Jivana Heyman 0:17
Hello, welcome back to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, Chumash land. And I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for joining me. I have a great conversation for you today with my good friend, Rodrigo Souza. And if you're involved with Accessible Yoga at all, I'm sure you know Rodrigo. He's so involved at our work, and in fact, he co leads the Accessible Yoga Mentorship Program with me, which is such a great program. He meets with the group once a month, and I meet with them once a month, so we both offer you know, reflections practice and any wisdom we have with the members. And also he's one of the presenters in our upcoming program on Neurological Conditions and Yoga. It's a workshop series, which means we have a group of 10 presenters. Each of them offers a two hour workshop on a different condition. Most of them actually have lived experience of that condition themselves as well. It should be really amazing. So check that out, I'll put information in the show notes for you. And in this conversation, Rodrigo and I focus on this question of balancing self care and service, which is the theme of this season of the podcast, and he has so much insight to share. I'm really excited for you to listen to him and then to join me after with Deanna, and we talk about it more. We talk more about karma yoga, and what is service really? What does it really mean in the yoga tradition? So thanks for being here, and here's my conversation with Rodrigo Souza.
Jivana Heyman 2:03
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Jivana Heyman 3:02
Welcome back, everyone. Hey, Rodrigo, thank you so much for being here.
Rodrigo Souza 3:06
Hello Jivana, thanks for inviting me to be here.
Jivana Heyman 3:10
Yeah, of course. How are you doing?
Rodrigo Souza 3:12
I'm doing well these days. I'm enjoying life. A lot of work, but a lot of, you know, understanding, taking things easy sometimes, which is nice, and trying to find that balance between work and leisure. And, you know, brahmacharya, yeah, going towards that.
Jivana Heyman 3:32
Yeah. No, I love that you mentioned brahmacharya. I do think that is what that word... well, that's part of what that word means, is like making conscious choice, right?
Rodrigo Souza 3:40
Yeah, exactly. And also making conscious choice with your energy, how you spend your days, with your time. And, you know, I was thinking a lot of time that I put so much effort in my work, like, you know, it's kind of we are conditioned to, you know, to work sometimes. I used to even feel guilty when I used to be resting or, you know, doing a hobby or something, and now I'm like, hang on a minute Rodrigo, you deserve this! Be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself, you know! (That's great.) I am going through that now, Jivana, a little bit late in life. I'm 44 years old, but it's like, it's never too late, is it?
Jivana Heyman 4:34
No. And I know you've told me that you usually only have a few hours. I can't remember what you said. Like, how many hours you have a productive time each day, right? Like, it's not like before your accident, right, that you have to be more careful.
Rodrigo Souza 4:47
Yeah, yeah. It's actually four hours. I used to have a pretty intense life, before my accident. I used to work a lot as a bartender. I had a feel theatre background, and I used to DJ. Life used to be really fast. And then after spinal cord injury, if you're listening to this now and don't know me, I am paralyzed from the chest down, do a fall accident, and I had a complete spinal cord injury. And with that, I got diagnosed with PTSD. I have chronic anxiety, and I also have neuropathic pain, which I hoped, when I heard for the first time, I hoped neuropathic pain was supposed to be a [...], but like, you know, it's not. It's a it's a condition that is really hard to treat, and sometimes I sit in my wheelchair for like, more than three or four hours in a period of time, so I experience a lot of spasticity, and then my neuropathic pain increase. So I need to go back to bed and lie down and, you know, do a little yoga nidra, or relax, or like, you know, lay on my belly. And then after a while, and I can go back to my wheelchair and stay, like, for four more hours, and then do the same thing. So my working time that I can sit down in front of the computer and actually work or give classes, generally, is like four or five hours a day. Of course, I work more because sometimes I even work in bed, but it's like, you know, that I can, like, focus and do like, you know, what I gotta do is, like, four hours a day.
Jivana Heyman 6:30
But are you getting better about it, you said, maybe not pushing so hard, it sounds like?
Rodrigo Souza 6:36
Yeah, I am very, I am getting very better at this, you know, because, as we mentioned brahmachara. I didn't had any I was, I was like, everybody else is right. I was comparing myself a lot, and I was thinking that I was not doing enough, and or maybe I go to social media and then read a lot of things. And I thought maybe she would be doing that too, you know, and I'm trying to bring more compassionate consciousness to these things, to these thoughts. And then I say, no, no, no, you're doing well, you know, a little self love here and there always helps.
Jivana Heyman 7:21
Do you have hobbies then, or do you have anything else that you like to do?
Rodrigo Souza 7:27
We live in southeast Brazil, in a beautiful coastal city. It's like, like you. And I like to go around in the end of the day and take a stroll by the beach. I like to play the guitar. I like to read books, you know, and these kind of things, you always leave it outside of your, you know, oh no, no, I need to do this first. I need to do that first. And there is always the pressure of making money. There is always the pressure of being available, being on social media all the time to promote your work. There's so much going on that's like, sometimes it's good to have limits. It's good to have. It's like, you know you're going to do that until this time, and then afterwards you got to do something else, because, like, this something else will help you come back with more energy and more creativity to develop the thing you want to develop. It's like, it's not just do we got to find the time to be, right? And that is the balance. And that is the balance, because which is challenging to find, Jivana, because we are conditioned to compete, and we are conditioned to think that we're not good enough, and we are conditioned to produce and to consume all at the same time, you know. And anytime you decide not to follow, not to do that, it's like there is this force that's pushing you. So it's like you're going against the current, you know, it requires you, like, a mental effort to, you know, to break the neural pathways and say, no, you know, I'm going to take care of me, even though I'm going to have less money, I'm going to take care of me. [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 9:15
But how do you do that? How do you get yourself to that place where you...?
Rodrigo Souza 9:20
I am on the doing, Jivana, I'm not there yet. Yeah, sometimes I caught myself overworking and overdoing, but I do it consciously. I know, yeah, you were doing it so. But it's like, you know, I'm always trying to slow down.
Jivana Heyman 9:44
Yeah, no, I understand. I think, for me, you know, I've gotten much better when my husband was very sick, like two years ago, and it was so intense. And I think watching him and going through it with him made me realize I need to prioritize caring for myself more. So this is why, really, the theme of this podcast, and so many things in my life this year are how to balance self-care and service, which is what we're talking about. Like, how do you balance the time you spend caring for yourself and service you offer in the world. Even though it could be you're doing it because you want to make money or whatever, it's still service. You're putting energy out into the world. So I don't know. I just really shifted a lot when he was sick, it was just like, so present for me, and just that he and I are just both getting older. I'm turning 59 in a few weeks, and I don't know, that it just feels really... I know it's not that old, but I just feel like, wow. Like, not only do I need to care for myself because my body is aging, but also there's limited time and it's not that I need to produce, I need to live. I want to enjoy my life.
Rodrigo Souza 10:54
Ah, yeah, exactly. I know you like gardening and you like, you know, walking by the beach as well. It's like, make time for those things, right? Because, like, those things that will give you clarity of mind, and also will recharge your battery, your energy to go out there and serve with even more purpose, I think.
Jivana Heyman 11:15
Yeah. So like you said, having boundaries has helped me. What I've done is I do it first, like, now first thing I do in the morning is I go to the beach at dawn and I bike to the beach, and I usually run there. So I'm getting a lot of exercise really early, and I spend like, hours, you know. So I make it the first thing. I know that it's good for me. It's good for my mind, to clear my head.
Rodrigo Souza 11:45
Sometimes, especially if you want to serve, sometimes you need to be your best student, Jivana. You need to integrate. You need to practice what you teach, basically. Which I think, I'm not judging anybody, it's like, yoga teachers have a hard time to do because, you know, it's not because of us as people, it's because it's so challenging to make a living as a yoga teacher, because you are not just teaching, you're doing so many other things, you know, like marketing or administrative work. So like, we're always on the run, you know, but sometimes we need to understand that, you know, we need to be our best students, if you want to continue to do the service. Otherwise, you know, somebody will do the service for you.
Jivana Heyman 12:45
That's true too. I mean, part of it is realizing that, you know, while we all have something to contribute, it's also the world isn't depending on us. Like, it's okay sometimes to, like, just sit back, let somebody else do it. But I agree with you. I think yoga teachers are, well for me, I'll just speak for myself that I teach what I need to learn. So it's like, I'm obsessed with yoga because I need it.
Rodrigo Souza 13:10
I love that. I completely agree with you. Maybe I'm verbalizing this out loud because I need to imprint more in my brain that's like, yes, this is what you need, right? I can resonate a lot with what you say. We teach what we need, which is lovely, yeah. And coming back to service and self-care as well, you know, we've been talking about brahmacharya and energy, and how to expend energy and how to take care of yourself. I think talking about, you know, my perspective as well, I know that a lot of yoga teachers has chronic illness or have a disabled body like me, and service for us, and most of the days might be taking care of ourselves, you know, so we can show up, right? And, you know, you need to build that reserve of energy and, how do you say? Of love, even, that you can go out there and serve and teach, but like you only will get to that place if you have for yourself. You cannot pour something that you don't have in abundance. You cannot share scarcity out there. So you need to find that that balance between, okay, do I have enough? Okay, let's hold the container. Do I have enough? No, okay, I need to shut down and hold the container for myself now, you know, and that's not about being selfish. It's just about have a bit of boundaries and know where you are at that particular moment.
Jivana Heyman 14:56
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. I've seen it so much in yoga teachers I've trained who are disabled or older folks, how there's this tension between like, I want to teach, I want to serve, but I don't know if I have the energy to do it or to put myself out there. And then I had a friend who was a yoga teacher for many, well, for many, many years, and she has MS, and she really struggled for when she wasn't feeling good, because it would come and go when she couldn't teach. She felt like she was a failure, like she failed her students and wasn't able to support her community. And it's just really hard for her to be able to stop teaching, especially because I think we all, not all, so many of us, especially yoga teachers, a lot of our self-esteem comes through service, through the the ways we give and support others. And so when you can't do that, you know, how does that feel like, when you don't have the energy to support others and you have to just focus on yourself? And that's what I would tell her, is like her service was to herself, like you said.
Rodrigo Souza 15:59
Exactly. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 16:01
That's right. I mean, self-care is service to yourself, like that's why I think self-care is an interesting word or phrase, because I think there's a selfishness, but self-care is different. It's actually caring for your body, your mind and your heart, and just the way you would care for somebody else. And I think it's a beautiful part of yoga, a practice that is helping you, like you said, build your energy up. Yeah, have more to give. That was beautiful.
Rodrigo Souza 16:01
Yeah. And I also think that, you know, I think I have facilitated so many classes, Jivana, that my students thought the class was for them, but I was actually teaching for myself, as you just mentioned. Because, like, I have so much anxiety sometimes that like, you know, I felt like a failure. Like, oh my God, I cannot show up there, I'm anxious. But like, you know, you need somehow to regulate yourself, to co-regulate your students, to build that container and it takes a lot of self-care for you to get to that point of self-awareness, to find exactly what you need and to serve yourself without being guilty, without being selfish about doing that.
Jivana Heyman 16:36
Totally, I have anxiety also. I mean, it's better now, but it's something I've dealt with in my life a lot. And, yeah, I wonder if you could say more about that, like, how do you handle that?
Rodrigo Souza 17:35
I handled that, Jivana with like, long exhales. I handled that with, like yoga nidra. I handled that in the middle of my classes, asking my students to put one hand in on their belly and another one on their heart set and take a collective breath with me. And then I tell them, let's breathe together and say, okay, they're thinking I'm trying to regulate them, but I actually try to regulate myself. [laughs] Like, okay, let's do that. And it works, you know. And sometimes I'm very vulnerable because I show up to class and then I say, I'm disregulated, I'm anxious. I didn't sleep well. I'm thinking about this so much, like, let's create a place where we all can come back, return to our bodies for a while here and, you know, and come back to that place where there is nothing missing, or there is no judgment, you know. And we try to create that place together with a lot of compassion. And how it goes? Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's challenging, but the intention is always there.
Jivana Heyman 18:51
Was it hard when you started teaching? Did you find the anxiety was...?
Rodrigo Souza 18:55
It was hard, because, first of all, I had my chronic condition, the anxiety, and then I also had, like, the impostor syndrome. We will talk about good things here, right? [laughs] I had the imposter syndrome that, you know, oh, my God, I'm going to teach yoga in a paralyzed body, like, I can move like 35% of my body, let's say. How am I gonna be the teacher, right? So it's like there was this massive voice inside of my head says, like, you're a fake yoga teacher. You're not doing good enough. They will know that Rodrigo, they will know. And you know, it took me a lot of therapy, even a lot of work, is like, no, no, no, you're doing well. Go for it. And now I'm like, you know, I feel anxious, but it's more about, you know, it's not the monster in the room anymore. I live well with it, you know, I name it. I say, oh, you are here again. Okay, let's go. But I don't stop from it.
Jivana Heyman 20:03
Yeah, I mean, I think that's amazing to hear you talk about, because, I mean, imposter syndrome is so challenging, and it feels to me like it's often, in my experience, really sensitive people, the people who I think would make great yoga teachers, you know, who have the worst imposter syndrome, you know, because I used to train yoga teachers through 200-hour trainings all the time, and it was so interesting to watch the people who really struggled with, you know, being in front of a group. And often, like I said, they were the most sensitive ones, which is such a great quality in a yoga teacher.
Rodrigo Souza 20:37
Yeah, but also, I see a lot of yoga teachers who live in a non-normative body, which, I don't like this word much, but I gotta use...
Jivana Heyman 20:48
Non-disabled, you mean, non-disabled?
Rodrigo Souza 20:50
Yeah, yeah. No, a non-normative body. It's like, a body that is out of the norm.
Jivana Heyman 20:56
Oh non-normative, oh yeah.
Rodrigo Souza 20:57
It's like, you know, a body that is not thin, a body that is not, like, let's say able, and it's like, it's just on us. It's just like people think that, you know we're not gonna make good yoga teachers, because, you know we're not Instagram like, stronger, like, you know we're not... how do you say? We're not what we see in the pictures, basically.
Jivana Heyman 21:22
But it's like a vicious cycle, because I think then, you know, we end up only seeing the people who have the physical ability to do some of those poses, and they put themselves out there, and then the others don't, and they don't see it, and then I put themselves out there, and then there's less of it. I know that's something you've talked about a lot is like, you know, where are the disabled yogis, yoga practitioners, where are they on social media? And it's true. I think it's this terrible cycle that we're in. I think it's so sad, because I feel like it takes brave people like you to put yourself out there. And I know it's a lot of work and tiring, and it demands a lot of your inner work to have the bravery and wherewithal to put yourself to take videos. I know how hard it is to take videos of myself. It's hard to see yourself, you know. And I know, I imagine you have a similar feeling, and yet you do it, and I think it's remarkable. So at least, I think you're changing that narrative, but I think it's a big one. It's like a big mountain of confusion of what is yoga, you know, and that it's only this physical practice, and that it should look a particular way. And, I mean, I've been teaching 30 years, and I've seen it shift. It's a little better, but only a little bit. (Yeah.) It's like a minor improvement.
Rodrigo Souza 22:59
I think we're doing a lot of work to diversify, especially talking about representativity, but it's like, it's still so much work to do, isn't it? You know, we are just scraping, but yeah, at least we're doing something. You know, we are building the world we want to see out there in the future. We're doing well, Jivana, we're
Jivana Heyman 23:29
We're doing well. Well, you're doing great. I appreciate what you're doing. And I mean, I do think it is better, but, you know, sometimes what it feels to me... I don't know if you see this, but I feel like, in yoga, there's all these different communities, that there's no yoga community, the per se, like not one. It's like all these individual communities, which is fine, but I feel like within the world that I think you and I both are part of, it's so normal. It's like diversity is just the essence of what we're doing, and we see all different bodies and all different practices, and there's a lot of acceptance. But then sometimes, when I get a glimpse into some other yoga community, I'm shocked.
Rodrigo Souza 24:13
Exactly. And, you know, so one thing that I get sometimes is that it takes so much effort to put ourselves out there, as you mentioned, and to stand for something, and then, you know, you see another yoga teacher or another yogi, instead of like, agreeing with you or creating a healthy discussion, just like, stay against you, or criticize the work you're doing. Or, you know, bring like, you know, old texts to validate something that has changed so long ago and create a discussion out of the blue. I thought like we would be more united, right? But we are not. It's like the yoga, I don't like this word as well, but I gotta use it, the yoga industry. I think everything that has the word industry on it is a bit, you know... But anyway, the yoga industry is very segregated, right?
Jivana Heyman 25:18
Yes, segregated. But I also hear what you're saying around, you would expect that yoga practitioners and yoga teachers would be more ethical, and I think that's what I get stuck on, and why over the years, my teaching has shifted a bit to focus more on that, like pretty much any program I teach, I try to reflect on the yamas, in particular, and really look at if you're calling yourself a yoga practitioner or a yoga teacher, that means you're practicing the yamas. And I would say that's true for all of us, not that we're perfect, like I make mistakes all the time, but it's just that you're making an effort. What that is for me, like in this context, means that if I see someone I disagree with posting something, I don't have to go into their comments and criticize, right? I just do my own thing.
Rodrigo Souza 26:06
Yes, yes, right? It's like, okay, you don't even need to like the pose and to comment anything. Just let it go.
Jivana Heyman 26:12
Let it go, right. I mean, there's a lot of bad stuff in the world. I don't need to put my energy on it. I think that's yoga practice and whether it's yoga or something else. Although there's time to speak up, when someone does something that's truly harmful, it's good and important to speak up. But I also think we have to protect our energy and also make sure we're practicing ethics in the way we treat people. Are we being kind? Are we practicing ahimsa? So I don't know, it's frustrating. But do you know what it is? I think many people have high expectations of yoga teachers, and yet we're just regular people, and I think that's where there's confusion. It's like, just because we say we're teaching yoga doesn't mean we're very good at it.
Rodrigo Souza 27:02
Oh, I second that. I second that so much! Yeah, yeah, we're still in the making, so much, and we have just like, access to the tools, doesn't mean that we are good using them, right? Doesn't mean that we're good at integrating them. Like, we pass them through, right? There is a lot of integration going on at the same time, you know.
Jivana Heyman 27:34
Yeah, and it's so tricky, because I can just say for myself, like, I think what happens sometimes is that my mind is so tricky and can, like, figure out a way around. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think I've integrated something, but really, I've just kind of found a way to avoid it. My ego is always finding a way to make it about me. So, I don't know. I think it's a work in in progress, and I think, you know, for me, a lot of times when I see other teachers doing stuff that I don't really appreciate or agree with, I just use it as a time to recognize that I also make mistakes. Yeah, so I'm not expecting perfection from anyone else, and I hope they don't expect it from me. It's like, we're all still growing, like you said. And like I said, before I teach what I need to learn. So, I'm still focused on this, because I need it so bad, and I don't expect anyone else to be any further along than I am, you know?
Rodrigo Souza 28:43
Yeah, and we are all, Jivana, you just asked me at the beginning of this episode, where I am right now, and we are all in different stages in our lives and different stages of our personal development. So, like, the tools that I might use now is, like, different tools for you. And that's okay, you know. And you know, I might get there. You might get there. There, I mean, no one will be 100% self realized about anything. But like, get to that point where the things that you'll be working on there will there won't be need anymore. You're going to find the balance between work and leisure, okay, Rodrigo, but then it's going to be something else. It's not that, like, okay, now you're gonna get a fully grown adult diploma for you. No, no, you're good. No, it's always there. It's always there.
Jivana Heyman 29:38
Yeah, I know there isn't really a finish line. I mean, even if, like, I guess at some point it's over when we die. But in yoga, there's reincarnation. So you always have another life. You just have to do it again. You know, continuing to grow and evolve. And I would say, I think what makes me really sad is, like, sometimes, I depend so much on the teachings, personally, and I think they would help so many other people. So my main frustration is, like, these are incredible teachings here. Sometimes people don't even know they're there, or, I mean, let alone not practice them, but also just don't even know that we have these tools. You know, reflect on the ego to look at our attachments, to think about, you know, the obstacles that are in our way, to be in touch with ourselves, to recognize that yoga is a spiritual practice, that's about compassion and connection.
Rodrigo Souza 30:38
Yes, it is. And I love this session that you had on our Mentorship Program last time, where you talk about detachment, and it's like, you know, things like that, that you realize how much you can free yourself from the condition that you've been through. You know, if you study that, like how to be kind to yourself, how to be compassionate, how to shift your perspective a little bit here and there. You can raise your quality of life a lot. And unfortunately, this is not very available for a lot of people, right? I agree with you.
Jivana Heyman 31:18
But these are the teachings, like, that non-attachment is, you know, right there. It's in the Sutras and the Gita. I mean, in every yoga teaching, there is that kernel of non-attachment, of letting go of the external to focus on the internal. That's like the essence of, really, all of yoga, I'd say, the all of yoga that I understand. And it's hard, I mean, it's hard to do, you know. It's against our nature and the ego, but it's so beneficial, even, like you said, to just have a glimpse of that. And so I'm glad, I hope that was useful. It was fun to do with that group.
Rodrigo Souza 31:59
Yeah. And also I think, like, this is a measure about how much yoga you need in your life, talking about service as well. Because I think, like, as you become detached from the external validation, as we always are, you know, and conditioned by this capitalist society that we need to produce and consume all the time and compete, right? So we are always living in that dissociation from our true selves. So, that's why we live so individually. And I guess, like, as much yoga as you practice, as much detached of everything you are, and as more attached to everything else you are, especially when talking to the relationship you build with other people. There is less separation there, Jivana, you know the other... I love when Thich Nhat Hanh said that like, the others, it's like, somebody asked him, like, how do you treat others? And then he's like, there is no others.
Jivana Heyman 33:11
Oh this is Ramana Maharshi. Yes, yeah. There is no other.
Rodrigo Souza 33:14
And it's like, if you are deep and truly in the practice, that's, of course, we're not going to get there, but it's like, if we get a glimpse of loving kindness to see the other has a part of yourself, and not just the suffering, just have a little bit of empathy, like, treat other folks with dignity, like, try to break the barriers that separate us and make this place a more just and like, equal, let's say, place to live. I think that is where we all we are going to aim to and, you know, get to a place where you're going to to offer service to yourself and to others, but in a way that everyone will get out of love.
Jivana Heyman 34:13
Right, that is service. You know, service is that acting in the way you described, like, acting out of love and connection, rather than just about your selfish motivation. And it's so hard because capitalism and Western culture is training us to be so externally oriented and focus on all those things that are actually causing us suffering. And social media, I feel like, it's even more, like, where we're just focused on others, you know, all the time, in a often competitive way. But it seems like there's always that potential that we have, and I think, unfortunately, it kind of lands back with us individually, to work on ourselves enough to be able to shift the way we perceive the world. You could see social media as a form of connection. You can see your work in the world as service, and, you know, compassion and caring, rather than just productivity. I just feel like it's shifting your internal compass and that changes everything else. Like, everything else changes. The way you act and the way you perceive the world itself can change based on your perspective.
Rodrigo Souza 35:23
Yeah, yeah. I agree with you and that, you can be better of service. Which I repeat, sometimes the service will not look like service, because it will be more like self-care, which is actually service as well.
Jivana Heyman 35:39
Yeah. That's beautiful.
Rodrigo Souza 35:41
It is, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 35:43
Now we have to do it though.
Rodrigo Souza 35:45
Yeah, yeah. We all need more of it, right? We all need to go back to that place and, you know, be of service, but be of service to ourselves as well.
Jivana Heyman 35:58
Yeah, it reminds me of something interesting. Last week, Zabie Yamasaki was teaching for the Accessible Yoga Training Online. Do you know Zabie? She does a great job teaching. She teaches about trauma-informed yoga, and she had us do a practice that just kind of blew my mind, which was to take your hand and rest your cheek against your hand just like that, and to cradle your face and your hand like that, and like, rest there for a while, and then you do the other side. But it was like, such this incredible like, I don't even know it was like, beyond giving yourself a hug. Do you know what I mean? I was just like, just care for yourself in that way, like you're this precious thing. It was just very touching to me, and it reminded me about what you're talking about. It's like, yeah, I don't know. Does that make sense?
Rodrigo Souza 36:53
Of course it does. Imagine if we are living in a world where everyone loved themselves. And I'm not talking about the selfish way. That's like, I love myself because I have a flat belly. No, bullshit. You love yourself because you are worthy of love, you know, because you are love itself, basically. So, like, imagine a world where everyone had time to nurture that in ourselves. We wouldn't be where we are now,
Jivana Heyman 37:31
Yeah, we won't be where we are now. I agree. I think that's why it's confusing, I think, sometimes to feel like people are service oriented don't spend the time caring for themselves because they don't think that's really helpful, maybe for their self esteem, but also they don't know if it will help the world. But it's true, the way we care for ourselves does impact the world, like you said.
Rodrigo Souza 37:52
It does.
Jivana Heyman 37:53
I mean, for one really obvious reason, if we can care for ourselves, it also reduces the load on other people, right? We can really care for ourselves and find a way to pace ourselves, or at least not cause harm in the world, right? Like, if you work on your own inner challenges and inner demons, then maybe you don't take it out on others, right? Even unknowingly abuse others, or, you know, have this ego striving to be loved, or need achieve to something in the world, like sometimes maybe like letting that go a little bit can...
Rodrigo Souza 38:29
I love a phrase that Ram Dass said once. He said something like, "The best thing I can do for yourself is to work on myself."
Jivana Heyman 38:40
Right. Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. That is beautiful. And I think it's hard to digest, sometimes, but it's true. I think the best thing I can do for you is work on myself, but not in, like, a selfish way. It's just by caring for myself truly. What do I need so that I can be at peace with myself and my life, so that when I go and serve an act in the world, I don't cause more harm?
Rodrigo Souza 39:11
Harm. And also, because you are in that place of calmness. You can be anxious as well. Anxiety is a part of us, but like you are in that place where you feel like you are in tune with yourself, like, you're not degrading, you're not over consuming, you know, comparing, you know, judging like if you are in that place where you feel happy in the body you live, that you feel that there is nothing missing -- you will change the world by your presence. You don't even need to teach. You don't even need to talk. Your presence, your example would be like a change already happening. It is even more powerful than, you know, teach by the way you present, by the way you truly are, then, just like, decorate a few lines and a few asana names and show up to a class and just repeat all over again. Like, you know it needs to happen. This integration needs to happen. This self-care needs to be there for you to serve.
Jivana Heyman 40:32
Well, that's what's great about teaching yoga, for me it has helped me push myself to do that more, because I want to serve. I recognize that to be in the role of teacher, I have to work on myself so that, like, you know, even just on the level of my nervous system, like you're saying, like, I have to regulate mine, or get to a place of relative calm, and then that students can kind of vibe off of that. That's my job. Like, when I go to teach a class that, like, I we can co-regulate together. It's the job of the teacher often to hold that for that students, but it's a great practice for us too.
Rodrigo Souza 41:09
It is. It is a beautiful practice, Jivana. It's a beautiful practice. I was teaching in a class in Sao Paulo. I was giving a training there. And everyone came from different places, right, and everyone had the fiercey eyes. You know when you have the fiercey eyes, like everyone was like, in their minds all the time. And as I was teaching for like six hours in that day, it was in the end of the class and I was that too. And then I was like, okay, our practice is going to be like, you know, just to be quiet. Let's invite the silence in and let's do very little movement, and, you know, let's stay here seated. And then we go to the mat, and then we do a little shavasana here. We did very little movement, and I could feel like the restlessness coming up. Everyone was like, where is the movement? When is it gonna come? But it's like, in the end, it was, like, so beautiful, because we all relaxed into this state of calm. And it needed, like, basically 15 minutes in silence, 15 minutes with nothing, 15 minutes just observing what it was, 15 minutes of observing what was going and what was coming, and not getting attached to it, not getting like, you know, identified with it. And just observing the way the body was breathing was enough to bring ourselves back and and to that state of like, oh, okay, like, you know, I have my energy to keep going, or I have energy to think about something else. I have energy to deal with what was very overwhelming for me before, but now I can deal with it. People don't realize how simple it can look sometimes, you know, and how important it is to integrate that in our lives. I think sometimes, because it's too simple, even too simple, that people just like, ah, that doesn't work. But it does, right? It does so much. I could I could see it in my body, could see it in my student's body, how short and sweet it was and how precious we all like, had it at that time.
Jivana Heyman 43:29
It's incredible. I mean, yoga is amazing. I just want to say. It works if we practice, you know, if we really make the effort, it's incredible. All right. Well, thanks, Rod. Is there anything else you want to share?
Rodrigo Souza 43:43
No, I don't want to share anything else. I just would like to thank you for the invitation. And it was lovely chatting with you again. I love talking with you. It's always it's always fun. There's always something coming up. Thanks for inviting me to be here again.
Jivana Heyman 44:05
Thank you. Thanks for sharing and for everything you do. All right. Take care.
Rodrigo Souza 44:09
All right. Take care.
Jivana Heyman 44:20
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Jivana Heyman 45:12
Hello again. Hi, Deanna,
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:14
Hello, Jivana, how are you?
Jivana Heyman 45:17
I'm good. It's great to be back with you. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:23
It's good to be here. We are recording this, it's like mid April, and here in Berlin, it's spring, and it feels incredible to just be outside and feel the sun.
Jivana Heyman 45:35
Yeah. It's spring here too, in Santa Barbara, and my garden is so pretty right now. The roses are blooming, and it's funny, I'm about to leave for Australia where it's fall, so I will be in autumn in a week, which is kind of weird to think about, but I'm excited to see those plants, though, in Australia.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:58
That's incredible. I mean, fall is my favorite season, and so to me, having like, a little like, hit of fall before going into spring and summer is would be like a dream twice in a year.
Jivana Heyman 46:09
Yeah, it's pretty funny. It's just the whole Northern / Southern Hemisphere thing is weird. And just the time difference. It's such a massive time difference, I'm kind of concerned about my sleep. But, you know, it's like at least 17 hours ahead of where I am. So I'll lose a day flying there and then coming back, I gain it back. When I fly back, I actually land, I think, before I left.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:35
If people don't know already, we have quite an international team. And so our colleague, Robyn, is in Australia, and so our team meetings, you can imagine finding the time, it's interesting. We're all on different stages of the day, in the evening.
Jivana Heyman 46:54
Well, you're not always in Berlin, you're usually in New York, but this year, you're there. And so it does make our scheduling really funny and challenging, because really, and I think Berlin and Australia, or like, Europe and Australia, are pretty much opposite ends of the time spectrum.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:11
Robyn is waking up. I'm going to bed, and now Robyn knows like, I can't answer anything with numbers, like, beyond minute 30 of our meetings.
Jivana Heyman 47:21
Yeah, it's pretty funny. Well, I get to have that early morning experience. It always kind of works out for me. I'm lucky. California ends up kind of on the early morning side or midday side of that whole spectrum when everyone else is awake in the world. It's also why we offer our online programs in my morning, which is perfect, because that's my favorite time to be alert and teaching, is in the morning. And it just happens that that's the best time for people to join from, you know, Europe and the UK, and sometimes from Asia and Australia, depending on the time of year. But yeah, it's so bizarre, isn't it, this world that we live in and the whole, I don't know, just this sense that there's such a difference between us and also this connection, you know what I mean? Like, both things are true. Like, our days are so different, but they're also the same.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:17
Yeah, absolutely. I mean the rituals we have every day, right? Just like daily life and habits, and we all want the same things in life, like when it comes down to it, and that's at the heart of the yoga teachings, right?
Jivana Heyman 48:31
Yeah, that's interesting, and I'd love to talk about that today. But before we get into yoga teachings, which is what I always want to share in this portion of the conversation, I just want to thank Rod for such a fun conversation, for being my first guest, and it was lovely to talk to him as always. He's so funny, because what I love about him is he's so sweet, but also very honest and straightforward, and that's just such a nice combination, you know, to have that humility and and also the lived experience of being a disabled person, disabled yoga teacher. There's so much depth there, and he has so much wisdom to share in such a humble way. Yeah, it was nice.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:20
Rod is such a big part of Accessible Yoga, and actually it was perfect for him to be your first guest, just because you're going to be talking so much about self-care and service. I just felt like Rod brought up so many threads of that conversation that are pertinent to yoga teachers, and everybody, really, probably all of our listening listeners, to one degree in this world. Like, how are we taking care of ourselves so that we can show up in the world? How do we enact our boundaries with care and kindness, and then when it comes down to it, like, I don't bury the lead, like the gem to me was like, imagine living in a world where everyone liked themselves, right? And like, self-care, I think, is a big piece of that, and Rod already gave the caveat that's not in like, an egocentric way. But, I think about that a lot. Like, what if people had self-love? Like, how would decisions change? How would your interactions on the street change?
Jivana Heyman 49:51
Yeah, it's a beautiful idea. It's interesting, because I feel like, on the one hand, it's hard to do it, it's hard to love yourself, because the world and our situations often make our lives so difficult. Like, there's a lot of suffering, and often we're not to blame, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Like, often, we are literally the victim of some external circumstance or oppression, you know, war or, you know, marginalization that makes our lives really, really hard, and so I mean sometimes loving yourself, I think, could feel impossible if you're in a really, really rough situation in life. So I just want to say that, you know, but at the same time it's available for everyone. So even in the midst of those situations, it's possible. So there's that, you know, dichotomy, again, that kind of or what's the word, you know, dialectic is like my favorite word, which is to seemingly opposed truths, which is, yes, we have the capacity to love ourselves, and at the same time it can be really hard and very hard, to feel love towards yourself or anyone, if you're struggling in some way.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:26
Yeah, absolutely. I think those are very important parts and we're served, you know, hundreds, if not 1000s, messages a day, right, subtly, that we're not enough, right? Capitalism is part of that, too. What don't we have? What holes can we manufacture that can be like, bought or serviced by something? So, yeah, I agree with that 100%.
Jivana Heyman 52:10
We just had our graduation from the Accessible Yoga Training Online, and I was trying to share with them that same message, like that they're needed in the world. Like these are yoga teachers who have taken the time to really invest in learning about accessibility and equity and diversity and Inclusion and yoga spaces and and yet, I have a sense that I don't know what it is about our community, but there's also some real imposter syndrome there, and real sense, like, that they're not good enough. And part of it is just, like, a physical thing maybe, because, like, our community, we tend to be... we have disabled folks or older folks or people with larger bodies, or have other marginalized identities. So yeah, society is telling us maybe we're not the perfect yoga teacher because of how we look or act. So maybe that's why. But to me, it's upsetting, because I see these incredible people, incredible teachers, who are really investing in this, you know, in this idea, in this concept of equity and sharing yoga, who just seem, many of them, I don't mean to generalize, but many don't seem to have enough faith in themselves to overcome that imposter syndrome and overcome what the world is telling them to put themselves out there in a way, you know. And so we end up, it's like a It's kind of like a vicious cycle that we end up with less representation, so there's less teachers who look different because of that. You know, I think Rod touched on that a little bit too, like, it can be really hard to figure yourself out in the world, and yet it's needed. So it's hard to find that balance.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:52
Yeah, it really is. It's definitely something I struggle with. And I think, you know, I sometimes believe that, you know, self-love can be an act of resistance in a way, like, I think of all the time spent worrying that I'm not enough, or that I'm not able to do something because, you know, I don't have the skills, or this or that, or I don't look certain way. And you know that I think about all the other people benefiting from those kinds of thoughts, the various forces in the world, right, at scale. So many people feeling this way, that to me, sometimes it's like, well, I'm not going to have this conversation with myself, because it's not to my benefit. Someone else manufactured this.
Jivana Heyman 54:34
Yeah, I love that. I remember Amber Karnes is talking about that years ago regarding fatphobia. I think it was Amber, maybe somebody else. But just talking about who benefits from that thought. It's a really good question to ask yourself. Who benefits from that insecurity that we have, or that feeling that we're not good enough? It's worth reflecting, because I think you're right. I think there are, unfortunately, nefarious forces, meaning, like, even just simply, like, marketing. I hate to use that, but like, do you know what I mean? Like, aspirational marketing, that we're told we have to look or act a certain way to be okay. Like, what we're shown in the media, and what we're being told is, you know, the goal of life to kind of be whatever it is that we're trying to be. So that's one type of way that capitalism impacts our self worth is because it's telling us we're not enough, and we need more things. Physically, we need more things. We need to look better. We need to be young and thin, and have certain position and power and kind certain kind of relationship. Yeah, it's exhausting,
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:47
You know, and also in a more soulful way, too. I sometimes, when I'm struggling with this, I think about my dad. He had a heart attack at age 44 while playing soccer, and he transitioned. And so, you know, I just think about his age. I'm approaching that age this year, and I just, you know, like, I'm sure that if he had known that his time was cut short, I wonder if his anxieties would have been a little different, or what he chose to focus on. You know, we're all recipients of the same messages out there, and you know, there's similar currents of how we think of ourselves because of those nefarious forces. But sometimes I just think of my dad or my grandmother, who struggled a lot in life. And I think, you know, like they would have wanted something more for me than to focus my attention on this. So sometimes that snaps me out of it a little bit.
Jivana Heyman 56:44
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I mean, that's so sad that he was so young, and we all have limited time. I mean, I think, I think we forget that, and it's easy to get caught up in the details of our lives and forget that it's limited this time here, at least in this birth. That's a great example, to me, how the bigger picture stuff, like spiritual teachings can help us overcome challenges in a way you're imagining, like, what they want for you and how their love for you makes you feel kind of different about those self-doubt or whatever you're having. I think that's what you're saying. And like that is such a beautiful way to think of it. It's like, maybe we could do that for ourselves too, that you know our love for ourselves and our improving our self-talk and that inner relationship could potentially shift the way we think of our lives and the way that we show up in the world, that we might feel braver or more willing to put ourselves out there if we didn't let some of the negative self-talk keep going, you know, and take over. Which it does for me too, like, I have a history of being very shy and having anxiety, and so I've really struggled with that my whole life. And I mean, definitely it gets easier as I get older, but also through practice.
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:12
And, you know, you doing the work, and doing what you can to overcome the self-doubt, that becomes an inspiration for another yoga teacher who maybe thought, oh, I can do this too, right? This person had doubts, or this person is experiencing this, and they went ahead and went for it, like, maybe I can teach a class this weekend. Maybe I should try that. Maybe I should take that new class at the community center?
Jivana Heyman 58:42
Yeah. I mean, I still think people need to be... Like, I don't think it's so simple that we can just, like, figure it out and change. Because I think sometimes there's a reason for that protection, like, boundaries are good and we should protect ourselves. So I think, you know, I don't mean to say, like, just get over it. It's like, actually listen to the voices, but also question them. You know, we need to listen to those internal voices. It might be our intuition telling us, you know, to take it slow and spend more time preparing. Because I think about newer yoga teachers and how hard it is to, like, put yourself out there, but like, at some point you kind of have to make the leap. And it's like, how do you do it in a way that feels safe and not really putting yourself in a dangerous situation where you might get burned out quickly or just overwhelmed? So I think there's a delicate balance there, but I do think it's about that slow progression of, yeah, maybe questioning some of the assumptions we have about ourselves. And to me, that's what meditation is, and also yoga. I mean, I think yoga, in general, offers so many tools that help us do that, like, how do we begin to listen to the voices within our head and to question them in a way that's not self-defeating, but that's actually helpful for growth?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:10
Yeah, like the practice of discernment, I suppose. Having anxiety myself, it's an ongoing process of understanding what is an anxiety coming from my head and what is an intuition coming from my gut, right? So that's like, the ongoing process. And, like you said, it's never fixed. It's not like, oh, now I know. Now this is instantaneous, and I don't need to worry about this anymore. It's like, you kind of get used to returning to the practice of discerning, right? Like, over and over again.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:41
Yeah. And also, I think that's a great example. And also, I find the teachings themselves offer that for me, like a touchstone, something that where, sometimes I cannot discern which, what that voice is in my head, and whether it's truly my heart speaking or just my ego, and I need to just reflect on the teachings. I just wanted to go back to something, to kind of bring in to the picture, something that's relatively neutral and that's been around a long time, like for me, the time tested aspect of yoga wisdom is really inspiring to me. The fact that most of these teachings have been around for 1000s and 1000s of years, I really appreciate that. So it's like perspective, right? That's svadhyaya, you know, the Sanskrit word svadhyaya, of self-reflection, I think, is literally that taking the teachings and having perspective, or be able to reflect on yourself and your own thinking and actions based on those teachings, because sometimes svadhyaya is defined as self-study or study of the Vedas. But I think it's both. It's, I think it's study of these teachings in terms of how that we're thinking and acting ourselves. How do they apply? How do they apply? Yeah, well, I was thinking about karma yoga because Rod and I talked about self-care and service. And I was just thinking, you know, that's the teaching that I go to a lot, is the focus in the yoga teachings on service, or karma yoga, sometimes called seva. Because I think it's not well understood in the West. It's almost illogical to a Western mind the way that it's presented, because it's literally the opposite of Capitalism. So it's just like, it doesn't make sense.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:33
It is confusing. Because you think of seva, it's like, well, it's not volunteering. And then I remember back in my Yoga Journal days, I was going to studio, and I was taking it, was filming a Facebook Live, and the teacher there...
Jivana Heyman 1:02:48
People may not know you worked at Yoga Journal, so I think it's opening up a lot of interest, I think, from our listeners, to hear about your Yoga Journal days.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:55
It just came out! [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 1:02:59
That's how we met, by the way, right, because you were working at Yoga Journal, and I think you helped do a course that I was teaching.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:07
Yeah, we worked on Chair Yoga together.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:09
Yeah, we worked on Chair Yoga together for Yoga Journal. That was so fun. Anyway, sorry.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:13
But, I met you at the Accessible Yoga Conference in New York, before then. (Oh, right.) That was like, pre-pandemic, I was like, trying to make a pitch, and you were signing my book. I was like, is this landing? I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:30
I don't remember what you were asking.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:32
I'm glad it ended up working out.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:34
Yeah, I mean, working with you at Yoga Journal definitely made me very excited. I loved meeting you. I love working with you. And so obviously, then I asked you to work for me. So here we are!
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:45
Here we are! But I was filming a Facebook Live, and I remember the teacher saying, like, oh, this is your like, you know, this is seva. And I'm like, well, you know, I'm getting paid for my job for this though. I'm like, it's not seva. He's like, of course, it's seva. Now, I remember leaving just like, with a contemplation, like, for a week, because I was like, oh, what is seva? Also is seva, like, an attitude in what you do every day for other people? So maybe you can talk about it a little bit, Jivana?
Jivana Heyman 1:04:11
Yeah. I mean, it's incredibly confusing. I'm just gonna say again, because, like, I said, it's the opposite of the way that we're literally trained in the West. And not just in the West. I mean, capitalism is all over the world, but I mean it's just, you know, we learn... I think it's human nature also, and influenced by capitalism. There's this idea that we need to get something, that that's the main motivation, that we need something from outside of us to be happy, like our attachment. You could look within the teachings, you could find within the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali speaks to it, I think in his focus on non-attachment, I think that's his way of framing this conversation. But you could see it much more clearly in the Gita, where Krishna's main teaching, I would say, in the Gita is on service and karma yoga. I think that's really the underlying theme of the Gita, is to serve without attachment. And again, that's the key, without attachment. I usually teach mostly about non-attachment, because I think that's the kind of underlying concept that is lost on most of us, and that I have to constantly remind myself about, because I'm also raised with that capitalist, limited mindset. But non-attachment is the concept that we are full and complete, and that what we are seeking is within us, that we are pure happiness, bliss, joy. That's our true nature. Non-attachment is saying, there's a misunderstanding that we need something from outside to be happy, rather than the realization that that's who we are, that is what we are already. And so it's just this kind of misunderstanding about how the world works. If we get that piece, which is hard to understand. I mean, not maybe understand, but it's hard to live. And I can say, from experience, it's hard to live. Then karma yoga makes more sense, because karma yoga is basically just putting that into practice. So it's like saying living in a way where I'm not looking for a particular result or reward in the world because I'm already fine. It's not because I'm so disciplined that I don't need anything from out there, it's more just like I am full and complete. I have, you know, santosha. I am full and content, and so because of that. I mean, this is the concept. I'm not saying I feel this way, but that's the concept. So because of that fullness, I'm not looking externally. I'm internally focused rather than externally focused. In fact, that's the other way to frame this, is internal focus rather than external focus. And I think that in the Gita, it's a little complicated because, you know, it's really helpful that it's a story that we have two characters who are speaking, you know, you have Krishna teaching Arjuna, who's the warrior, that he should fight in the war, which is, you know, that's part of the problem with the Gita, is that it's about fighting a war and killing people. His service is to kill his extended family. I mean, that's problematic, right? Plus, there's also issues of caste and casteism in the Gita, so there's problems there, but the Gita still is so incredibly beautiful and powerful. I thought I could read a section. Would that be okay?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:04:11
Yeah, I'd love that.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:19
I was just looking for it before. He speaks on this in lots of places. The two main places I find is in Chapter Two, which is like an overview, like, if you're going to study the Gita, it's great to you could just read Chapter Two over and over again. And then in Chapter Three, which is the chapter on karma yoga. But in Chapter Two, he says, "You have the right to work, but never to the fruit of work. You should never engage in action for the sake of reward, nor should you long for inaction. Perform work in this world, Arjuna, as a man established within himself without selfish attachments." So there's the attachment piece. "And alike in success and defeat, for yoga is perfect evenness of mind." And that's given as one of the main definitions of yoga from the Gita, that yoga is perfect evenness of mind, meaning you're undisturbed by whether you get what you want or not. You're not attached. And he goes on and on about it. But then I thought I could reach you another nice section in Chapter Three, which is the chapter on karma yoga and selfless service. This is 25, and by the way, this is the translation by Eknath Easwaran, which is really amazing. Krishna says, "The ignorant work for their own profit, Arjuna, the wise work for the welfare of the world without thought for themselves." I love that line. Maybe I'll just leave it there. That one. "The ignorant work for their own profit, the wise work for the welfare of the world without thought for themselves." It's a lot of W's.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:09:27
That's a beautiful reminder. I also have to ask, for the person, I mean, I know that in our community, there are a lot of people who extend themselves so much and they're always giving that they're really, not really replenishing the reservoirs, I would say. So for folks like that, I'm assuming a lot of our listeners are probably in that category too. Like, there has to be a balance, right, of like, restoring yourself in order to feel like there's enough so that you can give without attachments, like there's that cycle, right?
Jivana Heyman 1:10:01
Yeah. And that's why, I mean, that's why I'm so interested in this theme of self-care and service, because it's so complicated, like, there isn't an answer to that. It's different for each of us at every day and every moment. Like, how much do you need to keep for yourself? How much are you giving away? What is the balance? And if you think about it and I just want to agree with you that our community is so service oriented and selfless, like, I've seen just such incredible people in the Accessible Yoga community and in the world in general, there's so many people that are natural karma yogis. People who are caregivers, who care for children or for their parents and or for other people's children and parents like teachers and nurses and nursing assistants. I'd say it's just the thing that a lot of people just do naturally. They naturally have this ability to serve, and it's incredible to me. But I think there are also people who we serve for maybe not the best reasons, like sometimes I think we don't know how to care for ourselves, and it becomes the way that we find our self worth is only through service. And I think that's still not exactly karma yoga, because karma yoga starts with this idea that we are full already, that we have what we need. So if your service, if your actions are based on wanting something from outside, like if you're still needing to please, that's not karma yoga, right? People pleasing is not karma yoga. It's like with addiction. You know, if you are in Al-Anon or you're trying to support someone with addiction, you learn about codependency and that you need to have strong boundaries, and you can love them, but you can't base your happiness or love for them on their behavior, on what they do. You have to really take care of yourself. That's a very hard thing for a lot of us to do, to let go of needing that external thing. You know, people pleasing. Like, I know as a parent might have adult children, it's like it's one thing to love my children, it's another thing to be attached to them and to want them to do a particular thing. It's different for me to love and support their vision of their lives, versus trying to direct their lives in a particular way. So for me, karma yoga with my kids is to love and support them no matter what, and to not be controlling and to let them be themselves, even if I don't always agree with what they do and that I'm just there loving them as much as I can.
Jivana Heyman 1:12:46
Because, by the way, it's not about inaction. You know, that part of that section that I read in the Gita mentioned this not inaction. So it's not about not doing, it's not about hiding away from the world. You know this idea of a yoga practitioner meditating in a cave by themselves, like, that's not the goal. The goal, especially for householders, is to apply karma yoga in your life through loving action. And love is the same as non-attachment, that loving kindness, that kind of generosity of spirit is what we're talking about. You know, so if your actions, if your service, comes from that place, from generosity of spirit, that is service. But if it's coming out of wanting a certain result, wanting someone to thank me or to love me back, or to behave a certain way. That's just normal human behavior, maybe manipulation, which is, you know, the way we learn to exist in the world. But no, it's a very challenging thing to do. In fact, if you look at the Sutras, okay, I'll stop talking about this soon, I promise. But in the Sutras, if you look at the way that Patanjali is talking about non-attachment. It's a similar concept to this idea that it's not inaction. Because what Patanjali says, he frames his definition of non-attachment in Book One, Sutra 15. He says, non-attachment is like self-mastery. That's the first thing. He says, "It's self-mastery in one who is free from craving." That's, that's an important little paraphrase. Okay, it's self-mastery in one who is free from craving, it's not caring. It's not acting. It's actually acting in such a way that you're not focused on the result, right? And then Patanjali basically says that, as he describes, yoga is about working with your mind. Very much what the Gita said. Of course, he got that from the Gita, I'm gonna say, because the Gita was first. This idea that yoga is perfect, evenness of mind, that's Patanjali's starting point, right? He's saying yoga is about quieting the mind. And in that very first section in Book One, the very beginning of the Sutras, he says the way to do that is with two things, we need practice, which is learning to focus your mind, and non-attachment, which is this whole idea of loving kindness, of acting with this generosity of spirit, acting from a sense of fullness rather than lack. That's it. With those two things, we find freedom. Anyway, what do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:15:25
Yeah, I think that's beautiful. And again, like, generosity of spirit is such a phrase to return to, right? Like, you can ask yourself all the time, like, am I doing this with a generosity of spirit? And that's a great question. Contemplation, right?
Jivana Heyman 1:15:40
Yeah, yeah, right, because it's true, like you said before, it's not always volunteering. Volunteering by itself, is not karma yoga. Getting paid doesn't mean that you're not doing karma yoga. You could be doing karma yoga and get paid. Being a parent or caregiver doesn't mean that you are doing karma yoga, like you said, it's an internal attitude that no one else can really see, although I think people can feel it. I think we can feel when someone is truly approaching us or responding to us with love and care. That's all it is. And for some, I think for so many people, it's just a natural quality that they have, and I really love them for that. I have to work on it personally, but many people just naturally have that ability.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:16:25
I mean, I noticed that there is a direct relationship between the amount of rest I have and my quantity of generosity of spirit to be able to bring to the world.
Jivana Heyman 1:16:36
Yeah, right! So that our personal situation, our power and the proximity we have to power impacts us greatly. It is very difficult to do that when you're struggling, and that could be very real. So this is not, in no way, is this a criticism of people. I think that, it can come from deep within us. Some people naturally do it. Others struggle. It could be because of their personality or because of life circumstances that have just made it hard. So anyway, it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing, it's all about ourselves. These are teachings for us internally. We can't go around and tell someone you're not being very karma yogic. Do you know I mean? That's not how it works. It's just for you, right? It's just for our internal practice.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:17:25
Well, thank you so much for this lesson, Jivana. This is super inspirational.
Jivana Heyman 1:17:29
I hope it's useful. I'm curious what people think, so please let me know. We'd love to hear from you. You can leave a voicemail or a written comment, and then we would love to read those on the air. The next podcast, then, if you've shared a message with us, Deanna and I can play it and respond. And that is my favorite thing to do.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:17:50
Mine too. You can send a comment. You can send a short story, an example from your life. You can also send Jivana questions, which is an amazing opportunity. So again, you would have like a mini workshop based on the yoga topic of your choice.
Jivana Heyman 1:18:06
I love questions. I do. I love questions. So yeah, please do. Please send us your questions and comments and share. All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening. Thank you, Deanna as usual, and thanks Rod for such a fun conversation and for all the incredible work you do, the incredible karma yoga, the service that you offer the world. Thank you, Rod. All right, see you later, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:18:28
Til next time.
Jivana Heyman 1:18:30
Okay. Bye.
