Jivana Heyman 0:17
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, Chumash Land. And I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for joining me. In today's episode, I speak with Jo Stewart, who is the author of a new book, Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga: Adapting Practice for Accessibility, Neurodiversity, and Physical Support. It's an awesome book, and I got to write the foreword to it, so I definitely liked it. And Jo is a great person, and I hope you enjoy this conversation. Also, at the end, Deanna and I get a great question from a listener about grief and death and the AIDS epidemic, so I hope you'll stick around for that. All right, so here's my conversation with Jo Stewart.
Jivana Heyman 1:20
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Jivana Heyman 2:13
Okay, welcome everyone, and hi Jo! Thanks for being here. Hi.
Jo Stewart 2:18
Hi! It's so good to talk to you today.
Jivana Heyman 2:21
You too. Thanks for doing this.
Jo Stewart 2:23
Such a pleasure.
Jivana Heyman 2:24
Yeah, it's so good to see you. I know we were just together a few weeks ago in Australia. I know, and now we're on Zoom. So I feel like I've just talked to you recently.
Jo Stewart 2:35
Absolutely, yeah. After years of being internet friends only, we're back to being internet friends.
Jivana Heyman 2:41
I know, that's kind of sad! That's kind of sad. But anyway, I wonder if you could introduce yourself. I said a little bit before we started, but I wonder if you would just share maybe anything you'd want.
Jo Stewart 2:52
Sure. Yeah. So my name's Jo Stewart. I've got a little studio called Garden of Yoga in Melbourne. I teach Accessible Yoga. I teach aerial yoga with an accessibility focus. I also teach like, chill mat-based yoga and actually Pilates as well. So I teach a lot of different things, but I feel like at the heart of them, it's the same philosophy. And I also have my own podcast that I co-host with my husband Ron, called the Flow Artists Podcast, where you have been an honored guest many times. So I'm really excited to be on the other side today and hearing your questions.
Jivana Heyman 3:30
Yeah, I'm excited to be on the other side. I've loved being a guest at your podcast. I don't have a ton of questions for you. Mostly, I just want to talk about your book because I mean, really, that's the main reason we're here. I want to talk about Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga, which maybe people can't see unless we share this particular part of the video. Oh, you have it there too. There's the book.
Jo Stewart 3:52
Yeah, I finally have a copy!
Jivana Heyman 3:54
Yeah, you finally have a copy. So, Adapting Practice for Accessibility, Neurodiversity, and Physical Support. And I actually wrote the foreword, which was really fun. I was happy to do that. So I wonder if you could just share a little bit about it? Maybe you could kind of explain the book a little bit to people who don't know it.
Jo Stewart 4:12
Absolutely, and thank you so much for writing my foreword. Like, it was actually a really special moment for me to read it and to feel like someone else had really understood what I was trying to achieve with the book, because ultimately my goal with working with the aerial hammock is to make the practices of yoga more accessible for people, the physical practices, but also the subtle practices. I kind of feel like we've all got different bodies, we've all got different brains, different practices are going to work on us in different ways, and to have this really versatile prop just opens up so many possibilities to experience yoga, to experience your own body and your own mind. To be held and supported, but also to like move in different ways and to flow and experience play and pleasure. So I'm excited to share all of those different aspects of the practice. But often when I see aerial yoga shared online, and actually even in a lot of aerial yoga teacher trainings, it doesn't really bring in the philosophy. Like, it's more about the mechanics of using the hammock, and I wanted to reconnect this practice into the bigger, broader practice of yoga. And while the physical movements might be different, we might be in a chair, we might be on a mat, we might be in the hammock, like the ethics and the philosophy that ground these practices, bring it back into being yoga. And I worked with Patanjali's eight limbs as the aspect of yoga philosophy that I chose to focus on because, just like yoga practice, yoga philosophy is so broad and so expansive. And I felt like for this particular project, having something that already had a framework within it meant that I could just work with that framework versus something that's so esoteric and expansive and open-ended. Like, that's a lifetime of practice to explore those aspects.
Jivana Heyman 6:22
Yeah, no, I love that. I want to talk more about that philosophy piece, but before I do, I just want to touch on what you just said about the image of aerial yoga because I think people that are maybe new to this or new to your work might be just surprised by this in general. This idea of aerial yoga making yoga more accessible, and I just wonder if you could talk about that a little because I think that was my first surprise. You know, like I think, like you said, it's not just the image of aerial yoga, but it kind of feeds into that kind... I don't know if it's the fact that it was used for circus arts, you know, maybe, but also like it just feeds into that focus on flexibility and strength in asana. I think just the image out there of aerial yoga, and so I feel like you're making a you're making a real transformation, I think. I mean, I think you're transforming that practice in this book into something else. Looking at the... what do you call it, the hammock?
Jo Stewart 7:15
Yeah, I call it the aerial hammock.
Jivana Heyman 7:17
Aerial hammock as a prop, just like we might, you know, a chair for chair yoga or something like that. So that's what really got me excited about this book.
Jo Stewart 7:26
Absolutely, and I feel like that's where the magic is. Like just like a lot of the asana that we see shared online is like the more impressive looking things, like arm balances and extreme levels of flexibility. I think in the aerial yoga world it is even more so. Like, a lot of the videos we see, it's complex trick after complex trick flowing together. And I do want to acknowledge that a lot of aerial yoga moves do come from circus. And I think that people can still practice with self-love and use circus as a way to understand themselves, but it's a performance art form, so it's more about how that movement might look from the outside, even if it can be a source of self-expression from the inside. And I think that's the difference between circus aerials and aerial yoga. Like, I'm really focusing on how these practices make us feel, and I also... like, this is not just me. There's a whole community of people from different backgrounds. They're not all from yoga. There's occupational therapists. There's physiotherapists. There are actually a lot of people who do use the aerial hammock in a more supportive way, and I really want to shine a light on their work as well, and just show people the possibilities because a lot of what I teach translates directly from what I've learned in chair yoga to the hammock. But the chair is quite a fixed prop; like it's stable, it's solid, and that is actually one of its benefits because you can feel steady and grounded in it. The hammock moves, so like the chair, you can use it to bring the level of the floor up to the person. So if someone's working with like wrist or knee issues, you can like sit into the hammock and then lie down from there. And sometimes, like if say someone is in a wheelchair, that might be an assisted movement. So sometimes people bring a massage table that lifts and lowers underneath. There might be other people helping with support. So there's different ways that people can use this depending on their own levels of mobility and what they want to get out of it, but often the most simple poses, like the lying in the hammock, like a cocoon, feeling supported, and then feeling into how you can move your spine when suddenly you're not working against the solidity of the ground or gravity. So more movement possibilities become possible, kind of the way that when you're moving in water, and sometimes as well in terms of the joints of the body, whether it's the joints of the spine or wrists or knees. Because that joint is in an unloaded position, a movement that might be painful or inaccessible suddenly feels really good in the hammock, and people can reconnect to a feeling of like, safety and pleasure and freedom in their bodies in a way that wasn't possible without that support. And like that's really amazing to watch someone experience that and to see someone's range of possibilities open up, especially if someone is used to working with pain and with restricted movement. That's a really incredible thing to witness, and that is what I want to share.
Jivana Heyman 10:52
I mean, you did that so well. Like, this book, I just want to say... I mean, I read a lot of yoga books. I'm lucky that people usually send them to me. Sometimes they want me to review them or write little marketing blurbs for them, but you know, and a lot of them are great. But I have to say, your book was and is something really special. Like, you have a very thorough understanding of yoga, I'd say. So going back to yoga philosophy for a minute, but also the application in terms of the way you spoke about trauma-informed teaching and yoga for people with chronic pain, hypermobility, and other conditions like that. I know that you address that really beautifully in the book, and of course the book has a ton of actual practices, like actual poses, and there's lots of photos so that people can follow along, right? So it's kind of a very practical manual, also. I just think you did a beautiful job in general. I'm just gonna say.
Jo Stewart 11:47
Oh, thank you so much. It's so heartwarming to hear you say that. And I went to your books a lot for reference, especially when I had philosophy questions. So I really appreciate your input, whether it was deliberate or just through everything you've taught me over the years.
Jivana Heyman 12:07
Yeah, I mean, yeah, like you spoke about language, you talked about yeah, just so many issues, financial issues, and preparing it and caring for that hammock. I wondered if there's a little history you could give us because it's not that old, right? Like, aerial yoga itself is pretty recent, if I'm not mistaken. I think you said, was it just 20 years or something?
Jo Stewart 12:33
Oh well, actually, this is something that I find super fascinating, and actually something I've learned more about since I published the book. So as you know, the history of using props in yoga is almost as old as the practice of yoga itself. Like we see seals from the Indus Valley, where people are using a strap around the legs to aid with meditation. So, people have always used props to help support their yoga practice, and the use of suspended inversions, like often it's using a rope or even a tree to hang upside down, is actually also a lot older than what we might think. Like there are texts from the Middle Ages. There's texts that they found in the Mysore Palace of these amazing illustrations of people using ropes to hang upside down and support them in different ways. I believe that it was also used as an ascetic practice, like as a tapas practice. There's a practice called bat penance, which sounds like hanging upside down for a long time, which I do not endorse in modern day classes. I'm very much like, as soon as you feel the first hint that this is getting to be too much, that is when you want to make your exit. But I think people have used it as a transcendent practice in the past. And then of course Iyengar is quite famous for using the ropes wall, for using the ropes to support suspended inversions, and like you're saying, about 20 years ago, there was a bit of a resurgence. My original teacher, Christopher Harrison, founded this AntiGravity movement. Like, it was a dance troupe, and he was a dancer and a cheerleader, and had a lot of injuries. And he used it like as a performance art form. They actually were on a trip to Club Med and hanging out in a hammock relaxation area, and I think they just started playing around in the hammocks and realized that a lot of the aerial silks moves could be done in a hammock, and actually in circus as well. There's apparatus like a net or a sling, so it has been a performance art form, and then just around about, like you're saying, about 20 years ago, a few different teachers started to combine it with yoga, or started to write about it and share about it in a way that we can research. It might have been done before then. Michelle Dortignac, I'm not sure how to pronounce her name, Unnata aerial yoga is her movement style. Rebekah Leach wrote some really great aerial yoga books that I've referred to a lot, and she described how it was like a zeitgeist thing. Like these people didn't necessarily know each other, but they all started to work on combining yoga and aerials and adapting yoga poses with the hammocks, and that's when it, I guess, had a bit of a resurgence. And a lot of the media sharing about this time kind of shared it like a novelty thing. Like, celebrities were doing it, like Pink was performing in a concert with an aerial hammock, and it kind of had like a moment in the spotlight. And I really want to shift that focus from it being performance novelty new thing to really opening people's eyes to how much this has actually been a part of yoga history and practice for a lot longer. And the more that we align it back into the practice of yoga, I feel like that is really what gives it the ability to help more people and to have longevity as a serious or respected practice beyond something that you see in an Instagram video.
Jivana Heyman 16:10
Well, I mean, you've done a great job, I think, with that. I wanted to go back to philosophy a little bit because, I think it was... I'm trying to remember now. I think it was the section on pratyahara that really touched me in this book because I think it was, you know, I hadn't really thought of the hammock that way. That the way you could use a prop to support that practice in yoga, which I think pratyahara sense withdrawal which maybe, I'm sure most people listening are familiar with, it's kind of like sometimes referred to as like the forgotten limb of the eight limbs of yoga. You know, it somehow seems to be missing from a lot of our practices. We don't often actively practice it or tell people that we are. We might be doing it in a yoga class, but not actually say this is pratyahara. I think it kind of ends up like, falling through the cracks a bit. And I think it's such an important practice because actually, if we could talk about the eight limbs for a minute, I'll just say that the way that Patanjali structured them and the way they're presented in the Yoga Sutras is that he actually ends his discussion of the first five limbs there at the end of chapter two, and then goes into the last three limbs in chapter three and says these are the advanced practices, basically. He's basically telling us that meditation, concentration, meditation, samadhi are like the really hard ones, and that the first five limbs are like how we ever prepare to get to that place where we can be with our minds. And I feel like pratyahara is so important because it's something we can do actively, or at least work towards that might be a little more accessible than meditation. So that was a long way of saying that, I think you do a great job, and maybe you could talk about that a little bit.
Jo Stewart 17:57
Absolutely, yeah. And I think it is one of the things that the aerial hammock really does make more accessible because it gives you so many more options, and it's so interesting because Patanjali was writing about this 1000s of years ago. So there wasn't the internet, there wasn't the same level of sensory overwhelm that we all feel like we might be coming to from the busyness of our every lives, but often, like obviously, it was an issue for people throughout history. And just as you enter the yoga studio, I think that there's already a sense of coming into your own time and your own space, and the hammock adds to that. Like, as you lie in it, it feels like you're being held and supported in a cocoon, and that can be a very nurturing feeling. The fabric gives you a sense of visual space as well. You can see the light shining through it, but you're not as aware of being in a room surrounded by a lot of other people, which for a lot of people can be its own level of overwhelm. Like, everyone's got their own level of comfort with how other people in a room might affect them, and so the ability to find your own space and to be with others, I think is really powerful. I do work with a lot of people who have sensory processing needs, and also people who have PTSD, or another reason why closing their eyes might not be comfortable and relaxing and soothing for them. Like, that might feel scary, or it might not help them feel safe, but the ability to use the fabric as a soft screen from the room around, where you could open up a little gap and peek out, you can look through the fabric and see the light shining through, but you don't have the distraction of everyone else in the room and everything happening around you in the same way. I feel like that can be really powerful on a sensory level as well. I've described the feeling of like, a soft cocoon, but also some people really respond well to like a deep pressure sensation, like a firmer pressure from the fabric, like a firm hug, a weighted blanket, that kind of feeling. And you can use the fabric to really feel it pressing into your body in a way that can help a lot of people feel safe and held, and to regulate.
Jivana Heyman 20:27
Well, I think you've touched on a few issues there. I just want to say so like that feels very trauma-informed, not only feeling protected, but also getting that hug and secure feeling. Pressure is also very grounding, which we talk about a lot in Accessible Yoga, finding poses that offer that can be really helpful for people who've experienced trauma, but also for neurodivergent folks, like you said. The sensory issues can be a challenge. Just being distracted by what's happening in the room or feeling watched, either one, can be a distraction. So I just want to echo that. I mean, I think maybe I don't know if you mentioned it early on when you talk about those conditions, but I know that you address it later when you talk about pratyahara. But I just feel like it's such a beautiful way, I mean, you're basically describing how you're making the practice more accessible using that prop. So anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Jo Stewart 21:14
Yeah, no, no, no, no. Thank you, thank you. And I think it's one of those things. It's like everything I've learned in trauma-informed training and Accessible Yoga Training, working with say a diagnosed condition, it's like all of the things that help with that, help everyone. People might not have the same sensory needs that they feel to such a strong level, but I think that we all can feel a sense of like, oh, this feels really good in my body, or oh, that sensation is making me feel uncomfortable. And I think it's really powerful to offer people the choice to go towards the things that are going to help them and work for them.
Jivana Heyman 21:53
It shows the power of pratyahara, actually, because basically that's what we're trying to do, right? Is withdraw back, come back to ourselves. I think withdraw is almost a negative term, but it's like just reconnect inwardly rather than be so distracted and outwardly focused. And I think that it's something that we all kind of enjoy, but maybe at different levels, right?
Jo Stewart 22:17
Absolutely, and it can be a practice in itself to figure out, like, what do I need at this moment? Like, what level of sensory input is going to feel overwhelming and what is going to feel soothing? The other sense that the aerial hammock can help us work with in some really unique ways is working in the vestibular system. So I don't know if like everyone would see proprioception and interoception as a sense, but our vestibular system is in our inner ear, and it helps to regulate our physical balance. But there's also an emotional balance layer to it as well, and like the grounding feeling, or like a gentle forward and back motion, like you can get gently swinging the hammock, or in something like a rocking chair. For most people, that's a soothing feeling. But some people need vestibular stimulation to feel balanced and regulated, and so that could be upside down. It could be like random swinging movements. It could be spinning, and often there's not that many opportunities to experience those types of sensations, like in everyday life, like we can't go on a roller coaster every day. I have people who come to class who hang upside down off their own beds or in other ways that they improvise in their house because they know, like they can just feel that that's something that their brains and bodies need. So it's so fun when they come to class, and you can just tell like, they are loving it to finally have that, oh like this is what I need I can just hang out and decompress. One of my students described it as like, "My brain does a big sigh of relief."
Jivana Heyman 23:56
Hmm. Wow, that's amazing. I know that it can be challenging to to create a setup, and not everyone has access to that. So I don't know, maybe that's the biggest obstacle? Is like finding a teacher like you. I mean, because like if you were around here, I know a bunch of people I would send to you, but you're all the way in Australia.
Jo Stewart 24:18
Oh, thank you for thinking of me for your local students! It is a bit of a financial cost to have a home set up, and there are portable rigs that you can buy, and it is some of the things that I address in the book. I talked to a professional rigger, his name was Tiny. I asked like, I see rigs online for like a couple of $100 and then I see other ones that are over $1,000. Like, what's the difference? And there definitely are differences in quality, and you do want to look for something that's properly rated for 200 kgs. There's like a dropping load, which is like 2000 kgs, and then the stable load is 200, because a body moving in space generates more force than someone being steady. And actually, the poses that I share in the book and that I usually do in class don't really involve drops, so it's not that same level of force, but obviously you want to stay safe and have equipment that is safe for you. You can also install, like depending on what your house is built like, and like if you are able to install things into your ceiling, that's an option as well. But it is not as easy as finding a chair, like I'd say that you're correct. That is the biggest barrier to starting an aerial practice. Just having the setup so you can do it safely.
Jivana Heyman 25:50
And what else have we missed? Is there anything else you feel like you want to share about the book? Because I feel like I think we gave a good overview. Yeah. Any other thoughts about it?
Jo Stewart 25:59
I would love to share about some of the people's stories who I've shared in the book, because I share from my own experience, and if there's something that's not my personal experience, I've tried to go to an evidence base or someone who has lived experience of that particular condition. And one of the one people I want to talk about, her name is Maggie Turner-Miguel. She's amazing. She's 77 and she has her own aerial yoga hammock at home, and she was one of my models.
Jivana Heyman 25:59
Yeah, I was going to say, I think I've seen her in your book, and I saw her at your book launch too.
Jo Stewart 26:17
Yeah! Because we do not usually see older people practicing aerial yoga online. But actually, I found it to be so helpful working with people as they get older, and balance is a big thing because obviously bone density changes as we age, but also our ability to balance changes as we get older for lots of different reasons. And you can use the hammock to help with balance in so many ways. Like you can hold it with both hands for standing poses, even poses where you lift one foot off the ground, and that's also working on grip strength, which is another good thing to work on as we get older. You can wrap the hammock around your back and hold it with your hands, and that's another layer of support. So different movements, where maybe like those one-legged balancing poses, or even something like a lunge or a warrior pose, where perhaps someone's knees aren't comfortable working without support, but then when your arms are carrying some of the weight and you can control how much you bend into your knee, like you can work that pose in a safe way, that's like the right level of challenge for your body and build strength from there. And upper body strength as well, if you're carrying some of your weight with your hands.
Jivana Heyman 28:06
And was that Maggie's experience? Is that what you were going to share?
Jo Stewart 28:09
Her experience was a bit different because she is very mobile and very fit. Like she's been a yoga teacher. She gardens a lot, so she does not really need those supportive poses as much. She loves the inversions. She loves feeling like strong in her body and like experiencing that joy of movement. But like she has friends and she teaches people, and she has also experienced like different injuries and health conditions over time. So, I think that she is an example of someone who is proactively working on active aging and doing these practices to help her feel good in her body for as long as possible.
Jivana Heyman 29:04
Yeah, it's amazing, and there's a lot of pictures of her in the book, right? I think I see her here. Is that her on the cover?
Jo Stewart 29:10
Yeah, she's on the cover. Yep. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 29:12
It's pretty impressive what she can do. Yeah.
Jo Stewart 29:15
The other model in the book, like Ron is in there as well!
Jivana Heyman 29:18
I know your husband, Rane. There he is, upside down.
Jo Stewart 29:22
Wendy was another lived experience contributor in my book, and she is autistic and has ADHD, and also has experience of being the largest person in the yoga room, and speaks about the feelings that came with that, the feeling of being singled out, even when the teacher was trying to help, like not feeling comfortable in that space, and also the sensory overwhelm of the hard surfaces, the mirrors, the lights, the other people close by, actually taking it into a dissociative state in this practice that ideally is all about coming home to yourself and feeling calmer and more centered and more present. So like, the opposite effect just from that environment. And yeah, her kind of sharing about those experiences and the pratyahara stuff that we were talking about before, how much that was helpful for her to enhance her interoception in the class, like to feel safe to feel being in her own body as she does the movements. But also, like she's an artist, and so she shared about how even just if she was in a hyper focused state outside of her yoga class, she was more in tune with things like, oh, I need to go to the toilet, or I need to get up and move around because I've been hunched over for ages. So it's been a benefit that's kind of helped her feel more balanced in a lot of other aspects of life, which ideally is what we want from our yoga practice, right? Like, we want to have this microcosm where we can learn about ourselves and then bring that knowledge back out into the world to enhance the rest of our lives.
Jivana Heyman 31:05
Totally, that's great. What a great story! And I wanted to ask you about you, about how you're doing. Well, I guess I just want to know how you feel about the book being out there and how that process has been.
Jo Stewart 31:18
It's been an interesting process. Like, I really enjoyed the process of writing the book and having it out in the world has been challenging in some ways. Like, you spoke to me about this before it came out because it feels like there's this big build up, and then it's like, okay I did an Instagram post about it.
Jivana Heyman 31:42
I know and then it just kind of like... oh. You know. I mean, that's at least my experience too. There's so much work that goes into a book and it takes years, and then it's out there, and then there's kind of nothing. Like, hopefully people are reading it, but you don't really know. Maybe occasionally you get some reaction, but I know. It's really something. I don't know if people realize that.
Jo Stewart 32:07
There's also been a lot of shipping delays to Australia, like for a really sad reason because of like the war going on at the moment. So a lot of global things are in chaos. So my book being slow to arrive is like a very minor, like that's a minor inconvenience compared to like the impact it's really having on people's lives. But that's also been a bit weird because I don't actually have copies of the book to sell at my studio at the moment, even though people are asking about it. So I'm looking forward to... I think I'll do an in-person book launch like in spring, maybe the end of August and the start of September, and I think that will be that kind of celebration accumulation.
Jivana Heyman 32:49
Just spring Australia time, just in case everyone's confused.
Jo Stewart 32:52
Oh yeah, yeah!
Jivana Heyman 32:53
That's great. Yeah, I mean that's it. To look at it over a longer period of time, I think, that's what... like a book launch is an exciting moment, but really, a book I think has an impact over years, really. And that's really the beauty of it too is that it's something that can be available for a really long time, and you don't necessarily even know or see what the impact is, right? It just kind of ripples out there.
Jo Stewart 33:18
The other thing that's kind of coincided with my book launch, which has been really weird and just kind of intense, is seen the effect that AI is already having on the publishing world and the book world. Like, I saw that you shared an article about how all the best-selling yoga books on Instagram, I mean, on Amazon right now, AI written chair yoga books that were probably trained on your work.
Jivana Heyman 33:46
Most of them. I'm not sure all, but I would say yeah. If you do like a search of chair yoga on Amazon, all the top ones are AI, and you can tell because they all look alike. There's almost never an author. There's not even an author name associated with them, and then there is an author, you really can't find that person. I've actually tried to look into it and see who are these people, and I don't think they're real people. It's yes, kind of shocking.
Jo Stewart 34:13
Yeah, it's very disconcerting. Like, how it seems like... it's a perception thing, but like reading an article online, I already read that with my AI filter goggles on. Like you can kind of tell when something is AI written, but there's something about a physical book that has this other level of trust associated with it that actually I think we also have to look at with a critical eye now because it doesn't necessarily mean that a person wrote it.
Jivana Heyman 34:42
I know it's made me want to write a chair yoga book because I have, of course, my Accessible Yoga book is but mostly chair yoga. But I was thinking maybe I should just do like a separate chair yoga book just to have one there that's written by a human.
Jo Stewart 34:55
Yeah, I would love a new chair yoga book! That would be great.
Jivana Heyman 34:59
Yeah, well. I also mostly was thinking about couch yoga. I often, for many of the reasons you just described about the hammock, I feel like that way about a couch personally. But what I am working on this year is my Yoga Meditation book, and that's been also something I've talked about through the podcast. And I'm going to keep talking about it because it's coming out, hopefully, in October. So I'm just going through that process again. (So exciting!) Yeah, thanks. But it's that same process again of kind of like all this energy and all this energy building up, and then just knowing that it just will stop. You know, it's just, okay, it's out there. Just let it go. It's kind of like raising a child and then they just leave. You know, they move out. It's like okay, take care of yourself! Anyway, not such a great example. What about... I want to know how you're taking care of yourself. So one of the other themes in this podcast season is balancing self-care and service. And I just wondered if you have thoughts about that, of how you do that personally. I know I got to spend a lot of time with you, and I know you're very busy and you're teaching a lot. So I'm just curious how you do that as a really active yoga teacher?
Jo Stewart 36:06
So actually, one thing that I found has been very helpful for me personally is acupuncture. Like it's such a passive practice. Like you just show up, they take your pulse, they talk about what's going on, and then, like you know, put the needles in, and I just settle into what feels like the deepest meditation for 45 minutes, and then leave. And I love it, and I feel like it's one of those practices...
Jivana Heyman 36:35
Me too! Did you know that I go all the time as one of my main self-care practices. I love acupuncture. Yeah.
Jo Stewart 36:40
And it's great as well because it doesn't matter how exhausted you might be when you arrive; like you still have energy to lie on a heated couch and meditate. Yeah, and I think sometimes I do... like, I love practicing yoga, but it's not necessarily what I do for balance when it's something that I do every day for work, and I think a lot of teachers can identify with this. Even in your self practice, it is very challenging not to slide into preparing for your teaching. Like you might be doing a sequence, and then like you're getting out your notebook to write it down.
Jivana Heyman 37:19
I don't even pretend anymore.
Jo Stewart 37:24
Yeah, it's for a different reason. It's not just for you, and like that is the self-care seva that you're talking about. So other types of movement that I do as a movement practice that feels more balancing for my body is I love to swim, and then I also love to sit in the spa and the sauna. And I think, like acupuncture, that can be my meditation time. I guess it's a sensory experience that facilitates that state of mind for me. And I've actually, like, I'm 45 now, so I am deliberately doing more strength work, so me and Ron do our Sunday morning strength work together, and like that's it.
Jivana Heyman 38:07
And I know he's doing a big race. I just want to say good luck, Rane!
Jo Stewart 38:11
Oh, I'll let him know! It's coming up really soon. It's coming up at the start of August.
Jivana Heyman 38:15
Yeah, I'm very excited for him. But yeah, actually, I think that you touched on the really important things that are so practical, and I'm not sure we've gotten there in these conversations over the last couple, you know, podcast episodes. Which is like practicing asana, in particular, may not be the way you care for yourself if you're teaching yoga all day. I mean, for me, it's like I I have to do my own pranayama and meditation, but my asanas, I think I approach them a little differently than I used to. I think teaching does that. It just shifts your relationship to asana practice. But also, I love those. Acupuncture is huge for me, and of course, strength training and other exercise. I mean, you know, I run and bike constantly. I haven't been swimming so much anymore, but maybe now that it's getting warmer here. I might get back in the ocean. It's a little scary.
Jo Stewart 39:04
I'm lucky that I've got a really lovely pool a short walk from my house, so it makes swimming easy.
Jivana Heyman 39:10
Well, I have the ocean, but there's a lot of sharks, and so I'm a little paranoid about that!
Jo Stewart 39:14
And I feel like the weather window to swim in the ocean is a lot different than the weather window to swim in an indoor pool where you can have a sauna afterwards.
Jivana Heyman 39:22
I know. I could join a pool, I guess. I just like being out in the ocean. It's just such an amazing space, but it still has to be warm enough. And it's funny the Pacific here doesn't really warm up that much. I got to swim when I was there, actually. When I was in Australia, I swam in the ocean a few times and it was incredible.
Jo Stewart 39:42
And you saw dolphins, right, while you were swimming?
Jivana Heyman 39:44
And I well, I see them here actually quite a bit. When I was there, I don't know if I saw them.
Jo Stewart 39:49
Sometimes you see them at Byron Bay.
Jivana Heyman 39:50
Oh yeah, there's a lot there. It was just... anyway, just beautiful.
Jo Stewart 39:55
And so the other practice that I do for self-care, which is not necessarily a movement practice, but it's my painting practice - and I've been doing this since I was about six - with my teacher Richard Liddicut, and it's Sumi-e and Shodo painting, so ink brush painting, and it is like a meditation. And it's not necessarily like... I do sometimes exhibit my art and sometimes sell my art, but I'm not going to this class with the goal of making something to hang on the wall, like I'm absolutely going for the state of mind, and as another way into meditation. And it begins from the ritual of mixing the ink, like with the sumi, the ink sticks, and the sazuri, the ink stone, and the smell, and like that rhythmic action. Because I've been doing it for such a long time, like it really helps me drop into that state of mind. And like, what we're saying about teaching yoga, this is not something that I teach, so I don't get into that headspace of planning or making it about something that I'm going to share with other people. Like, it really is just for me.
Jivana Heyman 41:01
Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I love that. It's beautiful.
Jo Stewart 41:06
Actually, like I'm all about the self-care, because I've thought of another thing. I feel like being organized with food is another important self-care thing, and it's kind of boring, but even like doing a bit of meal prep on a Sunday, like having the veggies all like sliced or grated or whatever, so it's just that little bit easier to kind of add a wider variety of different veggies to every meal. Or I guess like, planning the week to take that stress, probably off Rane, because I normally teach in the evening, so he makes the dinner.
Jivana Heyman 41:42
Oh okay, well that's nice for his self care, then.
Jo Stewart 41:46
Yeah, it's kind of like setting yourself up to like ease the stress later on in the week by like making those meal decisions and kind of getting yourself organized earlier on.
Jivana Heyman 41:56
Yeah. Well, also I love that how, in a relationship your self-care can have a big impact on the other person, in a either positive or negative way. So it's like, you know, it's like I have to be careful that my self-care doesn't mean that there's more of a burden on my husband. And especially when the kids were younger, I mean, it was always like, you know, I couldn't just go take care of myself when I had a responsibility. And I think that's one of the challenges. I mean, relationship on the other hand can help. You know, it can give you space potentially to have more time.
Jo Stewart 42:25
And like what you're saying is so true because the flip side of that is if the other person in the relationship is not taking care of themselves, then it's like you taking care of them. So it can be out of balance in both directions.
Jivana Heyman 42:40
Yeah, and I find, I mean, I think you all have been together a long time too, but I think Matt and I've been together now for over 33 years, and it's always like constantly changing balance and dynamic, you know, where one of us maybe needs more support or the other. So it's kind of almost day to day, and sometimes month to month that like one of us is struggling more and just needs more time and more space. So, again, it's a lot easier now that our kids have moved out! But, it is something that's interesting to consider, I think, in terms of this question of self-care, it's not just yourself, but also your other primary relationships -- which can be a burden or a support, like caring for children or caring for older parents. You know, it's really something. Anyway, okay, Jo, I don't want to keep you forever. But anything else that you wanted to share about it? I don't know if you have more thoughts for me.
Jo Stewart 43:37
I think just flowing on from, like, this is something that I've really learnt from you, and something I think is really important: sometimes people use a practice like yoga to focus inwards, and that's really important, and we need that. But ultimately, these practices that fill us up and give us energy and give us clarity - redirecting that out back into our communities and community care - it's just as important, and it's almost another aspect of taking care of ourselves. Like, if we are only focused on ourselves, we might feel really isolated and really disconnected. And I think a lot of people feel that way just because of everything going on in the world right now. Like, it's very easy to feel overwhelmed and disheartened and even heartbroken. So the intentional reconnection to the people close to you and around you, because there are a lot of like, really big things going on that we can't necessarily have a lot of personal impact on. I mean, we can try, but I feel like sometimes doing something tangible to someone within your community and someone close to you, or maybe like a member of a community that's been affected by like just everything going on in the world, can help us feel like we are able to make a positive impact in the world. And I think that you are a really wonderful example of how that's possible. Putting it into words, like often when I am feeling just at a loss, just like what do I do? Like, I've gone to your work, and like the stuff that you share online and the stuff that you share in the book has helped me feel inspired and know that there is something that I can do to both help myself feel better, but by making a positive impact somewhere else. So, like, I thank you so much for this gift to me personally and this gift to the world, and this reminder of like, this is what this practice is about. It's something that we can do for ourselves, but it's also something that we can do for our communities.
Jivana Heyman 46:02
Yeah. Wow. Thank you for saying that. And I totally agree. I think even when I ask that question, self-care and service, part of me thinks it's not really different, right? It's just like two sides of the same coin. Which is how are you using the energy you have? You know, I think that I do like to think about it that way, especially with yoga being a prana building practice, and then how do you direct that to yourself or to others? It's not different. Or you can think of that prana as love too. You know what I mean? Like, like I think that's what you're getting at. Like, how can you love yourself and others through spiritual practice, which is really what it's for? I mean, that's ultimately the goal. I mean, physical health is great and energy is excellent, but in the end, I think really what we're talking about is this bigger issue of - I don't know - spirituality? Like, who are we? Why are we here? And what is the purpose of our lives? And I do think that gets right to that question. How do you use the energy that you have?
Jo Stewart 47:00
Absolutely, and I love the idea of seeing it as love. Like, how do I show love to myself? How do I send that outwards? Like, that is such a beautiful idea.
Jivana Heyman 47:09
Yeah, I mean, isn't that all we can do, right? I mean, we can think about love in lots of forms. Like, I was thinking about when we were talking about relationships, there's that love, that loving connection. It's like, am I being kind and supportive today, or am I the one kind of needing that today? Or you know, am I preparing food? That's like a way of loving somebody, of making food for them, or making sure that they're cared for in some way. Teaching them yoga. I think teaching yoga is a way of sharing love and loving people. I mean, isn't that what you're doing with your students? Is just loving them in different ways.
Jo Stewart 47:47
Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like to hold space for someone to love themselves in your class, whether that's like feeling into what their bodies need or just like doing something that feels good, is like a really beautiful aspect of this practice that I don't necessarily... like, I haven't really experienced that in any of my other jobs. I used to work in hospitality, so I've experienced the like making food for people, and it's very interesting. Like, you don't necessarily see the best side of people when they're hungry or they want a coffee first thing in the morning, but you see a really beautiful side of people when they come to yoga practice, and people give you so much appreciation and gratitude, and that's like very... it's such a privilege, and I'm so grateful for that.
Jivana Heyman 48:34
It really is. All right. Well, thanks, Jo. Thanks for talking with me, and thanks for this great book. And say hi to Rane, and I'll hopefully see you both soon.
Jo Stewart 48:44
Oh, thank you, Jivana, and thank you so much for your support all the way along the writing journey. Like, you've been so encouraging, and you've just given me so much great advice. And the forward is really beautiful. I am so grateful for every step along the way that you've supported me, thank you so much.
Jivana Heyman 49:05
You're welcome. All right, thank you. Bye.
Jivana Heyman 49:18
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Jivana Heyman 50:12
Hey, welcome back, everyone. Hi, Deanna. How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:15
Hello, Jivana. I'm good. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 50:17
I'm good. I'm really good. Nice to talk to you, and yeah, what's going on? Do you want to share anything before we talk about this episode?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:26
Um, you know, not much to share over here. My time in Germany is coming to an end. You know, six months goes by quickly, and it just it's always fascinating the passage of time as you get older. Like time goes faster.
Jivana Heyman 50:39
It does. They say that our experience of time actually changes as we age. So, I think it's a real thing.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:47
It's yeah. It's a lot of practice going on too to like be in this moment and not you know look ahead. So yeah, it's a it's a big week. And how are things in your world?
Jivana Heyman 50:57
Well, it's just exciting that you had that opportunity to spend so much time in Germany, it's pretty incredible. I'm good. I'm in the middle of the Accessible Yoga for Older Adults course. I don't know. Let's see, by the time this comes out, I think it still might be going on. But it's so much fun. I love that topic as I get old! But mostly just struck by, you know, as I research it, it's just incredible what yoga offers. It's almost mind-boggling. Like all the benefits, you know, on every level. It's just, it's everyone should be doing yoga!
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:34
It's so true. I mean, it's so true. I think every single time, like I go through something mentally or emotionally, or it just like, experience something unpleasant, it always comes back to yoga, right? Because sometimes if everything's fine and you're practicing, it feels, you know, that's one thing. But then you know when stuff hits the fan, so to speak, it's like oh this is what the practice is all about. Oh here we are. This is why I've been practicing, and it's not pleasant. It's not always easy.
Jivana Heyman 52:06
No, but it's a great support for that. Well, what I always say, it's good to practice when you're feeling good, so that it's there to support you when you're not. You know, it's nice to have that foundation kind of fall back on when you need it, so yeah, I feel very lucky. Anyway, I want to talk more about this episode with Jo. You know, she's created a really great book, and well, she's awesome. I mean, I appreciate Jo and all the work she does, and she's been a great supporter of mine for a long time. She's had me on her podcast many times, and I got to write the foreword for the book and kind of support her a little bit as she was writing, which was fun. I got to read some early drafts, but yeah, do you have any thoughts about it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:53
It was such a treat to listen to Jo. She's so uplifting, and I thought it was super surprising too to just learn more about aerial yoga, because there are some misconceptions, because you think about it and you do think of like acrobatics, right?
Jivana Heyman 53:09
Yeah,
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:10
But I appreciated what you was saying about a hammock and like it's almost, in some ways, it is a mobility tool. I practiced in a hammock once before. It was on a press trip, it was a one-on-one session. I was very grateful for it, right? And it wasn't what I expected at all. And that, yeah, in a lot of ways, it was really supportive in the way that like a mat or a floor wasn't. And so that really resonated with me, what she was saying.
Jivana Heyman 53:39
Yeah, I mean, props are incredible, and we need them. So I love that. I love the idea that the hammock is, you know, like another support for the body as we move in asana and in other ways. Like, I love the way she describes it, supporting not just the body but also the mind for neurodivergent folks, and I think that's one of the focuses... well, I know that's one of the focuses of her book, and what she does so well. I mean, she's a great writer, and she really explores that. Definitely opened my mind to it, and it's kind of reminds me of the... it's like a soft chair, that can also be kind of like a bed or a couch. You know, it's like this support that can really be there for you in so many different ways. So anyway, if people are interested, I hope they'll get her book and support her work. Check out her podcast. And it was so fun.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:31
Did you try it in Australia?
Jivana Heyman 54:34
I didn't. She wanted to create a time for me, but it just didn't work out. I don't know what was happening. I think I just landed and I was just like not up for it. I was like, not ready, but it's too bad. I should have. Maybe the next time! I loved being in Australia so much that I actually think I want to go back. So I'm gonna try and plan another trip to visit again. It was great to spend time with Jo and Rane and all the people I met in Australia, actually, I just really grateful for that experience. So, yeah, so it was amazing, and it's a great book. And I know she'll write some more. I have a feeling, I'm hopeful. She has a lot to say. So, yeah, what else?
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:15
Well, we have a voicemail this week, and it's quite a a big topic, I'd say. So I'm going to leave some space for you to respond. So, this is from Nicole Smith. I'm going to go ahead and share that now.
Nicole 55:31
Hi, my name is Nicole. My pronouns are she/her, and I'm in the UK. I'm loving this season of the podcast and have so many questions. Jivana, you've talked about the AIDS epidemic and the loss of so many loved ones. How did this impact your view of death, and what role, if any, did yoga play in that, and how you manage grief? Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 55:54
Oh my goodness, that is such a great question. I mean, well, first of all, I just want to thank Nicole for that question because I love talking about grief and death and the AIDS epidemic because it was such a big part of my life and most people aren't interested. I don't know. I think a lot of people just don't want to talk about it. It's kind of sad or talking about death feels morose, you know. So I think we have a tendency to avoid it and think that it's not... you know, especially in the yoga world, it's like we're so focused on the positive and uplifting stuff that... I don't know. I hesitate to approach it and talk about as much as I want to. So thank you for this opportunity, Nicole! I have a lot of thoughts. I mean, for people who don't know, I guess I could just say that what happened for me is that I'm a gay man, and I came out in came out in 1984, which was just right in the middle of the AIDS epidemic. And I was a teenager, but you know, I was meeting people, I was going out, and everyone was like either just panicked about HIV and AIDS, or literally was was sick or dying because at that point there were almost no medications. It was early days, and AIDS was impacting the gay community, mostly. I was in New York at the time. I was actually in college in Ohio, but my family was in New York, and so I would just spend a lot of time between them, between the two places. And I started attending ACT UP New York meetings, where I really got to get a great education from activists and see how they were responding to this moment of intense illness and death in the community. And I think what struck me the most was not... I think what people see when you look back at those videos of that time, and when you think about ACT UP, if you know about it as a direct action group, they're known for their anger, you know, and there was a sense of anger. But what I think is really missing from that picture is the grief and love that was there in the community for each other, and the mutual support that I found. That's what struck me the most, was that it was actually one of like the most, I don't know like, I hate to say positive, but like positive environments I've ever been in, of like people supporting each other and working through their differences. Does that make sense? I can just pause and ask you before I go on. I'm just curious what you think.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:57
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I know it probably sounds weird to say it, but I could absolutely see how like the beauty of community comes out about like, you know, it's born in fire.
Jivana Heyman 59:11
Yeah, actually a lot of the leaders of that group were lesbians. Actually, women who had I think experience from civil rights movement. I don't know where it came from, from like the women's rights movement, who came in and kind of just shared like the fundamental concepts around civil disobedience and community building, how to run meetings. Those meetings were run through consensus, and they were huge. We're talking about hundreds of people with consensus. Do you know what that means? That means that everyone had to agree. That would take hours to agree on just one thing, and it blew my mind. I'd never seen anything like it. I'd never seen the kind of level of care and patience required to do that, and especially when everyone was hurting so much and and angry, individually, and yet be able to work together in a way that felt productive and respectful. Mostly, I mean, not all the time, but like 99% of the time, it was just really incredible. And those people, really, those activists were teaching me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:30
Jivana, may I ask, what does that look like? Having hundreds of people, and like, what does consensus building look like in that space? I know you don't have to dive too deeply, but curious.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:41
It is interesting.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:42
We're so divisive right now. I'm just wondering what lessons can be brought forward.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:46
Yeah, I mean, it was... well, let me just say that it took a commitment on everyone's part to listen to each other, I think that's the main thing. Because because everyone there had a common goal of addressing this epidemic and wanting to have support for our community, wanting there to be attention and resources spent on figuring out how to support people with AIDS, and you know, obviously to support the treatment and research and everything around it. Everyone, we had this similar goal, so I think that's why it worked. So I don't know how to create that today in the world, but I think when you have a similar goal, and also that's the part I keep wanting to say. Even though we were all maybe angry, there was a feeling of mutual support and care and love, actually, for people who were struggling. So everyone was there because either they themselves had HIV or AIDS, or they loved someone with HIV or AIDS. And I mean that was the motivating force, was care and love. And I think that's true in almost all activist movements. And I think the media twists things to support the status quo and to make activists look like they're angry only, and to kind of miss the whole point, which is that most activism grows out of love, and care, and concern. You know, people that are marching on the streets, what is motivating them to be there? Usually it's because they're really hurting, or they're really caring about someone who's hurting, and they want some resolution or solution or change to occur that will support people in a positive way. So I just feel like activism in general gets a bad rap. But to answer your question, I think it just took a lot of patience. I mean, the way it looked is that you know everyone would get a chance to speak. Anyone who had something to say would be heard, and until there were no more concerns, we couldn't agree on something. And I was young, like I was coming in. I think I probably was 18 when I started there, and I was a shy person, so I wouldn't speak. I would just kind of sit back and watch. And I think because in a large group, that's true. A lot of people mostly are just watching and observing. But there were some really loud voices. People like Larry Kramer -- people might know that name, he's very famous. He's known for creating ACT UP, and that might be true. But to be honest, he was just like the most famous person there in that world. But there are so many incredible people doing the work. As I said, especially these women who I found to be really compelling in their understanding of politics and community building, and that's mostly what I learned is community building, and I would say related to Accessible Yoga, which wasn't really part of the question, but I just want to add this that to me, Accessible Yoga was literally like what I was taught through AIDS activism and how I brought that into my yoga teaching and practice. And I want to kind of just give a shout out to Matthew Remski who brought that to my attention. I don't know if people know him. He speaks on conspirituality and politics and stuff, and he's the one who came to me at one point. He's like, "You do realize that you basically have integrated ACT UP with yoga in this movement of Accessible Yoga." Which I really appreciated, I hadn't really ever just seen it that clearly before. And I don't know if it's 100% true, but I think I was definitely bringing a lot of the tools that I was trained in, in terms of community building, and making change on a grassroots level that I saw these incredible activists doing.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:55
I think the question though was about grief, wasn't it? (Mmm hmm.) You know, there's a lot of ways to deal with grief, and one is through action, and I think that's what ACT UP was offering me, was a way to, first of all, share communally. You know, sharing grief in a group is also really effective, to be around other people that are struggling. Just like the reason you have a funeral service after someone passes, you want to come together with other people that feel that loss and commiserate in a way. And I think that's what ACT UP offered to me, but also as an outlet in terms of action that we could do to make change, to speak up on behalf of the people that I personally was connecting with, and there were so many. I always mention my best friend Kurt, but I had many other friends. I can think of my friend Peter, who had a really special place in my life, and you know, and so many others. I mean, there are just so many others. But I don't know -- what do you do with grief? You know, grief is like that visitor that will never go away. You know, it's just like they're hanging around all the time and dragging you down. What I noticed through yoga is that I was holding into my body, and that I was basically making myself sick. I think it was like survivor's guilt. Is that the word?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:06:35
You wrote that in your new book, right?
Jivana Heyman 1:06:43
I do write about a lot in the new book, yeah. So hopefully, people who are interested can read about it there. I do share about some of this. Well, that's what got me to go back to yoga. I went back to yoga in 1990 because I had moved to San Francisco, and I found myself just feeling literally sick. I was having like stomach problems, and it was I think directly related to grief. And my teacher Kazuko, her name was Kazuko Onodera. I mean, I had learned yoga from my grandmother when I was a child, but then I hadn't practiced again until around 1990 when I went to Kazuko because I was feeling so bad physically. Actually I think I went I went to her for a massage at first, and then she's like, oh, and I offer yoga, and I started practicing with her, and then she literally said to me at one point, she's like, do you think making yourself sick is somehow helping or supporting your friends? Like, is that how you're helping? You know, it's like she just confronted me with that. Like, the way that grief had manifested in my life, and I had made it so like, physical in my body, and you know, she kind of taught me how, through yoga and meditation, I could begin to process it in a healthier way and feel my feelings. Basically, I had to just feel it, and also realize that if I took care of myself, I would be better at helping and serving the community. That's what she taught me was that self-care and the and the role of self-care in service, and so she helped me build a personal practice. She taught me how to garden, how to cook, literally, how to feed my soul and my body through yoga as like a whole complete lifestyle, and she really took me under her wing and like kind of reparented me. Thank God, and and then I wanted to teach yoga, and so she started training me to teach, and I think that was the other thing I did with my grief was to try to find a way to give back, teaching yoga. I decided that I wanted to teach yoga for people with AIDS. That was the whole point. That's why I became a yoga teacher. And she started training me, but after four years of that, I said I'm I really want to do it. I want to get started. And she said, "No, you're still not ready." And I thought that was kind of funny, because I was too impatient, and I went and took a 200-hour training and just started teaching right away. I started teaching at the like the AIDS Hospital, Davies Medical Center in the Castro in San Francisco, and you know I just I had to just I couldn't wait any longer. She was disappointed in me, but I couldn't help it. Anyway, I don't know if that answers. Was it Nicole? Nicole had such a great question.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:09:51
Do you feel like any of those strands of grief coming through today? I know it's been so many decades, but the world continues to experience heartache and people aren't cared for in the way they need to be.
Jivana Heyman 1:10:06
Yeah, it came up for me a lot during COVID, but also just in my work in general. I mean, I've been working with disabled folks and older people ever since I started teaching. Accessible Yoga has been like my way of processing ongoing grief and questions about -- why? Like how and why and what? Like, with about life, like life's big burning questions, because I feel like grief brings those things up. Death, you know, makes you recognize that you're only here for a short time, that it's limited. When I lost my parents, it was very clear to me. My mom died almost nine years ago now, and I had such a strong reaction to her. Her death, like, just destroyed me, and and I think part of it was because I literally think I had PTSD from the AIDS crisis, and I feel like her death triggered all of my stuff. So it wasn't just about my mother dying, because I mean she was 88, she had lived an incredible life. And she had an easy death. Like it was really quite beautiful. She was only ill for like, I would say the last year of her life, which is pretty incredible to live a relatively healthy life, and and just kind of have that last year to be a struggle. And she was peaceful when she died, but I had this huge reaction to it. It really blew me away. And again, I think it was just unprocessed grief from what I had been through. But I also feel grateful for all of my friends who died way back then, because I think it made me recognize the importance of facing death and thinking about it. And obviously, I'm still processing it. I mean, who's not? As I get older, you know, it keeps coming up for me. Like, wow, like I have limited time. You know, I'm turning 60 next year, and that's really going to be interesting. So yeah, I don't know. I guess I could say this about yoga, that yoga is the place I go for answers, and I feel so lucky to have that. You know, yoga is so clear about death, and I often say that yoga is preparation for death. I think that's because the teachings are trying to show us that, or ask us to identify with the part of ourselves that is eternal and unchanging, and that doesn't die, rather than this temporary body and mind that does die, and that's very soothing. I mean, it's a really amazing way to think about our own death, but also the death of those that we've loved, or that we do love, and that part of them lives on, and I feel it. You know, my friends, I can feel them around me. A lot of my practice is spent thinking about the people I've lost and connecting with them in some way. I just feel their presence. You know, on my altar, I have pictures of many of my loved ones who've died, and pretty much every day, that's who I'm thinking of when I practice. They're around me, and I think again that that's what yoga is teaching us. There's something eternal, and I know that's true.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:14:03
Really beautiful, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 1:14:05
Okay, I don't know. It's a little heavy. That was a powerful question, though. My goodness, I could spend days talking about that. I don't know. I mean, maybe I should write about it more. Like you said, I tried to bring it up in the new book quite a bit, but yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:14:27
It is a topic too in certain Western cultures that people don't talk about their grief beyond a certain period of time, right? Like there's this expectation to get over it, and I think we've talked about this before, but like you know, fear of death or like the unknown is really probably determines a lot of our behaviors. A lot of psychologists say that.
Jivana Heyman 1:14:50
Right. It's like that unconscious fear that is motivating us throughout our lives, and that's why I feel grateful to people I've lost when I was younger. I mean, to to face death when I was young is quite an honor in a way, or not an honor, but like I think I was lucky, because my friends showed me how to die and how it works. Like, it was just something that was in my face, you know, in my late teens and 20s. And to appreciate life, you know, I think that's what it does too. It allows you to shift your perspective to know that this is all temporary and enjoy life for that purpose, you know, just enjoy the time you have, and without denying the fact that it's limited. In the teachings, it's the fifth obstacle, the fifth klesha, the fifth obstacle to our enlightenment is abhinivesha, or fear of death, clinging to the body. And it's funny because some people die very peacefully, and some people don't. Do you know what I mean. So it's like that's part of it too. To me, I don't know. Like how do you face death? Do you fight till the end, or do you just relax into it? I don't know. Anyway, like I said, you need to stop me because I could keep going.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:16:32
I mean, I could talk about this as well, or listen to you talk about this for a long time. I so appreciate you sharing so much about your experience, because I know it's a it's a deep topic, right? It's not easy, but there's so much wisdom in what you're sharing. Thank you. Thank you, Nicole, for the question.
Jivana Heyman 1:16:59
Yeah, and I have one last thought, and which is that I'm curious, Nicole, if you want to follow up with another question or comment, if there's something specific that you wanted to know. But I guess I just want to say that for everyone who is grieving, that I hope that you can find support either through the practice itself, right? Like, let yoga support you. You can read, you know, if you study yoga philosophy, that is the best support I know of, honestly, for grief because it's so clear in what it's teaching us. And if not in the teachings, then in your practice or from your community. Like, don't do it alone. It is the most human thing to grieve, and yet we've like taken it away, make it like it's a separate. That, like you were saying before, like we have to limit in some way. Do you know what I'm saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:18:14
Yeah, yeah. That there's like a certain period of time people are kind of expected to get over it, but you know, it's something that we actually probably carry with us, as you said, forever. There's no time where it automatically goes away, right? Like your feelings about it may change depending on the year, the season, the moment.
Jivana Heyman 1:18:33
Yeah, so I guess what I'm saying is, if you're grieving, you don't need to grieve alone. Know that well, I'm there with you, and the teachings are there for you, and the world. There's people around the world grieving all the time, and you know it's good to find support for that. I was thinking of one other thing that in the teachings, there's a beautiful Upanishad, the Katha Upanishad, K A T H A, which is a beautiful story about death. You know, it's about Nachiketa, who's a kind of young boy who wants to know about death and the meaning of life? I mean, I I could tell the story if you want, but maybe we should stop here. But I just encourage people to read the Katha Upanishad, if you want to read a really beautiful reflection on death. To just summarize like this boy basically ends up meeting with Lord Yama, the Lord of Death, and asks him, you know, what happens when we die, and it's just it's really, really something.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:19:53
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. We'll add that in the show notes too.
Jivana Heyman 1:19:56
Yeah, yeah. Thanks again, Nicole. Thanks for that. Great question. Gosh, people leave the best voice messages and the best questions, but really any question is great. I hope that people will leave more messages for me. I love them.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:20:19
Leave us a voicemail for your own personal dharma talk with Jivana!
Jivana Heyman 1:20:23
Yes, leave us a voicemail, and maybe we should end there. I probably talked a long time. I wasn't really paying attention, but I'll just say thank you. Thank you for listening, everyone. Thanks for being here. Thank you, Deanna, as usual.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:20:39
Thank you, Jo, for the uplifting and amazing conversation.
Jivana Heyman 1:20:42
Yeah, thank you, Jo, also for everything! For writing a great book, and for being my friend. All right, bye, everyone.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:20:52
Till next time.
Jivana Heyman 1:21:02
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement, to learn, to answer each other's questions, and to practice together. It's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need, and I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Souza leads the other, and it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org. There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
