Jivana Heyman 0:18
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. And I'm actually joining you today from Dublin, Ireland, which is very exciting. I'm here leading an Accessible Yoga Training, and I'm very happy to be here. It's so special to get to travel and meet yoga teachers in Dublin, Ireland. I'm really looking forward to meeting with them this weekend, but for now I got to share this great episode with you. I got to interview Becky Aten, who teaches Yoga for Neurodiversity, and they share about that here. They also teach for the Accessible Yoga Training Online, and they share lots of really interesting information about making yoga accessible to people who are neurodivergent, and they do amazing work. I hope you'll check out the links in our show notes for everything that Becky offers in the world. Becky also works for Accessible Yoga on our team and does amazing support for us. So thank you, Becky. I appreciate everything you do. So grateful for you and for all your great work. So I know you'll enjoy this episode. Here's my interview with Becky Aten.
Jivana Heyman 1:34
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Jivana Heyman 2:27
Okay. Hi, everyone. Hi, Becky. Thanks so much for being here.
Becky Aten 2:32
Hi, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 2:33
How are you?
Becky Aten 2:35
I'm doing great. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 2:37
I am good. I'm very happy to talk to you as usual. I introduced you quickly, but I wonder if you want to introduce yourself some more.
Becky Aten 2:45
Sure, happy to. So my name is Becky. I go by they/them, and she/her pronouns, and I do wear a lot of hats in my work life. I'm here primarily talking about my work as a yoga facilitator, I work mostly in the neurodivergent community. That also - my yoga facilitation work also mirrors my work in other fields, if you will. So, my yoga facilitation work is goes by the name of Yoga for Neurodiversity, and that's a project that I started in 2020, back when I was just wrapping up my 200-hour yoga teacher training. We started in 2019 in person, then the pandemic, the shutdown happened. We switched to virtual. I don't need to tell folks how that felt going through all of that because we all went through it. It was destabilizing in a lot of ways, and that was a really hard time for me personally, mental health wise. And I started to really recognize some of the disabilities that I was struggling with that I hadn't named or acknowledged until that time, and eventually I got a psychological assessment done, a neuropsychological assessment done, was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, and I didn't know really... like, it was a big piece of information to get. I was 38 at the time, and I didn't really know what to do with it. I had already established that when I completed my 200-hour yoga teacher training, that I wanted to work in service of folks in mental health recovery, providing one-on-one yoga. That was a goal I had already had. And then I'm like, well, now in light of this new piece of information about myself, I'm struggling. Like, I want to take a more peer support approach with what I do as a yoga facilitator. Because, well, I wanted community for one. I wanted to find other people who might be having similar experiences. I wanted to connect to feel less alone, and because at the time I couldn't find much online that really met my needs in terms of, for example, you know, looking up yoga for autism. It was all YouTube videos geared for children. Some of them were really disturbing, in fact, in the ways that they did not prioritize consent or choice, and I was just like, this can't be. This can't be what exists out here in the yoga world for autistic people, and I had only scratched the surface. So already there was a lot of good people doing good work. I just hadn't met yet at the time, but starting that project was kind of that first step in finding my place, my path, and also figuring out who is already out there doing similar work. And so, you know, that's kind of like, one aspect of what I do in the world. Not really my bread and butter, so to speak. I don't do that as a form of income. It's more of a act of service, of Karma Yoga.
Jivana Heyman 6:21
And that's Yoga for Neurodiversity?
Becky Aten 6:23
Yoga for Neurodiversity, right.
Jivana Heyman 6:26
And so you're offering online programs, right? Maybe you could describe them a little bit. So like what you're offering.
Becky Aten 6:34
Sure, yeah. So the online programs that I offer, I have three core monthly offerings, so it's and they're designed to sort of meet people where they're at in different places on their journey of discovering their own neurodivergence, your own neurodivergence, if you're listening and you're neurodivergent. So the first one is called Parallel Play, which is a body doubling offering. It's super low demand. So if you're familiar with body doubling, it's popular, especially in the ADHD community, as a way for people to come together to do their own thing with the accountability that comes from having other people sharing space with you, virtual space in this case, and a lot of people use that...
Jivana Heyman 7:20
Like co-working, kind of?
Becky Aten 7:21
Exactly. Yeah. So a lot of people will use it for self-organization, self-care tasks. I tend to use it for, you know, for catching up on things that I do for the Yoga for Neurodiversity project and so it's kind of an... I don't want to say easy, but there's not a lot of expectations. You come and you tell people what you're working on for the hour, and then you have the hour to work, and then we check out at the end, celebrate with each other afterwards. So that's one. I also have a monthly offering for people that actually want to practice together - that's called Yoga for Unmasking - and so that's designed to support folks who are neurodivergent and whether newly diagnosed or newly self-realized, or maybe newer to yoga, even, so that people can start to understand, like, how do we actually identify the practices that suit us that work for us, when a lot of folks are introduced to yoga in a very rigid way or a way that's not super accessible? And so the practices that we offer, that I offer, and facilitate in the Yoga for Unmasking session tend to be explorative, more contemplative, subtle body practices. Not so much asana, but pranayama, meditation, mudra. We do movement as well, but it's all stuff that people can do from a seat, from a couch, from bed, so that there's again, it's that low demand philosophy, so that people can feel comfortable just trying things.
Jivana Heyman 9:14
And can I just say, is that the key here then really? I mean, you obviously teach, but you teach for the Accessible Yoga Training about this, so I've heard you talk on this a lot, but I wonder if you could summarize like what it is that makes yoga for neurodiversity? Like what is it that is different in that kind of a setting? Is it the choice? You talk about a lot about choice, I think, and low demand.
Becky Aten 9:38
Yeah, it's culture. It's neurodivergent culture. I also spend a lot of time with autistic folks, autistic adults in particular, and so I pull a lot of inspiration from the spaces that I - affinity spaces for autistic people - the way that we do things is a little bit different. So, and a lot of it involves social expectations. Yes, choice and agency are super important. Ahimsa, non-harm, is super important as well. It's something that is just foundational. I mean, it's foundational to yoga, right? But it's definitely something that I bring up, highlight, reinforce, remind myself as well as everybody else to keep in mind when we're practicing, and then you know, of course, practicing not just on the mat, but in life in general. But I would say the biggest difference between, like, a space that's designed for neurodivergent folks versus not, is expectations are made very, very clear. Like, here's what to expect. There's a lot of structure around any kind of social aspect. If there's a conversation happening, I'm very careful about making sure that there are ways for all different forms of communication so that folks can participate through the chat, you know, through unmuting and coming on the microphone, through raising their hand. Personally, I'm the kind of neurodivergent person that doesn't always know when it's appropriate for me to jump in and speak. I don't know, unless somebody explicitly says so, I don't know if I'm supposed to raise my hand, if I'm supposed to just jump in at like the right moment in the conversation. So those kinds of expectations, those unspoken expectations, cause so much anxiety. So part of my goal is to minimize that anxiety by keeping the demands really low and keeping a structure in place that is designed to make it easier for people to engage in that social part of it without feeling called on the spot or like really nervous about how to approach participating in a discussion.
Jivana Heyman 12:15
That's interesting, and I mean, I wonder... so you talked about affinity spaces, which are you know spaces designed for particular communities. So you could have affinity spaces for people with any different disability or background. But what about non-affinity spaces? So like if you were advising yoga teachers who were teaching to the general public in terms of making their offerings neurodiverse friendly or neurodivergent friendly.
Becky Aten 12:43
Yeah, I do provide education around that, and I'm happy to do it. I also recognize that that only goes so far because when you're asking people to make changes, you know, to an existing system, procedure, space, you're not building something from the ground up that's suited to the neurodivergent way of being. You're trying to adapt, accommodate, and there's a lot of failure to really adapt and accommodate in those spaces. Which, depending on how well that's handled, could leave somebody feeling like, "Well, you said this is affirming, so I'm believing that this is what a neurodiversity affirming space looks like or feels like, and I don't like it." So then, that's the idea that somebody comes away with, like, "I can't trust someone who says this is neurodiversity affirming." So while I do educate, I am also not...
Jivana Heyman 13:44
I love that. I appreciate you saying that. I think that's true of all the ways that we try to make yoga accessible. Is that it's different to make something accessible after the fact, as opposed to like you said, from the foundation up. You know, to build with people in mind. It reminds me of how often I train yoga teachers who then want to offer Accessible Yoga classes in their existing yoga studios, and I often say like that's a hard thing to do. It's hard to invite a community or a group of people who haven't been welcome, all of a sudden, into a space where they might not feel like they're part of it, and expect them to come. So I say, if you want to reach older people or disabled people, you often have to go to where they are. You can't expect them to come to your existing space that may not be welcoming. That's just getting them there. And then, of course, there's the content, like you said, and maybe it's even harmful because they might feel like it's not actually welcoming to them. Plus, there isn't one way. I recognize that. Like, obviously, everyone is so individual, and we use these broad terms. In fact, I don't know if you have time for that, to explain a little bit of the terminology, because I think these words are often used interchangeably, and I think that like, neurodiversity is almost meaningless. Like it's just such a broad term. You know what I mean? Like it's just humanity.
Becky Aten 15:08
Right, yeah. I mean, and that's true. So the neurodiversity as a concept is helpful as a term itself. It's really just stating a fact, stating the situation that we're in. That all of us are born a little bit differently. We develop a little bit differently, and that's natural, and we need that variety in human minds and bodies in order for us to really have a vibrant and thriving human society. And so the concept came... it's kind of one of those concepts of like, what's the term that's used a lot of times in science, like parallel discovery, or there's something like that, where there were conversations that were happening in the '90s online between autistic adults or autistic people, I should say, in the early, like, chat forums, talking about neurological diversity in the same context as like biological diversity or biodiversity, saying just as I said, you know, we need all different types of ways of thinking and feeling and moving and connecting with the world around us in order for human beings or the human species to thrive on this planet. Just as in a forest, you need all different types of life forms working together to meet the needs of each one. So it's that interdependence that is so important. And we so when we talk about neurodiversity in that context, as a concept of saying we're all different and we're supposed to be that way, it's by design. Then you can extend that to say, if you're talking about being neurodiversity affirming, you're recognizing this fact that this is the situation we're in, and you are proactively, not just passively, but proactively working to see and support all of those differences in, again, thinking and feeling and moving and interacting, communicating. Even the ones that you can't imagine, which is I think the hard part because we can't step outside of our own nervous system. There's no way for us to know what is happening in someone else's brain or body, we can only listen and trust that what people tell us is true. And it's important that we believe people when they tell us about experiences that we can't imagine, because that's the only way that we're going to actually be able to learn what kind of adaptations or accommodations we do need to make to existing spaces to ensure that somebody who, for example, doesn't have the capacity to visualize isn't feeling like yoga isn't for them because they happen to go to a practice that's all about, you know, a visualization. I'm thinking off the top of my head of an example.
Jivana Heyman 18:03
No I love that you shared that, because I mean I think that's maybe one of the biggest obstacles to accessibility is this idea that we kind of assume everyone else thinks the way we do or functions like we do and it's hard to get out of our own... you know, everything is subjective and when you're teaching that's the experience you have to work from, you know, and so many teachers teach from that place of their experience. They even demonstrate, I think, for that reason, there's a lot of demonstrating that goes on in yoga, which can be useful or not depending on the students. But I worry sometimes that it's really, again, more about their practice, what they find, and they expect the same thing. And I think that can be really... it can take away from students' experience a lot to expect them to have a similar experience.
Becky Aten 18:49
Absolutely. I mean, I probably do that every time I facilitate. Somewhere along the way, I make an assumptions... (Assumptions, yeah)... that people are going to feel similarly as I do, and sometimes I catch myself and I'll adjust my language or correct myself if I accidentally say something like, "We all love to do things like this." And then that's not true. I have to remind myself, "Nope, we're not all having the same experience." I mean well!
Jivana Heyman 19:15
You mean well, and that pronoun, that third person plural pronoun that we, you know, I think it's such an interesting way of teaching to me because I think a lot of teachers use it to be welcoming. I heard a teacher teaching a group of older adults using we, everything was we, and it actually felt really welcoming to that community. Like, people who don't feel like they're part of yoga really, and maybe weren't that interested. And it was like a way of the teacher of really embracing the students. But then sometimes I hear that kind of language, and I think, why are you including me, assuming that, right, something about me? So I just love that awareness around language, and also just something else you said that really stuck with me is around trusting the students. I think that trusting that their experience is what they say it is - it's just huge. Like, yeah, just trust them. Like, being compassionate means trusting what people say, or feel, or doing. You know, like it's not about you. And I think that's the hardest thing too, for teachers to do, is to just get out of the way, you know, of the student.
Becky Aten 20:21
It is hard, and I think also, you know, we're talking about neurodiversity because that language gets connected. A lot of times I know, in some spaces, it can be used to be like a euphemism for autism or autistic because there is that history of the term neurodiversity kind of coming from the autistic community, but it encompasses all of us, not just autistic people. But because that language gets tied to a specific community, a medicalized community, because autism is a diagnosis, and an identity - but, you know, we'll talk about it, the identity comes from the diagnostic label -and this is true for other disabilities too, but there also tends to be - what's the word I'm looking for - a questioning of competence, an assumption that people don't understand as well. That because they have this label, that most people, I think, who at least heard of autism or know a little bit about autism, understand that there's differences in communication and socialization. It happens a lot where people assume, well, you have this diagnosis, so you can't really be trusted to know your own mind. You can't really be trusted to be fully competent, and especially true for more marginalized folks who might be non-speaking who communicate in very different ways. Like, there is a danger just inherently in having any kind of disability or any kind of diagnosis that you're less likely to be believed, or people are more likely to make assumptions about your capabilities that are oftentimes really harmful and like, dismissive, infantilizing, minimizing of humanity, dehumanizing -- especially when you're talking about, you know, the pathology paradigm, the idea that differences that relate to disability are disorders, differences that are bad for capitalism need to be treated or cured.
Jivana Heyman 22:43
Right. Bad for capitalism because you're not a good worker or something, right? And because you're not like, yeah, not as productive.
Becky Aten 22:49
Right. You can't meet the expectations that we have for productivity. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 22:54
Right. I mean, I think what you're talking about is basically different aspects of ableism. You know, it's just all different kinds of prejudice against disabled folks, and especially people, like you said, who might have autism or have other disabilities that are related. And I do think as yoga teachers, we have to really spend time reflecting on our own ableism and the expectations we have, you know, and especially because yoga, I think, is is particularly dangerous in this way because it's built, it's become - contemporary practice - has become part of like a wellness model that's built on this idea that health is the goal, and that really feeds into ableism because it means that disabled folks aren't doing it as well, or something, and I don't think that's what yoga really is about. You know, yoga is about equity that we all have the same spirit and recognizing it in each other, and yet we we instead see it as this kind of like goal oriented - I don't know what - like, wellness program for longevity or something. I don't even know what we've done, you know,
Becky Aten 24:04
Yeah, I had a conversation just last week. So I call it my day job. I have a day job. I work for a company in Milwaukee, which is Potawatomi and Ho Chunk and other Great Lakes Nation's land in Wisconsin in the United States. So Ascent Wellness Program is the name of the the company, and so we were talking about...
Jivana Heyman 24:28
Funny! Yeah, wellness...
Becky Aten 24:33
Yes we were talking about the fact that... so at Ascent we work within several Medicaid-funded programs. So these programs are designed for folks who are in mental health recovery, and we offer yoga as one of our services. But because it's Medicaid, we have to tie everything to really specific goals. So everything is progress-oriented. And it's sort of soul crushing in a way because I know that it's important. I know goals can be important, and there's nothing wrong with having goals, but when you're validating a service based on, again, like capitalistic values of you're making measurable progress on something that someone else has deemed valuable - not not necessarily you, but someone else - it really gets in the way of being able to offer yoga as it's truly meant to be offered, as you put it, as a reminder that we are more than our suffering body and our overthinking brains. But this, you know, we are divine beings. We're spirit. We're eternal. We're unchanging, and we have to show Medicaid.
Jivana Heyman 25:49
Yeah. No, I understand. I mean, actually, I've been talking about this a bit on the podcast, that there's a big difference between discipline and self-discipline. Do you know what I mean? Like discipline is external, so like that feels like an external goal, that you're having to fit into this model that has external goals, versus an internally disciplined or internally goal-oriented practice, which is about like, what does someone want? Why are they practicing? Can I ask you, like, personally -- what does yoga do for you? Like, what got you to this point? Was there something that, I don't know, just a moment, or was just an experience of yoga that was helpful?
Becky Aten 26:31
It was a lot of different things. I came to it originally... I think the first yoga class I took was just out of sheer curiosity. It was through our local rec department, so it was very casual. It wasn't super like, physically demanding. I found it interesting, but I don't remember why I didn't continue with it at the time. A friend of mine opened a yoga studio locally, and I started attending partly to support my friend. I don't remember. I think at the time I was working out a lot. I was like actually doing, you can't tell from how I look now, but I was doing a lot of strength training and weightlifting. And so I was interested in the physical challenge of asana. I was like, yeah, let's see what my body can do, kind of thing, athletically. And that was fun for a while. And I took my 200-hour training, and while I was doing my 200-hour training, I happened to return to a special interest of mine, quantum physics, specifically this theory of quantum gravity called loop quantum gravity. Carlo Rovelli is the physicist who theorized this, and I was like...
Jivana Heyman 27:49
Oh I read his book! I actually read his book.
Becky Aten 27:50
You did? Which one?
Jivana Heyman 27:52
I can't remember what it was called.
Becky Aten 27:54
The Order of Time is my favorite.
Jivana Heyman 27:56
Oh I don't think... someone gave it to me. Honestly, it's not an area that I'm very well versed in, but I really enjoyed the book, and it definitely was mind-blowing. It was more of a narrative, actually. He told a story about how some of these concepts were created, I think. I'm trying to think of which one it was now.
Becky Aten 28:17
There's a couple that could be.
Jivana Heyman 28:19
Okay. Yeah.
Becky Aten 28:19
Maybe Reality is Not What it Seems, or something like that. But it was really interesting to note like the similarities between some of the more esoteric yoga teachings and what we're learning through theoretical physics, quantum mechanics. And then I happened to be in a used bookstore, and I picked up this book called The Tao of Physics that actually - it's an older book - but it connects Eastern and Western sciences and ideas in a more like direct, tangible way. And so I found like that practicing yoga with a focus on this special interest of mine - at the time, I wouldn't have probably phrased it this way - but it was a source of prana, a huge source of prana that I was like, I opened this Pandora's box of prana or something, and I was...
Jivana Heyman 28:20
Well, hopefully not a Pandora's box, but yeah!
Becky Aten 29:18
Pandora's box - probably the wrong analogy.
Jivana Heyman 29:20
Well, that's generally bad things. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Aten 29:25
But it was it was a little bit overwhelming. I'll put it that way.
Jivana Heyman 29:28
Okay. Okay.
Becky Aten 29:29
Like I was sort of not ready for all of these like spiritual realizations that I was having through these [...] I was making, because I was really passionate about it. I was very curious at the time. So my interest in yoga maybe started with asana, but then it and then it got more esoteric, and and then I discovered the Bhagavad Gita like and the path of Jnana Yoga, and I thought this is my path.
Jivana Heyman 29:58
Yeah.
Becky Aten 29:59
It wasn't.
Jivana Heyman 30:01
Okay, they're both awesome, but I just want to go back for a second and talk about quantum theory because I actually... I wouldn't say it's a particular interest of mine, but I find it incredibly interesting that some of the scientists who came up with quantum theory had studied the yoga teachings and were inspired by it. And it's unclear. There's been very little... I researched it actually. I could find very little clear connection except that they had read that like the Gita or something, and we know some of the names, right? Some of these people that had been influenced by that, we see that in some modern discussion of it. But I always think of the gunas, you know, and the idea of the qualities of nature as being connected in some way to quantum theory. And I know there's big differences, but I also think there's some interesting similarities. Kind of the idea of this whole world beyond what we see, and forces of nature that are at work that we can't perceive with our eyes, and I think the yogis were very conscious of that, but like 1000s of years before Western science. So it's pretty amazing to me.
Becky Aten 31:10
Right? Yeah, and that's part of why I think I lately have been a little bit turned off. I want to be careful how I phrase this, because I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing the world of yoga therapy or yoga in healthcare settings, but I get a little turned off by this need for us to validate yoga empirically and scientifically. I understand why in our current system that's necessary. At the same time, can't we just let, like, the science and the wisdom of yoga stand on its own. It's existed for so many 1000s of years. Like, why do we need to keep trying to prove that it works? So that bothers me a little bit. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Jivana Heyman 31:51
No, you're not alone.
Becky Aten 31:53
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 31:54
Yeah. I think that the relationship between yoga and Western medicine and Western science is very interesting and important because I think that we tend to, you know, coming from - if you're from the U.S. or whatever, and you perceive that as like, that's science, so then yoga has to be proven by that. It feels like you've privileged the science piece rather than why not the other way around. Why can't you say that, maybe we need to prove science from the yoga perspective? I don't know, or just to value them both as distinct entities that are holistic in themselves. I mean, I don't see why we need... to me, it makes me laugh that in Western science, they're trying to prove like mind-body connection. You know what I mean? I'm like, well, where is your mind if it's not in your body? Do you know what I mean? This idea of like the mind just being separate and not having an impact on the body, and the yogis were so clear that there's no separation. Anything you think is happening in your body, right? It's not separate.
Becky Aten 32:58
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 32:58
So yeah. Anyway, it is very important and interesting. Oh, Becky, you're amazing.
Becky Aten 33:07
We went all over the place in this conversation!
Jivana Heyman 33:09
I know. So I just wanted you to finish. I don't know if you were finished telling me about your experience with why you've embraced yoga. I don't know if any other thoughts about that, because I think it's so interesting. Like, or maybe what made you become a teacher?
Becky Aten 33:21
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 33:22
If you do you feel like sharing.
Becky Aten 33:23
Yeah, well, I could say why I continue to practice is because I've, you know, I was introduced to a lot of the yoga teachings in my 200-hour YTT, but we didn't dive deep. I mean, there's just... you really can't and not a lot of time for that. But since then I've done my own self-study, and everything that I read is like rediscovering things that I had discovered at one point and then forgotten, and so it just keeps validating itself as like true in my body, true in my bones, that every time that I practice - and I do a lot of heart-centered practices where I'll actually place my hands on my heart, bring my consciousness to my heart space - and I feel that that connection with spirit. I really feel it. I don't know how to describe it in words, but it's there, and I haven't come across any other modalities, any other practices like that that help me to connect to that part of myself, and so that's why I keep practicing. And that was not why I originally wanted to teach. I wanted to teach because I thought I wanted to help people. I wanted to help people who were, quote, less fortunate than me. I had a very white saviorism mindset. I grew up... I have a very interesting background. Probably not time for that today, you know. But I grew up kind of steeped in that idea of helping people. But helping people feels a little bit, like I'm saying, like I'm standing on some kind of moral or spiritual high ground, and I'm going to help people rise to my level, which I have let go of that now. I've found that's not at all helpful. It's yeah, of having that perspective, I need to remember that that we're all equal.
Jivana Heyman 35:20
Yeah, well, I appreciate you admitting to that. I think it's very common in the yoga world. You know, maybe even within Accessible Yoga, that people come to this work thinking they're helping those who don't have access or something, and it's very othering, right? It's separating yourself. Yeah.
Becky Aten 35:38
It is. And I give grace to myself for that because, you know, it came from a good place, and I think now it's really more of like - I don't know that I even really think about it that much - it just fills my cup to share and also to have that community care experience, which I don't think I finished talking about my offerings, but I have one other offering each month called Community Connections, which is an opportunity for people to network. It's kind of turning into conversations with people that are doing work at the intersection of yoga and neurodiversity. It's a lot of yoga teachers who come, but it's open to everybody. You don't have to be neurodivergent either, and it's through those experiences where we talk about a topic that relates to the, you know, being neurodivergent or how to approach yoga from a neurodiversity affirming approach. Things like that, but just getting to hear all of those different perspectives, finding common ground, finding out assumptions that I was making that like, you know, maybe were harmful. It's always eye opening to me, but it's that sense of community care where we're all learning together, we're all figuring this out together, that just... I don't know. I guess I don't necessarily feel the same in non yoga spaces. I don't know why that is, but it feels really important that we have spaces like that. I'm sure I'm not saying anything new. It's just... yeah, so that's why I do what I do.
Jivana Heyman 37:20
Well, I think it's important to state that, because I do think sometimes people get offended when they see that there are affinity spaces that they might not be welcome to. Like, if they're not part of that group, they might think, "Well, why do you need that space?" But I think for, you know, for you to share how meaningful it is to you to be part of an affinity space that's dedicated for neurodivergent folks, that feels important to say, you know. It seems to me like both are important. That we need like those affinity special spaces, and we also need to make every space more welcoming. Like both things are true.
Becky Aten 37:53
Agreed. Totally. Yeah. Just in yesterday's workshop, somebody had shared that even when they come to offerings and they don't recognize everybody who's there, if they see another person, for example, openly stimming on the camera, like it's a cue or a reminder to them that this is a space where they can quote unmask and be themselves and feel safe. And so there's, when I talked earlier about like the culture, it's hard to put into words because it's co-created. It's not something that I've necessarily intentionally set into motion. It's just sort of organically evolved this way because of the people who come. But it is like, affinity spaces, like have a lot of just... there's just a lot of permission that people might not feel in spaces that are just open to everybody, or where there's not a clear container built around, like, who's invited and, you know, what we're here to talk about or what we're going to focus on. I don't know. Now I'm like rambling, but...
Jivana Heyman 39:00
No, I think it's very clear. I just want to thank you because I think that you, to me, you're the kind of leader that we need in the world. Honestly, like I feel like you're just so humble about it, and yet, you know, you're basically leading by putting energy into organizing things, and I feel like that's often lacking. That there's, at least in yoga, it seems to me like leadership is seen as being a famous teacher or like doing something particularly well. But it just seems to me that leadership is around caring for people and putting energy into building community for those people, that's leadership. So, I just feel like, I don't want to embarrass you, but I just want to say I'm always impressed by you in that way, because you do it with such humility and it's so important.
Becky Aten 39:53
I do it by accident! Maybe you know what I mean. It's not like I was like setting out, I don't know, to be an organizer. I wouldn't have even accepted that label. Somebody called me an activist, and I hadn't really considered that label either. It's just funny, like the things that I do might fit under certain labels, but it's just happening by accident or by happenstance, fate, what have you. I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 40:26
Well, community organizing is activism, I think, and it's also what activism mostly is.Most people call themselves activists, they're basically community organizers. That's what they're doing. They're just bringing people together around certain topics or issues, and I think that's what you've done. (Thank you, though). Thank you. Yeah, I just wonder if you had anything else you wanted to share?
Becky Aten 40:48
Um, I don't know. I jotted down some notes. I didn't touch on any of them.
Jivana Heyman 40:55
Sorry!
Becky Aten 40:55
That's all right. I didn't know where the conversation was going to go. It was fun. I think the only other thing I will say is, and a lot of folks who come to our offerings are yoga teachers, a lot of newer yoga teachers, mostly neurodivergent folks who don't know where to start, don't know what their path needs to look like. I don't know what their path needs to look like. I don't know what my path is sometimes, and I think people are sometimes worried that there's like competition or that because, for example, I have Yoga for Neurodiversity that like I own this whole, like, yoga for neurodivergent people.
Jivana Heyman 41:35
I shouldn't have called you the leader. I shouldn't have said, because I'm feeding into that misunderstanding.
Becky Aten 41:37
No, no, no! Yeah, but like, I get it. At the same time, like please, please do the same work. If you're called to do this work, you're not stepping on my toes. I hope you'll come to the offerings and meet us all or the community that comes to everything because it's awesome. But like if you're neurodivergent, we need peer support more than anything else, I think, in this world right now. Like we need to find each other and create community care spaces, whether that's locally or online. You creating your own space, there's so much need. Like there's no way I personally, I can't meet it all. So I just want to reassure people that you're not like stealing from me or anything
Jivana Heyman 42:22
That's why I said you're the kind of leader we need because you're not really perceiving yourself in that way. You're just trying to bring people together, and I think that's great. Yeah, I think that comes through.
Becky Aten 42:33
The need is huge. It's huge, and yeah.
Jivana Heyman 42:36
Well, we'll link to all of your stuff so that people can find you, you know, and I'm grateful that you're part of the Accessible Yoga Training. So hopefully, people can find you that way too, and about your work, and just find a place that feels welcoming and supportive in the world. I agree. That's such a huge gift. So thank you. Thanks for doing that. Thanks for everything you do, Becky.
Becky Aten 43:01
Yeah, thanks for inviting me to chat. This was fun.
Jivana Heyman 43:04
Okay, I'll talk to you soon.
Becky Aten 43:06
Okay.
Jivana Heyman 43:16
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Jivana Heyman 44:10
Hey, Deanna. Nice to see you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:13
Hi, Jivana. Nice to see you too!
Jivana Heyman 44:17
I'm laughing because, well, we're both laughing because we're actually together.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:20
We're in the same space.
Jivana Heyman 44:22
Like physical space. We're across the table from each other.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:25
This happens, maybe if we're lucky, once a year.
Jivana Heyman 44:28
I know. I can't believe it. It's so good to be with you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:31
It's good to see you too. We're in Dublin, Ireland.
Jivana Heyman 44:34
Amazing! It's amazing and so different than doing this on Zoom.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:39
We were just talking about how different it is to be with someone in a three dimensional space.
Jivana Heyman 44:47
Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:48
I feel like Jivana is so mellow in person.
Jivana Heyman 44:52
What does that mean about me online? Does that mean I'm not mellow online?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:56
No, it means that through Zoom we're doing status checks and I'm always late with my work with you, so apologies.
Jivana Heyman 45:04
Am I like not very nice about that?
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:06
I didn't say you weren't nice.
Jivana Heyman 45:07
No, and you actually you're very energetic in person.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:10
Apparently, I'm apparently over Zoom, I'm super low energy.
Jivana Heyman 45:14
No, no, no. Actually, we've met before, in person, but only a few times. So this is pretty unusual, especially because we work so much. Like we're talking pretty much every day.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:27
Yeah, it's true, and it was great. I got to spend an afternoon with you and your husband.
Jivana Heyman 45:31
Yeah, that was so nice.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:32
It was special.
Jivana Heyman 45:33
That was really sweet. I'm glad you got to meet him. He hides from most people in my, in the yoga world. He's just kind of over it all. He's been around watching it for years and years, and which is good. It keeps me grounded in the real world, or is this the real world? I don't know which.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:51
There's a secret third world.
Jivana Heyman 45:53
But no, then we're getting ready for the Accessible Yoga Training in Dublin, which starts tomorrow, which I'm very excited about, and it's so awesome. I love being in Ireland.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:03
What has been the best part of your visit so far?
Jivana Heyman 46:05
I mean, I think I just love traveling, and I feel really grateful that I get to do it for work. It's such an incredible blessing that I get to travel and teach. And it was always my dream, actually, that I could do that when I was teaching yoga. When I first started, I thought, well, maybe someday I could travel and it happened and it's amazing. It's a little tiring. I mean jet lag really sucks. Like, I forget and like it's a long distance from California to Ireland but it's just so nice to meet Irish people and I'm looking forward to meeting the whole group tomorrow. That'll be fun.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:38
It's gonna be good fun.
Jivana Heyman 46:39
Yeah and just like being around that culture. It's a very outgoing, friendly culture. I feel like, yeah, very welcoming.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:47
They like to have good crack, and that means have a good time.
Jivana Heyman 46:50
A good time.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:51
Good time.
Jivana Heyman 46:52
Yeah, I get that. You can definitely see people having a good time. Dublin is a beautiful city, really, really sweet. So I had a good time with my husband. He had fun too. He went home today, so now I'm staying for the training, and then I'm headed to London next week for a training there, which will be done probably by the time we release this. So it'll probably have just finished when this podcast comes out.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:13
We did just announce you'll be in Asheville.
Jivana Heyman 47:16
Oh yeah, I'm going to Asheville in February. Asheville, North Carolina. I've never been there before.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:22
It's gonna be beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 47:23
I'm excited, yeah. And actually, well, next year there's a few more coming, but I won't be leaving the country next year. I think mostly traveling around the U.S. So, yeah, I love it. Mostly, you know what I love is that when I travel and teach, I get to be with yoga teachers instead of just being a tourist, I get to meet people and get to know them and talk about yoga, which is my favorite thing. Which is why I love this podcast because I love to talk about yoga and meet people, and so the trainings are like that. You know, especially in person. Online, it's a little harder to have that kind of social time. Although I do love teaching online also, and we have an online training coming up too. So if you can't join me in person, you can always join me online.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:05
And actually, well, you just had a great conversation with Becky. And Becky actually has a session in our online training.
Jivana Heyman 48:13
Yeah, Becky's teaching about sharing yoga with neurodivergent folks for the Accessible Yoga Training, which I really appreciate, and they do a great job. It was really fun talking to them. I love Becky. They're so sweet. They send me pictures all the time. They send me pictures of moss and rocks.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:32
I love that. I want to get on that texting list.
Jivana Heyman 48:36
We have a nice exchange going. They're really sweet, and they're doing great work.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:40
Yeah, they are.
Jivana Heyman 48:41
Yeah, they really are, and they're very humble about it. I know they haven't been teaching very long, but they, as I mentioned in the podcast, in that conversation, like they stepped into kind of a leadership role in the community, which is amazing. You know, in a very humble way, which is great to see.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:56
And I just appreciated the conversation about, you know, this is true in yoga spaces as well as other spaces like, workspaces. Kind of like, how do you create a space where everyone can participate? Everyone feels a little bit more comfortable to participate because, as your conversation drove home, not everyone processes or thinks about things in the same way.
Jivana Heyman 49:15
Yeah, right. I think that was the real main point that Becky was sharing is that neurodiversity is thinking differently, and that's it's just part of humanity, right? Like we all think a little differently, but being open to that. Being able to as a teacher, I think in particular, being able to expand your mind enough to include others, to think that people don't process or think about things the way I do, takes a lot of work, I think, and experience, as a yoga teacher or any kind of teacher. You really have to be able to expand your experience of reality and realize that you're just having one individual experience of the world, and other people have a very different experience. It can be very hard to do. I struggle with it myself. I often assume a lot of things, you know. Even though I've been teaching for so long, it's hard not to just kind of think that... because it's hard to not teach from that place of what you've learned or how you think.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:15
Well, I had a question for you about that actually, because you know I get the sense - now I'm not a teacher, but you know, like as a practitioner too, and working with a lot of teachers - you know, there's a sense that you need to quote unquote like embody the teachings, or you know, get to know the teachings yourselves to a certain extent that you could share them. So, how do you strike that balance between sharing what you know, but then also accounting for myriad of other ways that other people experience things in a yoga class?
Jivana Heyman 50:46
That's such a good question. I don't know. I don't know. Actually, I would say that in a way, I think that's the key to what we're talking about with Accessible Yoga is be able to expand your thinking, like I was just saying, beyond yourself, and to be able to recognize that people see the world and experience the world in a very different way. We all do. We all have that subjective experience, and it's hard to always go to an objective experience. I think that's part of why I always go back to the yoga teachings in a way. I like to refer back to actual Sutras or slokas from the Gita, and that you know, to me, those feel like maybe an objective truth or something that we can all look at or point to, rather than, 'this is what I think' all the time. I can use my personal stories to talk about those teachings or give an example from my life, but I think that is just my experience of that thing. But I like what you said about embodying. I do think that we do need to embody the teachings, but embodying them just means that you are open to other people. That, in a way, is what embodying is. I kind of think it's what makes a great teacher, to be honest, is that they can be open to other people's minds.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:08
Absolutely, and I mean, as a student, you feel that in a class. I was just having a conversation with my cousin today about why she stopped going to a certain teacher that she was seeing for a while.
Jivana Heyman 52:19
Her yoga class?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:20
Her yoga class. Like, she was doing some things in class that weren't part of the flow. It's not like she was being disruptive; she was actually just modifying a posture, and she could feel the teacher getting like, angry. And so, you know, it was an interesting conversation, and I didn't... like, I was shocked because like the folks I talk to, I can't imagine a yoga teacher getting angry at anyone for modifying something. (I know it still happens.) It does still happen, but that's just an example. Like as a student, you feel that from somebody, the perception is you're doing something wrong or something that they want you to do. Or and you feel misunderstood at the same time, like you don't feel like you belong in a space.
Jivana Heyman 53:06
Yeah, I mean the impact of that is terrible. But I want to go back to like the teacher's thinking. So like that teacher, I assume they're coming from a good place though, but that a misunderstanding that they think that they're helping students sometimes either because they've been trained that it has to be done a particular way. So a lot of yoga lineages are very strict, and so things are taught like, "You have to do this pose this way. It needs to look like this. It needs to be in this order." Or it could be like you were asking before about, it could have been that teacher's experience that that's how they do it, and so they want to share that. But I think either way, it kind of misses the point, you know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:51
It kind of it reminds me of, I mean, tenets of Accessible Yoga too, because if you're a teacher and seeing someone do something a little differently, like why not approach it with curiosity and collaboration, like you talk about, and ask somebody, like, "Oh, why are you doing it this way?"
Jivana Heyman 54:07
Actually, I would assume that people are doing something for a reason. Like, I assume if someone's making a choice, they have a good reason for making that choice, rather than assuming they don't know what to do.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:19
Exactly.
Jivana Heyman 54:20
And I think there's a big difference for our Accessible Yoga teachers. I want Accessible Yoga teachers to come from that side. Trust the student. If they're doing something that looks like they'll hurt themselves, you could say something. You know, "I see you've made that choice, but I don't want you to hurt yourself, and I'm worried that you know that might hurt your lower back or your shoulder doing it that way. What do you think?" Like maybe that kind of conversation. Sometimes it's hard to have a conversation in the middle of yoga class. (Of course.) But, if you can, still approaching it like they've made a conscious choice.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:55
It kind of goes back to your conversation with Becky too. There was a piece of it where they were talking about how, especially for neurodivergent folks, there's like a perception that they don't know what they're doing, but there's a wisdom and the reasons why people move or you know respond or behave in the way they do. So I like the coming at it from a perspective that there's a wisdom.
Jivana Heyman 55:18
Yeah, there definitely is. There's a wisdom in it, and in terms of yeah, the ways that are not just our thinking about stuff, but even the way our nervous systems approach things or respond. Usually, it's based on like what's best for us. The choices people make, I think, we can respect them more than we do. I mean sometimes, you know, it could be a misunderstanding. Like say, sometimes I find if I'm teaching and a student does something different, I think okay I didn't communicate that well, so I can clarify that I could repeat the instruction or say it a different way or I could demonstrate or I could ask them. So there's that piece, I guess, to make sure that there is clear communication happening, but beyond that, if they're making a choice by moving in a certain way that's different than what you had expected, if the communication is happening, then you can assume that it's a choice they've made. I would say. So first make sure that they're understanding, right? Are you speaking the same language, or do you need some support there?
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:20
Right, right.
Jivana Heyman 56:21
Like, is there something, maybe a word you use doesn't they don't understand? Like a lot of yoga terminology, you know. And I think what Becky was sharing about too, like yeah, sometimes to be just very specific. Some neurodivergent folks need that, like specificity around language, rather than something that's vague or abstract. So that could help, depending on what you know someone's issues are, I guess, or what their challenges are.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:47
Yeah, I think I really just appreciated the conversation you both had.
Jivana Heyman 56:51
Yeah, Becky's amazing. I know they talked about a few other things. They talked about giving people lots of information ahead of time, telling people what's going to happen in class, giving lots of options and trying to find different ways to communicate, offering that within the class. Like especially, I think they talked about how you're teaching online, you can tell people to respond. Like if they want, they can raise a hand, if they want to put it in the chat, like telling people specifically what they can and can't do is really helpful. I know there's a lot there. So I hope people, if you're interested in this work, you can reach out to Becky. We can put their contact information in the show notes and they shared during the interview a few of the offerings that they have for the community. They offer a lot of peer support, which is really nice, I think, especially for other neurodivergent yoga teachers, which is so sweet. I don't know. Again, I love that Becky is organizing the community in that way. It's just really such a nice offer.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:45
Yeah, we're grateful, Becky.
Jivana Heyman 57:47
Yes, thank you, Becky, and thank you. And it's great to be with you, Deanna. Thanks for being here.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:54
Oh, it's an honor and a privilege. So thank you.
Jivana Heyman 57:56
And thank you everyone for listening. And we'll catch you next time.
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:01
See you next time.
Jivana Heyman 58:02
Okay, bye.
Jivana Heyman 58:13
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement, to learn, to answer each other's questions, and to practice together. It's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need. And I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Souza leads the other. And it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org. There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
