Jivana Heyman 0:17
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm so glad you're here with me today. I'm actually back home joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash Land, and I'm basically over my jet lag. I got back from teaching in Dublin and then in London, and that's a big trip. So, just trying to settle back here, and I just got to interview two incredible teachers, Theo Wildcroft and Beverley Nolan, who wrote this really interesting new book on yoga nidra. And I'm just very excited about this conversation because I feel like there's been really a lack of information in the yoga world about how to teach yoga nidra in a very safe way that is conscious of the power dynamics and potential issues that come up with this practice, because it's so incredibly powerful. And so I was just very excited to read this book, and I highly recommend it if you're teaching yoga nidra yourself or practicing. It's a very detailed book, but I think you'd find it interesting. So I'll leave it at that. Here's my conversation with Theo and Beverley.
Jivana Heyman 1:40
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Jivana Heyman 2:36
Okay, welcome back, everyone. Hi. Hello, Theo. Hey, Beverley. How are you?
Beverley Nolan 2:41
Hi, Jivana. Lovely to be here.
Jivana Heyman 2:44
Yeah, and I just want to say I'm excited to be interviewing two of you because that's normally not how this goes, and I wanted to give you a chance to say hello each of you and maybe quickly introduce yourselves. But also, I have a question, which is, you know, how did you get to work together on this book? So maybe you could also share just a teeny bit about that. Okay'
Beverley Nolan 3:05
Do you want to start, Theo?
Theo Wildcroft 3:07
I can start if you want to. For those people who don't know me, my name is Theo Wildcroft. I have this kind of hybrid role where I'm a researcher and a scholar and a lecturer, but also I train yoga teachers and write for yoga teachers and work with various kind of yoga organizations as well. And Beverley and I, as we've said, have written this book together. So I'm going to let Beverley introduce herself first. How do we get to work together?
Beverley Nolan 3:37
Well, I invited you to speak first because you took the lead on the book and invited me into it, so that was my thinking there. Yeah, I'm Beverley Nolan. I'm a yoga teacher for a long time, a practitioner since the middle '80s, probably been teaching for about 40 years. But I'm also a somatic movement educator and therapist, and also train individuals in those skill sets as well. So yeah, I think that's briefly me, yoga teacher and somatic practitioner.
Jivana Heyman 4:07
And so the way it happened was Theo had the idea and invited you - is that what?
Beverley Nolan 4:12
That's what I seem to remember! [laughs]
Theo Wildcroft 4:14
We've been friends for a long time - it's fair to say. I can't even remember how we got in contact, originally. But I think I came and did like a guest workshop for you originally over in Cambridge, and I mean I always knew we were going to get on partly because we have so many overlapping interests in terms of, first of all, the kind of somatic and movement side of yoga and not just the practical aspect of how you teach that, but also the philosophical kind of underpinnings of that and what it does for people. So that was really, really important to both of us, but also on this kind of focus on things that are very dear to you, Jivana, about accessibility and justice, and what it means to teach all different kinds of people in the world different kinds of skill sets. So we had there all these things in common, and we'd kind of become friends. And I was doing some guest teaching. I do continue to do some guest teaching for Beverley on her teacher training, and I was kind of being pushed to write a book on yoga nidra. So a lot of people might know that my like most public specialisms are more in terms of kind of ethics and philosophies of yoga and kind of how we teach and pedagogy and these kinds of things. And the one practice everyone wants me to teach is yoga nidra. They're like do the yoga nidra whilst your here, Theo. Whilst you're here, can you do us a yoga nidra? I mean, I was probably ranting to somebody someday about how I just wasn't really satisfied with any of the books out there, particularly on yoga nidra. We can get into why that is, but I thought it was a book that needed writing, and I was, you know, people were like, "Well, you should then write it." And I didn't want to write it alone and I love writing books with friends, because it's how you get to know each other's work better, and how you can really learn from each other in a really interesting way. And I kind of knew if I wrote this book with Beverley, that the complementary kind of skill sets that we have would really come together. A, to create a really fantastic book, but also that we'd learn a lot from each other in writing the book. So I think we're actually... we know more about yoga nidra and know more about, you know, each other's skill sets. Like, we have become both of us better yoga nidra teachers from writing the book together.
Jivana Heyman 4:21
Yeah, I mean I just want to say that that the reason I'm asking about it is because I think it's pretty unusual in the yoga world, actually, to collaborate on a book. I think it's maybe more common in the academic world, even though I don't normally have great things to say about academia. But I do think there is that collaborative approach that is kind of respected and assumed, actually, that in the yoga world it's very much like each person for themselves, and so I appreciated it a lot. And I could see that the book is incredibly, I mean I would say dense, to be honest. I think there's actually like a lot in this book, and to be honest, I think the title is a little misleading because I think that this is way more than just leading safe and simple yoga nidras. You go deep into the history of yoga nidra and of sleep, and that was the part that really surprised me, actually, was that sleep component, but I was very excited about the history piece because that's where I feel like there has never been a source that I found that's really like addressed my big questions, which is mostly what I want to talk about today, if that's okay.
Theo Wildcroft 7:38
We'll definitely talk about that. I also want to point out, however, that you know we collaborate on books because you're in the book that I wrote.
Jivana Heyman 7:45
Well, that's another way. You created a completely collaborative book that where I wrote a chapter with Davy, was it? And it was just like incredibly... you kind of like created these almost like forced collaborations.
Theo Wildcroft 7:59
Yeah, yeah, conversations. If I'm not going to write a book with someone, I want my friends to write books with each other!
Jivana Heyman 7:59
Yeah, that book. Wait, so what's the title of it again? I have it right here.
Theo Wildcroft 8:09
It is the Yoga Teachers Survival Guide. Yeah, that is such an incredible
Jivana Heyman 8:13
Yeah, that is such an incredible book. So I know you have - well maybe it's almost like a political perspective for you around collaboration. (Yeah.) But I think it's really important, and I feel the same way. I mean, so much of what's happened with Accessible Yoga has been based on that, and well, still doing this podcast for me, this is a collaborative experience because I get to interview people and like platform their work, just like the yoga conferences I used to run. It was an opportunity to platform people who weren't getting attention from the mainstream yoga world.
Theo Wildcroft 8:43
Yeah, definitely.
Jivana Heyman 8:44
I think that's awesome. Anyway, I'm just excited that you're here together. Thanks for that. Thanks for doing this book, though. I'm trying to say that I think this book is not only needed but really quite deep in its approach to this topic that I think has been like really begging for it. So I agree with you, Theo, around what you said around there not being a book that really addressed this the fullness of this practiceI have so many questions. I'm concerned about how much time we have because, really, I have so many questions for you! Shall I start? (Yes!) Okay. I'm going to start simple, because I don't know how much people are familiar with yoga nidra. Could either of you actually give a definition of it? Is it even possible?
Theo Wildcroft 9:29
I want Beverley to do this because she's really hot on the process. I'm like, this is how you put it together, but she uses the one who can really describe the process. What is yoga nidra, Beverley?
Beverley Nolan 9:38
What is yoga nidra? So I would like to first say that it can depend on what your intention is, as we know, or as we may not know, the whole process follows our natural process of falling asleep, and the skill and the art is to go through that process and not fall asleep. So for me, it's one of the most challenging practices that we have in our yoga nidra portfolio. But for me, yoga nidra is a methodical process of moving through the layers of being into a place of clarity, I would say. In that clarity, you might fall asleep!
Jivana Heyman 10:20
Well actually, I highlighted that in the book. I have a quote for which, "There are a range of intentions for the modern practice of yoga nidra. These significantly shape the approach, content, choices, and techniques used in the creation and delivery of a yoga nidra practice." That was my big question because I think most yoga teachers think it's one thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, maybe based on their training.
Theo Wildcroft 10:47
Well, there's two reasons for that, I think. One is - I'm going to say this and park it - because I know you want to come back to it, which is the kind of isolation of yoga nidra into different lineages and how little sharing in some ways there's been between them. So that is a thing we can come back to, and I think that's part of it. But also, I think that it is a process that can have a number of outcomes. Like it takes you to a place, right? And that process might take you to a nice nap. And one of the reasons that we chose the title we did, was not to suggest that this is a simple process. It's like, the whole point for us is when you keep it simple, you keep it safe, and you allow for all this incredible diversity of outcomes, right? But the actual process itself is relatively simple. You can be really humble about it, right? But it is important for you as the facilitator and for the participant to have an idea about what it is you're trying to do. So, are you just trying to catch up on sleep? Are you trying to practice a kind of profound form of meditation? Like, are you reaching for some kind of clarity or creative insight? Like, all of these things are possible, and you kind of set your intention and tailor the practice slightly to get you to that place. But also, nothing is given in yoga nidra. You might just fall asleep, and that's also okay. We spoke to somebody at a little mini book launch event the other day who was like, "I always fall asleep in yoga nidra because I'm always really tired. Like, am I missing out on all of those other benefits, and how do I get there?" And we were like, "If you're really tired, you're going to fall asleep because that's what you need. and I don't want to be mean about this. But the most important thing for your body right now is to sleep, right?"
Jivana Heyman 12:28
Yeah.
Theo Wildcroft 12:28
So that is always gonna override these other kind of intentions, right? And in that sense, we're in the service of the practice. Like we just do the process. Like, we can have all the intentions and craft the practice to specific ends, but in the end, none of us get to decide whether somebody just has a nice nap or not, and that might be the most important thing you can do for them.
Jivana Heyman 12:51
Would you say that yoga nidra is different than guided meditation? Like, is it a form of guided meditation to you?
Beverley Nolan 13:01
I'm going to step in.
Theo Wildcroft 13:02
Go on!
Beverley Nolan 13:04
Because I think again there is overlap, Jivana, between something that we might call guided meditation or even guided relaxation. These overlap with the process of yoga nidra, but I think the yoga nidra process is very, very specific, and I think that's what I just wanted to...
Jivana Heyman 13:22
And how is it...? What's specific about it? Because you're guiding people to go to that sleep state? Is that why?
Beverley Nolan 13:32
It's very specific. Well, the way that we've unpacked it, there's a very specific step by step neurological process that's happening, and that does lead to states that are recognized as meditative states or flow states, for example. A guided meditation, in my experience, may not have that very definitive step-by-step feeling, like I'm going to go through this door and then this door and this door. So I think that for me, Theo, would you say? That it's this step by step process that's really specific.
Theo Wildcroft 14:07
Yeah. I think there's almost a stepping down. I think you're working with trance states in a very specific way. That trance states can arise in meditation and can arise in guided relaxation, but in yoga nidra, you're using trance states in quite specific ways, and you're trying to get people down these steps of trance, which is exactly why you can kind of lose them to a nap, because you've gone deep enough. But you're trying to take them into a place of trance and then back out again, right? In quite kind of specific ways. It's also worth knowing, I think, beyond the kind of neurological perspective, from the historical perspective as well, like the the different things that yoga nidra has meant over the centuries are really interesting, and that's why we have all the history, that prehistory, in there. And one of the early definitions of yoga nidra is not about the practice; it's about the state of consciousness, and that state of consciousness kind of overlaps with samadhi, with turiya -- there are all these different Sanskrit words you can use.
Jivana Heyman 15:05
You described it as aspects of Om, I believe, is that right?
Theo Wildcroft 15:09
Yeah.
Beverley Nolan 15:10
That's one way.
Theo Wildcroft 15:11
Yeah. Different philosophical texts will describe these different states of consciousness, and whether they all refer to the same state of consciousness or not, no one quite knows, like. But some of them, turiya is within the Om. It's like the silence at the end of Om. That's one of the ways it's talked about. But there's also these states. Sometimes it's described as not wakefulness, not sleep, not dreamless sleep, but something else. So there are all these states that are often described in negatives. They're like, "It's not this, and it's not that, and it's beyond this, and it's somewhere else, and it's kind of this, and it's kind of that." These things are very kind of nebulous, right? But yoga nidra, therefore, is the state that you get to, right? It's a kind of a state of consciousness that you're aiming for or a neurological process that you're aiming for. And the good news is human beings are really good at it. It's just we have a tendency to fall asleep when we get there.
Jivana Heyman 16:03
Yeah. You describe at one point, here in the book, you say that you have five parts. This is just one place. This is on page 72.
Theo Wildcroft 16:14
The structure.
Jivana Heyman 16:15
Yeah, the structure. I guess I'm trying to get to yeah, just like basics still. Trying to get, like, just basics out of the way. I just feel like, for people listening, I just want there to be some like clear definition out there. I think you're doing that actually in this book really well, and I don't ever hear that and people ask me for that all the time.
Theo Wildcroft 16:32
Well, this is why, like we have a whole chapter on what's the process, right, and then we have a whole chapter on what's the structure, like what's the practice - like, what are the steps you go to. So the process is, kind of, you can understand that neurologically. You can understand it through the koshas, if you're used to that philosophy. You can understand it with reference to Patanjali. We use different ways of understanding it, right? But the structure is much more practical. It's like the first thing you need to do is make sure people are comfortable. The second thing you need to do is this. The third thing you need to do is that, and there's a lot of... I mean, to an extent, I think we're really indebted to the work of the Yoga Nidra Network for really trying to figure out what the structure of different yoga nidras are, and they started that comparative work of looking at different schools of yoga nidra and going, well, this school does this, this, this, and this. That school does this, this, this, and this. But it was honestly... I'm sure I'm not the first person, but I sat down and went, "Hang on a minute, there's actually only five things happening here." Everything fits into one of these five buckets, basically.
Jivana Heyman 16:34
Okay, can we say what these are?
Theo Wildcroft 16:41
We absolutely can. We can do the first and the last first. So the first is settling, and the and the last is return. And the good news is, yoga teachers already know how to do those, basically. We give lots of tips and tricks, but it's basically how do you get people into a position where they're ready for the practice to begin, and how do you bring them back to an everyday state of consciousness at the end, so that they're safe to go away and drive a motor vehicle, right, or whatever else they need to do, right? Because otherwise they're floating out the door, going, "I've had a lovely time," you know. So we give lots of tips and tricks for both ends of that. But those, the settling and the return, that's a good shavasana, right? You do one and then the other, right? The three in the middle, that's the bit that's kind of specific to yoga nidra, I think. And they are, one, there's almost always some form of body rotation or body scan, some moving of awareness around the body. Right, we go into a lot of detail about different ways of doing that and different kinds. The second is some kind of play of different kind of qualities of opposites. So that's feeling heavy and then feeling light, or thinking about light and dark, or you know it's more emotional things, it's opposites, basically. And you're playing with these ideas of opposites, and there's something about playing with these ideas of opposites that kind of trips you deeper into trance state, right? And we can talk about that.
Jivana Heyman 16:41
Well, it's just funny. I just have to laugh because I thought I was so special that I had that in my yoga nidras, that I had come up with those, you know. But then I saw in your work, I was like, oh wait, that's they all do that.
Theo Wildcroft 19:05
Yeah, they all do that. [laughs] And then the final one, which is essentially before the return, is some form of visualization. Now, what we're also saying, however, is like you can kind of do a yoga nidra even if you just do the settling, the rotation, and the return. Like, you're kind of most of the way there. Some people will get deep enough just on that alone, right? And somewhere in there, you want some focus on the breath, but it kind of depends on where that fits, right? So there are going to be people listening to this who are like, but you have to have this and you have to have that. Yeah, all of those other things exist, but they fit into this structure, this five-part structure, basically. And it's just a much simpler way of understanding what are we doing, what are we doing.
Beverley Nolan 19:45
If I might add, that is what we do when we want to go to sleep. We settle. We make sure the body is comfortable. We might have a moment of yawning or settling the breath, and then we go through our mental activity. What I didn't do today, what I what I should be doing tomorrow, and we kind of park all those things. And then there's that sort of the hypnagogic state that we talked about of the sort of visual, sometimes oral or aural information that seems to leak across from the dream state into the wakeful state. So, what Theo is descand and what we're describing in the book is this very natural process that has been extracted to become a kind of practice. And I think the fact that it has these natural underpinnings makes them a really authentic and strong practice.
Jivana Heyman 20:41
Yeah, that's interesting. So, thank you for explaining it honestly, and for doing so well in the book. I mean, that's just incredibly helpful. I actually think it's strange that we've gotten this far in, at least contemporary yoga, you know, the last whatever 40 years without having like clear definition or concise explanation the way you offer in this book. It's incredibly needed. I am constantly trying to define this for my students or the people I train and like explain yoga nidra versus shavasana and how meditation is in there somewhere. So it's like, you know, that was a tradition I came out of is more as a meditative state, but still, it's hard to define it, and especially as you say, because some of the terms seem, yeah, they're not clear in a way. Like, what are these states of consciousness? Do they overlap? Yeah. Anyway, but I appreciate you come at this in so many ways, right? Like through sleep and then through history. So I want to go to the history piece, if that's okay. I was really struck by the relaxationism piece, that totally shocked me. It was almost jaw dropping because I was like, "Yes, that is what I came through." Like, that is how I learned all these practices. I learned yoga from my grandmother and she was kind of an older hippie in the 50s living in LA and in Ojai studying with Krishnamurti and then Swami Satchidananda, and that was totally what she was into. And I think that was my being exposed to these practices was around relaxation, actually as the goal. And then asana even came later than that.
Theo Wildcroft 22:15
Yeah. I mean, I remember. I don't know if either of you did - did you ever have a copy of Shakti Gawain's Creative Visualization?
Jivana Heyman 22:16
Oh God, yes! My mother was obsessed. I think there was a tape. Was there like an eight-track tape of it? Because I'm pretty sure I heard her voice over and over and over through my youth.
Theo Wildcroft 22:31
Yeah, and some of those practices still gorgeous. The whole, "Make a pink bubble and allow the pink bubble to rise up and down your body" is like that's yum. That is such a nice little practice, right? (Oh yeah.) I love those things. But until I'd reread Mark Singleton's article on relaxationism, I suddenly went, "Hang on a minute, I'm sure I've got Shakti Gawain's Creative Visualization somewhere. I hadn't made that connection either, and the connection that that Mark really makes is that this is a real strong influence on the development of modern yoga. Just the very idea that a yoga class goes through this cycle of kind of effort and rest, right, comes from relaxationism. It doesn't actually come from yoga. It comes from this 19th century weird collaborative international movement of... I mean, even to call it relaxationism is a bit of a like, it's trying to lump things together that at the time would have seen themselves as quite desperate, but you've got this international obsession with the fact that people are too stressed and they need to relax, which is really fun. But it's also, the other reason we've lost that connection is also because Swami Satchindanda and various other people were just denied any connection to it. They were like, "No, no, we haven't heard any of that stuff." Really?
Jivana Heyman 23:49
I know. When I was in, I think junior high, separate from the training I got from my grandmother and then my mother, they led us through yoga nidra completely randomly. Like some guest came in, and I remember it so clearly in my mind that day. I had never had an experience like that in those period, my teen years. Like I stopped practicing with my grandmother, and then all of a sudden, here, wait, I was doing it again, and it was like I was back in high school or junior high doing this yoga nidra, and I was like, where did that come from? Like that was this movement. I think it had such an impact on even the fitness world, I'm just gonna say. I think it was our gym class, and I'm old, so this was early. We're talking like early '70s. You know, but yeah, I think there was this whole movement of - who were they? I mean, there were so many groups bringing yoga to the West at that time and the concepts, right?
Theo Wildcroft 24:39
Yeah, that's going on. But also you've got like, things that Mark Singleton brings into that is like the development of hypnotherapy, the development of psychotherapy. We think of these things as being very different, but actually, you know, Freud getting people to lie on a couch. But nobody's ever seen Freud's original couch. Do a search online for freud's couch, it looks so cozy. It's not like this kind of leather clean, it's got this lovely rug on it. Like I'm serious.
Jivana Heyman 25:14
It was like nest? It was a yoga nidra nest?
Theo Wildcroft 25:18
Yeah, it's like a little nest. Yeah, he was putting people in for a nice nap and then talking to them as they drifted off. That's what he was doing.
Jivana Heyman 25:19
Anyway, I just thought that was so compelling and so interesting because I just feel like this is a big piece of yoga history that's been lost. I think there's such an obsession with Krishnamacharya and his influence, and actually, I think that came later. Like this was already happening, and it made all of these like Western minds into this idea of relaxation and consciousness too. Like these questions, I think, like you said, influencing psychology and so much of the way we think, honestly, the way we're trained in the West.
Theo Wildcroft 25:49
But I also want to be sneaky and point out, also in the history, because you mentioned we talk about the history of sleep, and this is where I have to credit Beverley for making both of us utterly obsessed with medieval sleep patterns and the books of the hours. Oh my god!
Jivana Heyman 26:03
That was so interesting. Yeah, Beverley, can you talk about that? Well, patterns that are just not like we have today, right? Like this separated, segmented sleep.
Beverley Nolan 26:13
I'm not sure how the history unraveled for both of us, but yeah, we did get rather absorbed with books of hours and religious rhythms for the day, and how that fitted in before industrialization. But we ended up pulling on threads and going right back into prehistory and discovering that different chronotypes would have been required, perhaps for survival mechanisms. So you needed people to be developing different chronotypes.
Jivana Heyman 26:41
And chronotypes are people who have different experiences of time? Is that what you mean?
Beverley Nolan 26:45
Chronotype is a little... I like to think it is, "Well, I'm a morning person." So that's a chronotype. I'm more prone to be wakeful and and alive and doing things at five and seven, whereas my daughter would be a night owl, and she's still awake and busy at 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 a.m. So chronotype is kind of how your rhythm fits into 24 hours, really, and that would obviously dictate also your sleep patterns. So that would have seemed perhaps to have evolved as a survival mechanism through evolutionary choices or facts, and then yes, then we discovered things like biphasic sleep, where that sleep can happen in two lumps, as it were, and there's a period of wakefulness in the middle. And so we started to notice all these different patterns, and then how the religious rhythms overlaid all of this. And then we found that religious rhythms were not just in medieval Europe, but we found them in India and other cultures across the world. So it was very interesting to see how sleep was more present in a way, and more valued, and more understood, I think, in terms of the way sleep and wakefulness happens in waves, rather than our current sort of tendency to want to override our natural rhythms or having to need to override them.
Theo Wildcroft 28:23
And also our assumptions that there is a natural way to sleep as well. The other reason we included all of this stuff is to really point out the massive diversity in ways of patterns of rest for human beings across time, and also for different kind of scientific reasons. Neurodivergent people, for example, are much more likely to have slightly more unusual kind of sleep patterns, and that can really feed into their experiences of rest. And yet, when we think, you know, it's this thing again, part of what we're doing in yoga is myth busting what people think is, quote unquote, natural, right? And people tend to think, well, there's a natural eight hour pattern of sleep and it occurs preferably between, I don't know, 8o'clock at night and 6o'clock the next morning, whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's a normal way, and people who sleep the same amount of hours but do it later in the day are somehow lazier than people who do it earlier in the day, and all of these kinds of things. And we really want, I think, from both of us, as yoga nidra facilitators, one of the big issues we have with students is their fears and anxieties around not sleeping, quote unquote, naturally or normally and wanting that sleep to be normal. That's part of why they're engaged often in yoga nidra practices. So we really want facilitators to know and understand that there are so many different ways to be human, right? And that includes the different ways that we sleep, right? So once we start to understand that, and we understand how that butts up against the demands of everything from kind of, you know, capitalism, but also to like caring responsibilities, you know, needing to look up for the kids, whatever else it might be. And that therefore, in a perfect world, we'd all have our own wonderful, perfect sleep rhythm that worked for us, that was deeply individualized, but in practice, there's a gap, right? And into that gap, yoga nidra can help in various different ways. I think, hopefully.
Beverley Nolan 30:16
And just a tiny footnote: I think understanding our own sleep patterns and maybe identifying our own chronotype can help us choose when to practice yoga nidra and aligning it with our intentions. So, for example, if I am needing sleep or I'm very tired, then if I'm practicing yoga nidra, it could be as a sleep aid. We know that it's really natural to fall asleep, but if I want to perhaps explore the more meditative explorations of yoga nidra, it would be more benefit for me to practice when I am already very wakeful and aware.
Jivana Heyman 30:55
Yes, I see.
Theo Wildcroft 30:56
Or you do the nappuccino , which is our new term that we discovered.
Jivana Heyman 30:59
What is that?
Theo Wildcroft 31:00
Jill Miller from Yoga Tune-Up. Somebody on her call used to say nappuccino, which is where...
Jivana Heyman 31:08
Napatuneup? That's how you say it.
Theo Wildcroft 31:09
No, nappuccino! So what you do is you have a coffee first. (Oh - nappaucino!) Have a coffee first, and then do your yoga nidra, and then you come out of your yoga nidra at the end, rested and ready to go.
Jivana Heyman 31:20
Our captioning is going to struggle with this conversation.
Theo Wildcroft 31:23
Sorry. Napp-u-cci-no, like cappucino.
Beverley Nolan 31:25
Tiny other footnote. That's what some monks would do, would be take coffee in order to sustain them through their prayer.
Jivana Heyman 31:36
Ah. Okay. So that you don't fall asleep, because I mean
Beverley Nolan 31:39
Yeah, exactly.
Jivana Heyman 31:40
It's interesting that you speak about sleep so much because, like I said, for me, I was trained it's a meditative practice... (It is.)... and we would try to stay awake. If you sleep, that's fine, but it's not what you're trying to do. And so the focus was always on this kind of awake, calm place. This like certain meditative state, conscious sleep.
Theo Wildcroft 32:05
But I think if you're going to not fall asleep, ironically, paradoxically, you need to understand the process of sleep.
Jivana Heyman 32:12
Okay, so you don't do it.
Theo Wildcroft 32:13
So you don't do it. Yeah, you need to understand all of this stuff.
Jivana Heyman 32:16
Now, I wanted to ask a little bit of the history because I think some of the confusion lies in the name. Not so much in the practice, but the fact that oh, yoga nidra, that by calling it that, it's relatively new - from Swami Satyananda was probably the first to call it that. Is that correct? But it existed previously, obviously, in that. And I think that maybe you could talk about that a little bit.
Beverley Nolan 32:40
Or did it? [laughs]
Theo Wildcroft 32:44
We don't... I mean, we have records in the pre-modern era, so prior to kind of the 20th century, we have records of yoga nidra in reference to a state of consciousness. We have it as a reference to particular kinds of divine forces. We don't have a record of the practices associated with that state of consciousness, we just don't have them, right? So Swami Satyananda did do something very specific, which is that he probably, in his mind, what he did was entirely download the practice fully formed from the universe. But I think what we would suggest is that he was bringing together elements of relaxationism with elements of traditional practices that he did know, and the reality is that probably in the course of teaching it and practicing it, like it starts to get refined in and of itself, right? So I think the modern sense of what we think of as yoga nidra now as a set of practices as the structure rather than the process, I think that probably is pretty modern, but it does work. But Satyananda wasn't the only person to have a hand in that, but he probably was the first person to call it yoga *space* nidra. That's why we make a difference between yoganidra, one word, and yoga nidra, which he definitely coined that term, right?
Jivana Heyman 34:06
Right. And can you speak to the previous versions? I particularly appreciate nyaasa in that conversation. I feel like that would be useful, maybe you could explain that a little bit, what nyaasa is?
Theo Wildcroft 34:20
Do you want to explain, Beverly? I'm happy to...
Beverley Nolan 34:23
You go ahead.
Theo Wildcroft 34:24
Okay. So it's nyaasa, which is often it's got that long a sound in it. So Sanskrit word nyaasa, often spelled n, y, double a, s, a, if that helps with the captions. So nyaasa is like a whole suite of practices, right? So they're tantric usually, and there's a whole load of them, and they all seem to focus essentially on moving awareness around the body, but they have very different forms and very different intentions, and we haven't found any of them, I think, that are specifically linked to sleep as such, or to people lying there. So they're much more, like you said, they're much closer to these meditation practices where people would generally be sitting. And most of them involve kind of trying to inscribe the body with divine symbols in some way. So you're moving through the body, and you're imagining the inscription of particular deities, qualities, Sanskrit symbols, whatever they might be, at different points around the body. So it's kind of almost like you're doing a kind of energetic tattooing of the body, right? And you do that...
Jivana Heyman 35:31
Or a mantra. That could be as a mantra.
Theo Wildcroft 35:33
Mantra, absolutely you're using mantra. Yeah, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 35:35
I actually got to spend yesterday with Tracee Stanley, which was incredible because I've known her for years, but we've never met in person. And she's doing a book tour for her new book, and she led us through a short practice of that, which was amazing to experience through her. I mean, I can reference her book is really amazing too, Radiant Rest.
Theo Wildcroft 35:54
Nice.
Jivana Heyman 35:54
Although I don't think it goes quite into the history the way you have here, but I think she's really trying to bring out the good pieces, you know, like the good part of this practice in such a beautiful way.
Theo Wildcroft 36:07
Yeah, and so there's all of these different practices, and the interesting thing I think is it's through repetition that these things get kind of built in the body. And one of the things that they like to kind of confuse yoga teachers with is letting them know that chakras don't exist until you build them. In the pre-modern sense of the word, you have to build a chakra in the body through this process of inscription and re-inscription. You're not just wandering around with them open or closed or whatever. Like that's not how it works, right? They're things that you build in the process. I know there's a whole modern tradition around chakras, and that's a different thing. But in the pre-modern, that's true. So we have all these practices where you're moving around the body. One of the weirdest ones that I've heard of is ones where you do a practice of disgust. This is like a Tibetan tantric thing where, in order to help you lose your attachment to the body, you literally move around the inside of your body, imagining it rotting basically. It's just like wild.
Jivana Heyman 37:04
Well, that actually reminds me of the Sutras, right? The sutra on purity. You know, it's like that disgust for the body is...
Theo Wildcroft 37:12
Disgust for the body is part of the point, right? So all of these practices are known as nyaasa, and we do think that that's one of the things that Satyananda pulled on. And as a result, when you've got things like the Himalayan school and so on, which, you know, on one level you can see all the modern schools of yoga nidra is owing this debt to Satyananda, but also the different schools bring their own traditions into that, and some of them have strong meditative traditions that involve different kinds of body rotations and so on, so they start to bring those in as well. Like the Himalayan Institute, in particular, has a lot of that stuff that they bring in from their own kind of lineage, right?
Jivana Heyman 37:51
Right, and Swami Rama, right? Is that who you were talking about in the book? Yeah. Well, I just want to say, I mean, I maybe there's not a direct overlap here. Maybe I'm thinking about the amount of abuse, though. So I want to talk about abuse because, like, the people we're naming like were the some of the most abusive figures in yoga history. And is there a reason that there is a overlap between them teaching a form of yoga nidra, or is that just coincidental, or is it just that...? They're all abusive.
Theo Wildcroft 38:18
I mean, it might be coincidental, but I'm going to point out that if you're going to teach a practice that puts people into a highly suggestible state, that you might want to be careful about what kinds of instructions you're giving them when they're in that.
Jivana Heyman 38:32
Yeah, well, that's why I want to ask because I feel like what's not spoken of enough around yoga nidra is that state that the teacher is actually creating this condition that feels a little bit -I don't want to say dangerous, but do you know what I mean? Like you're creating this...
Theo Wildcroft 38:48
No, it's suggestible, right? Yeah, suggestible is the right word, right? Because it's like you are vulnerable in that space, right? And suggestibility can be a beautiful thing because, you know, it can bring you to some wonderful places, but it can also, yeah, it has a vulnerability attached to it. If these practices are powerful, then they can have powerful effects, right? And personally, I've never believed that yoga is inherently good. Like, yoga is a set of practices, and the more powerful those practices are, the more they can be used for very diverse intentions, right? And some people have used them for intentions that were not good. This summer we sadly lost Nirlipta Tuli, co-founder of the Yoga Nidra Network. e and Uma were the first people to teach me about yoga nidra, and his was a very sad loss. But Nirlipta was, amongst many other things, a trained hypnotherapist as well as a yoga nidra teacher, and he always said to me that, first of all there's a massive overlap between a hypnotherapeutic process and a yoga nidra. But if anything, it is easier to get people into a hypnotic trance state with a yoga nidra than it is in hypnotherapy. He said it's absolutely the same kind of process in many ways. There are differences, but he said there's a massive overlap between them. The only difference is people are much more likely in yoga nidra to let you do what you want to do. He also said the only other difference was that you could charge twice as much for hypnotherapy as you could for yoga nidra class, which I thought was really funny. But he said yoga nidra is in effect more hypnotic than hypnotherapy - or can be.
Jivana Heyman 40:32
Yeah, I mean, I would agree just from my experience. Also just teaching it, I can see it. You can see the impact it has on your students, and I think that's part of why I'm... and because of all the abuse, I wondered about ethical frameworks for the practice, you know, how... Well, there's two pieces that I like to talk about when I train people these days, and that's not only having ethical framework for your work, in general, as a yoga teacher, because all of these practices are about either building energy or becoming open, or, you know, that they're very... they're powerful. Like, there's power here, right? So you need a framework to work with power, right? Otherwise, it can be dangerous or put you in harm's way, and that's the other piece. So there's the ethical framework, and then there's also the like conscious choice about how you're using this power. So like, how are you dedicating this practice? Like, what is the goal orientation? What is the focus of this? Do you know what I mean? Is it just for your own benefit only, or is it to serve others? Is it for the benefit of the world? Do you know what I mean? So I think, to me, there's two pieces that need to be included in pretty much every yoga practice, but especially something like this that is so powerful. I just wondered if you had thoughts about that.
Theo Wildcroft 41:52
I mean, other than I agree. I mean, I massively agree, and I think we come back around again to that title. Like, that's the point, right? That we are kind of on a mission with this book to... Although as you said, the book's quite complex in and of itself, like the practice can be simple, it can be clear, and it can be safe. But there are ways you need to make it safe, right? And I think we spent a lot of time on that. I don't know of any other yoga nidra book that has a chapter on how to manage difficulties when students have problems, for example.
Jivana Heyman 42:26
Yeah, that was really great, managing difficulties, like dissociation.
Theo Wildcroft 42:31
Techniques and skills, generally. I mean, Beverley has this concept that she brings to the table around container and content, which I'd love you to talk about, which I think is really important.
Beverley Nolan 42:41
Well, I think yeah, container for me is part of the setting up, but I think container is also about the contract you're establishing with your participants. We took a conscious decision to name the role of the yoga teacher as a facilitator in yoga delivery, and that people practicing with us or following our yoga nidra practice are participants, and that part of the container is not just ensuring the environmental conditions are as accessible and as safe as they can be, but that how we set up the practice is an agreement between the facilitator and the participants, and it was very important for us to try and express ways that participants actually have agency within the process. So it becomes less and less about me as the facilitator suggesting things that might appear in their imagination that they have already prepped what they might choose for visualization, for example. And my role is really to prompt their...
Jivana Heyman 43:50
How would you do that? Would you would you ask them ahead of time, or are you saying you would ask, "What is on your mind now?" Or is it something you've already planned?
Beverley Nolan 43:58
Yeah. No, as part of the settling in my own practices, I'm going to use visualization. I'll either say, okay, I'd like to build a yoga nidra practice with you around a tree. So I wonder if you might just, as you're setting up your cushions or the way you're going to arrange your body, could you start to think about a favorite tree or an imaginary tree, and so we see that. And then when I come to that part of the practice, I'll say, "Now I invite you to bring up in your imagination your tree." And then I will do a little bit more sort of fleshing out the image, if you will. But it's all through what they see in their mind's eye, not my tree. I have my tree; they have their tree.
Theo Wildcroft 44:44
I think it's also about informed consent, to begin with. Everything should be about informed consent, and therefore you need to get some of that consent before they've drifted into their yoga nidra state. You need to have that, you know, just let them know enough about the practice in advance so that they know they're comfortable. It's also about, there's a real skill to managing choice in yoga nidra, as there is in most yoga practices, is you're well aware because you need to be offering enough choice and in ways that people can understand what they want to choose, so without overwhelming them with a lot of different choices, right? So one of the things I, as a shortcut, I tend to say to facilitators is A, B, or nothing at all, is a good way of doing it in yoga nidra. So you might want to do this, or you might want to do that. If you're feeling sleepy, you might want to do this. If you're feeling more awake, you might want to do that, or you can just listen to the sound of my voice and let the instructions pass you by, right? So, there are all these ways in which we can adapt the practice of yoga nidra to help encourage agency, so that while still doing enough of the work that the participants can relax, right? And that's what's really new, I think. And again, we're not the first to do this. I think there are yoga nidra teachers, like across the world who've been doing this for the last couple of decades, but that's what's not in those original practices by Satyananda and people like him that are very dogmatic, very prescriptive, very much there's one way to do it and it is right or wrong. And that's the bit I think that people started to become instinctively uncomfortable with as facilitators. A lot of people started to go, "Actually, this doesn't feel right. Like, I'm putting people in this suggestible state and then telling them off for falling asleep and like giving them all these different weird images to think about, including corpses by the side of graves. I don't like that. Like, can we not just again go back to the feeling of that relaxationism?" Like, Shakti Gawain would have never. Like, do you know what I mean? [laughing] She would have been like, "Think about a pink light and something that makes you feel happy." Right?
Jivana Heyman 46:55
Yes, I see you say, "Avoid common triggers, leave space for imagination, choose things that are simple, accessible, exclusive, and natural." And I've definitely learned the hard way to avoid any specific theme, honestly. y teacher used to teach me 'waves of relaxation' moving through the body, and so then I started using that and soon after that I had a student come to me after class and say she was seasick from the waves of relaxation because she felt waves, you know. And I was like, oh wow! So that really got my attention. I was like, oh people really think differently, you know. So I just became very general. But going back to Satyananda for a minute, I just want to say, I was trained through Swami Satchidananda, who was a brother monk of Satyananda through the Sivananda lineage, and I often think that Sivananda is the lost piece of a puzzle in modern yoga that we don't talk about enough. I think his influence is like immense, good and bad. I mean, mostly good, but I would say part of what I struggle with Sivananda, even though he's like my grandfather teacher, basically, was the tone. Like, there was a tone in his teaching. If you've read any of his over 200 books, there was a tone of just like telling you what to do. Do you know what I mean? He had this clearly command voice that he used in his teaching. He wanted you to speak to your mind in a particular way to, like, get into shape. And it wasn't so much about the body, even, like there was a little bit of that, but he wasn't into asana so much. That came from... you know, his other student was Swami Vishnudevananda, the Sivananda Vedanta. You know that was another place you see his influence, but it was just like a certain tone of voice, and I think that's what Satyananda had too, I think, in that approach that you're talking about.
Theo Wildcroft 48:45
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's one way, and that's it. That can be really bewildering, particularly if you have a range of different gurus, right? Because this guru is saying this is the only way, and that guru saying this is the only way. Like, well, how am I supposed to bring these things together, right? And personally, I just feel like what is your intention - on a really big philosophical level - what is your intention for teaching yoga, right? And for me, if I'm not teaching, if I'm teaching for liberation in that grander sense, then I need to start by helping people have more control of an agency over their own lives now, and telling them how to become liberated makes no sense to me.
Jivana Heyman 49:24
No, well, that's trauma-informed teaching. You summarize it beautifully, which is like I think sometimes we get stuck with trauma-informed as being a particular thing, and it's not. It's an approach to power dynamics.
Theo Wildcroft 49:37
Well it's Paulo Freire as well, Pedagogy of the Oppressed when he said, "Education is not another deposit to be made in man." Right?
Jivana Heyman 49:45
Right, and that basically saying that we have what we need inside. You know, like it's about uncovering rather than being told what to do. And I think, I think that's the problem with the way we teach yoga nidra and just yoga in general, which is a very top-down approach, and I think you're getting to that here. And that's again why I say, like to me, the fact that there is such an overlap between abusive teachers and yoga nidra concerns me a little bit because I think it's not by accident that it's been top-down. I think it's been used to control and manipulate people a bit, and I'll even say, one more figure I just want to briefly talk about, and that is Richard Miller. You know, I don't know how much you're aware of what happened. He publicly admitted to sexually harassing his employee, and then wrote a public letter about it. I felt, you know, he's working with the most sensitive populations, and he designed a protocol that was to support people who've experienced trauma because of sexual abuse or because of war. Like, that was his big thing, and yet he basically was sexually harassing somebody, and I'm like, how? To me, and I don't know him really, but I just would say, like, there's such a contradiction there to me. My brain can't wrap around that. Do you know what I'm saying?
Theo Wildcroft 51:15
I mean, I have spent a little bit of time with him. Not a lot of time, but I spent four days with him at Kripalu on a conference he was organizing the first and only ever international yoga nidra conference, which I ended being at, and that was a very intense and very strange place to be for a lot of reasons that I won't go into. Like that's the kind of conversation you need to have with a therapist, but I think it really was in many ways. But I just want you to imagine me on staring at a stage with a proper full-on, in orange robes Satyananda Swami, and Richard Miller and Stephanie Lopez, and and Amritsai's granddaughter on a stage in a line, and Uma from the Yoga Nidra Network. So it was an interesting few days that I probably don't want to repeat. But I think that part of our tendency with people like this is to kind of like try and divide them into good and evil, right? And I met Richard Miller, and he's a human being. He's just a human being. He's a human being that discovered a practice that he thought could really help people, and he figured out a way that he thought he could get that practice standardized in a way that the American military would say yes to it. Right? Like, so much of the work of yoga is pragmatic and partial and like contingent on what access you've got and so on and so forth. So all of that is happening. It does not surprise me that a man like that can also sexually harass women because some of the most normal people you meet are capable of sexual harassment, right? So, I don't I don't see him as someone who was on the kind of divine mission that makes him a pure human being. I guess that's the difference. So I'm not saying oh everyone's capable of bad things and that he shouldn't be called to account, I think he absolutely should. But I think that we put people on pedestals in really interesting ways, and particularly men on pedestals in really interesting ways, in ways in which they become less accountable to themselves and to the people around them. And I've seen that happen. I mean, you know, I'm a graduate of the Anusara Yoga School. I saw John Friend go within... e only saw him like once a year in London. Once a year, he would come to London or come to Europe. And like five years running, I did a weekend workshop with him. And over the course of that five years, that man changed, and he changed because nobody around him would say no to him. So there's something about the structures also that we built, and that's not to take the responsibility away from the individual, because I think that those are exactly the kind of structures that I, as an individual, tend to run from, right? Like when when people try and and and put me on those kind of pedestals, that makes me feel really weird and I don't like it, and that's the difference with that.
Jivana Heyman 54:14
I get that. I get that too. But I would say, just around yoga nidra in particular, I guess I just want to say that it seems to me that we need more structure than usual. That's all. I just feel like because the power that is possible here, that it's maybe even more powerful than a lot of meditative practices for many people because I think it can lead them deep. Before they have a lot of experience of meditation, I think that even newer students can have transformational experiences in yoga nidra. I just feel like there needs to be more safety mechanisms than for other practices.
Theo Wildcroft 54:50
Agreed, agreed. But also part of that process, I think, is also demystifying the practice and saying this is how it actually works. It's not magical. Like on one level, obviously, it's beautiful and all the things we're saying, but actually, it is, you know as Beverley said, it's a neurological process, and to an extent, it is perfectly predictable. And this is what you're doing with students, and you don't need to be a spiritual master to lead yoga nidra, like you know.
Jivana Heyman 55:16
Or practice. I mean, I think that's what you're saying. So that like you're removing the veil. It's like the Wizard of Oz, you know, behind the... It's like you remove the... It's just a guy standing back there, right? The Wizard was the guy and anyone can see them.
Theo Wildcroft 55:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe if we remove the curtain, things like that can, you know, things like sexually harassing your employees are less likely to happen. Maybe? Maybe.
Jivana Heyman 55:39
Well, I get that that. That totally fits for me. This book, I think you're doing that. I'm just gonna say, I really, I think you have definitely removed the veil. Like you are really just, like, exposing. This is what this is, you know, from all different sides in such a clear way. So I really really appreciate that. Anything else you want to share? I don't want to keep you too long.
Theo Wildcroft 56:00
What I want to share, on behalf of Beverley, because otherwise she wouldn't mention it. She has, I mean, we both have other books coming out, but she has a very important book coming out that's very important because it's one of these proper life's work kind of summary of my teaching kind of books called Bodyscapes. So for people who are interested in somatic explorations of anatomy, that book is coming out very soon.
Beverley Nolan 56:26
That's very kind of you.
Jivana Heyman 56:28
Yes. So Beverly, I don't know if you could give me a link or something I can put in the show notes.
Beverley Nolan 56:34
I will do that. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 56:36
Yeah, that's awesome. Congratulations. I'd love to read it.
Beverley Nolan 56:39
Thank you, and I just want to say about yoga nidra, I think apart from the the safety issues that you know were really important for us, it was this demystifying that it is really something... It is really a process that is so everyday. We have decades between us of falling asleep when and when we shouldn't, and I think once we hold that, we know that it's simple, it's natural, it just takes dedicated practice and timing to follow it through to a different alternative than dropping off.
Theo Wildcroft 57:21
And we tried to make the book really practical. I think that's probably also worth saying. Like, one of the reasons we were driven to to write it is because of the number of yoga teachers out there, yoga teachers who are incredibly accomplished at leading an entire like, you know, hour or 45 minutes or 90 minute asana or meditation practice and can put it all together. When it comes to a yoga nidra, all of a sudden they reach for a script. And we're like, "You can do this. You know how to hold groups. You know how to hold space for people. You know how to language things. You can do this." There are all these transferable skills. So we also wanted to make the book not be a substitute for a course because we both run training courses. Please come and do online yoga nidra training with us, or in-person yoga leader training with us! We've both got courses coming up at the moment. But, you know, to really demystify also all of that, we worked very hard to put every possible tip and skill and technique we could in it, and we're very excited about the QR codes in it. Like you can literally follow along, use the QR codes in the book to play little snippets of yoga nidra as you're trying to learn how to do it.
Jivana Heyman 58:29
Yes, I need to do that. And is that from on your website? Is that what it's linking to?
Theo Wildcroft 58:36
The publishers the publishers have put them as unlisted links on YouTube, so please don't share the links because they're not kind of, you know, monetized. That's what they've done. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 58:47
I mean, it is a bit like a textbook actually, which is awesome. It's basically a textbook for yoga nidra. So maybe that's how people can use it. Whether it's you or another person leading a training on this topic might want to use your book because it feels like this has the basic information that everyone needs to know. So, yeah, just amazing job. Thank you both, honestly, really.
Theo Wildcroft 59:09
Thank you so much for having us. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 59:12
And thanks for being here with me today. Okay. Should we leave it there?
Beverley Nolan 59:16
Yes. Thank you very much, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 59:18
All right. Thank you.
Beverley Nolan 59:19
Bye for now.
Jivana Heyman 59:30
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Jivana Heyman 1:00:21
Hey, Deanna, how are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:23
Hello Jivana, how are you?
Jivana Heyman 1:00:25
I'm good, actually. I'm finally back. Actually, I'm finally over jet lag. I've been back from London for just over a week, so it's rough!
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:36
You know, I'm also back, and it was scary how quickly I got over jet lag as well. I love the jet lag coming back. I'm like a 4:30 a.m. you know waker, which is not what I am in like normal day to day life. So I savor it. But then within two days, I kind of like snap back. Going West is a little easier sometimes.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:55
I know, but it's eight hour time difference for me from London and Dublin to here, so it's a lot. And I'm old. I'm getting old, so takes me a while. But it was a great trip, and yeah, it was really fun. Anyway, also I was really excited about this conversation. I'm very interested in yoga nidra, and I found this book really compelling, and so it was a great opportunity for me to get some of my questions answered, actually, maybe you could tell that in the episode that I had. I kind of have an agenda when it comes to yoga nidra.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:31
What is this agenda? [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 1:01:32
I mean, I have an agenda around making it accessible and safe, and I think that's exactly what they're trying to do. I mean, it's literally the book is called Safe and Simple Yoga Nidra. So I, I think we were really on the same page. I just, yeah, I just wanted to clarify some points. Which I think really they went into such detail, and I was trying to simplify in that conversation because the book, I mean, it says Safe and Simple, but the book is actually quite complex and deep. Yeah, it's really something that book, but it's great because I feel like yoga nidra is a space where there hasn't been much academic work, and I think they're both academics, and I thought that was useful to hear that side of it around the connection to sleep, but mostly around history, and of course abuse. And that's the piece that I think we need to keep talking about. It's just that, to me, it's not just coincidental that the people that, like some of the biggest abusers in yoga history are also the ones that were proponents of yoga nidra, I think there's some kind of really concerning connection between those two things. I don't mean to scare people away from yoga nidra, but I do think that teachers who lead it need to have an extra level of awareness, of care, and ethical practices in place in order to do it in a safe way, in a way that is aligned with yoga with yoga teachings. Yeah, does that make sense? That's my agenda.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:16
It does make sense, and yeah, yoga nidra is a very powerful practice, and I think Theo was saying that, right? Like it's a tool, and so how we use the tool, it's not always inherently good in the way some actors may be using it. And if it's putting students in a vulnerable state. You're right, there should be an extra layer of protection and education around that.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:39
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I bring that up in all my trainings. Again, I don't mean to scare people, but I really do want to highlight the issue, because I think that yoga in general, and yeah, that's what Theo is making that point around yoga in general that it's not necessarily good or bad. It's a tool to be used, but I would say that it's an incredibly powerful tool, and power tends to corrupt people, unfortunately, you know. I think that's why we see so much abuse in yoga, is because it's a really powerful tool that people can use for personal gain or for whatever control or whatever it is they're doing, and yoga nidra is just an example of that. I mean, it's not particularly like any better or worse than anything else in the yoga tradition, but I think it is a very good example of, you know, a tool that's actually still being used in contemporary practice that just has this huge impact. And especially, I'd say for newer students, because I think the practice of yoga nidra, it doesn't really depend on experience. I think that you can be very new and have a profound experience in that practice. That's not necessarily the case in meditation. I would say meditation usually, it can take a little bit of practice to get somewhere in it. But with yoga nidra, I think one experience of yoga nidra can be transformative. So I don't know. I guess that's part of why it concerns me too. Am I being negative though? I don't mean to be.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:25
No, no. I think you're shining a light on something that has been very prevalent, right, in the last few decades in Western yoga, where, you know, students are being abused or there's abuse of power in some way. What I loved about the conversation where you three left it is that with yoga nidra, and I think this was part of Theo and Beverley's point as well like, what's happening in your practice is the result of your practice, right? Like, you're doing the practice and while an incredible teacher can certainly create a space for you to have that experience, like, it's you who's creating it through your practice. And so that sort of like, I think you all said, like lifts the veil on what could feel like this mystical experience -- and it very well might be mystical in your case. I'm not going to put a label on anyone's experience -- and, you're the one creating it as the practitioner.
Jivana Heyman 1:06:26
Yeah. (And that...) So, and I think that's... sorry, go ahead.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:06:29
No, no. Go ahead.
Jivana Heyman 1:06:30
Well, I was going to say I think that's why in the book they emphasize so much the connection to sleep, which surprised me in that book because there's a huge portion of the book that's dedicated to the different kinds of sleep and how sleep works, because to me, even though we do call it yogic sleep, it's not about sleep. It's very much about awakening and meditation. And so I was kind of just really surprised about that focus. But I think that's what they were trying to do. That you know, Theo and Beverley are trying to expose the deep inner workings of this practice and what's happening on a deep level from more of a analytical or even scientific perspective. I just think of it more in a classical yoga perspective. You know, in terms of the power of yoga nidra in terms of awakening and of getting our mind quiet in a really short period of time to experience a connection with the true self, which is what yoga is really about, and I think yoga nidra can do that in a way that many other practices can't, or just take longer to do. So it's quite incredible, and so it can be incredibly healing, but also I think in the wrong hands it can be a little dangerous. Like they were saying, remember they were talking about that person who does hypnosis, and they were saying that, you know, it's even more powerful than that, and I think that's true. It's like we're hypnotizing our students in a sense. In fact, you're guiding them, but it's just really important to have clear boundaries and ethics as you're doing that, as you're guiding students to such a deep, sensitive place.
Jivana Heyman 1:08:05
What I also appreciated in this conversation was that, like, it was this was the part of the conversation around agency and making sure students have choices. This is sort of in a separate realm of conversation here, but I thought this was a great takeaway. Theo was saying that, you know, you can offer your students endless choices, but that may have like an adverse effect, right? Like, just like kind of freezing up and being like, actually, there's so many choices, I don't know how to make this my own. And so I appreciated when she said like offer choice A, choice B, or offer choice to not do it at all.
Jivana Heyman 1:08:41
Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:41
Which I thought was a nice little form, especially if you're teaching Accessible Yoga, which everyone should be. But like you know, offering a few well...
Jivana Heyman 1:08:45
Yeah. Well, I would say the same. That's exactly how I teach asana as well. That it's like, try this or this or find your own adventure. Also, that reminded me of something that Beverley said in the interview, which was that you can tell people ahead of time before you begin the practice, I'm going to be leading you through a visualization of a tree, so maybe you could think of a tree that you like or one that you are familiar with. And I thought this kind of like preemptive sharing was really interesting in terms of giving people agency. Like you said, you're giving them information. And one of the things about accessibility and consent, it all comes back to sharing information, which is basically sharing power, right? Information is power. And if you, as a teacher, are just guiding people and they have really no idea where you're headed, you're holding all the power to yourself. But I had never thought of that, what Beverley mentioned, which is you can tell people ahead of time. And I think it's a great idea to say, you know, next we'll be doing a yoga nidra, whatever it is we'll be doing. I want to take you on a journey through the koshas, or we're going to imagine we go to safe place that you can imagine in your mind, whatever that is for you. Whatever the practice, it's so nice to kind of share ahead. Like this is what we'll be doing in this practice. I love that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:10:10
This also reminds me of your conversation with Becky Aten in the last episode of the podcast. We're creating, you know, a space for neurodivergent students, right? Like just being very clear about what's to come and expectations, but I think everyone benefits from that.
Jivana Heyman 1:10:27
Right. I mean, like I said, sharing information is sharing power. It's the key to accessibility. I can't really emphasize that enough, that giving your students information ahead of time, like a clear class description, like as clear as you possibly can be, is going to help to prevent issues later. Like, if you use music, that should be in the description, right? If you do any hands-on, you know, adjustments or anything like that, that should be in the description. That would be so useful for people to know ahead of time what kind of class they're going into? I think that really can prevent a lot of issues. People can choose to not participate. Well, maybe they'll go to a different class that's more aligned with what they're looking for. And even when you're in the class, you can do it by telling people, "This is what we'll be doing today. This is the agenda." And then as you're going through, even in this part, like Beverley was sharing, you can say that before you go into the practice of yoga nidra, which I hadn't ever thought of. So that was kind of genius. Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:11:26
It was such an illuminating episode. So thanks for bringing them both on. I know this is our first time, right, with a trio on the pod.
Jivana Heyman 1:11:33
Yeah, that was challenging, but I appreciate them. It was really nice talking to them, and I really do recommend the book. I will have the link in the show notes. People can check it out. You know, if yoga nidra is a practice that you lead in particular, I think it's good to read this book. So yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:11:50
Jivana, I'm excited to share that we have a voicemail with a question in this week's episode, and it comes from Jeanie Jyanti from The Alchemy School of Yoga in Cork, Ireland.
Jivana Heyman 1:12:01
Wait, so Jeanie is the person who just assisted me in my training in Dublin.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:12:07
Yeah, Jeanie's amazing! We had lunch. It amazing to meet Jeanie.
Jivana Heyman 1:12:11
Yeah, I'm so glad you got to meet her. She's amazing. I'm very grateful to Jeanie for helping me out in Dublin. That's awesome. Okay, well yeah, let's hear it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:12:21
Okay. Let me roll the tape, as they say.
Jeanie Jyanti 1:12:24
Hello, Jivana and Deanna. This is Jeanie Jyanti here from Cork in Ireland. Something I try to do in every class is offer my students a way of connecting with the yogic philosophy via the asanas or the pranayamas that we're doing. I find it can really help them feel it instead of just think about it. It's also something I know, Jivana, that you love to help teachers explore these ancient philosophical texts. And so I'm wondering, have you ever considered doing a training on this topic alone? I know you bring it into all of your other trainings, but I'd love more time to digest them and focus on them. So, if you do decide to do it, pretty please, I'll be the first to sign up.
Jivana Heyman 1:13:09
That's so nice to hear her voice now that I haven't seen her in a couple weeks. But I just want to thank her again. It was so great to spend time with her and to have her help. We had such a great group in Dublin. Oh my gosh, people from all over, mostly all from Ireland, but a few people from the U.S. came actually, and France, and that was kind of fun too to have those people. But it was great to hang out with a bunch of Irish folks and to learn about what they're doing. I have to say, I was really struck actually by how much they're working in their communities. You know, that's what, I don't know if we talked about that last time. I can't remember, but I was just really struck by the work they're doing, those teachers. Did we talk about that before?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:13:53
No, no. Last time we met was actually right before the Ireland training.
Jivana Heyman 1:13:57
Oh yeah, we were in Dublin and the training hadn't started. Yeah, and yeah, so it was great being with them, and also with the group in London. They were amazing. That group was really international. I had Rod, you know, Rodrigo Souza assisting me there, or teaching with me, and also Tim Mosley assisting. That was great. I should also mention Anna Teague assisted me in Dublin. Thanks, Anna. Anyway, I guess I should answer the question. So that's an interesting question. I think she's asking me about a few different things. One thing is, do I have a course on yoga philosophy, right? That was the question really, and I actually did a course a few years back with Anjali Rao. We co-taught a class on making yoga philosophy accessible. It's actually available on demand on our platform. We can put a link in the show notes to that, so you could still listen or watch. They're video recordings of me and Anjali. We split the material, and we even had a little bit of a debate going, which was fun because I would say that's an element of yoga philosophy and yoga teaching that is lost is friendly debate. And, you know, Anjali is a really good friend of mine and so we definitely have friendly debates, all the time, and we shared that in that course. What we did is we took sides on a debate, which is between duality and nonduality in terms of spiritual traditions, both of which appear in the yoga teachings. And I defended duality as the most effective path and then she defended nondulaity. And of course, she is probably right. But it was fun to do that, I love teaching with her. Anyway... and I do love teaching yoga philosophy so much. I also, of course, talk a lot about it in my books, especially Yoga Revolution. So if people are interested, that book, in particular, goes pretty deep into yoga philosophy. But I feel like there is another piece of what Jeanie was saying, she started out talking about how her students benefit from bringing philosophy into the asana and pranayama, into the actual hatha yoga component of her classes and I just want to highlight that. She made that assumption there and I just want to say that is the power of a good teacher like her, I know that she's doing that. And I just hope that we all keep that in mind, that you don't have to teach philosophy in a lecture format. It's a practice of being alive, of how to be in the world and it can come through so many ways. So I just wanted to mention that. I don't know if that is really her question, but I just want to say, I bet she's doing this already. Jeanie, I bet you are already doing that, in a few ways. One is in your own presence. In the way that your practice and understanding of yoga philosophy impacts you on a personal level. And knowing Jeanie, I can say that this is true. That she's incredibly kind and loving and service oriented - and I think those are really the qualities that yoga philosophy leads to. So in a way you are seeing the results. By being with her and being with so many other incredible yoga practitioners, you can kind of feel the result of their practice. Right? You can feel their ability to stay calm or relatively centered in a challenging moment. It reminds me of like, this week I got to practice with Tracee Stanley in person. I hadn't met her in person before and that was incredible. Her presence, I thought, is profound. She was teaching through her presence. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:17:39
Yeah, absolutely.
Jivana Heyman 1:17:40
I also think that we can teach by bringing yoga philosophy to life in the practice of hatha yoga or the physical practices of yoga, the practices of movement and energy work - asana, pranayama, and meditation. When we're teaching those practices, using concepts from yoga philosophy, connecting the dots between asana and philosophy is probably the most helpful thing we can do for our students. Rather than lecture them about, you know, "Pantanjali says, yoga is chitta vritti nirodha." Like, rather than giving a lecture, you could say, "While you're in this pose, as you're moving into this pose, notice what your mind is doing. Is your mind focused? Can you bring your awareness to something and what are you focusing on? Can you focus on sensation, or your breath, or a drishti point, or a mantra?" Or whatever. In a way, that is the actual manifestation of that philosophy in practice. And I think that is a really profound way to teach. It's like a practical approach to philosophy teaching. And then of course you could also teach. You could also lecture briefly. I wouldn't go on too long, but you could maybe open your class with a sharing of a concept from yoga philosophy, like yogas chitta vritti nirodha - yoga is quieting the thoughts in the mind. Or ahimsa, yoga is non-harm or non-violence, or loving kindness. Do you know what I'm saying? So you can sneakily bring things in too without overwhelming your students. Because I think most people, maybe not Jeanie, but most people actually aren't really interested in philosophy. Maybe if they are listening to this podcast they are. What do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:19:24
I think so. We're reaching folks who probably care. If they love your teaching and they love the way you teach yoga philosopy. And also, I want to say, we haven't talked about your new book that's coming up in this episode. And you do a great job of that is this new book, like you bring yoga concepts and meditation traditions to life through your personal life in this book.
Jivana Heyman 1:19:49
Actually, I think the new book, which is on meditation mostly, but I think my goal here was to not go too deep into philosophical concepts as much as look at the practical application and and how we we can practice meditation and kind of live the philosophy. And that's the thing, this is a living philosophy, right, yoga is not something you've studied from the past, it's alive in your practice and I think that's very special. And in fact, I think that's why I love it so much. That's why I'm very passionate about yoga philosophy, not because I like to sit around and think so much, but because I can feel that these concepts support me in living a more peaceful life and dealing with my own suffering, you know, that's really what yoga is for in many ways, is to reduce suffering, to make your experience of life, yeah, just more enjoyable, right? To allow you, in a sense, I would say, really, the goal is to reach enlightenment, but at least to to find joy and the deep peace that is actually our true nature. That's who we are. So what I really love about yoga philosophy is that, really, it's like an affirmation of the most beautiful parts of life, and it gives me faith. You know, and that's the other thing is that, you know, I practice and I can feel that, I can feel it happening within me. Like I can feel my mind settling when I'm meditating. I can feel how I can respond to a challenging situation with my husband by thinking of a yoga teaching. But it's really incredible to have the teachings there as like support for me when I'm a little shaky or when I feel less secure. I think that's the part that it's hard to verbalize, like, how it feels to have - I guess support is the best word. Like, do you know what I mean? It's like a touchstone, but more than that. Almost like I don't know. I'm not sure what the word is.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:22:07
ike an anchor in some way.
Jivana Heyman 1:22:09
Yeah, yeah, like an anchor to come back to, or what?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:22:15
I guess depending on the situation, a cozy blanket.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:22:19
See, you're my editor. A cozy blanket. That's a beautiful analogy. I think a cozy blanket... or maybe there's an analogy you can come up with of something that brings you back. You know, it's like it brings you back. I guess an anchor does that. Reminds me a bit, I don't know, the image that's coming to mind is totally random. I was thinking of like a bungee cord. You know how like bungee jumping and you jump, but then it pulls you back.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:22:45
I mean, sometimes it feels like a snapped leg at times. Sometimes it is very much like a rude awakening to remember, right? Like sometimes it's cozy, sometimes it's a tug back to reality.
Jivana Heyman 1:23:03
It reminds me that, "Oh yeah, that is true." And it's reinforcement. You know, it's like reinforcement for the positive things that I'm striving for in my life. For my effort to be at peace, my effort to work with my own mind so that I can be of service, so I can be kind and loving and effective in the world. I think it reinforces the skills that I've learned over the years and the practice that I've had to do that in a more effective way. Yeah, how's that?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:23:38
That's beautiful. I think we should leave it there.
Jivana Heyman 1:23:42
Yeah, I just want to thank Jeanie again for that question, and also just you know thank her for all her support at that training. It was really great. So yeah, and thank you to Theo and Beverley for writing such a great book and for being on the podcast talking about yoga nidra. And thank you, Deanna, and thanks everyone for listening. Hope to see you soon or connect with you soon.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:24:04
Thanks everyone.
Jivana Heyman 1:24:06
Bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:24:06
See you next time.
Jivana Heyman 1:24:16
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement, to learn, to answer each other's questions, and to practice together. It's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need. And I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Souza leads the other, and it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org. There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
