Jivana Heyman 0:18
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him. And I'm joining you from Chumash Land, known today as Santa Barbara, California. And thanks so much for joining me. I hope you're well. I really do. I know there's a lot going on in the world, so I just really appreciate you being here and spending your time with me. I have a really great conversation today with Mookaite Jasper, also known as Kite, and they've written a book called Queer Yoga: A Guide to Well-Being Through Inclusive and Accessible Yoga. And thanks, Kite, for putting Accessible Yoga in the subtitle! That makes me very happy. I love this book. It's really needed in the yoga world today, creating welcoming spaces for queer people, and this book really guides us in so many amazing ways to do that. So I hope you'll enjoy this conversation with Kite.
Jivana Heyman 1:24
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Jivana Heyman 2:20
Hi everyone, and welcome, Kite. Thanks so much for being here.
Kite 2:23
Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 2:24
Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you today. Maybe you could just say hi and introduce yourself a little bit.
Kite 2:31
Yeah. So my name is Mookaite Jesper, but people call me Kite, and my pronouns are they/them. I'm based in Middlesbrough, which is in the northeast of England. Yeah, and I identify as trans, non-binary, and queer, and I'm autistic.
Jivana Heyman 2:46
Awesome, thank you. Thanks so much for sharing and for being here. And you know, I think I mostly wanted to talk to you because you have a new book, which I'm very excited about, Queer Yoga. Which I mean, I'm holding up, which people maybe can't see if they're just listening to the podcast, but it's Queer Yoga: A Guide to Well-Being Through Inclusive and Accessible Yoga, and I love that you said Accessible Yoga. Forward by Jessamyn Stanley, so I need to ask you about that too. But I just wondered, you know, maybe you could just give us a little bit about the journey, your journey, because I was so excited that you wrote this book, a much needed book, I would say.
Kite 3:20
Thank you, thank you for all the support. And really, it's like my personal experiences as a queer person. So it's quite a personal book. It's drawing on how yoga has helped me with my queer journey, and especially with my mental health. The LGBTQIA+ community is disproportionately impacted by mental health issues, and so because of that, after I qualified as a yoga teacher, which really wasn't that long ago.
Jivana Heyman 3:48
How long ago was it?
Kite 3:49
Oh, like four years ago. (Four years, okay.) Quite recent. I set up a nonprofit where I live in Middlesbrough to offer free yoga for the queer community, and I felt that we really needed a space to gather, a space that wasn't around alcohol. So actually, tomorrow, Jivana, is my five years soberversary. (Soberversary, oh!) Soberversary, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 4:15
That's awesome. Congratulations. That's amazing. Thank you.
Kite 4:18
So yoga really helped me with my journey with alcoholism and the rest and so I really felt that a lot of the kind of social things for queer people was centered around alcohol. If you think about pride and stuff like that, so having a queer yoga space was a space for people to really focus on self care and to socialize as well. So we would have these yoga sessions, and then afterwards, people would stay for tea - I'm very British - and then people could meet other other people, and it was really lovely, but it was really tough. And anyone who's worked in kind of non profits will know that like getting funding is really exhausting. One of the issues is that we wanted it to be led by people from within the community, but most of us are suffering ourselves with our own mental health battles. So it really, in the end, wasn't sustainable. And unfortunately, the organization closed, and I was really struggling with burnout as a result. But I decided to write a book so I could kind of encapsulate everything that we had grown as a community. I would say that a lot of what's in there isn't like just from me; it's from the people, you know, who came to the sessions, and this is kind of the outcome of that.
Jivana Heyman 5:36
Yeah, well, I mean, it's interesting that you were already feeling burnt out, and then you wrote a book because that's a huge project. I mean, I have to say, in terms of all the things I do, book writing is probably one of the things that takes the most attention, most energy. Are you a writer?
Kite 5:55
Yeah, I trained as a journalist when I graduated. I used to work on newspapers.
Jivana Heyman 6:00
Because I had too, slightly, I didn't train, but I had a short mini career as a journalist during my AIDS activist days, and so that definitely helped me. You know, just having editors taught me how to write well. So, that makes a lot of sense because I do think a lot of yoga people don't have a writing background, and then they want to write a book, and it becomes just overwhelming. Well that makes sense.
Kite 6:21
Definitely. I will say that I really benefited from a course that I went on that was specifically about writing for yoga by Jilly Shipway, who's a yoga teacher who wrote a book called Yoga Through the Year, which is a seasonal approach to yoga. And she had this course, and as the final assessment on the course, you had to write a chapter of a book, and she saw this chapter. She edited it and looked at it, and she said, "You should send it to my publisher." And that's how I got published, is because of that support, which I think it really shows up the system of how privilege works, to be honest, and and shows how important mentoring is as well.
Jivana Heyman 7:01
Yeah, I agree. I try my best to connect people to my publisher and to basically give people information about book writing who are interested. And actually, kind of a theme in the podcast this season is to talk about the process of my new book because I just wanted to share that a bit. And so that's the other reason I want to talk to you, just because I think it's really important for yoga people to know about book writing and how it works. I think it's much more challenging, I think, than most people believe. It sounds like your journey was pretty straightforward, but book writing isn't... First of all, publishing is a separate business, and so people think that they're going to be just practicing in a yogic way, but book writing is very much like capitalism. I mean, not the writing, but the publishing part, and that can be confusing for a lot of yoga people, I think.
Kite 7:49
Yeah, I think so, and it relies on like the support, like you're supporting me, right, by inviting me onto your podcast, and that's sort of like well, I'd say allyship, but you're part of the community too. I'd say from Jilly Shipway, it was it was allyship. She's not part of this community, but she recognized that there nonetheless, she saw there was a need for this kind of book, and she kind of used her voice to amplify like somebody from the queer community, and that's allyship.
Jivana Heyman 8:17
Yeah, that's so awesome. Well, I'm excited about it, and we'll put links for the book so people can find out about it. You actually do... it is through a year. That's what you've done is 12 months of practice.
Kite 8:29
Yeah, it was really inspired by Jilly's book, massively.
Jivana Heyman 8:33
Can you can you tell us more about the book? I mean, it is quite amazing. I found there's a lot of practices and drawings, and then I appreciate at the end of each section there was journal prompts. So it felt that's something I really love, you know, in writing is to ask questions. So I appreciate that. I just wonder what else were you focused on in this book?
Kite 8:54
You had the questions in Yoga Revolution, right? They're really nice. Yeah. So basically, the themes in the book are kind of queer-related themes, and that was how I used to teach the queer yoga classes that I did in person, was drawing on themes like being seen, being held, belonging, things that are quite relevant for the LGBTQI+ community. And then I tried to kind of incorporate asana practice that relates to those themes, but also putting in the chair poses for every sequence, and that's the thing I think I'm most pleased about with the book is that the publisher went to the effort, which is no mean feat, of putting in all the stick figures all on the chair and all standing, and I'm really chuffed about that. That's really cool, and that's a real... I would say that's a direct result of the training that I've had from Accessible Yoga, from you, Jivana, and from Rodrigo, and you know, it just shows that these little ripples effects that we put out into the world, we don't know how we're going to impact other people, right? And your work really has meant that these diagrams are chair based, and that wouldn't have been in there without you and Rodrigo.
Jivana Heyman 10:07
Thank you. Thanks for saying that. But I also would say the same to you that I think, you know, even though I know you you think you're very new to yoga and maybe you're not feeling, I don't know, like an expert, I would say you have an important place in the community. And I think just to be putting yourself out there the way you do, and then to put a book like this out there is really powerful. And I think what it is to me is that the community... there isn't a particular community in yoga, but I think what it is is that it's dependent on individuals being themselves, and then when we do share that, we do have impact on others that we may not realize. So, like your being here might have an impact on someone that you don't even realize as well.
Kite 10:51
Oh, I hope so. I'd love it if somebody queer was listening and felt a bit more seen. I think that when I was going to yoga classes, I don't go to many group classes anymore because mainly because I just don't feel like I belong, honestly. Most of the classes, if I attend classes they're often online with teachers in the States mainly who I have felt more that I resonate with, and I when I go to group classes I sometimes still feel like an outsider unfortunately. A lot of the people who were coming to the in-person classes I was doing, they often hadn't even been to a yoga class because they wouldn't step foot into a studio because they didn't feel it was for them, and that's really sad, I think, because the the philosophy, the principles, the roadmap for living well, you know, trans and queer people really need that. Like, and we're being kind of excluded from a lot of spaces, maybe inadvertently, but...
Jivana Heyman 11:50
Yeah, or maybe not. I mean, it's so true right now, especially well, especially here in the U.S. It's a really difficult time for the trans community in particular, I would say, and so I think it's such a good point that we often need dedicated spaces, you know, like affinity spaces, such as you created, to help people feel welcome and seen. And I do think that's a different thing than conventional yoga studios trying to be welcoming. And I appreciate when they do that. I appreciate when, you know, I often work with yoga studios, and they want to be more accessible. But I think the problem is that the culture is usually set, and there's like a certain group of people that are coming there, and it can be hard to expand beyond that. So it takes people like you and people from communities themselves to become teachers and leaders, and actually create those spaces. So that does seem important, but I wonder if you could just - I want to know more about your journey, if you don't mind sharing. I don't know if you want to talk about it, but I'm curious about you connected it back to your recovery journey. Is that what made you start yoga, through recovery?
Kite 12:56
Oh, I had no intention of giving up alcohol when I started yoga. Basically, so I have bipolar disorder with mania, so I have a tendency to real racing thoughts, and I didn't know that at the time that I started yoga, but I knew that my head was very full, and I couldn't really... I wanted to meditate and do seated meditation, and I couldn't really sit still long enough, and so I started yoga because the moving meditation, the sense of moving meditation really worked for me. I felt this kind of quietening of the mind, but it took a really long time to like reconnect with myself, and I felt like... I wasn't out when I started yoga. I was in the closet, and I felt like yoga was what really connected me with myself, and so that I could actually feel that queerness, like in me, like not as something that other people are perceiving because of like a relationship or because of the way that I'm presenting or the way I read, but like something that is in me already, and I felt that yoga was that bridge. And so once I started to like, unpick things and take away those layers, slowly, slowly, I had all these kind of realizations, and that's where it started. Yeah, and connecting with myself was what led to ultimately quitting alcohol.
Jivana Heyman 14:22
So the yoga was first. And what led you to yoga originally, was just the this idea? Did you have a feeling it would help? I mean, I'm just curious if you found...?
Kite 14:33
So I had a bit of like an I don't know maybe like a bit of a cliche Eat Pray Love kind of situation. So I I got divorced. I married a man at 24, got divorced at 30, and left to go and live in Thailand. So I was living in Thailand in Chiang Mai in the north, and I lived there for three years. And when I was there, lots of other people were doing yoga. It just seemed like the thing that people were doing. And I was like, oh, maybe this will help me, like, in some way. But also, like it seems social too. Like, lots of people were going, so I kind of just went. But I, I don't really believe in coincidences, and I kind of think that people get pulled to things, you know, because that's what is serving you. Like, I had no idea about yoga philosophy or all the things that I've learned since. Like I didn't know about any of that, and it was very superficial, I guess, at the start. And nonetheless, like it's still something. There was something when you're in your child's pose on the mat, and you feel there's something like an emptiness or like a something that's like not right. It was like pointing the way. I'm not sure I'm explaining it very clearly, but maybe some of your listeners can relate. I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 15:51
Yeah, no. So, if I can repeat back to you what I think you're saying. So, you're saying that when you were practicing, you found that there was an emptiness. Is that what you're saying? That you felt like you weren't connected to yourself. It sounds like... (Yeah). And you've discovered that through practice. (Yeah.) Which makes sense. I mean, I think that's a very common experience, actually. That you know, when we start practicing, we can begin to recognize that maybe we haven't been with ourselves. We've been kind of outside of ourselves, living, you know, maybe very extra busy, keeping ourselves occupied with external things, not allowing ourselves to just be with ourselves. Which is, I think, the hardest part about yoga, actually. So, I don't know, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Kite 16:41
Yeah, I think it's hard to be with yourself when you feel profound shame. I think that as a queer person, I grew up in a very religious household, and I think when you feel immense shame, then you're kind of divorced from yourself because it's so toxic. Shame is so toxic, and it leads to all these things like addiction, and it's hard to break that cycle until it's sort of brought out into the light, and somehow yoga kind of helped me to kind of like, actually start to look at myself. It was like the clarity of like, oh, this is here, this shame.
Jivana Heyman 17:22
That's beautiful. I mean, I think that's a very common experience. Maybe just because I'm queer too, I had the same. I had almost the same experience. I did have it a long time ago, but I can really relate to that feeling. I think, to me, it was more than just shame. I think there's shame, but there's something else that happens. I think for queer people, I mean, I don't want to universalize my experience, but I would just say I think there's almost like an external personality that we put on to live in the world and survive. You know, like a face that we put on, just hiding the truth. You know, so for me, like I knew I was gay probably when I was like 13 or something, but I didn't come out till I was like 17. I think those are very formative years. My teenage years were spent basically hiding a part of myself, so kind of putting on this face, this fake, like kind of persona to survive.
Kite 18:21
Yeah, it's a bit like masking almost.
Jivana Heyman 18:23
Masking, yeah. That's it, it's masking. Yeah. I know we talk about it with neurodivergence and neurodiversity, but I don't think we talk about it - maybe we do - with queerness, but I haven't heard it connected that way. I mean, there's a connection there, I guess, too. But it does seem like masking is what we're talking about. I think probably everyone does it to some extent. You know, like everyone grows up and tries to find a way to be happy in a world that's difficult, and especially marginalized folks. So I think marginalized folks know more about it than others. But, you know, it could be whatever. It could be queerness, or it could be racism. You know, or it could be-I don't know, like anti-immigrant sentiment, like we're having right now in the U.S. I mean, I just feel like there's a lot of oppression that causes these personal challenges, and I think one of the problems I see in yoga is that we tend to overly personalize them, so I mean I get that it is a personal journey, but it's also important to recognize that it's a common experience. That it's actually a cultural problem, right? The problem is homophobia and transphobia, that's the problem. We're not the problem. Do you know what I'm saying?
Kite 19:41
Absolutely, and I think that's why when I was teaching queer yoga classes in person, I saw this kind of magic happen where people came into a space and they they kind of could let their guard down a bit, and kind of in some ways that's essential for yoga. Yoga helps you to let your guard down, but you also need to be able to let your guard down to access the yoga. So sometimes it's a bit of a vicious cycle. But I saw people come into that space and have the chance to offer their pronouns and have the chance to kind of state their needs in that space. And I don't know if relax is the right word because I don't know if everybody can relax, especially when they're new to yoga, but like to some extent, they were able to be more present, I think.
Jivana Heyman 20:27
Yeah, it's an amazing thing. That's what yoga can do. It's funny because I think my intention to become a teacher was to teach people with AIDS, and I did. And I think, in a sense, I was also teaching queer yoga. Like that's what was happening. Those spaces were also queer spaces, and that was probably the most transformational part of it was to be in a space that felt relatively safe and familiar. You know, like I could be around other people who'd had a similar experience as me, mostly other queer men. So it was really, yeah, that changed my life. That's what I love what you're doing. It seems like very niche, but I actually think it's so important for marginalized folks to reclaim wellness and to use practices like yoga or engage with practices like yoga in the way you're sharing. So I love it. I love what you did. I love this book. I hope people will get it.
Kite 21:20
I think you're right that other like, different spaces can be queer spaces without necessarily talking about LGBTQI+ issues or necessarily being like exclusively for those people. And I felt that the first time that I did Rodrigo's classes. To me, when I went to his classes, they felt like queer classes. It was the closest that I had come to that, and that's not because he's teaching for the queer community, but it's because to some extent that's queering yoga, right?
Jivana Heyman 21:51
Yeah, and I think it has to do again with the with marginalized folks who felt oppressed in some way and who value community and connection. I feel that way with Rod too. I think because of his experience as a disabled person, it's like he's very sensitive. There's like the sensitivity and kindness and consciousness in the way he teaches and just the way he is that comes through his own experience of oppression, I would say, and the challenges he's faced, and his own personal suffering. I think that's in a way the gift, I think, of marginalization, even though I hate to say it that way. I think the gift of being queer or being disabled or of facing any of these forms of oppression is some kind of... I hate to say wisdom, but like something that comes, you know, a self-awareness that comes through that. And I see that so much in our community. I mean, that's what I love about Accessible Yoga and the people who are drawn to it is like they seem to have this extra sensitivity, kind of. Is that the word?
Kite 22:56
Yeah, I think so. When you when you're in the Mentorship sessions and you hear everybody's stories. Like people are coming from really different backgrounds with really different experiences, and I feel such a sense of belonging with all these people who are often really different to me. But the belonging comes from that, from the fact that, like you said earlier, like people sharing and people are really generous in that community with their sharing, and I come away feeling like, oh, I'm not so alone, and that's really beautiful. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 23:30
Well, I appreciate you saying that because I love that community, and as you know, I'm getting more involved again. Rod was running it last year, but now I'm back, so we're sharing it - the Accessible Yoga Mentorship - and it's so nice to be with a bunch of yoga teachers who all care about people and want to make community that's welcoming and create yoga spaces that are truly accessible. And, like you said, people are very generous there and very kind. And I've been trying to focus on practice there, just because I want to give back to those people. Like I feel like all those incredibly service-oriented folks tend to be giving so much. I worry that they're taking care of themselves, which brings me back to you, actually, and the theme for this season, which is around self-care and service. And I just wonder if you could talk about that a little bit. I don't know how to ask the question even yet, because I've been trying to in all these episodes this season. But how do you balance that self care and service, if you do at all? I don't know.
Kite 24:31
Yeah, it's really tricky, and I don't think I did a very good job because I ended up burnt out.
Jivana Heyman 24:36
Yeah, okay.
Kite 24:37
I'm not an expert in that at all, but it's a constant battle with mental health. So my practice is all about grounding because of having more manic tendencies, and I've ended up in hospital a couple of times. And last summer had a really serious episode, and it's like everything has to stop then. So it's really frustrating and sad when you build things up, but you can't, you've been in hospital and there's nothing else to do. And I would say, what I'm drawn on a lot, and what I owe a lot to, is women of color who have been writing about rest and speaking about rest for a long time. Rest as Resistance, really impacted me by Tricia Hersey. And there's a book called Radical Rest by Evie Muir, and that's all about burnout. And so, learning from, like you were saying before, learning from other groups who are like wrestling with these topics that has really helped as well as kind of like moving beyond just our yoga books, but moving into thinking about rest a lot. Yeah, being in the body in any way is what basically keeps me well. I need to like have my socks and shoes off, and I need to have my feet in the grass, my feet in the sand, and I need to be connected to my body because this kind of mania is a very upward sensation. It becomes very heady, and where you can kind of almost literally become like disconnected from your body, and that's when it gets dangerous. So staying in the body. So I can't meditate for too long at a time, for example. Like, I need to be really embodied first before I come to any kind of seated meditation.
Jivana Heyman 26:24
Yeah. So, I wonder if you could say more about that because that's actually the topic of my book I'm working on this year, is yoga meditation. I'm trying to kind of redefine for myself what meditation is. And I appreciate that you said seated meditation, and then you were saying, you know, I can't meditate too long. But I feel like being in the body, being grounded, to me, is meditation. I just think that we've defined meditation in a very narrow way.
Kite 26:52
You're so right, you're so right. And I really appreciate ThĂch Nhất Hạnh's teachings around walking meditation, for example. Walking meditation is something that if I'm not very well and I can't do seated meditation, then walking meditation is really helpful for me because I can just focus on my feet. But even when I'm out hiking, so I live near the North York Moors, like big moorland, and I go out hiking on my own and just focus on the feeling of the earth under my feet, and actually, when it was the first year of my soberversary, I bought myself a pair of hiking boots to like, mark it. And every time I'm hiking, like I remember, I'm in the body, and I feel so grateful to still have this body and to be in it and to be connected to those feet.
Jivana Heyman 27:39
Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful. I always I think of asana too. Like to me, asana is basically moving meditation. Just like walking meditation might be in the Buddhist tradition. I think in yoga, that's why asana is so powerful because it's not that we're just stretching or doing exercise. We're actually moving with awareness, and that's the meditation piece. And I feel I don't know if asana is a part of your practice, but it just feels to me like asana is that does that for me too. It just brings me back into my body.
Kite 28:11
Yeah, absolutely. No, it's like every day. Every day it's the same thing. Not the same thing, but like it feels sometimes quite relentless, like the effort to stay well, can feel really hard sometimes. Anyone with a mental health condition or other conditions maybe feel that, it's grueling, sometimes it can feel, to keep trying to keep yourself well and stable. The other things that I would say that have really helped me in terms of you asked specifically about service and balancing is to do with like seasonality and starting to understand like rhythms, like my rhythms and the rhythms of the seasons. And so, like people are maybe more familiar with the idea that perhaps some people suffer more with depression in the winter, and it's more commonly talked about. But like mania for me really impacts me in the summer because it's like the opposite. It's like the light, especially in the north of the UK. We have very long days in the summer, and it's too much. And so, trying to like minimize my work in the summer really helps. Like again, it's about acknowledging privilege, though. Like I'm super privileged, I have the option to be a bit more flexible, and like it comes back to what we're talking about with systemic issues, right? People need to have flexibility to be able to make wise choices for their own rhythms, I would say
Jivana Heyman 29:34
That's awesome. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. I'm curious about one more thing about your book, I just want to ask, is about Jessamyn Stanley. Are you a student of hers? Because it was really great to see her forward for your book, and I don't think she does it very often. I haven't seen her do that kind of thing, so I just wonder.
Kite 29:51
It was really generous. I subscribe to The Underbelly, which is her online studio, but there's no reason she would know that particularly, personally. Like, I'm sure she has lots of subscribers, so I have no personal connection with her. But I emailed because she is queer, and her books Yoke and Every Body Yoga, she does mention her queerness, and she really generously agreed to do the forward, which was yeah, I was really quite taken aback, and I think that comes back to what we're talking about about supporting people, amplifying voices, and the words that she's written are just well, it gives me tingles actually, thinking about it. I've reread that forward so many times. Yeah, I'm really grateful to her, and I I really appreciate what The Underbelly offers as a queer person, because it's a vulnerable space.
Jivana Heyman 29:51
Yeah, I love it. If I could just read the opening to it, I think it's beautiful too. She says, "Yoga has always been queer." I like that. I agree, yoga has always been queer. "Not because of rainbow flags or pride parades, but because yoga is about accepting every part of who you are -- contradictions, the intersections, and the places that don't fit neatly into categories. What could be more queer than that?" I was like, yeah, that's it. So, yeah, I I love that.
Kite 30:50
Follow her on Substack and subscribe to The Underbelly, is all I'm saying.
Jivana Heyman 31:21
Well, we can link to that too. Anything else you want to share? I'm very excited for you. I hope the book sells well. I hope people listening will get it. Yeah. Anything else you want to share?
Kite 31:31
Oh, thank you. I just really want to put our message to anybody who's out there feeling alone, feeling not heard or seen in yoga studios, just to say that you do belong in the yoga community, and I really think that we need you, and we need these voices to come forward. So please, please feel belonging. It's there somewhere.
Jivana Heyman 31:57
Oh my God! Yeah, I could not agree with that more. It's kind of... what is the word? Like a cycle, like almost a vicious cycle in a way that if we don't belong, then we don't create space for other people to belong, and so then less people are included. So it's almost like it takes people like you, I think, to step up and actually create a space and write a book like that to then welcome in more people. So I think you've done an amazing job. So thank you for doing that.
Kite 32:27
Thank you, and thank you for supporting the book, Jivana. I really appreciate that.
Jivana Heyman 32:31
Yeah. All right. Thanks so much, Kite. Thanks for being here. Nice talking to you. (You too.) Okay. Bye. (Bye!)
Jivana Heyman 32:47
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Jivana Heyman 33:37
Welcome back, everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 33:40
Hello, Jivana. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 33:43
I'm good. I am really good. How about you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 33:45
Yeah, I'm also good. Also good. I just listened to your conversation with Kite, which was incredible.
Jivana Heyman 33:51
Yeah, that was fun. I really enjoyed talking to Kite. I appreciate that they're very humble, and yet they've created this incredible book. So I just think it's kind of sweet, you know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 34:04
I was totally captured by how your stories are similar and parallel in certain ways, not in all the ways, but just in that, you know, Kite created this book out of their experiences with community and everything that community taught them, and you know, similar to how you created Accessible Yoga with all the learnings that you had teaching yoga to your community of gay men with AIDS.
Jivana Heyman 34:29
Yeah, maybe it's a queer thing, that we create stuff. I do think queer people do have a lot of creativity and ways of thinking differently and problem solving, and also creating community. Because, you know, if you're not really accepted in every other space, you often need to create your own spaces. And I think that's what both of us maybe were responding to is just the fact that, you know, as queer people we had to create our own spaces. Because actually Kite's story - yeah, I did feel that - when they shared about they started a nonprofit to have like a queer friendly space that didn't have alcohol as part of it because they're sober, and I thought that was really interesting. And then the struggles they went through with burnout running that nonprofit, and it's yeah, I mean it's kind of similar to how Accessible Yoga, in a sense, that I credit created like a separate yoga program for mostly queer people. That's really what my earliest classes were. I mean, it's for people with HIV and AIDS, but in the beginning it was all gay men. So yeah, it was definitely a queer centered space that was separate because I don't think a lot of mainstream spaces were welcoming us. At least when I did it, because when I did it, it was over 30 years ago. I'm not sure how much things have changed. I think Kite's a lot younger than me. I hope things have changed, you know. And they're also in the UK, but I think yeah, queer people around the world struggle to be accepted, and we often have to create our own... our own everything.
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:08
Yeah, that that was also like a theme. I thought of your conversation, right, like creating space for queer and trans folks right now who don't feel welcome in mainstream spaces. Super important, given everything happening.
Jivana Heyman 36:20
Yeah, that's true. Given everything happening here, especially in the U.S. right now, and in many other places around the world, I mean, it's just an ongoing issue. I think queer people and many other marginalized, you know, communities we have to find our own spaces, we have to create affinity spaces. But often there's a lot of creativity that goes into that, and a lot of beauty that can come out of that. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it can start out because of oppression, but it can lead to some real beautiful, creative things. Like Kite's book, I think, because Kite said this book was the result of that work, that when they had to shut down the nonprofit, they put what they learned into this book. And I think that's just a great example of, I don't know, of how they turned it into something positive. So I really appreciate that. It's a beautiful book.
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:15
I actually also want to surface a quote you said in the conversation, which I wrote down because it stuck with me. "There isn't a particular community in yoga, but it's dependent on individuals being themselves. And when we share that, we have an impact on others that we may not realize." I thought that was such a beautiful sentiment.
Jivana Heyman 37:33
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that and pulling that out because I would say that's almost the theme for me in Accessible Yoga is trying to remind people that they can be themselves, and that yoga is not about turning into something else. You know, sometimes we think about yoga as like becoming -- transformation, that's a word that's used a lot in yoga. But I think it's a little bit wrong, it's not like we transform into something else. It's just become more of yourself or feel more at home with yourself. I think that's what it is, because I think for anyone who has struggled or has trauma, it's very hard to be with yourself. And when we teach yoga and meditation, we ask people to sit with themselves and their feelings. It can just really be rough and uninviting, and we say it like it's nothing, but I think that's the goal: is to be able to be with yourself and to find a home back in your own heart, actually. And I would say it's true of Accessible Yoga teachers. What I see when I train teachers all over the world, actually, I see people who are really powerful and beautiful and caring and loving people who have often imposter syndrome or a sense that they're not enough because they're different. Do you know what I mean? Like, they think that's the problem, but I think it's the opposite. I think that's what makes them powerful. You know, it's like maybe a cliche, but our differences do make us stronger. I don't think the world needs more yoga teachers that are incredibly flexible and strong. I think what the world needs is yoga teachers who embrace diversity and difference, and recognize that's the strength, right? That's the strength.
Deanna Michalopoulos 39:30
Yeah, creating a space where people can feel maybe just a little more okay being themselves. And I know you two covered on masking, which I'm not sure if you want to define that for anybody here, but when you're kind of like trying to fit in a certain way. Society will like, kind of penalize you for not being a certain way, right? So people build layers, and it's exhausting, and it takes a lot of energy, and so like it's also a space, and when it's is in yoga space with you know where you feel like you belong, you can kind of peel off these layers, maybe little by little.
Jivana Heyman 40:06
Right. So masking is something that a lot of people... I mean, there's different kinds of masking. I can't remember how we said it in the conversation because I should just say we recorded this after that. But yeah, you're talking about masking because it can be used for neurodivergent folks, often have to do a lot of masking. But also, as a queer person, we can kind of pretend we're straight. We can actually act heteronormative and try to fit those stereotypes so that we blend into society rather than getting attention. And I think that's what we're often trained to do. Like, I came out of the closet -- well, no, I came out when I was 17, but I realized I was gay when I was 13. So I had like four years there where I was really right in my prime adolescent development stage... it was basically, there was a conflict that I had to - I knew I was different than everyone else - but I had to like pretend I wasn't. And that created a kind of masking where I lied and pretended I was just like everybody else and tried to. Some people can't mask as well, maybe for gay men who are... just gender divergent folks or people who just are very outspoken. I mean, either way, it's a struggle. You know, if you mask, then it's harder, I think, to take it off later. But that's the beauty of this book.
Jivana Heyman 41:33
I just want to talk about the book one more time and just say that I really appreciate that the book is called Queer Yoga. I think that many people will think, "Well, why do you even need that? Yoga is for everybody, you don't need queer yoga." But that person saying that probably isn't queer. They probably fit into a lot of places, and when you don't fit in, it's nice to have a book or a space that tells you you're welcome and you're okay, and then talks about your experience -- like an affinity space. And the book is like that. It's like an affinity space for queer people. There's something that Kite wrote in this book that really touched me. I know it's a small thing towards the end of the book. The book is divided into months, so it's like a year. And the month of December, and actually December 1st is World AIDS Day, and Kite starts that chapter on December talking about AIDS and the impact it's had on the world. I just want to say, like, I don't hear that talked about enough, because that was so much of my experience. The fact that an entire generation of queer people died, especially gay men. You know, my generation mostly were gone, and I just think it's nice to honor them and honor queer elders. I have to say, I'm kind of a queer elder now. Like I'm 59, and I feel like queer people that survive have an experience, and I just was touched by Kite mentioning that. I don't know why. It just feels like as a younger queer person, I appreciate their reflection that we struggled and we learned a lot and we got through it, and we have something to share. So anyway, that was just like a minor point. But I would say for anyone, this book is awesome, whether you're queer or not. Especially if you have queer students or a queer family member, you might want to share this book with them. I think it's really well done. Okay, I'll stop talking about the book.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:36
No, no! Everyone should pick up this book. We have the link in the show notes. Thank you so much, Kite.
Jivana Heyman 43:44
Yeah, thanks, Kite.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:46
Jivana, we have a question today.
Jivana Heyman 43:49
Yay!
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:49
I'm going to leave you some space for this one. Going to be this is a really great question, and I think a lot of people resonate with it for this question. It comes from Verna Burden. "I am very curious about your new book and look forward to reading it. My question is about how I just don't find the texts of ancient yoga writings to be very understandable or accessible. I hear different Sutras quoted and then I go to the text and it just doesn't land with me, like current poetry, for example. I find the Bhagavad Gita to be very hard to understand. Any ideas or suggestions when people make commentary on the texts? I find that very useful, but reading them myself just falls flat."
Jivana Heyman 44:29
Yeah! Wow! What a great question! I love that. I love that question. Thank you, Verna, for submitting that. And I totally understand what you're saying, and I hear that so often. You know, so many peoplem, I think... well, like you said, Deanna, I think so many people feel similarly. Like they want to go back to the text, but struggle to do so. Just in case I forget, in my book Yoga Revolution in the back of the book, I have a list of resources, and one of those is translations of the Yoga Sutras and the Bhagavad Gita that I like. And then, of course, I have a ton of additional books too. But I particularly have - I think I have at least maybe I don't know - 15 or 20 translations of the Sutras and the Gita, and I put asterisks by the ones that I think are easiest for beginners, so that could be useful. Also, I would just say that kind of is the point of that book. If you're interested in yoga philosophy, Yoga Revolution is my effort to make these teachings more accessible. In the book, I quote the Sutras and the Gita a lot, and what I've done is I picked out my favorite translations of my favorite Sutras and slokas from the Gita and the Sutras, and the Upanishads, and tried to share what they mean to me, because I think it's a big obstacle. I think this is a huge problem, I think, for our contemporary yoga community, in that we don't tend to go back directly to source material. Even when we're doing that, we're not going back directly, we're still going to translation. So I just want to say that's the other important thing to note here is that I'm speaking English and this is all happening in English, and that's a huge part of the challenge: is that we're not reading in the original languages. Most of these texts were in Sanskrit, but not all. There were some other languages used, but mostly Sanskrit.
Jivana Heyman 46:31
And you know, I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but since I've been doing this a long time, I have a sense of a lot of it. What I really find interesting about Sanskrit, more than other languages - I've studied French quite a bit and Spanish a little bit - and I'll just say that, in most languages words tend to have a couple meanings, but in Sanskrit, I don't know why, but words tend to have way more meanings, that the context can change the meaning of a word so much. And so I mention that because, for example, the word yoga in Sanskrit has more meanings, at least in the one Sanskrit dictionary I've seen, more meanings than any other word in the whole dictionary, which is quite interesting if you think about it -- and confusing. So I'm probably making you think, oh, it's even worse than I thought. But what I'm saying is that because there's so many meanings to the words, that a lot of times translators kind of change it because of how they feel. Do you know what I mean? Based on what they understand and what's in their mind. So, to me, what's important is to get a few different translations, and I know that's an investment that not everyone can make. Some are available online as PDFs. There's some free resources, but I do think at some point it might be worth buying, and maybe you do this already, buy a few different books. Like I said, I listed the ones I like in there, in the back of that book, and to compare. So if you have, say, you're interested in reading about what does Patanjali say about asana. There's three Sutras on asana, so you can find them in one translation, and then go to another translation and read that. And then if you have another, you can read that. And that's what I do. In fact, Deanna, you've done that with me sometimes. You know, when I'm writing and doing quotes, sometimes you'll ask me about a certain translation and I often just look at many different ones. I have a bookshelf here of them, and I know not everyone can have that. But it just becomes an incredibly valuable resource to be able to compare and contrast the way that different translators have understood these Sutras or the slokas in the Gita. So before I go on, does that make sense, Deanna? What do you think? Do you have thoughts about that?
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:00
No, it does make sense, and it's interesting because you'll share several translations, and some of them I like, recoil. I'm like, oh, I don't like that! It feels too restrictive. The language to me is like... and it's a personal thing, a personal reaction. I'm like, oh, that feels a little too tightly bound for my taste. Like, what does this person say? So it is interesting to go through several translators.
Jivana Heyman 49:26
It is and it's so interesting because okay... so there's there's another conundrum, because basically, if you find a translator that might be more scholarly or academic, and has gone back... like I would say, Edwin Bryant is pretty good in that way. His translation of the Yoga Sutras, he really has gone back to look at the early commentators, and those are considered very important with the Yoga Sutras. The first comments that were given are almost equated with the Sutras themselves. So I think I appreciate that translation, but sometimes it doesn't make sense to our current mind in this current culture, and I think part of it is cultural and time, that you're looking back to a different time and place. The Sutras were written, I don't know, 15 to 1800 years ago, somewhere in India, probably, or South Asia, and just in a very different context. But then there's some translators who take a lot of leeway, like my teacher. One of my teachers is Nischala Devi, who I love. She has a book called The Secret Power of Yoga which is a translation of the Yoga Sutras, and she calls it, "A Woman's Guide to the Heart and Spirit of the Yoga Sutras." And in that book, she takes a lot of leeway, like she really offers them more as like an interpretation, and so many people love that because it rings truer for our modern sensibility. And so I think it's really up to us, each individually, to decide. You know, am I willing to expand my mind to embrace something I don't understand that may actually not even fit into my understanding of the world? You know, if you read like ahimsa in most of the translations is non-harm, but Nischala translates it as love. You know, ahimsa in her translation is love, which I think is really beautiful and powerful. So, I don't have an answer. I'm just saying, in a way, you get to decide. And again, it might take time to find the translations that do this for you, but find the ones that are more "authentic." And I don't know how to judge that, it's just more scholarly. And then the ones that are more interpretive, that are more like the translator has taken... you see the impact of their mind on the text. And I think Nischala Devi is a good example of that, which isn't a bad thing. And I don't mean to criticize her; she's been a very powerful, important teacher in my life. I mean, I trained with her for years, and I really love her. I just - it's clear that her translations are very different than the others. And then the question... anyway, do you have points or thoughts before...? Should I stop?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:36
I love's Nischala's translations. They always very much resonate with me.
Jivana Heyman 52:42
Right, so that's the thing, right? Is that good? Like, is that good though I guess? Maybe?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:48
Well, I think it's interesting to read another perspective, like you were saying. It's interesting to read several at a time and see how they are different, see where the threads are between them.
Jivana Heyman 53:00
Yeah, because she makes a lot of leaps in there. She doesn't translate the words verbatim. It's an interpretation, and there's real beauty in that. There's a debate like that happens around poetry too, because I think was it... did Verna mention poetry? If you look at ancient poets like Rumi, I think it was around Rumi or Hafiz that the translator was really just also a poet and was kind of writing in a way that wasn't really an exact reflection of the original text, but was an interpretation. And I think that's something that we really need to look at in every modern translation of an ancient text in a different language, and any translation period. Any time you translate anything, it's going through... well, could be going through a computer these days, but it's usually going through someone's mind. And Verna made a point about the Bhagavad Gita, and I just want to say that what I found with the Gita, very much, is that certain translations are very difficult to understand and that some are much easier. And so, I'd really recommend looking for a translation that feels understandable to you. There are some translations, and I'm just going to say what it is. There was a free translation of the Gita that the Hari Krishna organization gives out for free that I can't understand. I tried to read it, maybe it's my limited mind, but to me, it was all this historical detail, and it was very hard to find the teachings in there in a really logical way. I think probably my favorite translation is Eknath Easwaran's Bhagavad Gita. It's much, much more simple. And of course, my teacher, which who is problematic, Swami Satchidananda, because he ended up being abusive, but he has a really great translation of both the Gita and the Sutras. And so my personal struggle is just, not that you asked, is that I learned these texts through my teacher's voice, and then I struggle because of his abusive history. But that's still the way I always hear them in my mind. They were like grilled into us; I almost memorized his words. So those are still considered... I think Swami Satchidananda's Sutras might still be the most popular one, and there's a lot of value there. We just have to be careful who we're learning these things from, if there's been abuse in those lineages. Anyway, that was a long way of saying it's an ongoing challenge, and I think the fact that you're asking it's the key. Keep up, keep at it. I hope maybe my book Yoga Revolution would help you. I hope so. That's why I wrote that book to try to share some of these teachings in a more contemporary way, giving my interpretations, of course, and finding the translations that resonated with me. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think? Anything else, Deanna? Hard for me to stop talking.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:12
I also think, you know, reading Yoga Revolution, and also like finding workshops from teachers who resonate with you in general on philosophy, like having that guided experience of reading a text with a teacher, like in a structured format, could be really transformative.
Jivana Heyman 56:31
Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:32
I remember trying to read the Gita many times, and it wasn't until I was in a workshop...
Jivana Heyman 56:36
You were? You were trying to?
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:37
Yeah, I tried, and it was very difficult. And then when I worked for Yoga Journal, we hosted a workshop, and it was just a different experience once you're learning with a teacher.
Jivana Heyman 56:50
Yeah, I would just say my only thought would be, when you're learning from a teacher, just be sure that teacher doesn't tell you this is *the* way, because I promise you, there are many, many ways of understanding these teachings, and I think that's the only thing I struggle with philosophy teachers who think they have the answer to these questions. These are not questions that we can easily answer, and the translations reflect that, you know. And that's the other thing I I would say. Okay, can I can I keep... are we talking too long? Because I have one more thought about this around the Sutras that I just want to share, and that is, I think the biggest obstacle to people when they read the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali is that we come to it with our very modern Western sensibility and Patanjali is approaching the challenge of yoga in a different way than we are, like almost from the opposite side. And so there's just a basic misunderstanding that we come into it with a different worldview. I think it's a pretty simple problem, actually, that I can maybe help with, and that is that our worldview is generally that we are humans who identify as individual beings. Like, I'm Jivana, I'm a yoga teacher, and I'm a dad, and I'm whatever I am. All those ideas, I'm very much attached to those, and I see myself as a spiritual seeker. So that is not the way that the Sutras are framed. The Sutras are framed from a place of recognizing that we are eternal spiritual beings having this temporary human experience, and so everything that he's saying is about what is in the way. What's the mistake you've made? What is the misunderstanding that has kept you from perceiving the reality of your spiritual nature? Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, he's coming from the opposite side, and I think that if you can allow your mind to go there, to like think of yourself, just at least when you're studying the Sutras, it makes it just makes more sense. Do you know what I mean? Does that help?
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:21
Yeah, absolutely. It's a good reminder on perspective, right?
Jivana Heyman 59:24
Right, because I think people read it and they're like, what? Like, yogas chitta vritti nirodhah? Do you know what I mean? It's like, why am I trying to control my mind? And what am I trying to get? And it's just that's not it. You're not trying to get anything. You're trying to remember. You're trying to let go of these false identifications and remember who you really are, and that's all he's saying over and over again. It's almost like, to me, he's like a very patient parent who's just trying to say, like, well, if you didn't understand this way, let me explain it a different way, and then he gives you a different like, here are the five obstacles. Here's the eight limbs, you know. Here's the four locks and keys. Like he gives you all these little tools that help us to do that one thing, which is to switch the way we perceive ourselves. Okay, I'll stop.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:18
Thank you. No, I thought that was wonderful, and Verna, let us know if that... you know, send us another note and let us know if you have any follow-ups or how you received that.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:30
Yeah, thanks, Verna, and I I would say that honestly, like anyone listening, if you have any particular questions or comments, I would love to know. Like around yoga philosophy, it's my favorite. I would like to be challenged too. Like you don't have to agree with me. That's fine. That's the point!
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:47
Yes. Leave us a voicemail. Send us a text question or comment. You literally receive like a little mini workshop.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:54
Yeah, I think these teachings used to be taught in more of a debate fashion, where people would have different perspectives and argue over it in a respectful way, and I think that's been lost a lot. There seems to me like these days teachers just kind of teach and you're supposed to listen. And I think it's good to challenge your teacher. So challenge me, but nicely. Be nice about it! Yeah, because I have a weak ego, so you have to be nice to me. All right, so is that it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:27
I think we'll leave it there. That was great.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:30
All right, well, thanks, Verna, for that question, and of course, thank you, Kite, for a great interview and for writing a great book. And we'll put a link in the show notes for your book. Thanks, Deanna, as usual, and thanks everyone for listening. Talk to you soon, or hopefully be back soon. Okay, bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:48
Till next time.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:58
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement, to learn, to answer each other's questions, and to practice together. It's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need. And I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Sauza leads the other. And it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org. There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
