Jivana Heyman 0:17
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, Santa Barbara, California. And I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for joining me today. I have a really great conversation with Carol Krucoff. She's most well known for her work teaching yoga for older adults, and it's something I'm very interested in right now as I age, as I get older. I just turned 59, so it's definitely on my mind. And it's also the topic of our new course, Accessible Yoga for Older Adults, and Carol is on faculty, which I'm very grateful for. It's great to get to know her, to learn from her, and I'm sure you'll enjoy this conversation. I also want to remind you that I love getting your comments and questions, you can leave a voice message for me or a written comment, the details are in the show notes. Alright, so here's my conversation with Carol Krucoff.
Jivana Heyman 1:23
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Jivana Heyman 2:16
Okay, welcome back everyone. Hi, Carol. Thanks so much for being here. (Hello, Jivana.) Hi, I wonder if you could say hello and introduce yourself a little bit.
Carol Krucoff 2:25
I'm Carol Krucoff. I'm speaking from my home in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I'm a yoga therapist at Duke Integrative Medicine, and I'm just delighted to be your guest today.
Jivana Heyman 2:38
Well, I'm so glad you're here, and I've been following you for a long time. Before we even started working together, I was always impressed with you, and I think just because... I don't know, I feel like in terms of this world of older adults, you were always the name that I heard of, and that people referred to. You were the person to go to for that. Has that always been an interest of yours before you were older?
Carol Krucoff 3:04
Absolutely not. I completely stumbled into this, and in a way that surprised me now, when I look back over it. My original training was as a journalist, I was a reporter and editor at the Washington Post, back when that was a really wonderful and respected profession. Ben Bradley was my editor, Katherine Graham was the publisher. I started there right after Watergate. It was just a delight. I was a 22 year old reporter, you know, wanting to get on the front page, wearing high heels and the little floppy bow tie on my power suit, and I am so old that when I started at the Post, we used typewriters. In the first year that I was there, the editor would stand over your desk, you know, tapping his foot - because most of the editors were men - and pull the pages out of your typewriter and shoot it up to the composing room. The first year that I was there, they transitioned to computers, and those early computers had no ergonomic sensibilities, zero. They were these little stiff boxes, and here I was, you know, bent over this computer, working long hours, because I loved it, it was wonderful. And I developed really, really, really bad neck pain, and that's what sent me to yoga. My yoga class, I took a weekly yoga class that, I was also a runner at the time, I was very physically active, and truth be told, the first time I walked into a yoga class, I walked out really unimpressed. I mean, I didn't even break a sweat! What was this? It was like, ah, it didn't do it for me. But there was Lilias Folan on TV, and she had this great yoga program, and I thought, well, you know, it's supposed to help you relax, and I certainly could use that. So I went back to a different yoga class, and this time it really stuck. I mean, after shavasana, I was hooked.
Carol Krucoff 5:18
But for the first 20 years of my yoga life, Jivana, my yoga was a weekly yoga class. That was it, I didn't really do much outside of that. And then my husband and I moved to North Carolina from Washington in 1988. He's a cardiologist and he got the call from Duke, which was sort of Mecca for cardiology. So I kept writing for the Post. I was doing a column called Body Works about physical activity and health. I wrote for magazines. I was a contributing editor to Yoga Journal, The Prevention. I wrote for Reader's Digest. Back when that was a respectable profession and you could make a living. I stumbled into yoga teaching because it was the year 1999 and I was doing an article for Yoga Journal, the internet was just starting, and they wanted to do a feature on yoga in different parts of the country. So for a feature on yoga in the Triangle - I'm in North Carolina, and the Research Triangle is Raleigh-Durham Chapel Hill - I knew the couple of yoga studios in my area, but I hadn't seen the one in Raleigh, so I drove out to Raleigh, and I learned that there was going to be a yoga teacher training coming right up the street from me, 15 minutes up the street from me, a woman named Esther Myers, who had a studio in Toronto. She was amazing, amazing, amazing. I totally lucked into this training. It was a two year, 780 hour training. Yoga Alliance was just starting, and Esther was trying to figure out, like, how many hours is this? As part of Esther's training... I am getting to.. I'm going to answer your question.
Jivana Heyman 7:12
No, I love this story! I'm trying not to interrupt you because it's very exciting.
Carol Krucoff 7:17
I am going to tell you how I got to teach older adults. As part of Esther's training... and by the way, I really wasn't planning on teaching yoga. I didn't particularly want to be a yoga teacher, I was a journalist. I wanted the opportunity to deepen my own practice. I thought I can study with this amazing woman for two years and deepen my practice, and I also had a book coming out called Healing Moves: How to Cure, Relieve, and Prevent Common Ailments with Exercise, co-authored with my husband, that was kind of inspired by all the columns that I've been doing over the years about how physical activity really could enhance your health. Exercise science was kind of new at that time. Prior to that, it had been rest, rest, and people were just learning that no, you actually needed to move, that it was good for your health. As part of Esther's training, she required us to do 12 hours of community service. So, for my 12 hours of community service, I reached out, so Mitch, my husband, was at Duke, and he also had a worked at the VA. Duke administers the VA, Durham VA hospital, so I knew at the VA they had a program called Gerafit, which was a gerontology rehabilitation program. So these were mostly men, because it was a VA, but there, were some women there, and these were guys who were pretty sick to be there. They were in their 60s, 70s, 80s, that had coronary artery bypass surgery, they had artificial joints, some were on supplemental oxygen. In the Gerafit Gerontology Rehab program, they did strength training and aerobics. So I thought, well, for my 12 hours of community service, could I come in like once a week and teach yoga? And they said, well, yeah, we'd love you to do that, we can't pay you, and I said, no, no, no, I need to do community service, that would be just great.
Carol Krucoff 9:19
So I went to this gerontology rehab program... Esther's program was two years, I had had one year of the teacher training, and then I started to do my volunteer work, and I walked into this room, and I thought, oh my god, I am so in over my head. I cannot teach the sun salutation. I am so afraid I'm going to hurt these people, so I asked, can I just, like, watch? Can I just sit on the sidelines and watch what you guys do? And they said, of course. So I sat there and I saw them get on all fours - they did their floor X program, their calisthenics. They got on all fours and they did hump and slump, hump and slump. So the light bulb went off in my head, and I said, "Alright, they're already doing cat-cow, they did bridge, they did cobra, they did dandasana. In their floor X routine, there were at least eight or nine yoga poses that I knew, and I thought, "Well, if they're already doing that, chances are I'm not going to hurt them by doing that." And it was in a hospital, there was a nurse on duty, so I started with what they were already doing, and I added breathing, and I was flying by the seat of my pants. I added breathing, awareness, and this nice juicy shavasana at the end, and they loved it, and I loved it, and they came back to me, and they'd say, "Gosh, my doctor says my blood pressure is better. Gee, I don't need my cane as much. I can sleep better." I was so excited about this that instead of volunteering for 12 weeks and stopping, which is what I thought I would do, I volunteered there for five years, and it set me on a course of, "I want to do this, I want to help these people." I love it, they love it. I knew I needed more training, I just needed more, and then that's how I started.
Jivana Heyman 11:21
Wow, that's a great story. There are so many things that I wanted to... I just want to talk about you being a journalist a little bit. That was just really impressive. I mean, I think you know, I was a journalist too, but in a different world, like, basically an underground AIDS magazine. I was out there trying to gather information about alternative treatments for AIDS in the early days, when there were really no medical treatments available, and it was fun. But I had a great editor, and he really taught me how to write, and I also how to gather my thoughts in the way that a reporter does, and I see that in you and I think that's why I'm so attracted to your work, because I just feel like you're still doing that. The way you are analyzing and compiling information in your articles and books - I guess there's more than one book - makes me really happy. I just feel like a lot of yoga teachers, I'm not sure they have that background, and it doesn't feel like they know how to compile or consolidate information, or to just make it user friendly. You know how to look out beyond yoga, also into the medical and scientific world, which I see you doing all the time. So I just really appreciate that about your work. I can tell it's had a huge impact on the way that you teach, I think, and that way you share yoga. Would you say that's true?
Carol Krucoff 12:36
Thank you. That's very kind, and that's really true. In many ways I feel like my teaching is reporting. I mean, at this point, so I started teaching in the year 2000 and now it's 2026, so it's been 26 years that I've been teaching, and I learned so much from my students. I mean, my students have been my greatest teacher, and because my background is in medical journalism, and I read medical journal articles, and I've contributed now to numerous medical journals about yoga, that's kind of a passion of mine, is to bridge these worlds of medicine and yoga. And my husband Mitch is, as I said, a cardiologist, and we've been married 51 years! We were babies when we got married. We got married at 20, I'm 72 now. (Wow, congratulations.) Thank you. And being part of his career in that way, watching him go through medical school and residency and fellowship, and now, you know, he's still working full time. He loves what he does. Just trying to bridge those worlds. Too often, especially 20 years ago, in the yoga community, there was almost this antagonism it seemed to me. Like, doctors don't get it, and you can't trust doctors, and that's not my experience at all. Certainly, there are some doctors I don't trust, but it's the service, and... he's on call tonight. He might get a call at two, three in the morning and go in to help somebody who's having a heart attack. It's a demanding field, and a very rewarding one.
Jivana Heyman 14:31
Yeah, the service is amazing.
Carol Krucoff 14:33
Yeah, and so I do feel, in some ways, I'm reporting. As I'm teaching, I'm just learning, and I do have this desire to just share it, just what I've learned over 50 some years on the mat, and to share it as best I can.
Jivana Heyman 14:53
I mean, and you do. I think it's a shame that there is such a divide. I feel like we can learn so much from yoga, and you know, the kind of science of yoga, as well as Western science. Both are so valuable, and I don't know why they can't be joined together. Do you know what I mean? It feels like it doesn't need to be antagonistic at all.
Carol Krucoff 15:15
And I'm grateful for Duke Integrative Medicine, where I do practice yoga therapy, is that wonderful harmony of East and West. So, on the staff, there are, I'm the yoga therapist, there are a couple acupuncturists, there is nutritionists, there is allopathic medicine doctors, you know, traditional medicine who are trained as integrative medicine docs, health coaches, psychologists, and it's really a whole person approach to health that is possible. And the dream for integrative medicine was that this would be a model that others would follow, and I mean there are integrative medicine centers around the country, but it does come down to, unfortunately, much of yoga therapy is still out of pocket, insurance does not cover it, and that can be a barrier for people.
Jivana Heyman 16:10
Yeah. After I graduated teacher training, and I started working with Dean Ornish and trained with Nischala Devi and Jnani Chapman, who you might know, and Dean Ornish had his heart disease reversal program. So it was basically working in a cardiology clinic that I was teaching in, and it was so incredible for me to be working directly in a hospital with patients and with that kind of a community of medical people, like you said. The team was so amazing, and nutritionists, and nurses, and PTs, who were experts in cardiology. And to be brought in as a yoga therapist at that level was really amazing. And I thought that was the future, like I thought, "Oh, here we go!" And that was like, in the 90s, and then it didn't seem to like take off. I don't know. I don't know why exactly, but it was so nice to be respected and to have yoga put on a level with those other, you know, kind of more medically oriented professions, and to see the value of it, of the meditation and the stress relief and movement. I mean, just all of it. I think they really valued it, and it had great impacts. I mean, I think that program was kind of the early stages of yoga therapy in the West, and I just learned a lot. I learned a lot from Dean.
Carol Krucoff 17:32
And you know Dean Ornish published in, I believe it was the New England Journal of Medicine, his lifestyle heart disease trial, and that what got the attention of the medical community, because it was published in a respected journal, and he had these results. And that's why it's really important to me to publish in medical journals, because that's what doctors pay attention to. And I did train with Nischala as well, so in that period, in the early 2000s when I realized I need more training, I reached out for anybody I could grab, and Nischala, of course, had this wonderful program. It was 108 hours, I remember, because that's of course an auspicious number, and I did it with her down at the Sivananda Ashram down in the Bahamas, and we became good buddies. I did her training. I just trained with as many people as I had the wonderful opportunity as a journalist with Yoga Journal to interview Mr. Desikachar. He was in Cambridge, I can't remember when, 2010 something like that, and they sent me to do an interview with him, and that was... I still have - I had a tape recorder going at the time - he chanted for me, like beofre we even started. He says, "Madam, let me do a chanting for you." "Yes, thank you, please!" And I have it recorded, I have Mr. Desikachar chanting. He was an amazing man.
Carol Krucoff 17:47
And I do want to give a shout out to my colleague, Kimberly Carson. So, the Relax Into Yoga Seniors Training, we created - you know, as I was listening to your podcast, I've heard many people say this, and it's something I believe - we teach what we need to learn. Kimberly and I were looking for - we both trained with Nischala, we did the trainings that we could, but 25 years ago there weren't that many out there in this area. So I was talking with Mitch, and I'd say, you know, I had this guy who had a quadruple bypass, is it safe for him to do this or that? And I said, "Would you come and talk to a bunch of yoga teachers about heart disease, and maybe we could get somebody from cardiac rehab?" And I wanted a partner in this, and my friend Kimberly Carson, who now lives in Portland, Oregon, and is at Oregon Health Sciences University with her husband, Jim, who's a PhD clinical psychologist. Kimberly and I put together this program at Duke. We started with a weekend training to see if anybody would show up. We had Mitch come and talk about heart disease, and we asked Kathy Shipp, who was a doctor of physical therapy at Duke, specializing in osteoporosis, if she would talk about osteoporosis. And that was our weekend workshop, Yoga for Seniors, and we filled up. We had space for 40 people, it filled with a waiting list, and people said this was great, we need more. So over almost 20 years, Kimberly and I fleshed this training out. So we had Duke docs who would come talk about Alzheimer's and arthritis, PTs, health psychologists, and it was the Yoga for Seniors professional trainings. We have not done one in the last two years. Things have kind of shifted, but we did run them annually. We've trained more than 1,200 yoga teachers in this program.
Jivana Heyman 21:18
And the two of you did that book together, Relax Into Yoga for Seniors, correct?
Carol Krucoff 21:22
Exactly. And what we did, is we took after learning from all these different medical experts about what Western medical docs considered movement considerations for different health conditions like arthritis and heart disease. And of course, when you're teaching seniors, you're going to have everything in the class. It's really important to teach for whoever shows up in the room. We came down with a canon of postures that we feel are mostly safe for most older adults, particularly those who are living independently, and that's what we turned into Relax Into Yoga for Seniors. So that book came out in 2015, something like that, and it has downloadable teacher's guide, and we've got audio practices in there. And then with Jim, because Kimberly and Jim have spent their careers dedicated to mindfulness and meditation for chronic pain, that's with Jim's clinical practice, and Kimberly is an MBSR teacher. So the three of us together did a Relax Into Yoga for Chronic Pain, that's based on their work, which has been published in medical journals, some very key medical journals, including pain.
Jivana Heyman 22:53
And you have other books. I believe you have a bunch of them, if I'm not mistaken.
Carol Krucoff 22:57
I do. I have some that I did on my own. I have Yoga Sparks, which is 60-second yoga practices, which are not just asana, there's asana, there's breathing, there's meditation, and there's principles like letting someone else take the last brownie on the plate, is a yoga practice. [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 23:19
That's awesome. And one about neck and shoulder pain.
Carol Krucoff 23:23
Yeah, Neck and Shoulder Pain came out of my own direct experience. Again, I said neck pain is what brought me to yoga, and you know, in my yoga life, I guess, like many people, you know, who start in their 20s, I was in it for the physicality and the postures and the flexibility and the relaxation, and I was all about standing on my head and turning into pretzels. And that that shifted pretty dramatic. I did the Ashtanga practice in my 40s, I was a big Ashtanga practitioner. When my kids were little, I did martial arts. That was sort of a side life, which my son Max was the youngest black belt at his dojo. And when the sensei said, "Oh, Mrs. Krucoff, you have two children in the program, so now you have a family membership, anybody else in the family can take classes for free." And I thought, well, that's great. Instead of sitting on the sidelines, I'll just jump in the kids class. And I got hooked on karate, so I studied martial arts for 10 years. I have a second degree black belt, and I love really pushing myself physically, and yoga is not that. But they do share - martial arts and yoga - share the cultivation of energy and the ability to move energy through the body. And in martial arts we use that energy to break boards or break an attacker. Of course, in yoga, that's it's a very different... we use that energy to transcend our physical selves and connect to the divine.
Jivana Heyman 25:12
I love that you framed it that way, because I think we forget about how we're building all this prana, you know, in yoga, and sometimes I say, you know, what are you doing with all that energy? Like, people are doing all these yoga classes, a lot of asana, hopefully pranayama, meditation, and then what? They just go back to their lives, and I think traditionally it was supposed to be of service. And so one of the things I've been asking this podcast is this balancing caring for yourself, of course, some of the energy can go to yourself and your own healing, and then some is offered to the world in some way. I can tell already, I mean, you've offered a lot of service in the world through your teaching, through your writing, obviously through your family. I just wonder if you have thoughts about that, you know, creating that balance?
Carol Krucoff 25:56
That's such a good question. And as I'm in my seventh decade of life, it's very interesting that I'm still thinking about work-life balance. I mean, I see my kids, my daughter, who has little young children, and my son also, and daughter-in-law, and son-in-law, balancing work-life balance. For me, my self-care is my practice. I remember a yoga teacher saying early on that the best classes come out of your own practice, and if you don't practice, you can't teach. Just getting onto the mat every day, and it's not always an asana practice. I mean, today my practice was yoga nidra, because it's been a busy time, and that was my practice. So, that's really, how I try to care for myself, is being very disciplined about practice.
Jivana Heyman 27:03
That's great. Thank you. I'm curious, what you think, since you have been teaching so long, how the yoga world has changed in terms, especially of this population, of how older adults are seen and taught? Do you feel like, I know your work has made an impact, but I just wonder if you feel like overall there's been a shift at all, if there's more awareness of, you know, different communities and different individuals' needs within the yoga world?
Carol Krucoff 27:29
Well, I think one of the biggest shifts I've seen in the yoga world I would credit to you and Accessible Yoga, and just recognizing that when Kimberly and I started doing this work in the early 2000s, we were told by some prominent yoga teachers that we were creating fear in the yoga community, because we were suggesting that people could get hurt doing postures. We were saying certain postures may be risky. And back then, back in the time, oh, if you got hurt doing yoga, it was because your chakras weren't open or you weren't aligned with the divine! It wasn't the practice! So that's been a huge shift. The other shift I feel is kind of unfortunate in a way that, as yoga has become so commercial, it is still unfortunately seen as a fitness exercise. It's seen as exercise and a workout, and this is something that I'm constantly suggesting is yoga is a work-in, if anything. And it is lovely that there's more available to older adults, but I still see inexperienced and well-meaning teachers teaching things that are not safe. Out of the goodness of their hearts. And I was looking online at some of the online video, like the chair videos for older adults taught by 20 somethings. Not that a 20 year old couldn't teach well, but no.
Jivana Heyman 29:18
I feel the same. I actually, I had a training just a few months ago, and I had a PT in the room arguing with me about the precautions I was giving around older adults, because I've learned a lot from you and others, you know, and my own students. I mean, yoga is probably, if you looked at it compared to other forms of exercise, is probably one of the safest for older adults. But like you said, it's not exercise. But even within that, you know, our goal is ahimsa, and that should be the priority, right? That's the main thing, is that no one gets hurt, and I just think there's no reason to be doing particular things in a yoga class when you have older adults there, and so often they are there, you know, or disabled folks. In a yoga class, in a public class, you're going to have a few older people, a few disabled folks, even if you don't know their age or what their disabilities are, they're there. And I just feel like all yoga teachers should have that knowledge just to keep people safe, just to make sure there's no potential harm. I don't know if you want to talk about it briefly, but some of the things I've learned from your research is just around, you know, the more potentially dangerous things we can be doing, and I think often what I've learned from you too is like it's the intensity that's the biggest issue, right, that it has to do with just pulling back slightly with older adults, right?
Carol Krucoff 30:43
Very much so. So it's not just what you do, it's how you do it in a yoga practice. So coming from the fitness world where I was giving 110%, and from the martial arts world where you don't think about how you feel, you don't think about the bruises you're going to get, you just, you just strike. Yoga is not that. I tell my students, just erase all of that. I don't want you to give me 110%. 70-80%. In cardiac rehab, they call that perceived exertion. You want to challenge yourself, but avoid strain, so don't be lazy, but don't be pushy either. And that's the sthira sukham asanam, it's the stable pose. So it's your approach, and that's one of the things that comes up often when I'm teaching older adults, is that they feel like they should be doing that, or they used to and why can't they? And there's a sense of loss or shame, and I respect that. I mean, I haven't done a sun salutation in probably at least a decade since I was diagnosed with low bone density, I mean, straight-legged forward bends are biomechanically not good for anybody of any age, not just for your bones, but for your discs. What does a PT tell you? If you're going to pick up something from the floor, bend your knees, so yet in yoga we're lifting the kneecap, swan-diving forward.
Jivana Heyman 32:31
I know! We're gonna get reaction to this, and that's fine. I want to hear what people say, because I know that there's so much... The argument I'm hearing, actually, these days isn't so much around the mechanics, but more like, oh, around pain, and you have a book about chronic pain, right, so you know about that. But the arguments I'm hearing are, well, pain isn't really happening because there's even an injury, necessarily, but because it's the brain and the nervous system that experience pain, and so if we put, you know, the nocebo effect. If we give warnings, and if we use fear-based language, then we're creating the possibility for pain. So I'm just saying that's the argument I'm hearing more, and I get that. I don't want to scare anyone, but I also know that I have a responsibility.
Carol Krucoff 33:19
Snd there's a way to say it, so you're not talking about what you can't do, you're talking about what you can do. So, as you make sure you teach the hip hinge, and this is a neutral spine, and bend your knees and hinge forwards. I'm not saying be careful not to round your spine, or you might get a vertebral fracture. That's not what I'm saying in the classroom, I'm teaching what you can do. And you know, I don't do shoulder stand anymore. Shoulder stand was my favorite, favorite, favorite pose back in my 20s in the Iyengar days. I still have the three thick blankets because I love shoulder stand, but I gave it up because I have low bone density and the risk is not worth the benefit to me. So I've wrestled with, why am I so attached to shoulder stand? What is it about shoulder stand? And there are so many things I can do, and I have a very vigorous practice that's appropriate for me, without revolve triangle in it.
Jivana Heyman 34:30
Anyway. I appreciate you, I really do, and appreciate that perspective. It's helped me a lot.
Carol Krucoff 34:34
We'll hear from people, and that's okay.
Jivana Heyman 34:36
That is good. But I quote you, so just so you know. I refer to your work and say, "Well, that's what Carol said, so..."
Carol Krucoff 34:45
Well, I practice what I preach. I have heard some people in the yoga community say that, you know, the advice for osteoporosis is to not twist or not bend forward, and how can you go through your daily life if you don't twist or you don't bend forward. And that's not the advice. I mean, I had a woman poke her head into my gentle yoga class, and she was stiff like a statue, and she said, I'd like to take your class, but I have osteoporosis, and my doctor says I can't bend and I can't twist, and I said, "Oh, thank you for sharing that, that's such important information for me to know." I said, "Did you drive here?" And she said, "Yes." I said, "How are you going to get out of the parking lot?" I mean, you have to twist. What I try to do is teach people, the advice and the recommendation is to keep the twists in mid-range, to lengthen the spine before you twist, to twist with a gentle range, to keep it in mid-range with a fluid motion as opposed to ballistic. And yeah absolutely it's important to rotate the spine. You've got to bend forward. When I brush my teeth, I got to spit over the sink. I bend my knees and I keep a neutral spine. And when I put my shoes on, I prop my feet up on a hassock, so I can keep a neutral spine when I tie my shoes. So I do practice what I preach, I'm not telling people to do something that I'm not doing myself in my own body.
Jivana Heyman 36:26
Right. And again, I like what you said earlier about it's the way you're doing it, too. You know, I think that's maybe the key, and also that's not what yoga is about in the end. So, as you said earlier, that's not what yoga is for. It's not just for the asana, it's much more.
Carol Krucoff 36:45
If I may, I'd like to just share that that really hit me dramatically when I was right before my 50th birthday, which I almost didn't live to see, because I did a marathon with my friend, and we went to Jamaica. This was the woman I got my black belt with, my black belt buddy, and I went to do a marathon, and I drank so much water that right over the finish line I collapsed with severe hyponatremia, and I was air ambulanced to Duke, and I was in a coma for four days. I wrote about it in the LA Times. They still, I think, have it on their website, but when I woke up in, in the neuro intensive care unit, and no idea how I got there, my ankles were bound because I had been spasming, apparently I had a big bandage on my forehead because I had fallen out of bed, and they put 36 stitches in my forehead. My nose had a big bump, and my tooth was cracked. But I actually woke up. I tend to be kind of anxious person. I woke up with a sense of wonder and awe and complete bliss, that I call it post-traumatic bliss syndrome. I knew I was going to be fine, and I practiced yoga in intensive care. It didn't look like the Ashtanga primary series, but I came to appreciate breathing and meditation and gentle movement, so that shifted a lot about how I practice yoga, because I had been so asana focused before that. And if you lose the asana, then what have you got left?
Jivana Heyman 38:25
And actually, we're all going to lose it eventually. So, I mean, it's amazing that you were willing to learn that lesson at that age.
Carol Krucoff 38:32
Well I sort of had to!
Jivana Heyman 38:34
Yeah. I mean, I was lucky because my grandmother taught me yoga, and so she was really my first teacher, and I watched her get older and stop doing asana, and still be incredibly wise and an incredibly peaceful person into her 80s and early 90s. She was sad to stop doing asana, but she was very clear about it. She was like, "I can't do it anymore." And she was still a great yogi, yoga practitioner to me, and just showed me that it's so much more than that. So, I think there is something that comes with age, that yeah, you might lose some of that physical capacity, but so much more is possible.
Carol Krucoff 39:14
I love that. Thank you for that, Jivana. I have bought all my grandchildren, except for the six month old doesn't have a yoga mat yet, but all my grandchildren yoga mats, and we practice yoga. Their favorite pose is dead bug, lying on the back, waving your arms and legs around.
Jivana Heyman 39:34
Well my grandmother didn't make it fun. She wasn't a yoga teacher, she just had her own practice, but she was incredibly dedicated, and to me it was more like exciting, and kind of like something special that I got to do. She would let me come and practice. I had a big family, so it was like our special time, and I would just go. I think it's because also she moved in with us when my little sister was born, so it was kind of like she was taking care of me at that age. But it made yoga this special thing that I had with her, and I know I tried with my kids and failed. I mean, I know they have it in there, but they don't actively practice, but that's, you know, hopefully they'll come back to it someday.
Carol Krucoff 40:18
Maybe it'll skip a generation, wait for your grandkids.
Jivana Heyman 40:22
Yes, no grandkids yet for me. I'm not ready for that. Anyway. Thanks so much, Carol. I don't know if you have anything else you wanted to share, but I appreciate everything you shared already.
Carol Krucoff 40:33
Oh, thank you. This has been such a great opportunity to speak with you and your listeners, and I'm just very grateful for the time and the practice.
Jivana Heyman 40:46
Well, thank you. Thanks again for everything, and all you do, and all you've shared, and your books, and your articles, and your teaching. It's amazing. So, thanks, Carol.
Carol Krucoff 40:54
Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 41:04
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Jivana Heyman 41:59
Welcome back everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:01
Hello, Jivana. Hi, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 42:03
How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:04
I'm doing well. And how about yourself?
Jivana Heyman 42:07
I'm good. I am. I'm good. Yeah, what's going on?
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:11
I was just looking at a yoga schedule to see what's happening tonight around me.
Jivana Heyman 42:16
Really?
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:17
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 42:17
Yoga in Berlin, will that be in German then?
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:20
They have a lot of English classes, I have to say. Berlin is unique in that way. You can get away with not speaking German here, which is sad. So, that's why I'm trying to learn it.
Jivana Heyman 42:28
But wouldn't that be a good way, since you're learning German, wouldn't it be fun to take a class in German? I've actually taken many yoga classes in German, I have to say, and it's a fun way to learn. I mean, well, I didn't really learn German. So maybe it's not effective! But because you kind of know what they're doing, and especially if they use the Sanskrit name of the pose.
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:48
Yeah, that's true. If you assign me to go, I'll go and report back in the next month. We'll see, they might be annoyed. Like, why are you here?
Jivana Heyman 42:58
I think your German teacher should assign that for you. It seems like a good kind of thing to do as part of your, I mean, you're taking intensive German, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:05
I am taking, and it's going slow going. If there are perimenopausal peeps out there, learning a language is tough when you're a certain age.
Jivana Heyman 43:14
Right, that's probably true. But it's fun because you learn all those body parts in a yoga class, so you might want to study up on that a little bit before you go, just like all the body parts and how to say them in German, because that's what you'll have to figure out what they're saying.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:31
Yeah, I'll review that section, I'll understand, like, downward hund. Hund, it'll be one of two poses. [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 43:37
Yeah. I taught at an ashram in Austria for many years, like over a decade, and so I would take German classes all the time, and it was so much fun. I just, I loved it in other languages too. I've taken many classes in French and Spanish, and in Greek, even. You would get that, you speak Greek! So, I don't know, I just find it really fun, especially if you're with a group, you can kind of follow along anyway.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:03
Yeah, it's true. And you know, it kind of reminds me of that section of your book, The Teacher's Guide to Accessible Yoga. I don't know if you want to talk about it for a second, but it was such an interesting lesson. Were you in Germany or Austria at the time?
Jivana Heyman 44:17
Yeah, yeah, it's the opening of the book, I think I give the opening story is where I was leading my first training internationally, and it was an incredibly international group at this ashram in Austria. There were people who spoke so many different languages, and we were breaking up into small groups to do practice teaching, and I realized that they should be able to teach in their own languages, right? Like, because I had an interpreter, so I was teaching in English, and I had interpreter in German, but many of them were primarily, you know, Spanish speaking or French speaking or Italian speaking, and so I let them break into groups with other people who spoke their languages. It was quite complicated to figure out, but we kind of got there. But then I realized the problem was I couldn't understand enough of those languages to know what the heck they were saying! I stressed about it, but then it kind of like when I sat down and just kind of observed them all, it just kind of washed over me, and I realized that yoga is this, you know, is like a language beyond words. It's just was this different language that I could feel the yoga happening, and it was really true. I could watch them teaching in Italian and in French and Spanish and German, and really very clearly see what was happening. Not only could I see whether they were focused and if the student was understanding the teacher, but you could kind of get the energy, you know, like the shift in energy that would happen. It was really profound for me, actually. Well, it's funny because in this podcast episode we kind of talk about that a bit with Carol. I'm so impressed with Carol, in general, but the fact that she wrote for the Washington Post for so long is just incredible to me. I had a very short career as a reporter. It went on for a couple years, but it wasn't anywhere like what she had, and just the ability to work with words and language is so important to me and it's important to me as a yoga teacher, but I also see that yoga is really so much more.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:22
It's a beautiful story that you talked about from your book, and I think we can all feel that come through. And yeah, your episode with Carol was incredible. She's an incredible being, so much to learn from her, and that was interesting, the communication piece, because you were talking about how she kind of brought her profession over to her yoga teaching profession, like her writing and reporting to yoga teacher, and you know, you brought up that, like, a lot of yoga teachers need support in that arena.
Jivana Heyman 46:47
Right. I mean, she obviously is really good at using words and communicating her ideas in the way she teaches, and also writes about yoga in her books. But I think most yoga teachers don't have the background in writing and reporting, and now analyzing their own communication skills. Maybe beyond reporting, there's so many other types of jobs that call for that, for really being clear in your communication. But I don't know if yoga teachers always have that automatically, and some of us get training in it a little bit in our teacher training, but not always.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:22
That's interesting.
Jivana Heyman 47:24
Yeah, and sometimes there's a little bit of training around... well, there's different topics here. One is like, projection and actually being heard, and how to use your voice as an instrument of teaching, but the other thing is the language you use and the kind of the way you phrase things. Whether it's command language or very passive language. I think in the Teacher's Guide, in that same book, I give an example of how (I think it's in that book) you can phrase things the same instruction in like an endless number of ways. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, raise your arms. It could be, 'I'm raising my arms.' 'Arms rise.' You know, like the passive. 'Let's raise our arms.' 'Raise your arms if you feel like it." 'Notice how it feels as you raise your arms.' There's just so many ways to do it, as a question, as a command, as this, like, yeah, that weird passive language thing we do. First person, like, 'I'm raising my arms.' 'Raise your arms,' second person. Or, 'Let's raise our arms,' third person, plural. There's just so many ways to phrase instructions in yoga, and I love to talk about that in my trainings, but I just think it's useful as a teacher to... not that any one way is better than another, but to like reflect on. What am I doing, like what am I saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:48
We experienced that editing too, like for the magazine, right? Because it's like, you know, when you and I are editing pieces, where it's like...
Jivana Heyman 48:55
Editing my book too! Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:57
Raise your arm / raise the arms. It's kind of like, how does that change things if you're reading it or experiencing as a student? Does 'the' create like a little bit of distance that's welcome, or do we want to like have some embodied language? So it's interesting to see how it feels.
Jivana Heyman 49:14
Pronoun usage is like a big debate in the yoga world, pronoun usage, because I was trained to not, I was trained that you should use 'the arm' to, like, make it more objective, because we're supposed to be identifying as spiritual beings and not as the body. But I feel like that actually tends to lead us towards disembodiment, to like not being embodied, and I think most of us need to really focus on that. So I try to avoid that these days, and mostly use pronouns, and I think it's great for people to hear that language, like my arm, my body, to really identify with being in the body in class. I think for most of us that's really helpful, but yeah, that's such a good point. There's so many ways that language impacts the way we teach. Much, because that is the tool, that is the main tool of the yoga teacher, words and mostly spoken language. I mean, there's other tools, right, like demonstrating and stuff like that, but the main one is words.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:11
Do you have any thoughts for yoga teachers? Like, how do you start experimenting with this, or like finding the language that's feels good to share? Does it start with practicing yourself and noticing how you respond to certain cues?
Jivana Heyman 50:25
I think, with anything, the first thing is awareness, to increase your awareness around what you're currently doing, especially if you were trained in a particular tradition or through a very powerful teacher who has a particular style, because I think there's a tendency to want to copy our teachers. I mean, we kind of have to, right? Like, in most teacher training, we're being trained to teach like our teachers do, so we tend to speak like them. And, in fact, I've had the experience where I've taken a yoga class and I knew who that person's teacher was, because they were speaking just like them, like the same phrasing, so I think it's totally normal to do that. But over time I think it's worth reflecting on whether that's your voice or is that your teacher's voice? And then I think over time it's good to evolve your own voice, which might be similar to your teacher's or not, I'm not saying there's one right way. So there's that question, is are you just copying what you were told to do, or are you really finding your voice? And finding your voice might mean phrasing things a little differently, and especially if it's more comfortable for you. I think as a teacher it's important to feel really connected to the words that we're saying, because communication, the words are simply the means to the end, right?
Jivana Heyman 51:45
We're trying to communicate concepts and ideas, and for communication to happen, we have to really understand what it is that we're asking people to do. What is it that we're sharing? What is the actual point of the words that you're saying? So the words themselves don't really have much meaning. It's more like, what is it conveying? So I just think awareness, to focus on that. Think about, is this how I want to be speaking? And also, is this how I want to be spoken to? Like, is this what I would want someone to say to me? And then also to ask yourself, when you're teaching, is it working? Does this land? Do my students understand the language I'm using? Because sometimes I think sometimes we use yoga words that people have no idea what they mean, like 'root down,' or even the concept of grounding, I think, is very foreign to a lot of people outside of the yoga world. I always say most people think of grounding as like grounding your teenagers, but in yoga it's a whole different thing. It's like energetic. So ask yourself, do my students understand my language? Am I able to communicate what I want through the words I'm using? I think that's the main thing, and also you can ask them. I think it's great to ask your students that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:08
Yeah, sometimes it's the simplest thing that you just.. yeah, is this working? Does everyone understand?
Jivana Heyman 53:13
Yeah, and also, like, you know, sometimes we use kind of more medical terminology, or anatomy and physiology terminology, and that could be helpful or not, depending on the student. So I think to reflect on that too. One thing that I worry about a bit, and this is maybe very detailed, but in the Accessible Yoga world, I like to be really careful that we're not condescending to our communities. I'm afraid I've heard some teachers do that a bit, where there's a little bit of condescension. Whether you're talking to someone who is older, and I think that's where it occurs mostly, is like talking to an older person, but in almost like a infantilizing way, like a child or to disabled people, as if they don't understand what you're saying. I think you just need to be really cautious about that. So, just make sure you're not talking down to people, and, and also, part of talking down to people is overly worrying about them. Do you know what I mean? Like overly careful. Like, for example, the word 'just' - I try not to use the word 'just' when I'm teaching, but this is an example of where I think we're trying to make something sound easier, like, 'Just extend your leg... just extend your leg out a little bit.' I don't know. I think what we're trying to say is, you know, it's not going to be too challenging or maybe we're trying to say, don't push yourself too hard. And that's a good idea, but instead we say, 'Just raise your arms to the side, and then, if it's comfortable, go high...' Do you know what I'm saying? I don't know if it's coming out, but it's almost like demeaning.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:11
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Or I think sometimes, it's been my experience, where - and I think this can be helpful in some cases - where you see somebody who could benefit from a prop, or this or that, and then you invite the entire class to try this certain posture with a... or it could be just any number of things, but I also think it's easy for someone... you know, this is very nuanced, it's not always with a prop, but like when a teacher tries to like say something to the entire class, but you know it's about you, as a student. You could feel, even though I know it's an invitation, it's like you kind of know, and you feel a little singled out anyway.
Jivana Heyman 55:52
Yeah, that can be challenging. Yeah, you have to be careful to be careful to again treat people like we want to be treated, but regarding that, regarding like giving variations too, I think that's where language can come in. Because we don't want to necessarily teach a pose and then say, 'If you can't do that, then do this.' 'If you can't do this version of the pose, then do this other one.' Or, 'If you can't do this, you can modify in this way, or adapt in this way.' Or, 'If you can't do this, then use a prop.' Because basically that languaging, that setup, is making it seem less than. Like, you can't do the right one, well, just do the second best, and that's not really... so we have to equalize the variations that we offer, equalize all of the options, all the prop usage, constantly find a way to use our language to remember that one way of practicing is not better or worse than another. Yeah, it's a big topic, actually. In fact, in my book, The Teacher's Guide, I spend probably most of the book talking about language, honestly, and I know I've tried to cover a lot just now. I hope it made some sense, because we covered a lot there.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:06
Well, yeah, that was awesome. Thank you, Jivana. And also, though, I wanted to cover from your conversation with Carol, because you two talked a lot about, you know, creating more safety for older adults in class, because that's a huge topic as well. You two talked a lot about it's not exactly just what you do, but it's how you do it, and it sounded like Carol sort of has some differing opinions than guidelines. So, anyway, I wanted to know if you want to talk about that in terms content for older adults?
Jivana Heyman 57:37
I think it's probably the most controversial thing that we talked about, and I know that it comes up a lot when we talk about yoga for older adults, in particular, and that training, you know, that we're doing on Yoga for Older Adults, so it'll be a topic that we cover in detail. I would say that there's not an easy answer, that it's a subtle area. I think what it is, is that as yoga teachers we need to have all the information and then make decisions in the moment based on actual information that we have in order to keep our students safe and to create an effective practice for them. But I want to say that we do need to prioritize safety, and I think that when you're working with older adults, there are certain things that are slightly more dangerous than younger people, and there is research that shows that yoga is incredibly safe. I think I mentioned this when I was talking to Carol, like, you know, yoga is considered, if you called it exercise, which we won't, but they often, 'they,' meaning researchers, often classify yoga as exercise, and it's considered almost like one of the safest forms of exercise that people can do, except for older adults. So if you look at the injuries that occur in yoga, it increases dramatically in older people, and that just concerns me because, to me, that means that those older adults aren't being taught well, that they're actually being taught maybe in the same way as younger folks, or without a lot of awareness on the part of the teacher to the danger that they're facing.
Jivana Heyman 59:18
And I don't want to overemphasize it and scare anybody, like that's not the point. I think the point is that yoga teachers need to have the information. So as teachers we need to have the information, we need to know the facts. And then when we're teaching, we need to find a way to be just very gentle in the way that we share that without scaring people. We want them to practice, right? We want older folks to practice yoga. We don't want to scare them away at all, but you want to be conscious of what's going on, and also you want to give them the right and the agency over their own body to make decisions for themselves about their own health and safety. And I feel like we need to find a way to balance that, as teachers, to give people information to make their own choices. Because in many ways, I think, for the teacher and for the student, I like to call it like a risk benefit analysis that needs to occur. And it can be a very quick thing that happens, but you know, yes, every practice has risks and every practice has benefits, and so you need to do an analysis, so like kind of compare them and think, well, which is really best here in this situation? Would it be better to err on the more gentle side and maybe not do this practice or not hold it as long, or would it be better to go for it and focus on the potential benefits? It's really hard to say. I think what she brought up was forward bends. That's the place people usually get stuck, especially, and I mean stuck, meaning like thinking about this stuck, especially if people have osteoporosis or osteopenia, which is the precursor, you know, which is bone loss.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:58
And twists, you two talked about.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:01
Is that what we talked about?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:02
Twists as well as forward bends, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:04
And I think Carol didn't, she say something like how it's not what you're doing is how. (Exactly.) Yeah, and I thought that was a beautiful answer, because it's not that forward bending is necessarily bad. We all forward bend all day long, it's just doing it in a careful, conscious way with awareness, and it can help avoid injury. And I would just say to people that are kind of naysayers about this, and I do have some online debates with people occasionally about this. There's some yoga teachers that are really very fervently in the camp that yoga is safe, and that we need people to move and move their bodies. And I get that, but I think it shows to me a bit of ableism, to not recognize the impact that a small injury can have on someone's life. And as an older person myself, I'm almost there, I just know that as we age, and this is true of disabled folks too, that a small injury can impact us much more deeply than a younger person. So, for example, say the same injury occurs for an older person in a yoga class as a younger person, so maybe it's like they pull a muscle, just like a strain on a muscle. An older person, that might take a solid week to heal, and a younger person, it might literally heal in a day or overnight. That's just because of the resiliency of our bodies and the way that our bodies change as we age, for many, many reasons. And I just feel like just because, based on that alone, I would be more careful with that older person to just make sure that I'm not going to give them an injury that's going to impact them for a whole week or to a greater degree than that younger person. So, yeah. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:58
It does make sense. It's very nuanced.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:01
Yeah, because the part of it that we want to encourage is movement, right? Like, the only way you get stronger and more flexible is through movement, and movement is life, and asana is amazing, but it just needs to be done carefully. That's all. Maybe a little slower, maybe a little gentler, maybe a different variation, maybe with more awareness than when you're younger, so if you're an older person who has a practice already, great, like, go for it. I think what we're talking about mostly is people who are newer to yoga or relatively sedentary coming into yoga class. A lot of people sometimes they hear, oh, yoga is good for me, or their doctor literally tells them you should do yoga, so then they go to a regular yoga class, like a vinyasa flow class, and they may get injured, or they may think this is not for me, and then never come back. So, yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:53
Well, thanks for that. I know that you will be discussing it more in our course, Yoga for Older Adults.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:59
Yeah, that's the point of the course, actually, is to give yoga teachers the tools they need to keep their students safe and not to scare anybody at all. You know, yoga is amazing for all of us, and actually, there's so many strengths that older folks have, like we're only talking about asana here, and particular challenges for older folks, but by the way, older folks have other ways of coming into yoga practice that are different than younger folks. We have more lived experience, we learn differently, we have a vision of life and of our limited time on this planet that can impact our spiritual practices greatly. So, I think many older folks are more open to spiritual teachings and to meditation than younger people might be, not always, but sometimes. So, I just feel like it's not just about the body always, it's also about where we are in our lifespan.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:04:52
Well, thank you for that, Jivana. I do want to say it's exciting because we have a question for you that came in, so I want to make sure we have time for that.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:00
Okay, yay!
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:02
This question is from Reika.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:06
Reika had me on her podcast. Maybe we can link to that in the show notes.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:11
Perfect. All right. The question is, "I would love to hear your thoughts on the dual and non-dual approaches to yoga philosophy. My understanding is that the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali are generally taught from a dualistic perspective, but I still feel confused by the many different interpretations and approaches people take when teaching yoga philosophy. Could you explain the differences between dual and non-dual philosophy within yoga, and how students and teachers might thoughtfully approach or understand these different perspectives?" Such a good question.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:41
I know that's like the question I would write.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:45
We didn't plant this, everyone. It's a real question!
Jivana Heyman 1:05:49
I know! Let me see if I can keep it brief, because it's kind of a big question. Well, I'll mention one thing, which is funny, I did a yoga philosophy course with Anjali Rao a couple years ago, and I think it's still available on-demand, we could link to that as well. And in the course, we really wanted to address this topic, and so we decided to have, like, a game. I don't know what you call it... almost like a debate, where we took sides. So I took the side of dualism, and she took the side of non-dualism, and we tried to convince the participants that our way was the right way. That you should think like me, and so it was fun! I'm really into dualism, and she's really into non-dualism, so it was fun to do that. But in the end, what we kind of realized was that in the end it's all kind of the same. It's just coming at the problem in a slightly different way, like from the other side. So I guess that's one thought, is that they're not that different, actually, it's just a different perspective on the situation. So, let's see, the dualism side - which is Patanjali's approach, and often we call his approach classical yoga - so you'll hear that phrase used. The classical yoga approach is the idea of there being two things, and that both are true, both are real. And so one is that spirit, which he calls Purusha, is there's this kind of underlying spirit beyond everything, right, or consciousness, you could even call it. And then there's Prakriti, which is nature or creation. So then there's the manifested world, right, Prakriti. So there's both, there's Purusha and Prakriti, and both are real, like I'm a human being, I have a body and a mind, that's a real thing, and I also am a spiritual being.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:44
And by the way, the entire Sutras, really, I think, well, maybe not the whole thing, but I think his main point in the Sutras is to have a shift our identification from creation, our body, mind, that is limited and temporary - but still real - to the eternal spirit, the Purusha, that is who we are, the consciousness within us. So his whole philosophy is basically, stop identifying with your body / mind, and instead identify as a spiritual being. And I like that approach personally, like I said, because to me it's more accessible. I like accessible basic things that just are logical. Like, my experience is very much so that my body is real, like I feel very much like I'm alive and I'm having this experience, and I think most people feel that way, but I also acknowledge that I have this consciousness within me that feels that it transcends this limited life. And that's what I love about yoga, that recognition that that's who I really am, and that part of me might be reincarnated, and it will live eternally, and it has existed forever, and that is very compelling. Anyway, non-duality, which is more of the Vedanta traditions, and you find it in a lot of the yoga teachings, some of the earlier teachings of yoga, like even in the Bhagavad Gita, there's both. You know, in the Gita, Krishna kind of goes between them a little bit, but even in some of the Upanishads, it's definitely a non-dual focus. The idea there is simply that yes, you have a body and mind, but that is an illusion. Because it is temporary, it's not real. It's just, you think you have a body and mind, but really everything is a manifestation of spirit, and the focus there is on oneness, recognizing that everything is an aspect of spirit, whether you're seeing it as real or not. And I get that, like, on a very intellectual basis. I can kind of understand that idea of oneness, and I think, oddly, we see that idea has really taken over in contemporary yoga. I think maybe that's what Reika is referring to, where she gets confused, because it is confusing. I think that idea is a little bit of... I don't know what the word is. It's like one of those things... it's like those phrases you just say because you want to make people feel better, but... do you know what I'm saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:10:21
It kind of smooths over difficult conversations to say, "Oh, we're all one," in a way that bypasses, right?
Jivana Heyman 1:10:27
Right, yeah, that's the danger there is spiritual bypassing. It doesn't always lead to spiritual bypassing, I shouldn't say, but I think it's potential downfall of non-duality is bypassing the very real experience that people have. And that's the other reason I love duality and dual philosophy so much, because it acknowledges that our human experience is real and profound and individual, and that as individuals, we suffer, and that our experience is different than everyone else's. So based on your positionality, your body type, your race, your gender, your sexual orientation, and all those factors, your financial status, those all greatly impact your lived experience. And according to the dualistic philosophy, those are real. Those are real experiences you're having. We're not denying that. What we're saying in duality is, yes, that's true, but at the same time, there's some other truth. That beyond that there is an eternal consciousness within you that is unchanging, independent from your lived experience. Independence is actually a word that's used in the Sutras. There's part of you that's free, and I think that's quite beautiful, but that's just what I prefer. Like I said, Anjali and I debated that. I thought it was fun to hear her side. I get it. Non-duality is very compelling, and it may be true in the end. Like, I'm not saying it's not. Like, I don't know if duality is true. I just know it's easier for me and my mind to relate to, and that's what the Sutras come from. It helps a lot to remember that when you're reading the Sutras and studying them, because Patanjali is often just making that argument in like 100 different ways, but also recognize that non-duality exists within our tradition.
Jivana Heyman 1:12:20
And that's the thing, our tradition is multiple traditions. Yoga is vast, none of us can comprehend all of it. I have no idea what all of yoga is. There's so many different paths in this tradition, like literally 1000s and 1000s of years of teaching and practice, and different approaches. And I don't know if I'm explaining it that well, but I just feel like it's not about finding the right way or the right answer, in as much as, for me, it's about finding what works for you, for everyone. Each of us can make a choice about the way we want to imagine spirituality and our own personal relationship with the divine, or energy, whatever word you want to use. I think that is the most important point, is that we each individually figure it out for ourselves, and that could be like, I think, about the 12-Step program, and the huge emphasis in the 12-Step program on your higher power, and that giving yourself over to God in the 12-Step program. To me, that just shows the importance of having spiritual connection, and it could be within the context of religion, or it could be outside of that. And what I love about yoga is that it can be outside of religion, although it can support you if you have a religion as well, but you don't have to be like really into Christianity or Judaism or whatever to have spiritual practice, because I think yoga offers these very universal teachings that can serve us in so many ways. Anyway, what do you think? That was a lot, I guess.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:14:18
Thank you for that. I mean, it kind of circles back to what you said, the last piece, what Carol said, like the best classes come out of your own practice, and I would add your own exploration of these topics, right? So, like, what resonates with you through your study and exploration of it.
Jivana Heyman 1:14:37
Yeah, exactly, and I think when reading the texts, something I often do is, I think, what perspective are they coming from? You know, are they coming from the dual perspective or the non-dual? We see a lot of duality in yoga within, like, the deities, like Shiva Shakti. That concept of Shiva Shakti is basically defining dualism, that's the same concept I described before. You know, consciousness and energy, and that when they come together, you have life. That's what the world is, the combination of those two things, which is really useful. Anyway, but yeah, so you're right, just people need to - hopefully practitioners, I should say - can just simply muddle their way through, and eventually kind of land on something that feels good, you know, that feels like it really relaxes you. I feel like the concept we have of God or the divine or of our own spiritual being to me needs to feel like the most intimate and relaxing and sacred thing that we can have. So I wouldn't pretend to say what that should be for anybody, but what an important journey that is. Maybe the most important one, you know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:16:08
Hmmm... I think we should leave it there. That's beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 1:16:12
Okay. Well, thanks. Thanks, Reika for that amazing question, and I would love to talk about it more, but I will stop. So, yeah, thanks for that. Thanks, Carol, for a great interview, and please, you know, if you're interested in Carol's work, we'll link to her website and her books, which are awesome, and the training that we have coming up. And thank you. Thanks, Deanna. Thanks for being here.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:16:35
Thanks, Jivana. Til' next time.
Jivana Heyman 1:16:37
Okay. Bye, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 1:16:47
Before you go, I just want to mention one more thing, and that is our Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program. It's a really special place where we come together as yoga teachers for peer support, encouragement to learn to answer each other's questions and to practice together, it's such an amazing way to find that support that yoga teachers so often need. And I'd love for you to join us. I lead one session a month, and then Rodrigo Souza leads the other, and it's a great way to stay connected and keep improving your teaching. You can find more information on our website at accessibleyoga.org There's also a link in the show notes. Hope to see you there.
