about the research piece? I just want to say that it was really fun to read all of her reference notes. So in the book, because it's actual research, what she's done is she's referenced previous research, and there has been quite a bit of research in this area. So I don't think we should say that hers is the first one, but I think what she's done is approached it slightly differently, and maybe in a more comprehensive manner, with a different type of analysis, and that was useful. But she definitely referenced a lot of incredible researchers that have been doing this work for a long time, including many of our people in our community, like many people that you know actually, and that I've interviewed on the podcast, like Steffany Moonaz, who, in Yoga for Arthritis, has done such amazing work around yoga and research. And actually, Steffany has a new book coming out, I think maybe not till next year, but it's a book literally about yoga research. But hers is more focused, I think, on the medical piece. This is like research regarding accessibility. This is more cultural. But my work was referenced in her book, which I was really touched. And also I saw that my work was like... I don't know how she shared it, but there was a way to see that my work was referenced in previous research articles on this topic too. So I was just kind of shocked. I had no idea. I had no idea that I was being referenced. Anyway, but yeah, let's go through... she talked about the barriers - you were going to talk about, you were going to discuss.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:45
And it's complex, right? Barriers. I mean, this is your work, Jivana. This is your area, right, of Accessible Yoga, and so you talk about this all the time. But this was interesting the way they were categorized. So she categorized them into three, even though they are complex and overlapping, the first one being practical barriers that includes external and practical real world barriers such as cost and locality. Then there was perceptual barriers, so things like internal and emotional barriers like clothing requirements. And then cultural barriers. So these are again cultural and behavior barriers that were aspects of yoga culture, such as not seeing potentially divisive or critical issues.
Jivana Heyman 48:29
And that that's maybe the thing we talked about a little bit earlier, right? We're not seeing... like, cultural meaning - I think part of it's cultural appropriation - but I think she's also talking about kind of the culture of yoga, the contemporary yoga culture that seems to yeah like not address issues all the time that seems to want to make it all like love and light kind of thing. Is that is that you're...?
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:55
I kind of I guess I'm translating it as like almost like systemic barriers in some ways. Would you group that under cultural?
Jivana Heyman 49:05
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, cultural issues would be systemic issues. I mean, issues like racism, homophobia, transphobia, fatphobia, ableism. I think these are potentially the issues that we're talking about regarding cultural issues, and the other ones you mentioned were so interesting. I mean, practical issues are probably the easiest to address. I mean, I think that well, let me just stop and say that I think it's interesting because within the Accessible Yoga Training, which we're in the middle of an online Accessible Yoga Training right now, I actually really try to address as many of these as possible, and it's kind of a lot. There's a lot of them. Like I mentioned quickly, like racism, homophobia, ableism. These are all topics that come up in the training, and we have expert guest teachers talk about them, but we also talk about these others, like practical issues. I think that cost is an ongoing conversation in our community and locality. The other issue that comes up there is like... does she mean, you think, like location? Because I feel like the location of a class can be a barrier, and I often bring up the concept of universal design, which is a really amazing philosophy and approach really to disability justice, but beyond that, just to like societal planning. It's one of these big concept ideas. Universal design is where you build the world around people rather than try to have people adapt to a world that's not accessible to them, so it's really at the heart of accessibility. Universal design would be not only physical structures that are accessible to people, but looking at, you know, public transit being physically accessible and financially accessible. Looking at people's schedules and timing classes when it works for when people are available, things like that. Universal design can kind of take in all of those concepts. It's really quite profound, but I think around location, one of the issues that comes up a lot in my trainings is the question of offering Accessible Yoga classes in an existing yoga studio versus going out into the community and offering classes out in those locations, and I've just seen so much more success when people do that when they are willing to go out into a community, assuming they're the right teacher for that community. But that's another conversation maybe we can have. But I would just say like that question of location feels really important in this conversation, don't you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:40
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and this again, these are overlapping concepts, right, like the perceptual barrier. You know, like I might not want to walk into a yoga studio on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan because I just don't want that kind of vibe, right? Or it feels like I would be uncomfortable there, right? Like I would have maybe shared cultural values. I might, but it's like the perception of it being in that location to me just makes it feel like, oh, it's going to be too expensive. People are going to be in whatever leggings, and...
Jivana Heyman 52:16
Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a huge piece of... well, maybe I had moved on to that one in a way by saying that offering an Accessible Yoga class within an existing yoga studio may not work because there's already some kind of - I guess I'll use the word culture to confuse the topic - but basically there's an existing culture there that people may not feel welcome in, they might not feel part of. And so, I often encourage yoga teachers to build community, and when they do that, to spend time getting their students to talk to each other, to start class by having people share their name or something personal about themselves, introduce themselves. You can consciously build culture or build community, sorry, in a yoga class, but at the same time, there's a downside to that, which is that if you have an existing connected community, a new person might feel unwelcome just because everyone else like is chatting and knows each other. So I think it's important to be conscious of that as you build community -- like, who is being welcome into this community? Who is not welcome? Who might feel uninvited? And also, is the community very exclusive or kind of homogenous? Does everyone look the same? You know, that's something to consider too. Yeah. So those are interesting. Those were practical, perceptual, and cultural. Is that right? Obstacles to accessing yoga, basically.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:49
You two also - I wanted to touch on this quickly, kind of a new topic too - because you two kind of discuss this idea of white saviorism, right?
Jivana Heyman 53:58
Right.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:58
Like this intention of wanting to like enter a community and like make things better, and you've talked about this in the past in trainings and so forth. So I was wondering your thoughts about that.
Jivana Heyman 54:09
Yeah, yeah, I thought we would talk about it because I had mentioned briefly earlier that, if you're the right teacher -- so like, going into a community is great, but I think it's important that you have some relationship with that community, you know. Otherwise, you may not be the right teacher for them. And I mean, the simplest answer to it is to ask the students themselves what they want and who they want to teach them. But, you know, one of the issues with white saviorism is it's a big part of colonialism and the idea that white people who kind of messed everything up are then going to come in and fix it. And it's a real problem that I see in the yoga world which is that, even in the Accessible Yoga world, like we have these incredibly loving caring people, mostly white people, who want to like help, and I think they might be unconsciously making people feel less powerful by coming in as the person to fix the problem, as the teacher, as the authority, rather than finding a different approach. And I think the other approach is that you could consider, would be to... So, for example, say you are approached to teach a class or you think about going to teach a class and you're not part of that community yourself you could actually just refer out to a different teacher. You can give the job to somebody else and I think in capitalism that's almost unheard of - but I think it's incredibly important to really reflect on the question of: Am I the right person for this class? And if you don't know anyone, I mean, that's a problem, right? So maybe you need to expand your community of other yoga teachers that you know, or see if there's someone within the community that would like to become a teacher and mentor them or support them in some way. Put your energy into helping other people take on that position of teacher and authority, rather than always having to step into that role yourself. I think it's hard to do with, again, the kind of - well not just colonialism, but the capitalism - the system that we live in that we need to make money and that we needed the work and we want the work. I think that sometimes leads us down kind of a dangerous path rather than really reflecting on you know, am I the right person to teach this class? And it could be that you are the right person to do it for a short time, as you really look for someone else to take it on, or train someone within that community, or yeah, just find another way to not center yourself.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:03
Yeah, and you know, like you said, you might be the right person. I think it comes down to discernment in relationship. Like, maybe you have very strong relationships to a community, and it makes sense for you, right? Like, it's not a rule. It's kind of we're all feeling out what's right.
Jivana Heyman 57:26
Yeah, right. Exactly. I think it's about using the yoga practices to be conscious of your actions. I mean, that's the practice of yoga, of trying to be reflective and consider your intention and what the impact could be as well, and again, talking to people about it, asking them, ask the students what they think. I mean, this happened for me with Accessible Yoga because this whole thing started because I wanted to get my disabled students to become yoga teachers, you know. And I remember, I was leading 200-hour trainings, and then I was separately teaching in communities, for disabled folks. And I kept trying to encourage my disabled students to become yoga teachers, and so often they wouldn't. A few of them did, but it was, it was like a perception issue where they kept saying to me like, either they don't see themselves as a teacher, or it was too expensive, or the schedule wasn't accessible, or something. And so, literally, the term "Accessible Yoga" I first used when I started a 200-hour training for disabled people to become yoga teachers. That was how it all started, was to basically create a new paradigm where it wasn't just like, not only training yoga teachers to teach disabled folks and other marginalized communities, but actually train people from within those communities to become teachers. And I think that's a really important part of this whole project. This whole mission is to shift the power dynamics within the yoga world. I think when people see themselves represented as teacher, it's a very different experience for them. And so, part of this conversation, and then I can stop. But part of it is just really encouraging any person who has some kind of marginalized identity, or feels that they do, or has an oppressed identity or something, to really consider if they are willing to be in that position of authority, and to recognize that it's actually a source of power rather than weakness. What I see in a lot of yoga teachers who are either from, you know, I don't know maybe their body doesn't look like a, quote-unquote, yoga body, right, they might have a larger body or or they're disabled in some way or they're a person of color or an immigrant or they're queer or trans or whatever it is, whatever they have some difference, I often find that those people often feel insecure about being the teacher and putting themselves up in front of a classroom because they don't necessarily - and I'm generalizing - but they don't necessarily see themselves in that regard. And I think the opposite is true, that that creates so much potential healing and welcomes in a whole community of people when they see themselves reflected in their teacher, and I think it's people's strength. And I see that happening a lot too. I mean, I have to say, within the Accessible Yoga community, a lot of people who take my trainings, and when people take the online training, they do a final project where they design a class for a specific population, and it's just so exciting when I see people designing a class for their own community. I was just reading a bunch of them last week. I mean, just amazing people who - I don't know - people who have chronic fatigue, people who had stroke or trauma, autistic folks, people who you know who have like this lived experience for them to design classes for that community, I think is incredibly compelling. I think that there's a certain combination of professional training and lived experience that's quite profound when you bring them together.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:17
Absolutely, that's why I love Accessible Yoga Training. I mean, you could see a flyer, and there are so many faces on the flyer, and it's like incredible that they're all in one space. And to learn from each of them, it's amazing.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:30
I know, and I keep expanding because I keep thinking... and it's happening again. Like I think, oh my gosh, I know there's an area we can expand to that we don't have enough representation, and then we end up with a huge faculty, and the training gets longer and longer, but it's never ending. You know, it's like, I want everyone to be seen in yoga. That's the point, right? See themselves, see themselves in yoga.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:55
That's beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:56
Yeah, and I don't know how much people do. I don't know how much people see themselves in yoga. I know Rodrigo Souza talks about it a lot on his social media, I've been noticing, he's really great and clear about it -- talking about disabled folks, you know, don't see themselves in yoga, and I think it's totally true. So anyway, I wish there was still a printed Yoga Journal because I'd want him to be on the cover. You know, I always tell him he needs to be a cover model.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:23
Bring back a special issue!
Jivana Heyman 1:02:27
Anyway, I know that we've gone around this topic, but it does seem like this is really what Sally was getting at. To be honest, I think she's just doing great work, and I I really appreciate it. So thank you, Sally, for doing this research and writing this book, and yeah, anything else? Should we leave it there?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:45
We can leave it there. Thank you, Sally.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:48
Yeah, and thank you, Deanna, and thanks everyone for listening. Catch you next time. Okay?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:53
Next time!
Jivana Heyman 1:02:54
All right. Bye.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:04
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement, to learn, to answer each other's questions, and to practice together. It's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need. And I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Souza leads the other. And it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org. There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
