Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. And I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land. And I hope you're well. You know, things have been really chaotic in the world. We're just in the beginning of 2026 and so much is going on. It's really overwhelming. In fact, that's one of the themes in our podcast today. I get to speak with my friend, Itzel Hayward, and one of the topics we talk about are the locks and keys, which is Sutra 1:33 from the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, which is about how we respond to the world. And I just want to mention that now, because we touch on it during the episode and then at the end, when Deanna and I speak at the end of the podcast, I go into more detail about it. So if you're interested, I hope you'll stick around for that part, and also I hope you enjoy this entire episode. Itzel is so incredible. She does amazing work, integrating yoga, Buddhism, social justice, (her background as a lawyer) and her anti-racism work. I'm just so glad that she was here and spoke to me about her work and her perspective on the world. I found it to be really inspiring, especially right now, when we need some inspiration. So thank you, Itzel, and thank you everyone for listening. Here's my conversation with Itzel Hayward.
Jivana Heyman 2:13
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Jivana Heyman 3:08
Hi everyone. Welcome Itzel, so good to see you. Thanks so much for being here. (It's so great to be here with you.) Yeah, thank you. I just introduced you, but I was just wondering if you'd want to take a moment to tell everyone about you. Anyone who doesn't know you, I know you do a lot of different things.
Itzel Hayward 3:27
I do a lot of different things. It's true. My profession, I started, actually as a lawyer. And while I was practicing law, I also started up a pretty serious yoga practice. Completely fell in love with the practice. Dreamed for years of taking a yoga teacher training, but I thought, I can't do that, I'm a lawyer. And 10 years into my legal, or more than that, maybe 13 years into my legal career, I finally decided I'm going to take this yoga teacher training. In the middle of the training, I left my job as a lawyer [laughs], and I became a yoga teacher, and I've been practicing ever since. That was in 2010, I want to say.
Jivana Heyman 4:13
And is that how we met? I was trying to remember.
Itzel Hayward 4:15
Yes! Well, I love this kind of this retrospective of your yoga career, because I think I was in the first teacher training you taught. Is that possible?
Jivana Heyman 4:28
Hmmm... I don't know if it was the first. I mean, I started leading them...okay, I started teaching in 1995 and then I started leading trainings. I was assisting pretty much two years after that, like, by 1997 I was already assisting, and then pretty soon I was leading them myself. So I don't know, I think I was already leading them, but that was my job at Integral Yoga, I was leading teacher trainings. Almost all of them. It was like a full time job there. But I was just really excited about your work. I loved the fact that you were a lawyer and you just had a real passion about this, about yoga and the ways you could integrate yoga with social justice, which was really my interest also, and I think that's mostly how we ended up connecting. And around the idea of service, I remember that was a big theme for both of us. And you were even in my book, Yoga Revolution. (Yes, yes!) One of the teachers that I profiled. Do you want to talk about that? You have it there, right?
Itzel Hayward 5:28
Yes! I was so honored. So honored to be a part of your book. Always, obviously, deeply admired you as my teacher, and then watching you create your accessible yoga organization and movement, really, and just being a leading voice in that world was just so meaningful to me. So I was super touched to be in your book. You asked me about my yoga practice, and what my work was with yoga, and I wrote, "I see my social justice work as my primary yoga practice," you know, and I still see that. I think this work of supporting people with finding who they really are and seeing who they really are, this wisdom that's already within them, is yoga. And it is social justice, right? When we start really getting to the truth of who we are and we see that we share that with all beings, we start seeing that some of the ways we harm each other, it doesn't make sense. It's not in alignment with that understanding. And so, I mean, that's on a very high level. That's where I see the two intersect. But also just, like, on the ground too, you know, not just philosophically, but in how we show up every day.
Jivana Heyman 6:46
I love that. And has that changed for you over the years? I mean, I know you've been doing this work now for a long time, but any shift in what you're doing and how you approach it?
Itzel Hayward 6:55
I think there have been some shifts. I mean, I have to say not a lot. When I came into my yoga teacher training, I also was doing a commit to dharma Buddhist program. I was also doing a nonviolent communication immersion program. So it was kind of these three things kind of just all hit me all at once. And, you know, I was still a lawyer, right? So I really was looking at, wow, like these things can coexist, like they're not these different things. I was holding them as really different things. And I mean, I even sometimes laugh when I look back on when I was a lawyer. I was a lawyer in San Francisco, I found a sangha that I loved, a spiritual community in the East Bay where I would meditate. And it was like, these people knew I meditated and they did not know I was a lawyer. These people knew I was a lawyer and they did not know I meditated. And I really was just like, these are two different things. No one like...never shall the two meet. And then when it all just came together, all at once, I just realized no these can all coexist, and they do all coexist. Not if they can, they do all coexist. And that when we really awaken to the wisdom of all of it, it's just so powerful, and we can create kind of this dream, I have anyway, of justice in a way that's sustainable and holds everyone with with care and compassion. So, yeah, it was an incredible time in my life, and you were there! [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 8:32
I was there. It was amazing! So it's changed, though? Has it become more integrated now? Is that what you're saying? These were very separate parts of your life, but now, are they not anymore?
Itzel Hayward 8:45
Yeah, that's exactly where I was going, and I lost the thread a little bit. Um, yeah, absolutely, they're so much more integrated, and I feel like it's just steadily becoming more and more integrated. You know, when I first started this journey, I was just starting to learn about restorative justice, transformative justice. I didn't know about those things, and started seeing communities that were growing around these concepts of, you know, seeing everybody's...
Jivana Heyman 9:11
Can you explain more about what that is?
Itzel Hayward 9:13
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So the justice system we have is more of a punitive justice system. So it's really more about, if you've done something wrong, we need to separate you, and we need to punish you. And that's a way. I think, you know, I have issues with that, just philosophically, but also...I won't go too far down this road because it's a little bit...Well, maybe I will. So that's one philosophy, right, this punitive justice system. But then there's also, you need to look at how it's implemented. Who is put aside, who is punished, who is punished more harshly? So there's the challenges with implementing the punitive justice system, as well as just the punitive justice system themselves, like this person is a problem, take them away and punish them. The philosophy underlying practices like restorative justice and transformative justice are more about how can we restore our community. So a harm occurred, someone did something, someone else was impacted and harmed by the action of this first person. Rather than shunning that person, how can we bring them into the community? Find out what were the circumstances under which it made it possible for you to harm this person, to do this, and then go to the harmed person as well and look at that harm and say, what can we do to make you feel whole and safe again? So it's really holding the whole and looking for repair, as opposed to, like the more of a separation. So it was so inline with what I was learning in yoga and what I was learning in Buddhism, and what I was learning in nonviolent communication around the divinity or the perfection, or the beauty, or the humanity, right? All these philosophies have different words for it, but that we all share. Like, what's the ground on which we all stand, we all sit. And so it was, it was really beautiful to see that. And just bring those practices together.
Jivana Heyman 11:12
And how do you do that? How do you bring them together? In the work you're doing?
Itzel Hayward 11:15
Yeah, I do. I really do. You know, for me, nonviolent communication has been a very powerful vehicle for that, because I feel like in yoga communities and in restorative justice communities, sometimes there are challenges within the communities, and sometimes people struggle with, well, how do we hold ourselves? You know, with the same kind of care. And in spiritual communities, I see often that the approach to conflict is to either ignore it, or to just turn to yourself and just go, okay, I'm just going to deal with this, or tell the other person, you just need to deal with it. That's you. And it becomes a very individual practice that you push down or ignore or work through, however that looks for you. But there's not a sense of holding it as a community and looking to repair the rupture that may have happened in the community. And I just feel like nonviolent communication is such a powerful tool for that. So I've enjoyed bringing that into these communities.
Jivana Heyman 12:27
Can you explain more about that too, because it's come up a few times in this season, nonviolent communication, but I know you could talk about it really well. I wondered if you could share?
Itzel Hayward 12:38
I hope! You know, I hope this is helpful. I mean, I think of nonviolent communication, really, as having two pieces, that both need to exist in order for it to truly be this practice that I call nonviolent communication. So first, there's a technique, right, there are specific words that you can use to connect with yourself, to attempt to connect with other people. You think about, you know, what you're feeling emotionally, or what they may be feeling. You look at the values or needs underlying those feelings, and you learn how to make open hearted requests to help meet your needs and meet the needs of others. And so that's the kind of the technique, right? I can write you out a sentence with some blanks and give it to you, and there's the technique, you've got it. But I think what makes nonviolent communication so special is that there's also this lens through which nonviolent communication holds the world. Everything that's happening. So this lens, or this idea that everything that people do is an attempt to meet a universal human, shared need. Everything, right? So we're not just using these words to try to get what we want. We're actually using these words to connect into that fact so that we can cultivate empathy for that other person, and so hopefully we can support that other person as well, cultivate empathy for all. So I think that's what makes nonviolent communication a little bit difficult to explain, because it is these two parts, and they're put together.
Jivana Heyman 14:15
That's beautiful. I mean, I'm kind of struck by what you said about, when you were introducing it, how it's needed in spiritual communities, because so often spiritual teachings are either completely inwardly directed or outwardly directed, and there's not a lot about relationship within...I mean, I only know about the yoga teachings, but I know you love yoga philosophy too, which is another area where we both always connected, because I think we're both passionate about yoga philosophy. I just wondered if you had thoughts about that, around how relationship works within yoga philosophy, because it seems to me that it's a huge area of confusion, that yoga practitioners, who are serious about it and who really study yoga philosophy, tend to move inwardly and like, there is so much inward work that needs to happen -- how do we make it about relationship? Like, what is that balance? Because I feel like it's not talked about enough. I just made a post, actually on social media the other day about the locks and keys. You know the Sutra 1:33, like Book One, Sutra 33, which is really about relationship, right? It's about, you know, greeting, being friendly towards the happy, compassionate for unhappy. You know, joy for the virtuous, and equanimity to the non virtuous. But I think that's one of the few places that Patanjali is so clear about that I just wonder if you have thoughts about it, just generally, because obviously you do. I mean, it seems like nonviolent communication is kind of filling a gap, maybe, that you see.
Itzel Hayward 15:55
Yeah, I do. I mean, I think in yoga communities and in the practice of yoga, there is this idea of of samadhi or enlightenment, or, you know, transcendence, all these beautiful words we have for this experience. And what I encourage my students, in that work, which I think is beautiful work, is to not wait until you feel like you have perfected yourself, to then begin trying to work on relationships or work out in the world, right? So, I mean, I think that's an easy place to get stuck, you know, because I don't know if I'm going to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime. So if that's all I'm working on, I'm never going to get to that relationship. You know?
Jivana Heyman 16:45
Yeah, that's a really clear way to look at it. I mean, that's actually one of the things I talk about in that book, Yoga Revolution, that you're part of is trying to redefine samadhi, redefine what enlightenment is, and consider what social justice has been teaching us for so long, which is like, I'm not free until we're all free. This idea of community and bring that into the idea of enlightenment. Can you be in samadhi as an individual? I don't even know if it's possible, actually.
Itzel Hayward 17:13
Yeah. I love that. I love that. And I love talking about the four locks and four keys as well. And sometimes I talk about it. I bring nonviolent communication into it. I teach it as a nonviolent communication teaching, actually, and I talk about approaching or interacting with the happy or unhappy person right as our opportunity to extend empathy to another. So we can celebrate their joy. We can open our hearts and let their sorrows touch our hearts, right? It is an opportunity for us to open to another person. (Yeah, I love that.) And then the other two, the virtuous and what was the...? I sometimes...(non-virtuous). It's non virtuous, thank you! [laughs] We've heard other translations. So yeah, so the virtuous and non-virtuous, that's an opportunity for us to look at ourselves, what is working for me in what this person is doing, what is not working for me in what this person is doing? And how can I cultivate empathy for myself, right? And so in both of those scenarios, really, what I'm doing is just connecting in, again, with our shared humanity. Like this person who's doing something virtuous or non-virtuous, like, it's triggering me in some way. That's why I'm calling it virtuous or not-virtuous, right? There's something in me that's happening that it's worth me taking a moment to explore.
Jivana Heyman 18:43
So can I say, can I ask you? So what you're saying is, and I think this is probably true for almost all the teachings, can be applied in relationship also. Like, yeah, you can practice them internally, but you can also practice them in relationship to the world, to other people and challenges you face. And I think that's where we get really confused in yoga philosophy, in that we want it to be one of the other, you know, internal or external. Especially around the eight limbs, right? In particular the yamas, I would say, which, you know, are really like, a priority in the teachings, right? Like the yamas, yoga's ethical teachings are so important. But I hear a lot of stuff, like around ahimsa, so, for example, nonviolence that, oh, it's about, it's just how you're treating yourself, or it's just how you act in the world. But I think it's both things, right? It's both. It's and. You know, both/and.
Itzel Hayward 19:33
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely! I mean, I love the yamas because I think it's a little bit easier for people to see how it can also be outward. You know, our action is not just purely inward, but when I talk about the locks and keys too, I say that's just the starting point. That's not the end. The starting point is we connect empathically with the other person, or we connect empathically with ourselves, and then when we find that place where we can witness the humanity of all involved. Then we take action, and the locks and keys aren't talking about that action. They're talking about the energy we bring to the action we take next. So I think of the locks and keys as the beginning, right? That's not the act. The way I enjoy teaching it, and I don't know that everyone agrees with that.
Jivana Heyman 20:28
He's presenting them as a tool to overcome the obstacles. You know, it's one of the tools he offers, like meditation and pranayama. In that section, he's listing a whole bunch of yoga tools. He hasn't put them in the eight limb order yet, but he's basically like, reflecting on a lot of the themes of yoga as ways to overcome the obstacles in our practice. So it's like, it is, yeah, it's, in a way, it is preparation. I mean, that's what so much of it is. And actually, I often go to the Gita because in the Gita, it's more clear. I think there's a clear focus on service and duty and your connection to others and your role in the world, and there's even a connection to this idea of compassion. In the Gita, Krishna says, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like, basically, you know, enlightenment is when you can feel the pain and pleasure of others as your own, which I think is such a beautiful sentiment, right? What he says in that section, I can read it if you want, but it's like, basically, he first says you transcend reality and connect in oneness. Then he says, then you actually connect with others, and I thought that was really cool, but that's like the ultimate level. (Right, the enlightenment boss!) It's like, yeah, you can reach samadhi, and then after you reach samadhi, then you actually feel compassion for others, and feel their feelings more than compassion, you actually feel and experience their pleasure and pain, which was pretty amazing. (I love that). And scary, and kind of horrifying too. I mean, honestly. [laughs]
Itzel Hayward 22:11
It's so funny though, like, whenever I have a question about a yogic teaching, I really feel like nonviolent communication helps me with it, because, like, something like that, I think, in the past, I might have heard that and said, wait, I don't want to feel that person's pain. I have my own issues to deal with! But nonviolent communication talks so much about empathy and being with others when they're in pain, and not turning away, and not getting lost in our own feelings. Like, we may have feelings that come up, but to really be with them in their pain, right? And fully see it and hold it without getting lost ourselves. So that helps me a lot.
Jivana Heyman 22:13
That's one of the things I've been asking everyone in this season of the podcast, if there's a particular teaching or story that really stays with you that you kind of go back to from your past? Because I'm trying to connect back to my past, like, what have I learned in 30 years of teaching? So I wonder if you have something? You probably have a lot of things, I'm guessing.
Itzel Hayward 23:21
Well, now I'm really thinking about this idea of being with the pain of others. And I think what really came up for me was becoming a parent, and I talked with you a lot in those early days, because you've been a parent for a while. For me, it really clarified a lot of the teachings, like even just talking about this thing about feeling the pain of another, you know. I'm like, we know! Like, when your child is in pain, you're like, yes, I'm here with you, you know, from like, when they're just learning to walk and skinning a knee to adult children, you know?
Jivana Heyman 24:07
I do. I've been struggling with that because someone told me, there's a saying, like, you're only as happy as your least happy child. (Oof!) And I'm like, no! Like, I refuse to take that on. Like, I'm not gonna let...you know, I have adult children, especially, I'm like, I'm not gonna let their unhappiness mine. Like, that's not how it works.
Itzel Hayward 24:30
Right. No, I agree. I don't think...(Because it's easy to do that!) Oh my gosh, so easy to do that. So easy to do that. And I mean, I think that's where...I don't talk a lot about boundaries, or teach a lot about boundaries, because for me, it really is just distinguishing and differentiating the pain of another and my own pain. You know what I mean? So if my child skins their knee, that's a little bit of an easier one, where I can differentiate myself, right, but I'm right there with them. Like, yes, I've skinned my knee, you know, I felt that pain too, you know, like, I can be with you.
Jivana Heyman 25:09
And don't you feel it in your body? Like, I mean, when my kids are hurt, I can literally feel it, like, physically feel it.
Itzel Hayward 25:17
Yeah, yeah. And what all these practices have helped me is to distinguish those two things, right? Because if I can distinguish those two things, I can take care of my child, and then I can come and take care of myself. And if this child is an adult child, or I'm dealing with an adult, or I'm dealing with someone who can take care of themselves, I can take care of myself first, and then I can go to them, you know, or if it's something I can't hold, I have to take care of myself first, and then I can hold them in their pain. But it's like distinguishing, differentiating those, is so powerful.
Jivana Heyman 25:51
That sounds more like non-attachment than boundaries.
Itzel Hayward 25:55
Yeah, that may be it. I never really...I mean, honestly, this might be the first time I even used that word in teaching, because it's just not the way I think about it.
Jivana Heyman 26:04
I mean, I use the word boundaries too, but I just think within the yoga context that non-attachment is that ability to be of service, but in a loving way, because non-attachment isn't like neutrality. It's not like not caring, it's just not being attached to the results, so I can actually be loving and caring but not be attached to them being a particular way. That's what I try to think of with my adult kids. Like, how can I love them and not be attached to what they're actually doing? You know what I mean? Like, let them live their lives because they're adults and love them as completely as possible. And I think that's non-attachment, and I'm really working on it. Seriously! But, so you were telling me, okay, so that' the teaching that sticks with you, is around what? You were in the middle of that.
Itzel Hayward 26:57
You said at the start there are so many. There is another one, actually, that has come up. And this one I do come back to all the time, and almost every time, it brings me to tears. So it may bring me to tears right now! But it's a story, and I'm sure you've heard it because I heard it from, I don't...you can edit if I'm not supposed to say people's names, but it was a story that I heard from one of our teachers, a story I heard from Swami Vimalananda. And what made her unique, in my eyes, was that she had become a monk after she had already kind of lived this whole life. I knew other monks in the tradition of Integral Yoga who had become monks, you know, in their 20s, and so that was kind of the start of their adulthood. But this teacher was unique because she had gotten married, she had had children, and then she became a monk. And she tells the story, I already feel the tears coming up a little. She tells the story about when she's in the ceremony to receive her robes, and she was speaking to her teacher, Swami Satchidananda, who I think she had kind of pulled aside because she had some real concerns about this idea of non-attachment, and said to him, I can't not love my children. If that's what this is, I cannot do that. So I'm not sure, like, maybe this isn't for me. And she said that, he said to her, it's not about not loving your children, it's about loving everyone as much as you love your children. That gets me every time, every time, and that is non-attachment, right? We're not distinguishing. We're not saying you are worthy of my love, and you are worthy of my love, but you, I don't like what you're doing. You're not worthy of my love, you know, so like, how do we move through the world in that way. Oof, tall order. But I just thought that was so beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 28:53
Yeah, thanks for sharing that one. I love that too. I love that teaching, and I love Swami Vimalananda, and I'm happy to talk about her. She taught me so much and like you said, especially having a family life and then becoming a monk, which is traditionally how it would be done. You know, traditionally in India, you would have that family life, and then eventually both partners split up and kind of become monks. But, yeah, I mean, that's the thing about non-attachment, people think that it's like, not caring, but actually it's overcoming that personal desire for a particular result. So it is that kind of like ultimate level of love, like pure love, that can be towards everyone. It's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that teaching.
Itzel Hayward 29:36
Whew! I've told that story 50 times, and I still cry!
Jivana Heyman 29:43
I have to say, since you mentioned Swami Satchidananda, every time I say his name, I do have to say that, you know, I'm incredibly disappointed and upset about what happened, that we found out that he was having sexual relationships with his students. And so, you know, I basically left the organization. I just have to say it every time we talk about it, because I really want to be careful that I'm not trying to send people back there. I don't know if it's safe. I feel like people need to be aware of the abuse of gurus, and there are so many, even though many of these abusive teachers had great wisdom. But I also feel like that wisdom just the teachings, and they were just like, you know, accessing the teachings and repeating teachings that were existed way before them. Like the idea of non-attachment has nothing to do with him.
Itzel Hayward 30:36
He didn't come up with it. He didn't invent it. I absolutely agree. And I mean, I would even take it a step further and say that I have been disappointed with how some folks in the community are responding to the revelation of these abuses, you know, so it's, it's hard. It's important to find these teachings in a way that... I mean, I love that you brought up safety, that feels safe for you, because it's so vulnerable to step into these spaces. You know, I know when I came in, I was so open, you know, and you're in a very vulnerable position. Your students are in a very vulnerable position. I was a student and also vulnerable as well. And so finding places and teachers that you trust and feel safe with, I think, is so important,
Jivana Heyman 31:36
Yeah, and it just seems, I don't think the word is ironic, but it seems paradoxical that that's where so much abuse happens, in places where people come, who are vulnerable, and they come because they're seeking, and they're often in pain or confused, and so they're looking for something, and then it's like an abusive person steps in and takes advantage of them. And I feel like those things are related, you know. We see it in in the context of religion too, like where people, you know, priests, abuse children, but also within yoga, like almost every major guru tradition in contemporary yoga practice has had abuse in it. And I would say that it's important, like you said, not only to find safety, but I think it's important to reflect on this issue. Like, I think there needs to be more conversations ongoing, yeah, because like you said, like the response is not acceptable, like the response to me has been equally bad as the original abuse, because it's just perpetuating it, and it's not changing anything. And it's happening, like, currently, there's an issue within the Ashtanga yoga community. There's a person who's been accused of abuse, and the community is, finally, talking about it there, and there's a lot of frustration, because a lot of times it's the people around the teacher who will keep it going and avoid changing anything, because sometimes that gives them power and authority. Do you know what I mean? It's the people around the abuser, often, that continue the abuse, I just want to say, in a different way. And so I think it's important for all of us who are part of systems in yoga, whether it's a lineage, like, if you're part of a lineage that had abuse, you need to continue to look at it and how is your behavior potentially perpetuating that? The use of their name, their image, even their style of teaching? Because, for example, like, there is, to me...one thing I bring up in my trainings a lot is around yoga nidra practice, that there was a swami who kind of reinvigorated yoga nidra in the 1950s, Swami Satyananda, who was very abusive. And I think a lot of contemporary yoga nidra practice came out of that tradition, which has a history of abuse. So I think, like, are we using yoga nidra in a potentially abusive way, by putting people in a very susceptible state where they'll listen to us? I mean, there's some amazing yoga nidra teachers out there who aren't doing that, but I would say, find them, you know, like, find the ones who are into empowerment. Anyway, I didn't mean to go on about it, but it's just...whenever it comes up.
Itzel Hayward 34:19
Yeah, no. It's so important. It's so important. I mean, one teaching that I used to go back to quite a bit, and I haven't as much recently, but maybe I will now, is this expression, I think it's from the Buddhist tradition, the saying, "The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon." Right? And I think I didn't fully get that, I don't think, it took me many years to fully understand that. But just like the sway that a teacher holds, like the one pointing the finger, you know. Students need to be reminded regularly. And I've heard teachers teach and then get involved in abuse and then say, well, I didn't know. I didn't do anything. They came to me, and I'm like, but you know, like, this teaching exists because this is real. Our students are still learning, and they're so open, and you're pointing at the moon, and they're like... you, there's something about you. And you're like, no, it's the moon! You know, right? And so it's just, I feel like teachers who don't acknowledge that they are opening their students to something new, that their students may be kind of taken in their thrall, to just ignore that that could happen, I think is very irresponsible.
Jivana Heyman 35:40
And you're a lawyer, so you know! [laughs]
Itzel Hayward 35:47
Oh my goodness!
Jivana Heyman 35:49
No, I'm kidding. But it's true, I do trust you. Yeah, well, tell me anything else you want to talk about? I know you have so much wisdom, and I love talking to you. I can talk to you forever.
Itzel Hayward 35:59
So sweet. I know I feel like we can just keep at it. I would love talking with you forever, too. You know, just I'm excited. I have a couple things coming up. I'm excited about, I'll be talking a little bit more about, and we didn't touch on this too much, but this idea of in yoga, let me go back actually a little bit. We were talking about the confusion about the internal and external, right? I think the yoga teachings, there are dual yoga teachings, there are nondual yoga teachings, which is this idea of kind of differentiating spirit from like the concrete, like the divine, from the mundane. Like these are two different things, that would be a more dual teaching, whereas nondual is more like, it's all divine, you know, like the sadness and the joy, they're both divine. So I think that's the cause of a lot of confusion in yoga as well, the foundation. And so I'm super excited to bring kind of this more nondual approach to yoga and how we use it to address social justice. And what does social justice mean in the context, if we're saying everything is divine, why am I doing anything at all to change what I see in the world? Right? But I do think that action is important, and how is it consistent with the nondual teachings, or how can we use the nondual teachings to support us? I'm going to be talking about that on February 1st. I'm super excited about that. (That's amazing.) Yeah, it's going to be a conversation. I hope you're there too. I would love to hear your thoughts on that as well.
Jivana Heyman 37:33
Yeah, because, I mean, I'm a big proponent of duality and yoga teachings, you know, duality as a way of really bringing our kind of everyday thinking into spirituality, because it just feels a lot easier to comprehend, you know, and to act, more accessible. So I love that about yoga. I love that about the Sutras in particular, like, the duality, this idea of Purusha and Prakriti. I like that you said sacred and mundane, but it's almost like the spirit, consciousness and then the creation, like, reality as separate, and how yoga is about separating. And we know people always say yoga is about union, you know, the word yoga is union, but really yoga is about differentiating between those two things. That's what Patanjali tells us we need to do, and that that's how we avoid future suffering, is when we differentiate between those two. And that feels really approachable to me. I'm curious what you think about it, because nonduality, maybe, I think it's like, maybe it's the next step. It's like, eventually you can get to nonduality, but I don't know if I'm there yet. Like, seeing everything as spirit and that, you know, it's all connected. I don't know that's harder for me.
Itzel Hayward 38:44
Well, you know what, I'll say, what I love so much about having been your student and continuing to be your student is that you meet the student where they are. You're like, yeah, there's this amazing teaching, but don't worry about that yet! Like, let's start here. You know, I think that's really real. Yeah, super powerful as a teacher, and I admire that deeply in how you teach.
Jivana Heyman 39:10
Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, I'll try to attend, and I hope people well, we can put a link in the show notes to your event, because this podcast will come out before then. But yeah, we can put a link to your work in general, people can find out more about you. (Wonderful. Thank you.) Thanks so much for being here.
Itzel Hayward 39:27
Oh my gosh. Of course, my pleasure. Always.
Jivana Heyman 39:29
All right, take care.
Jivana Heyman 39:43
I really want to thank OfferingTree for sponsoring this podcast. Thank you, OfferingTree. I know running a yoga business means juggling, scheduling, payments, marketing and more, and OfferingTree really gets it. They built an all in one platform specifically for yoga professionals, handling all the things -- the scheduling, the payments, the marketing and even your website. And what I love is they're not just a software company, they're a community, supporting you every step of the way. And my listeners get 50% off your first three months or 15% off an entire year at offeringtree.com/accessibleyoga. Again, that's offeringtree.com/accessibleyoga. You can find that link in our show notes as well. Thanks again, OfferingTree.
Jivana Heyman 40:44
Welcome back everyone. Hi, Deanna!
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:46
Hey, Jivana, how's it going?
Jivana Heyman 40:49
I'm pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. How about you? (Yeah, pretty good.) Yeah? Yes, good. And that was a great episode, wasn't it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:58
I love this episode, and you and Itzel know each other from a long time, it seems like.
Jivana Heyman 41:04
Yeah, I know it was really great to talk to her. I mean, I feel like I'm friends with all my guests, but I've definitely known her a long time. I did lead her basic training. But, you know, we became friends because she was so involved at that center, Integral Yoga Institute in San Francisco, and I was basically managing it and running the teacher trainings there for, I don't know, close to 20 years. And she was doing great work. I always loved talking to her about what she was doing and the way she was integrating all the different parts of her life. You know, she talked about that, how, like, she has these, like, really different pieces, being a lawyer and a Buddhist practitioner and a yoga teacher, it's always really interesting to me. And an anti-racism educator, that's what she's doing a lot of these days, which is awesome. So yeah, so she's great. I love talking to her, and also because she has a real passion for yoga philosophy, which, as you know, is like, my main thing, I guess.
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:03
Yeah, yoga philosophy and social justice as yoga, which I really appreciated her perspective on. And I just want to say, I know that we just said we're doing well, but, you know, it's the first week of January, and a lot has happened. Yeah, I'd like to quote Itzel here, and just really underline what she said that, you know, "The work of helping people and supporting who they really are is yoga, and it is social justice." And I took that as, you know, when we see and you say this all the time, Jivana, you know, when we see ourselves in each other, then we really, like, kind of can stem harm in the world. And I just feel like that's a learning and a teaching we all need to understand right now.
Jivana Heyman 42:44
Yeah. Can you read it again? It's such a great quote.
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:47
"I see my social justice work as my primary yoga practice. This work of helping people in supporting who they really are is yoga, and it is social justice."
Jivana Heyman 42:57
Yeah, yeah. So true. I mean, it's such an interesting topic, because I think it's still a little controversial. I mean, a lot of people, I'd say most people, think of yoga as a completely personal practice. And so, yeah, it's interesting to see the ways that people respond when we talk about it that way, as a practice of social justice or a practice of community. And I think it really depends on the way that you define yoga, because yoga is such a complex and vast tradition. So yeah, there's parts of yoga that really aren't about that. There's lot of traditions in yoga that are very personal and internal. But there's also, I think, a kind of overarching theme that I see in the teachings around oneness and unity and seeing connection. And, you know, if you look at the Sutras and the Gita, you see that this idea of transcending the limited ego mind and changing the way you perceive the world, and I think that automatically means you're not focused just on yourself, and that you can see yourself in others. The Gita even says that directly, you know, Krishna says that after you become enlightened, he says, basically, after you perceive oneness, then the next step is that, and this is in chapter six, and I can find the actual sloka, if it's helpful. But he says that after you perceive oneness, then you feel the pleasure and pain of others as your own. And that I think is a really interesting thing, that it's after the oneness comes this idea of actually being connected with other people. And I think that's the basis of social justice. I think a lot of people misunderstand social justice too, and think that it's like a radical philosophy, but I think it's simply wanting everyone to have the same rights, right. It's just human rights and equity, to me, at least. It's pretty straightforward.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:54
And at the core, we're all just deserving of the same love and joy as anybody else on this planet.
Jivana Heyman 45:00
Exactly, exactly, and that we're all equal. And that's the other thing about yoga. It's very clear that we're all equal in spirit. That's what I love about Patanjali's philosophy, in particular. The duality of his philosophy is that we have these two aspects. We have this human embodiment, and that our body and mind are, they're all different. Everyone is unique, right? Because that's part of creation, Prakriti. But then there's this other side, right? The two parts of us, and that's the unity of our spiritual nature, of Purusha. And that is the same in all beings. And so basically, that automatically means that we're all the same in our essential nature. Even though our embodiment is unique, our essential nature is equal, and that's the goal of the yoga practitioner, is to experience that and perceive that in the world, that equity, that sameness, that oneness, right? So doesn't it follow automatically that we would all be deserving of the same basic rights? I mean, it just seems pretty straightforward to me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:06
Yeah, I'll co-sign that. You know, I appreciated also, Itzel's kind of explanation, and she walked us through nonviolent communication and how that helps us kind of build more empathy and connect with other people. And I actually had a follow up question for you, which would be helpful for me, because she couched this teaching. She said she often teaches it alongside locks and keys, I believe, is that right? (Yeah.) Could you share a little bit about locks and keys?
Jivana Heyman 46:37
Sure. It's basically Sutra 1:33 in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali that she's talking about. And not everyone calls it the locks and keys. There's a few different names for these teachings, and they're also in Buddhism. And I would say they probably existed in Buddhism first and then here, but it's unclear about that history. But so a lot of times, people refer to these by the names that they have in the Buddhist texts, but in yoga, it's these four qualities that we are trying to embody and the way it's offered is that it's in response to four particular situations. But even, if you go back for one step, I would say that this teaching, Book One, Sutra 33, is in a section of the Sutras where Patanjali's talking about the obstacles to our enlightenment, which I think is important to recognize. So in fact, I'm going to look, I'm looking in the book now. What he does in this section, he goes through and he talks about a bunch of ways to deepen our practice and to achieve samadhi. He talks about having devotion with total dedication to God, that's one way. And he talks about Om, repeating the mantra Om as an important practice to do that, and then he talks about how that will remove obstacles. And then he describes the obstacles, which are things like disease, dullness, doubt, carelessness, laziness, sensuality, false perception, failure to reach firm ground and slipping from ground gained. He calls these the distractions of the mind, and the way to address them, he says, is by either meditating on something or by cultivating these four attitudes. And so the four are...does that make sense before I say what the four were? Is that too much detail? (No, no, that's good.) The four attitudes are friendliness towards the happy. So that one basically means that, you know, maitri, which is very much like metta. You've heard of metta meditation, the Buddhist tradition, like loving kindness? (Sure, often called loving kindness.) Yeah, that's actually almost the same word as maitri in the yoga tradition. So it's basically the yoga version of that, which is offering friendliness, in particular, towards happy people. So like, I think it has to do with the fact that we tend to be judgmental and selfish and greedy, and so if you see someone who's happy, sometimes your first response is not friendliness to them, but actually, maybe I don't know what? What would you say?
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:24
I mean, you know, there's always envy. (Envy, there you go.) Right, there's always coveting, or like, you know, wishing you had what somebody else had, if you're not at first joyful for them. That's something. Or maybe that says more about me? I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 49:37
No, you're just human. No, it's human nature. And trust me, you know, here we're talking about teachings from 1800 years ago, and it's like basic human nature hasn't really changed. We think we're so modern and complex now, but really, I don't think people have changed in close to 2000 years. So yeah, that's why he's teaching us to be friendly towards the happy. And then he says, we should have compassion for the unhappy, which is, I think, incredibly important. Karuna is compassion. And I mean, that goes back to what we're talking about before around social justice. I think you could look at social justice and the yoga teachings from this one sutra, and just say, like, having compassion for others is a way of overcoming the obstacles to our own enlightenment. That's why I went back and gave the context of the sutra, because it's important to recognize that these aren't being offered as like moral teachings or even ethical codes. These are being offered as keys to unlock your own happiness and as techniques that help you to keep your own peace in challenging situations. In fact, the sutra...I can go right to the end of the sutra. He says that when you do these four things, your mind retains this undisturbed calmness. So it's basically saying, by doing these things, you get to be peaceful. You get to keep your peace of mind. So having compassion for unhappy people is actually for our own good. And then the next one is having delight in the virtuous. What do you think of that? What is your response to that one, delight in the virtuous?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:17
Recognizing, I think, positiveness in the world, right? And affirming it, maybe, and say, letting it like reflect off of somebody else to yourself? I don't know. What do you think?
Jivana Heyman 51:28
No, exactly. I think that's exactly right. No, that's it. I think that where we put our attention, that's where our energy goes. So it's like, you know, rather than focusing on the bad stuff all the time, and also bad actors. Like, you know what I mean? I don't mean bad actors, but like, bad behavior and going into that negative spiral, you could actually recognize that there's good in the world. It's like, didn't Mr. Rogers say something like that? Do you remember?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:56
I was just gonna say! He said to find the helpers in dark times, find the helpers.
Jivana Heyman 52:01
I mean, it's basically like there's always hope. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, don't give up. And also, in a way, I also think what it has to do with modeling that behavior. Like, that when we see it around us, it creates a model for us to aspire to. So it has to do with aspiring to virtuous behavior, to being of service in the world, to be caring and compassionate and loving people. It can help when we see other people doing it, you know. And the last one is the hardest one, and that's equanimity toward the non virtuous. (Hmm...) How does that feel to you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:41
It's taking me back to Itzel's conversation about nonviolent communication, and how she sort of reoriented the idea of boundaries into, like, something that is mine and not mine, right? Like, so maybe you don't get, like, so wrapped up into somebody's else non virtue that you kind of get sucked into it. (Yes, it's exactly that.) So it's non-attachment, which I think is what you responded to in the episode, right? It's a little bit of a separation between, like, what someone else is doing and what you're doing.
Jivana Heyman 53:12
Yeah. I mean, I think it can be a hard one to swallow, in a way, because I think that our tendency is to be righteous, and that's good too. Like to see when there's wrong being done, and then to speak up. So I don't think it's about not doing that, actually. I think it's about your staying calm enough and, like, non-attached or neutral enough that you can act in a more thoughtful way. Do you know I'm saying? Like, it reminds me of just, like, getting angry. When I'm angry, I don't think clearly. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not very effective.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:49
Right, and I think that we're saying the same thing, whereas, like, I think maybe we've had this experience of somebody watching the news and, like, bad things are happening, and then you talk to them, and it's just like this whirlpool of thoughts. And of course, it's a human reaction, but yeah, you can kind of center with the news and respond appropriately, rather than maybe, yeah, dwelling in a place.
Jivana Heyman 54:12
Yeah. I also think there's the tendency, again, to copy other people's behavior. So I think we do learn from others. And sometimes I feel like, when you see someone doing something wrong, it gives you the excuse that you can do it too. If someone is, like...think of a small thing, like, you see other people don't stop at stop signs, so you think, oh, I can do a rolling stop too. I don't know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:44
I was just gonna say driving on the shoulder!
Jivana Heyman 54:47
Like driving on the shoulder on the highway, right? One person does it, and then all of a sudden everyone's doing it. And it just seems like, oh, well, if they can do it too, yeah? Like speeding, I often think, like, well, everyone's going fast, so I can go fast. I mean, those are silly examples maybe, but it's like this idea that you can go along with the crowd, and that's not always helpful in terms of retaining your own peace of mind, that maybe we need to think for ourselves. It's complicated. Although, in the end, I think it probably goes back to what you just said before about non-attachment. I think that's ultimately the goal, which is, you know, we think of non-attachment as kind of this cold neutrality, but I think non-attachment offers a neutrality that makes us truly more effective in the way we serve in the world.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:33
Right and not neutral in that you don't have values and you don't speak up for it. It's a neutrality, like you said, that allows you to kind of look at a situation with some clarity.
Jivana Heyman 55:44
Yeah, I read this study yesterday about how...I don't know why. Well, I shouldn't be surprised that it was about men, but it was about men in their 50s, and as a man in my late 50s, that's the time, that's the decade where our brains are most efficient and effective, and I was really shocked by that, because I always think that as I get older, I lose my brain power a little bit. But there's a combination of factors, it said, that not only your brain is still active, but also there's an experience level and also an ability to step back and have perspective that you gain as you get older. And I think that's what this is idea is about, that neutrality of non-attachment, of gaining perspective, of being able to step back from a situation to see it more clearly, rather than, you know, just be caught up in your emotional life and your involvement. It's hard, though, when things are emotional, it's kind of sounds bizarre.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:40
Well, and there's a space for an emotional response to things. That's natural and we need to kind of acknowledge, right, and accept and feel. So, you know, it is nuanced, right? I guess it's not about like, dwelling there for so long that it impedes your ability to, like, again, see things clearly and respond appropriately.
Jivana Heyman 56:59
Yeah, which is what, I mean, I can't emphasize enough how much that is a central theme of the yoga teachings, especially the Yoga Sutras. Like literally, he goes on in chapter two and explains that the way out of suffering. He says, future suffering is avoidable, and the way to avoid that future suffering is through the veveka-kyati, which is discriminative discernment, which is the ability to perceive what part of you is eternal and spiritual and what part of you is temporary, human. And that is the way out of suffering. So that neutrality, that perspective that we're talking about here is like, literally the goal of yoga practice. And I think it shocks a lot of people. I don't think that's what most people think of as the goal of as the goal of their practice, being neutral. But like, equanimity is a beautiful word. Even in the Gita, that's one of the definitions of yoga, that equanimity of mind is yoga, right? And that's what Patanjali is getting at too, with his basic definition of yogas chitta vritti nirodha, the restraint of the thoughts in the mind is yoga. It has to do with being restrained, being equal, being neutral and peaceful, right? Into that sattvic state. Do you know sattva? You know with the gunas, you have that sattvic state, the one that's like that peaceful energy? That's where we're trying to go to in yoga, and the practices are to balance us from the two extremes of tamas, which is the lethargic state, and rajas, which is the excited state, to the sattvic, neutral, peaceful state. That's the goal of yoga practice. So I love that. I mean, I love that she talked about it. I love her passion for the Sutras too, and she and I talk about it all the time, which I really appreciate. So thank you, Itzel. And I have one more thought about this section. I can't help but mention Tracee Stanley, actually, because this section of the Sutras, right after that, Sutra 33 in Book One, Patanjali goes on and talks about other practices that help us to keep the mind peaceful, to retain that undisturbed mental state. And one of them is concentrating on the supreme, ever blissful light within. And that was the theme of her last book, The Luminous Self. I think she wrote it based on that. I think she was inspired by that sutra, a different translation, I think, than the one I'm talking about. But this teaching of, you know, focusing on that light, that ever blissful light within, I think, is a really incredible teaching. And I love that book of hers, so I just had to mention it. Don't you? You love it, too. I know you do.
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:36
Oh, I'm obsessed. We'll put the link in the show notes!
Jivana Heyman 59:40
You're obsessed. Yeah, actually, okay, can I tell you more of what he says here? Stop me if I need to. But he has a few other ideas in this section, and one of them, which I love, he says, or by meditating on anything one chooses that is elevating. I love that idea. You know, you can meditate on anything you choose that is elevating. It's so open, in a sense. Sometimes people ask me, like, is yoga a religion? And it's like, well, no, here's the proof. That one sutra alone is proof that yoga is not religion, because he's not telling you how, he's not telling you how to approach the divine -- which is really what religion tends to do, but rather giving you this kind of technology or technique of spiritual practice, offering you the freedom to choose your own focus, which could be, actually, within your religious tradition. So you could have a religious tradition and use that as the focus of your practice, of your yoga practice. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:45
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just thinking about, like, you know, different things and how you feel in your body. Absolutely. Thinking about your garden or your pet.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:56
Exactly. So it doesn't have to be religious at all. It could be really anything that's elevating, meditating on anything that's elevating or uplifting to you. It's quite interesting. Anyway.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:05
Well, thank you for this mini lesson. We're always so lucky to get a little mini workshop from you at the end of your podcast episode.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:14
I mean, it's my favorite thing to do. I could talk about these teachings forever, but I appreciate you asking. I appreciate anyone who's listening still. And I want to mention, this is our last guest in this season of the podcast. This is our last special guest. So Itzel is very special to me for being here today. We have a wrap up episode that you and I will do together coming in a couple weeks. But I just wanted to say that kind of makes me sad. It's been so amazing. I guess I can leave that for our next episode, but I can't help but mention it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:48
Well, it's been special to have this experience with you for a year! A year goes by very quickly.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:53
That's for sure. It really does. Flies when you're having fun! So thank you, Deanna. Thanks, Itzel. Thank you, anyone who's listening, hope you're all doing okay, and we'll catch you next time.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:06
Thank you, everyone. Thanks, Itzel. (Okay, bye.)
