Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him, and I'm so happy that you're here. Happy New Year. This episode is our first one of 2026 and I'm so glad you're here. Hopefully you're doing well and excited for this year to come. This season of the podcast is actually winding down. We only have a couple more episodes. The goal here was to do 30 episodes celebrating 30 years of my teaching yoga. Then we'll take a short break and be back again soon. But I'm really excited about today's episode with Oneika Mays. She's an incredible meditation, mindfulness, and yoga teacher. She shares today a bit about her work and her new book, which is coming out in a few months, which is about her time teaching yoga at Rikers Island prison in New York. And I got a chance to read this book already. It's really incredible, and I'll talk with her about it a bit in this episode. But mostly I just love her work. I love Oneika. I love the way she melds together ancient practices and current issues that we're facing today. I'm also just so grateful to her for this incredible service that she's been doing for so many years. So anyway, I love talking to her, and I'm excited to share this with you. So here's my conversation with Oneika Mays.
Jivana Heyman 2:11
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Jivana Heyman 3:03
Hi everyone, and welcome Oneika. So good to see you. Thank you for being here.
Oneika Mays 3:07
I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jivana Heyman 3:11
Yes, thanks again. And I'm excited for a few reasons. I mean, I love talking to you, but I'm really excited about your new book. I mean, it's just really great. I read a lot of books yoga related, and yours is really special. So I just want to say that from the beginning that it just really got me more excited than it should have probably. So yeah. So anyway, I want you to introduce yourself, maybe just tell us a little bit about your work and in the book too, just because I mentioned it.
Oneika Mays 3:35
I am so grateful, and I'm so grateful that you read my book early and wrote such a lovely quote about it. My name is Oneika Mays. I'm a yoga teacher, a meditation teacher. I've been teaching for about 15 years now. I can't believe that, and I've been teaching all over the place, but probably most notably, I was the mindfulness coach at Rikers Island Correctional Facility in New York City, and I went to the island for about a decade, but I worked there full time for almost five years, and that had an impact on my life, which is really why I wrote the book, because it was transformative work, the work that I did there, but it just transformed me as a person, and I've taken that work with me. I left there in 2023 and I'm teaching more now, since I finished the book, I'm teaching mostly meditation. So, yeah, that's where I am now, and I'm doing some other writing too.
Jivana Heyman 4:35
You are? Yeah, but this is your first book, right? (Yes, first book.) Okay, and Sit With Me is the title, right? (Yes, yeah.) Is there a subtitle?
Oneika Mays 4:44
There is. It's Sit With Me: A No-BS Journey to Mindfulness and Meditation.
Jivana Heyman 4:48
Yeah. So I just finished first draft of my new book, which is actually called Yoga Meditation. So it's a book on meditation in the yoga tradition. And I was just, like I said, I was so excited to read your book because I was in the middle of writing mine. And what you did, like, I just want to say, what you did so well is write in the first person and just, like, tell it like a story. And like that, to me, is so powerful. You know, this is my fourth book, and I still haven't been able to do that. Like, I can't seem to get myself out of, like, teacher mode. So I'm always like, I'll tell a story, but then I'm into like, I don't know, giving a teaching or an example, and kind of like lecture mode within the book. And I just love what you did. The whole thing just feels so clear and understandable. You give this first person account of your experience going to Rikers and then working with different people who were there and teaching them meditation and yoga. And then you share the teachings too, but it's very much in the narrative. How did you do that? Like, I'm just like, blown away by you.
Oneika Mays 5:58
You know, I am so grateful that you said that. That's actually how I teach. And I have had so much insecurity over the years teaching in that style. It's really the only way that I know how to teach. I am a storyteller by nature. It is how led. I was a leader in retail for a while, so it's how I managed folks. I like to tell stories, and I didn't like being lectured at when I was a student. I found it very off putting, and it was the best way that I knew how to learn. And I get very intimidated by lectures and by sort of the Socratic method, and so I learned best, and I appreciate when someone teaches me what they need to learn. So that's kind of the only way that I need to do it. And I've had so much insecurity that I felt like it didn't sound as scholarly, or I didn't sound as smart. For years, I've had this insecurity, and so when I was offered this opportunity to write this book, I had so much anxiety over, is this going to sound intelligent? Is it going to be smart? But I just had to do the only thing that I knew how to do. So it's really wonderful to hear you say that!
Jivana Heyman 7:23
Well, so this new book I'm writing has a lot more narrative. It's something I've been focused on. That's why, when I saw your book and I started reading it, I was kind of like, three quarters of the way through writing mine, and I was like, oh my god, she did what I had wanted to do. And so, I don't want to make it about me, but I'm just saying it was like, you kind of blew my mind, because I had been looking for books in our tradition that do that, and they're hard to find. They're not that many that are so clear, like, that first person account, but also in a way where the teachings are shared too. That's not just someone's memoir. You know what I mean? It has teachings also, and I think that's what you did.
Oneika Mays 8:00
You know, I find that Pema Chodron doesn't necessarily write that way, but she lectures that way, like, her audio books are like that. So I think maybe that kind of influenced me. I think bell hooks and her memoir, I think, told stories that way. And David Life from Jivamukti, when I took his master classes, I think I felt impacted by his stories, and my grandparents, my mother, my father, I have always been impacted by somebody telling me a story about their life. And I just love fiction. And, you know, I was a bookseller before I taught. (Right, so you know. You know what you're doing.) Or just like Toni Morrison and just people telling stories has always, just like, left an impression on me. In movies and television and all of those kinds of things. So I think that's probably always just been, you know, who I was, and, yeah, I like to tell a good story. I've always told a good story. My mother will tell you that the first thing that I did when I came home from school as a kid was to fly the door open, run to the bathroom, and then sit down and tell her everything about the day and had a really good story.
Jivana Heyman 9:21
Awesome. How was it for you writing a book? Because even though you worked in the book world, so I guess you had a lot more familiarity than most of us, but it's, it's a big difference to just, like, read than to write a book. So I don't know, like, I know a lot of people are interested in writing, and so I've just wonder, how did you get to that? Like, did you always know you're going to write a book?
Oneika Mays 9:43
No, I didn't, and I was really intimidated by the process. And I think that probably was because I was around books for so long and around writers. You know, I worked at Barnes and Noble for almost 20 years, so I had met probably every incredible writer that there is to meet. So it was very intimidating. You know, I did a book signing where I introduced Alice Walker, and I've met Toni Morrison, and so, no, I didn't think I would write a book. And it was my best friend, actually, who said that I needed to write this book. And when I started to write it, it was really intimidating. And there are many times when I was going through the writing process that I didn't think I would finish, and I was sitting underneath my table in fetal position crying because it was hard. It's really hard to write your story. I didn't realize how much trauma I was still holding on to about working at Rikers. I didn't realize how much vicarious trauma I was still holding on to I didn't realize how angry I was about working inside there, and about the pain that I witnessed folks going through. I didn't realize how much pain I was still holding on to about Mike's death. So there were moments of just the writing being hard, and then, and then the memories coming through, and it ultimately ended up being a really incredible experience for me, but I'm glad I didn't know what it would be like going into it. [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 11:13
Yeah, that's amazing. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I agree. Like, writing is very... like, to me, it's a practice. So it's part of my regular practice that I do. I have to write. I need that creative outlet, and part of it's that processing. It's like journaling for me. Even if not writing about my own feelings, it's still a journaling process, to think through things that are on my mind. But see, I used to be a reporter, and so it's like, I can't get away from that, so my books, like I tell you, I keep wanting to make it personal but I'm just stuck in this reporter brain that I want it to be as clear and accessible as possible, and, like, almost a little more neutral. And you did! You were clear and neutral too. You did it all. I'm trying not to, like, just say it too many times, but this book was really special. Like I said, I get sent a ton of books in the yoga world and meditation, and I read them, and yours is different. I'm just really excited. I'm excited for you, excited for the world to get this book. You know, I know that it's hard with books, because so much of it's publicity in the marketing, and so you never know how it's going to do. But I just want you to know it touched me and impacted me, and so I think it's going to definitely touch a lot of people.
Oneika Mays 12:37
That really means...I'm so touched. Like, I have such a lump in my throat. Thank you so much. You don't know...sending it to you, especially, I was terrified! (Oh no!) No, I have so much respect for you in the work that you've done. And just, you know, we've talked about Jnani Chapman and how, how much she influenced us, and you know, just, you have done such incredible work in the world, and you know, when somebody that you respect so much, and you've done this thing and you send it out, it's like, I hit send, and I was like, oh gosh, oh gosh! You're sitting on pins and needles when you do this. So I do appreciate that. And it's validating to hear too, that you do this thing, you do this work, and to know that that your peers and your colleagues see it and recognize it, because it is lonely work, sometimes, the work that we do. Even though we teach other people, we're all in different parts of the world. I think sometimes when we do the kind of work that we do, there's lots of yoga teachers out there. There's lots of mindfulness teachers out there. But I think when we talk about Accessible Yoga, trauma-informed yoga, this yoga through a justice lens, sometimes I do feel like I'm a little out there by myself. (Oh yeah.) So it's nice to know and to be seen that way. I do appreciate that.
Jivana Heyman 14:03
Yeah, please. I mean, it's the truth. Well, you mentioned Jnani and I wanted to bring her up, because I just wanted to share a little about that. You know, people may not know her. I don't know how we figured out that we both had the same teacher, Jnani Chapman, who, you know, she was definitely one of my main teachers. I had a bunch, but she was up there, and she's just incredible influence on me, really early in my teaching, actually. Well, so this is my 30th anniversary of teaching this year, and I met her like I would say, within two years of having finished my training in 1995 and she was working at the Dean Ornish heart disease reversal program, and I got a job teaching for them, and so she was my mentor. She was like, not just mentor, but like, literally, she was my kind of supervisor in that job. The thing about Jnani, for people don't know. I mean, she created a cancer program, a cancer like training people to teach yoga for people with cancer. And she also worked so much on that Dean Ornish heart disease reversal program. But she also was a nurse, and so she had this kind of special role in this program, at the Dean Ornish program, because, you know, that was early in yoga therapy days, and so we were kind of coming in as yoga therapist, but her nursing background kind of gave her an in, in the hospitals where we were teaching. She kind of saw both worlds. She knew yoga and she knew the medical world, and that was really helpful for me. So she kind of helped. She trained me to work in that setting. We had a clinic at, I think it was UCSF, University of California, San Francisco, and also retreats that we would run in Berkeley with Dean Ornish. And she had this...well, you know, but I'll just say, like, there's something about Jnani, there was, like, an intensity, but also a funny kind of, like, I don't know what the word was, like, silly, funny, like, quality, like, to her. (Yes.) Maybe scattered, even? Like, there was this, like, weird tension there for me, that I love, because she was just very human, you know, she didn't really put herself up on pedestal. I want to hear about your story with Jnani.
Oneika Mays 16:25
I did her YCat Training, the Yoga for Cancer and Chronic Illness. I only did Level One at Integral Yoga. And it was also very early on in my yoga teaching journey, and it was really a powerful experience for me to have someone who had like this deep science knowledge, which I didn't have. But my father was a scientist, and I was realizing that I had this love of the body that I was really sort of falling in love with the human body and became a massage therapist after that. But she really deeply appreciated the fact that I was going to Rikers, and she said, "You have to keep doing this!" Like she was so adamant. There was this part of Jnani that was, like, very forceful. She was no BS, and she was really intense, and she was sort of like the scattered professor. And there were these moments where she was kind of out there, but then she would dial in these moments of sheer brilliance that was absolutely her and channeled at the same time from somewhere. And I had her just for this training and I will just never forget her, because she had such an impact on me. And she was just so adamant. "You have to keep doing this. And even though you're doing this YCat Training, this training will impact the work that you're doing at Rikers, and it will inform the work that you're doing at Rikers." And it did, like, it absolutely did, and I didn't know that at the time, that it would have such an influence on me and the work that I was doing. And who knew, years later, I would be working for New York Health and Hospitals as the mindfulness coach? So it's like she knew something maybe I didn't, but she was just a really incredible person.
Jivana Heyman 18:30
Yes, she was. I want to know more about your...how did you get into it? Like, what got you into teaching yoga and mindfulness? Maybe you could tell us a little bit about your story.
Oneika Mays 18:41
Yeah, I got into yoga when I worked at Barnes and Noble. There was a teacher who was in an Ashtanghi, and I was stressed out, and she said that I should try yoga. And so I got a Rodney Yee VHS tape, and I tried it and I loved it, but I wasn't ready to commit to it right away, and I did it occasionally, and it wasn't until somebody that I love died that I actually really recommitted to the practice, because I needed something. I felt very disconnected from myself and sort of untethered, and made a series of, you know, a lot of bad decisions, and found myself sort of without a job and no direction. And I found myself just back on a yoga mat and needed some guidance, and realized that this practice opened me up to myself and yoga. I found yoga first, and then I found mindfulness. I got a little addicted to my yoga practice and injured myself, and that's when I found meditation, after I realized that, oh, I can't just do asana. I wasn't really appreciating the teachings for what they were. And I was kind of bypassing by just practicing asana and getting sort of this dopamine rush and, you know, and then I'd come down from that and just go take another class again, not recognizing that I needed to be dealing with myself after the dopamine rush and sort of living my life. And then I practiced meditation when I couldn't, you know, I had a shoulder injury, and then realized, like, oh, this is what the practice is. This is how I'm supposed to be living my life and not sort of living in a yoga studio. And that's, I think, when my journey really began.
Jivana Heyman 20:32
And then what made you teach it? Was it just wanting to share it?
Oneika Mays 20:36
Yeah, I think it's because I teach what I needed to learn, and I realized that I'd been pretty unhappy and pretty sad, and that sadness, I think, manifested as sometimes meanness and an aloofness that I felt a lot of shame about, and I felt like, maybe I needed to pay that back. And maybe not directly to people that I've been a jerk to, but maybe I could give back. [laughs] I think maybe it was an apology tour in some way! [laughs] (That's awesome.) And then I realized, like, oh, this is really maybe what I'm supposed to be doing. And when I walked into Rikers, I think that was the first time that I understood maybe what a calling was. And I was like, oh, I'm supposed to be here, at least for now. And then that ended after a while, I realized that I didn't need to be there anymore.
Jivana Heyman 21:44
Yeah, I mean, I got that feeling in the book that it was very intense, and I just wondered, I mean, you mentioned briefly earlier that, you know, we often don't get support when we're doing this work. And I wonder, like during that time, and I again, it's been a few months since I read the book. But, I mean, did you have support? Did you What did you do to handle all of that? Because I just can't imagine. I mean, I taught in pretty intense places, but that seems really like overwhelming.
Oneika Mays 22:12
I created my own support system, like putting myself back in therapy. I had a network of other people that I would reach out to and ask if they had, you know, the ability to hold space for me. That position needed supervision. It needed supervision, like for social workers and therapists. But I think because it was a mindfulness coach and it wasn't seen as a position that needed supervision, it didn't get that kind of support. And that was through no fault of the doctors, I think, who put that position in place. Since I was the first person to have the role, I don't think anybody knew how much folks would tell me. I was a civilian. I wasn't a social worker, I wasn't a lawyer, I wasn't a doctor, I wasn't a nurse, I was a space where people could just be themselves, and I don't think they realized how much people would just end up sharing. And I'm grateful that I had the level of training and the amount of training that I had, and the amount of trauma trainings that I've done to be able to hold all of that. And I don't know if people who haven't had that amount of training, if they were just a trauma-informed yoga teacher, I think it might take somebody under but, you know, I've had cumulatively, like probably over 1,200 hours of training. So I felt qualified to sort of hold that space, and even ultimately, then it still wasn't enough. So it was a lot. I think those positions for anybody, for social workers, for therapists, I don't actually think that folks should stay in those positions for long periods of time without being able to take time off. I've had these conversations with doctors where we've talked about that, because it's a lot to hold in such a violent environment, not just physically violent, but psychologically violent.
Jivana Heyman 24:20
Yeah. I find that most Accessible Yoga teachers, or trauma-informed yoga teachers don't recognize what they're putting themselves through, in a way. Like, I think a lot of people who are just service-oriented and they want to be available, they want to go into a community and serve, often don't have the tools, you know, to handle it. I got burned out a number of times myself through this work. And you know, there wasn't, I think, for yoga teachers, even yoga therapists, there's not a lot of awareness about it. I mean, yoga therapists maybe more, but like for social workers or therapists, there's like, training in that, to recognize that and to have supervision, like you said. And I just, I think that's missing within the yoga world, in particular. I just want to say. I mean, maybe mindfulness world has that more. I don't know. I'm not that familiar with it.
Oneika Mays 25:12
I don't think so. And I think there's this sense that we should be able to handle it. And I told myself that. I should be able to do this, and that's even aside from the guilt that I didn't want to leave. But just that my own ego telling me that I should be capable, based on all of the training that I did, that I should be capable of doing this work, and there was a point when I just had to admit to myself that I wasn't capable. And then on top of that, did I even want to be capable? Because in that environment, was I upholding a system of oppression by continuing to do that work, and that was a whole nother conversation, and for me, I decided that I was causing more harm by being in that role, because I felt that I was making that system more palatable for people on the outside, because it was like, wow, they have mindfulness at Rikers. Isn't that great? And I'm an abolitionist, and I want these systems to sort of crumble. I still think somebody should be doing that work, but I just knew it couldn't be me anymore. So, you know, there were a lot of factors at play for me, for me, deciding to walk away.
Jivana Heyman 26:42
Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm curious if you could talk more about that, because I think it's hard to know. It's hard to see that, when we're in it like and when it's engaging and people are benefiting from what we're doing, I think it's really hard to see if we're just supporting a system. I don't know. I struggled with that, like during my AIDS activist years. You know, I started teaching so I could share yoga with people with HIV and AIDS, and I had students who were sick, and many died. And again, going back, I had no training in handling that. Like, I didn't know what to do. Someone would be in class and then next week, they'd be gone, and the group got to know each other, and all of a sudden this guy's dead, and it's like, what do we do? How do we handle that? And I think that was really traumatic for me and for the group, and that led to burnout for me at that point. But also separately, yeah, it felt like I was supporting a hospital at that time by offering that class, and I just felt like they weren't doing enough, like the medical world hadn't really, this was early on, you know, in the AIDS epidemic. It's like, yeah, that one hospital, I guess they had an AIDS Ward, so they were trying, but it's like, the medical system sucked. They ignored AIDS for years, and I don't know, society had. So, yeah, same thing, like, am I just supporting a broken system? I think that's question for all of us, actually, all the time.
Oneika Mays 28:04
Yeah, and, you know, it's like both things are true, right? Like, it was really hard, and I was so excited at first. I was getting to teach mindfulness, full time, getting a fairly decent salary to do it, and insurance and paid time off. And it was really like having my own mindfulness practice. I had my own office inside the jail. I got to see people one on one. I was employed by a hospital. I mean, it was really incredible. I got to spearhead and shape, you know, a wellness program that had never been done before, so I could set these protocols in place that people would follow going forward. So that seemed like a really big deal. And then it was disruptive at first, right? Like, when you're the first to do anything you do shake stuff up because you're the first person to do it. So it is disruptive, but as with anything, when you are walking into any oppressive system, after it's there for a while, it just gets swallowed up by the system. So it's no longer disruptive, and it just becomes part of, you know, the machine. So it was no longer sort of doing the disruption, and it was just part of the everyday mechanics of oppression. So I think, I probably think it got swallowed up after a year, if I'm being really honest, and, you know, I don't think I recognize that, probably until year three, and it wasn't until year four I was able to extricate myself.
Jivana Heyman 29:42
Wow. It's true everywhere we teach. That's a very specific and kind of obvious case, because that's so messed up, right? But like, in general, if we're teaching these practices in this Western culture, it's like, you were helping people deal with impossible situations that shouldn't be allowed. Do you know what I mean, like dealing with war and violence and oppression, racism, and homophobia and transphobia, to the extent that is teaching someone a practice to make them feel better enough? You know, is it enough?
Oneika Mays 30:20
Right. I think that's the question. And I think the question becomes, we need lots of people doing it, because I think I also had this idea that I was the only one who could shoulder it, and so switching it up also becomes disruptive. I became part of the machine, so I can't be the only one doing it. Somebody else comes in with fresh eyes, so they become a disrupter. Another person comes in and they have fresh eyes and they do things differently. So I think that also becomes really necessary to have lots of people with lots of different voices and lots of different perspectives changing things. And so that, I think, is another way, too, to change things until they crumble, you know. And I don't think it's just an issue of wiping everything out, you know. Like, I think when people hear about abolition, they're like, well, you can't just knock all the systems down. And I don't think that's how it's going to happen. But, you know, we have to figure out how to do this, yeah, and in a way that makes sense, and it means talking about it. It means getting multiple people involved. Yeah, it's there are no easy answers, but I think we have to keep asking the questions.
Jivana Heyman 31:37
What do you feel like you want to do? Do you have like, a goal or like a plan for yourself, like, is there something you can...I don't know, like something you're working towards right now?
Oneika Mays 31:47
I want to figure out how I can do this work that's not inside, and I don't know what that looks like right now. I knew that I just couldn't be inside anymore. I know I want to do work that relates to storytelling and supporting people once they're out. Being inside is another trauma, and that is something that we need to address. Not only do people have trauma when they're inside, they need to have that trauma address when they're out. So I think that's something that I'm thinking about, like, how do we how do we do that? And I don't know what that looks like, so I'm sort of, you know, mulling that over, so I don't know what that looks like right now. So, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 32:29
It's true. I mean, I think there's so many ways to engage with these practices, and I think what I appreciate about what you're saying the most is just reflecting on what we're doing all the time, like, the fact that you walked away. Like, you were so excited, and you did such amazing work. I mean, the book you talk about the people you've touched, it was incredible stories. And then you walked away, and that's pretty incredible too, to me. Like to recognize that.
Oneika Mays 32:56
Yeah, it's funny. I'm actually in touch with a few of the people who are in the book, and I'm in a program with one of the people who's in the book. And we didn't actually know. We saw each other on a Zoom call, and we cracked up when we saw each other on the Zoom call, we laughed so hard just to see each other and just watching her flourish. Being able to walk away, I think, taught me that I can walk away from things that are harming me and that was a big deal, and I think that shows me that my metta practice is working. And I think if anything, that is a practice that I realize now is really inside me, not just as a practice that I sit and do regularly, but it is a practice that I'm living. (How do you know, though?) Because I'm able to walk away from something that was hurting me.
Jivana Heyman 33:57
Right. But like, I just wonder if you could help, because I think for me, and I think a lot of people, it's hard to know when something's hurting us. I mean, it sounds so silly to say it, but like, I think so many... I'll just talk about myself, like, I'm used to struggle. So like, when something happens, sometimes I don't know. Like, if I should walk away, or if I should just, like, get stronger? Like, is it tapas? Do I get to, like, grow from this? I don't know. I'm just curious. How do you know, like, do you have an any advice?
Oneika Mays 34:31
Yeah, I think for me, talking about Rikers, realize that I was burning myself out, and I was no longer finding joy in what I was doing. I was no longer supporting people or myself. I think about Lama Rod's definition of adaptive, intersectional mindfulness, that when you think about telling, you know, he talks about, we need to tell the truth of who we are with mindfulness, that we need to divest from systems that are hurting us and invest and systems that are supporting us. And if I'm doing something that's harming myself, I need to get out of it, and I need to reinvest in something that's helping me. And if I'm not feeling okay, if I'm causing myself pain, and there's aching pain, and you can look at it physically, right? Like dull aching pain. Is this something that I can tolerate? Am I stretching or growing? Or is it sharp shooting pain that is truly causing me harm that I can't physically move? You know, like you can even look at it from, from that place. That, you know what, this is a problem. Is this stopping me from being able to live my life, versus is this something sort of that I'm lumping along with? End even if I'm lumping along with it from a long period of time, if it's getting in the way of my day to day existence, that's probably an issue that I need to investigate with some tenderness. (I love that.) And it might take you a longer time to realize it, but then once you extricate yourself, once I I turned in my resignation and the way that my shoulders dropped and I exhaled, I knew it was the right thing. And I think we've all, you know what, let me speak for myself. I've had those experiences before, when I've made that decision and the exhale felt right, and I was like, oh yeah, I did do the right thing. That was the decision that I needed to make.
Jivana Heyman 36:46
Yeah, that's great. I appreciate you sharing more about that, because I just, I think it's such a hard thing to figure out, for me, at least. I don't know, like, again, it feels, partially because of culture, like teaching us to just like, what is it? No pain, no gain, or whatever, just like, be strong, like, get through it. You know, individualism, all the garbage that we're taught, I think, and that sometimes even in the yoga world, similar messages are there about sitting with the pain, learning from pain, tapas, like I said, discipline. And I think sometimes it's hard to know when it's not right, when to walk away. And I've been learning, I've been working on a lot myself, like I've been doing a lot of intense exercise, I've been sharing on this podcast, like I did a triathlon this summer, and I've never been an athlete, and so it's like a new world for me, like I've been doing asana forever, but this is different. And I'm really trying to listen to my body in a different way, which is like, yeah, there's often pain from that practice. Like, there's often aching, like you said, there's different kinds of pain. But when is it something I have to listen to? And I think that's something I'm trying to learn about for myself. Also, I think I'm a people pleaser, just, by the way. So, like, that's even harder for those of us that do that. You know, we want everyone else to be happy first. Or caregivers, do you know what I mean? It's just our nature to, like, want to care for that person, regardless of what it does to us. So I don't know, I'm kind of stuck on that, but I appreciate you sharing that.
Oneika Mays 38:18
I think one more thing, it doesn't have to be the big thing that we start with when it comes to extricating ourselves from something that's causing us harm. It can be as simple as the way that we talk to ourselves, noticing when we say something negative about ourselves, and then noticing when we don't. Like I think that's a place to start. I think we often think that changes that we make in our lives need to be really grand or lofty, or, you know, we have to change overnight, rather than just noticing, like, oh, I said something nice to myself today. We can start there. That's a really big deal. (I love that, yeah.) It's a really big deal. And I think in our society, we stop ourselves from making changes because we are so focused on bigger is better. We're so focused on grand, sweeping gestures that we minimize what little incremental change can do. And I think we need to think about how we can measure change in inches rather than feet.
Jivana Heyman 39:32
That's beautiful. And that inner dialog, the inner relationship, you know, that's what I would say too, that meditation and yoga really about cultivating a healthy relationship with yourself, you know, which I think is something we often aren't taught how to do like, you know, what are you saying to yourself? That's what meditation has done for me, you know, just that, I used to speak to myself in a way that I would never say out loud. Things I would never say to someone else, and I'm just like, criticizing myself. I don't do that anymore, and that's because of meditation. You know, I can see my mind a little clearer, a little clearer, but it's taken me a while, you know, to get there.
Oneika Mays 40:11
That's a big deal. And see, you know, that's less harm that you're causing. So when you're when you're talking about, how do I stop myself from causing harm? You going back to that and thinking about what you did in that case, and applying that to a situation, like, really recognizing that you're already doing it and applying that to other areas of your life. And I think we need to remember that, that we are doing it in ways that we're just not giving ourselves credit for.
Jivana Heyman 40:42
Awesome. So there's one question I've been asking all my guests, and I think maybe you've already shared some, but the question I ask, is there a particular teaching or experience you had, or even a story or something from your past that it really sticks with you today and helps you? Because this whole season has been kind of a journey back for me of the last 30 years. Like, did I learn anything? [laughs]
Oneika Mays 41:13
Yeah, I think, you know, it's, it sounds corny, but my metta practice is really, I think, the thing that I come back to again and again, and the person who taught me metta, my metta teacher, was Kim Brown, and I think I wanted her to teach me metta after she said she didn't like metta when she first practiced it, and I didn't either. I didn't understand or appreciate wanting to offer wishes of happiness to people who had hurt me, and I really appreciate now that I don't have to like people to love them. And that teaching has stayed with me and it has shifted my life. I do not have to like people to love them. It's made my whole life so much easier when I recognize that I don't even have to like every part of myself to love me. Like, how much easier is that?
Jivana Heyman 42:23
I remember you talked about that in the book.
Oneika Mays 42:25
It really relaxes the experience of life, because there's a gentleness then that we don't get caught up in all this judgment. When it's like, if I start from the premise where I can have this unconditional sense of friendliness, it doesn't mean that I don't have boundaries. It doesn't mean that I won't stop you from causing harm, none of that. But I just can have this openness, and it doesn't require me liking you to do it, or even myself.
Jivana Heyman 42:53
I was reading something about how the word metta is connected to maitrī in Sanskrit, and you know, maitrī is something that we have in the Yoga Sutras, the four locks and keys. In Book One, Sutra 33, Patanjali talks about different ways to respond, and we should be friendly towards the happy. Actually, that was a funny one, right? Friendly towards the happy? Maitrī. But I think he's offering a lot, you know, generally, maitrī, also this idea, like, similar to metta, like friendliness.
Oneika Mays 43:27
Friendliness, yeah. And, you know, the Buddha said that there's a near enemy and a far enemy, and that the far enemy, or the opposite of metta, is hatred, but it's also fear. And when you think about that, that, you know, we hate what we're afraid of. I mean, you just look around, you know, all these people who are who are transphobic and homophobic and racist, they're just afraid. They're simply afraid of what they don't understand and what they don't know, and it's so clear, you know, it's like, it's so clear to see when you recognize it that way. And you can absolutely see it when you, when you look at it from that perspective, from fear. But the near enemy, or like, the shadow side of metta, is conditional love, when we put conditions on our love, that I will only love you if you do this, and once you stop doing that, I take my love away. And so much of our society is set up that way. And I used to run so many of my relationships that way. They were conditional. I would yank my affection away. Relationships with me were like that, you know, I would stop doing something, and love was yanked away. And our society is set up that way, that we have so many conditions around things and so many transactions around affection for people, and that it's based on judgment and liking people, and that's why I think it's so important that we, that I have this attitude that I don't need to like people in order to love them, and that takes those conditions away.
Jivana Heyman 45:14
That's beautiful. Wow. Thank you so much. I mean, I could talk to you forever, but I don't want to keep you that long, but I really, I appreciate it. I appreciate your time and your wisdom, and also your new book. It's not out yet, right? I mean, when is it coming out? (March 3rd). Okay, March 3rd, so that'll be after this episode airs, but can you pre-order?
Oneika Mays 45:35
You can pre-order now, wherever you get books.
Jivana Heyman 45:39
We can put a link in for that, okay, for you in general, so people can find you and yep, get to study with you, hopefully. Anything else that you want to share?
Oneika Mays 45:49
No, this was amazing. I am so glad that we had a chance to catch up. I could talk to you forever, too. So thank you so much.
Jivana Heyman 45:57
Thank you all right. Bye. (Bye.)
Jivana Heyman 46:12
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Jivana Heyman 47:07
Welcome back everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:09
Hey, Jivana, Happy New Year!
Jivana Heyman 47:11
Happy New Year! How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:14
I'm doing good. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 47:16
Good. Do you have New Year's resolutions?
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:18
I don't have New Year's resolutions, sorry.
Jivana Heyman 47:22
Well, that's good.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:23
Do you have resolutions? Um, I don't usually do that. What I like to do is to more of a focusing on a goal or something I'd like to achieve for the year, and like, a reflection on how I want to focus my energy in the coming year. I guess that's a resolution in a sense, but often it's more general, just like something I want to work on.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:49
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, they say where your attention flows, energy right. I feel like I got that wrong, by the way. Where attention goes, energy flows.
Jivana Heyman 48:02
Right! And, you know, it's like, I guess that's what a New Year's resolution is, actually. So maybe I do make them, but that's what it is, basically an intention for the year. I like to do that, to make an intention for the year. I think it's important, for me, in general, it's part of my practice to make conscious choices as much as I can, because I feel like, what do we have control over in the world? And really, it's just about what we're focusing on. So I just like to do that in a conscious way, you know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:32
Yeah, absolutely. I feel that year to year, my intentions sort of stay the same in some way.
Jivana Heyman 48:41
Yep, me too. Yeah. So anyway, I mean, it's exciting. I think a new year is exciting, just like a new start, just like every day. My favorite time of day is dawn. I just like beginnings, it's exciting to have possibility and potential. It just feels, I don't know it feels energizing to me, in a way.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:07
And there's something about at least in the Northern Hemisphere, since we're in winter, and I would say probably this is the same in warmer places too, in the US, but there's a quiet and a stillness, like everyone is in such a rush at the end of December, and it's like, we're, like, artificially cramming all of these things in, yeah, as though the calendar won't turn and there's not another chance to do something, like a week later. But there's just, yeah, there's a quiet I feel like that's really conducive to spiritual practice in this time.
Jivana Heyman 49:34
It is. It's a beautiful time of year. So, yeah, so I'm excited for this year, actually, anything's possible.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:44
Anything is possible.
Jivana Heyman 49:45
Anything is possible, even beyond our wildest dreams. Like, I feel like things have been kind of, I don't know, the world's been going through a lot, and it's been kind of depressing, to be honest. And I just feel like it's so easy to be pessimistic. And you know, it's like, it's not over until it's over, kind of thing, like, you know, good things can happen. So I'm trying to be positive. Anyway, I want to say, can we just talk about that episode?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:11
This was such a great one to start the year with, you know, talking about new beginnings. Yeah, such an incredible episode.
Jivana Heyman 50:18
Yes, thank you, Oneika. I'm very excited about her book. Obviously! I said that like ten times when I was talking to her. It was just really refreshing. I appreciate the...like, I told her the first person account that felt really powerful to me. I love reading, like, it's my favorite thing, and I like to read good writing, and she is a good writer, and I was just really impressed. And it just, I admire her for doing it that way, and I'm excited. I think it'll do really well. I think she's going to make a big impact on the world of that book. And also it's really nice because it's service oriented practice. So I love that. You know, she's basically talking about bringing mindfulness and meditation (and yoga) into a prison environment in the book, and the challenges of that. And I think it's great, because it feels so connected to what so many people in the Accessible Yoga community are doing. You know, where we're doing service oriented work, bringing the yoga practices and teachings into environments that may not normally have access to these teachings. And that's what she's been doing for so long. So, I'm very grateful to her, you know, for all that service that she offered for so many years and that then she shared it with us in this book. It's pretty incredible.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:39
And I just want to name her book in case y'all missed it in the episode, it's Sit With Me: A No-BS Journey to Mindfulness and Meditation, and it comes out in March, March 3rd. So we'll have the pre order link in the show notes.
Jivana Heyman 51:51
Yeah, yeah. What stood out to you from the conversation?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:56
Definitely, there were a lot of themes. You know, her inquiry about like, whether she was supporting a system that didn't align with her values. And then in that process, though, you know, you kind of asked her to drill down a little bit on like, but how did you know? How did your practice like tell you it was time to walk away, which is the theme of this episode. And what stuck with me was the she kind of named how her body felt. Like there was an embodied wisdom where, I think she said her shoulders dropped, and I know that mindfulness is part of that practice where you can really notice how your body feels from moment to moment. And I thought that was beautiful, just trusting your body is really big thing for many folks. I don't know what you think about that.
Jivana Heyman 52:45
I mean, I appreciated her sharing that. I was so curious, because obviously she was excited about this work, and she did it for years, dedicated so much of her time to it. And I think it was challenging. Well, from reading the book, I could tell. I got to read an early copy, obviously, but it was challenging from the get go, like it wasn't ever easy work. And so I was just curious about, like, what shifted for her, like, when was it clear that she'd had enough? Because I think I've struggled with that myself in my life, just knowing when something needs to end, or when I need to walk away from a situation or yoga class, even. Like, it's been challenging over the years, when I've been teaching a certain class for a long time, to know, like, this isn't really working anymore. Or just like, even with a with any project, just know, like, okay, it's time to move on. Or in relationships, like, you know, certain people that are draining. It's like having a boundary. I appreciate her sharing that about her body, telling her, is that really what it was? Like she felt it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:49
She felt it. Her shoulders dropped, like there was an exhale.
Jivana Heyman 53:53
When she let go. (Yeah, exactly.) Yeah, I think it's really challenging because, like, there's this struggle, like, we want to learn self discipline in yoga and to kind of work through challenges, right? But at the same time, when is it not something to work through and time to walk away? And I guess she and I talked about that quite a bit. I'm curious what you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:21
Gosh, when it's time to walk away. And this sounds like such a throwaway answer, but often it just, there's a feeling, right? Like there's an opening. I feel like, when I left my corporate job, you know, I had been thinking about it for a long time, an opportunity opened up to work with you, Jivana. And when people asked me, like, oh, how did you make that decision? Like, literally, it felt like I said this, like an aperture opened, like I felt like there was a sense of possibility. I felt very open, and I'm like, this feels right. That sounds very abstract.
Jivana Heyman 54:55
No, it doesn't. It sounds really clear. But that feeling happened even before you had made the change, just when you thought about it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:01
When I thought about it, and I was like oh this could be a possibility. Whereas, maybe two months before, I don't know if that possibility would have felt like, yeah, reality. Like, it could be a reality.
Jivana Heyman 55:16
The reason I think it's challenging is, like, I remember when I remember when I started teaching yoga, and we've talked about it quite a bit during this season, because, right, we're talking about my my past a lot in these recent episodes, I was so shy that getting in front of the room and, like, teaching yoga was horrifying to me, and I would have anxiety attacks and was sweating and, like, freaking out, and it would have felt better to just walk away. So, like, I feel like sometimes what I'm saying is, sometimes you need to listen to your body and the cues, but sometimes you actually need to not. And I think that for me, like as a person with anxiety and intense shyness, like, sometimes I need to push through and actually do something I really want and like, not listen to my body. It sounds so weird to say, but do you know what I mean? Like I could have just never taught, I guess.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:11
Well, this kind of reminds me of when it's, like, super late at night, this is personal, and like, you're scrolling on Instagram and it feels like your brain is consuming candy. And I'm like, oh, this feels really good. And to put my phone down and go to bed, even though that's what I should do and will make me feel good, like there's a knowing though, like behind me, like continuing to scroll and like sending you reels late at night that are funny.
Jivana Heyman 56:33
So, yeah. No, you're right. I think there's a difference between those things, and I think that comes to a kind of our through practice, those deeper messages get clearer. Like, I have to say, I'm pretty proud that I don't scroll Instagram late at night anymore. Like I just, I know myself, and I need to go to bed early. Sometimes I'll read late, though, so I'll admit to that. Sometimes I'm excited about a part a book that I'm reading, and I can't put it down, and I'll stay up too late, but usually I'm pretty good about going to bed early, and it's taken me time, but I think that it's that intuitive voice, like you mentioned, that comes through practice. It reminds me of the koshas. You know, we talk about the koshas and how the layers and the vijnanamaya kosha is the wisdom body, or the intuitive body, and how, I think through practice, we can be in touch with that more and know what those feelings mean. They say that all wisdom is there within us. Within our bodies, we actually have access to all that wisdom, which is really interesting.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:45
Yeah, and it is a practice, like you say, to like, you know, mindfulness is a practice that really facilitates that process. And yoga offers tools, as well, to get to know yourself a little more and pay attention to yourself in all the layers. It's not an easy thing to do. First, it's not easy to like, you know, hear the knowing, and then it's not easy to trust it. That takes a while to kind of cultivate and also experiment, and that's a relationship, I guess, that you build in a lifetime.
Jivana Heyman 58:21
Exactly. In fact, that's the word, I think, that I always go back to when I think about yoga and meditation, is that it's about cultivating a relationship with yourself. And I don't think we talk about it that way enough, which is like, how do you relate to your own thoughts, your own feelings, your own sensations, your own inner knowing. Like, what is that inner conversation? A lot of people don't have it as a dialogue, like, I do talk to myself and I think many people do. Some people don't have it in that exact way, but I think there's always this sense of, like, I don't know, multiple voices. Maybe it's just me. I'm a Gemini, but it's like, there's a lot of voices on my head. It's like, who am I listening to? Like which voice, which one do I want to follow? I think that's a big question. I think yoga and meditation can definitely help us choose and again, cultivate that relationship with ourselves, that inner relationship.
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:17
Can I ask you a question about the Sutras and Patanjali and the body and the mind? (Yeah, please.) Because Patanjali feels...
Jivana Heyman 59:27
If anyone ever says, "Can I ask you a question Patanjali?," to me, it's like, are you just being nice? If you want to say anything nice to me, just like, "Can I ask you a question about Patanjali?"
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:39
Do you need a baseball cap that says, "Ask me about Patanjali?"
Jivana Heyman 59:42
Yeah, exactly. Please, God, ask me about Patanjali! We used to, actually, could I stop and say we used to do that at the first Accessible Yoga Conferences, we made little buttons that said, "Ask me about yoga." Because I was trying to focus on this idea of like, accessibility and openness. And so we had it printed. "Ask me about yoga."
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:01
I love that. Now you can't get people not to talk about yoga in public, which is a good thing. This is going to betray my ignorance, but I am curious for your perspective. Because Patanjali, from my understanding, like, the process of yoga is, you know, ceasing the fluctuations of the mind, and it seems like there's some bypassing of the body. So where does embodied wisdom fit in to the Sutras?
Jivana Heyman 1:00:30
I mean, I think, first of all, that doesn't betray any ignorance on your behalf, that is a brilliant question, really. I mean, because there is such a huge disconnect between classical yoga, like, which is what we call Patanjali's yoga and contemporary practice. And I think you've hit the nail on the head. I mean, really, that's maybe the biggest gap that exists, because Patanjali was talking about something so different than what we're talking about in contemporary yoga practice. And part of that is, you know, I think that's part of why we don't study Patanjali so much, honestly, or even the Gita or the Upanishads, because, similarly, they have very different philosophies than you find in a contemporary yoga studio. If you go to a yoga studio and you take a yoga class, I don't think what you're experiencing could even be like, I don't know, like, maybe 1/10 of what you're experiencing you could find within these teachings. Do you know what I'm saying? And it's not bad. I mean, I'm not criticizing that. It's more just like it's evolved. Yoga has evolved into something that isn't always directly related to the roots. And I think that's okay. At the same time, I'm obsessed with the roots, like, I want to know the why. I want to understand it more, because I think it's really interesting. And I and I think, again, I have multiple perspectives on it, because I think it was from a different place, a different time, a different culture and a different audience. And I think we have to really be able to...what is the word? Like, paradox? Or not even, like a dialectic, like hold two seemingly opposed truths. So both things are yoga. Both things exist, but they're really not the same. They have very different essences. And I would say that Patanjali's focus is, like you said, on calming the mind.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:22
But I would say there's another piece, though, that's maybe lacking when we say that, which is, his focus isn't on calming the mind, his focus is on calming the mind so that you could have knowledge of your true self, so that you could recognize that you are a spiritual being. That's the most important part, actually. I think that's what's similar today. I think if you really ask someone in yoga, yeah, they would say that's what we're doing, we're trying to connect with spirit. I think so. Do you think? I don't know. (Yeah, absolutely.) Okay. So I think it's the methodology that's a little different, that the technique is quite different, because Patanjali was definitely achieving that. He's saying that we can achieve that self awareness through quieting the mind and cultivating what he calls discriminative discernment, or viveka, viveka khyati, which is this ability to kind of separate what's temporary or temporary manifested human form from the part of us that's eternal consciousness and spirit. That's really what he's trying to do, actually, is to have us separate those two things. His audience were monastics. These were people that were celibate monks, and probably men, probably, you know, male, celibate monks. And we're talking about 1,800 years ago, plus Patanjali was summarizing teachings that came like from 1000s of years before him, including from a lot of other sources. So he's kind of pulling from a lot of different places, if that helps. That was a very broad answer to your question. Your question is more about the body and wisdom in the body. And I think that he I don't think he sees it that way at all. To him, the body is almost more like a problem, because he was saying that we've mistakenly identified with the body. And he's focusing on going beyond it.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:34
And when he talks about asana, he does mention asana. So there is that. You know, there's the three sutras. Asana is part of the eight limbs of yoga. It's listed, and there's three sutras on asana, right? He talks about a steady, comfortable pose. He defines asana as that. And then he says, "The way you achieve asana is by stilling the mind's natural restlessness. And to do so, we meditate on the infinite." So he's saying that the way you work with the body is actually through meditation and the result is you transcend duality, that you move beyond the dual nature of reality, hot and cold. The other place he talks about it is in saucha, when he talks about, you know, the niyamas, the first niyama saucha, which is purity. And there he basically says, he basically tells you to disregard the body, like altogether. Can I read you that sutra even? (Yeah, please.) It's kind of shocking, actually. I'm making it even harder to understand. So I hope that's okay. So you should stop me at some point, but I would just say what he says. This is in Book Two, Sutra 40. He's going through the niyamas and he starts, of course, with saucha or cleanliness, and this is Brian's translation. "By cleanliness, one develops distaste for one's body and the cessation of contact with others." It's like he's telling you to not be attached to your body, to stop identifying with it, to almost dislike your body. But I think his focus isn't that the body is bad, it's just it's like, in the way because you've identified with it. Because you think you are your body, you forget that you are a spiritual being. And so his focus is so much there on that, like end goal of spiritual realization, he's getting right to the point. So I think in many ways, he's jumped past some important practices. So that's why I'd say that Patanjali's yoga is not helpful for a lot of people, because before we can get to that place, I think we first need to be embodied. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:06:46
Yeah, I guess in like, you know, on face value, like, I'm like, oh, I don't like that. But I appreciate the nuance, when you start to, like, tease, the deeper meaning. And maybe to me, just in my language today, I would say the difference, that's difference between, like, treating your body like an object and having a relationship with it.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:07
Right. I'm going to give you a really practical example of this. I usually talk about this in teacher trainings with, like, any Accessible Yoga Training or whatever, I talk a lot about the use of pronouns when you're teaching and possessive pronouns regarding body and the body parts. So it's like, is it better to teach when you're teaching to say, you know, lift your left leg, or to say, lift the left leg? And it's the conversation we've been having in yoga for many, many years, for decades, right lift your left leg, or lift the left leg. And I'd say that I was trained to always, to not use pronouns, possessive pronouns and be like, lift the left leg or move your move the arm. And the idea was to become detached from the body, to cultivate this kind of separation. But what I found, and the study I've done of trauma, in particular, is that for many people who feel already detached or dissociated or separate from their body because of trauma, and most of us have had trauma, it's more important to actually be in your body, to experience sensation, to be grounded. In order to do what Patanjali tells us to do, first, we need to remember that we have a body. And so I think using pronouns, possessive pronouns, is actually really, really helpful. And I try to use them as much as I can when I'm teaching, because I think saying your leg, it's like, oh yeah, my leg. Like to bring your awareness to it like, it's actually part of me. It's not all I am, right? I'm not just the body, but I am the body too. So I think it's almost like, to me, like, first, be in the body and love your body and appreciate it, and then later you can let it go. Do you know what I mean? Like, in a gentle kind way. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:58
Yeah, absolutely. And it's, like, you know, part of our life process too, to kind of, like, reduce attachments to this earthly realm, right? You know, like, it's part of that bigger process.
Jivana Heyman 1:09:10
Right. It's so hard to describe this, and I just hope that it's coming through. But, like, this is the challenge, I think, of teaching and practicing yoga, which is that, yeah, in the end, you have to let go of everything. But in order to do that, first, you have to embrace everything and, like, hold things really, really close. It's like, non-attachment, the freedom of yoga doesn't come from not caring about anyone or anything or not caring about your body. That's not the answer. It might look like that on the surface, like that's what yoga is teaching us to do. But it doesn't work that way. It's actually first love it as much as you can, like completely be in your body, love other people and love their bodies too, and connect and feel compassionate, and then eventually, through that connection, you'll naturally transcend it. It's not a denial. I think that's the thing, right? That denial of the body, denial of your emotions, doesn't work. Does that make sense? I don't know. It's a little paradoxical. That's why I don't know how to describe it that well.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:10:14
I think this is a great discussion. (Okay.) I appreciate it. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 1:10:19
Yeah, thanks. That was such an excellent question. And I would say like, that question is, like, you could write a book about that, like, because of that focus on the body and contemporary practice. I don't think it's a mistake. As much as I always say, like, yoga is not about all the asanas and all that. They're still so important. It's so important to embrace the body. That's why I teach asana so much, and I love it so much. That's where we are. We're in our bodies. Like, be in your body. Like, don't just push it away. Do you know? It's like with emotions, if you push them away, they come back stronger. So first you have to feel them. So feel the feelings, and then you can let go. Just like, be in your body, love your body, experience as much as you can, and then maybe eventually you can let it go. You're going to have to anyway when you die. (Exactly.) Yeah, okay, I can stop now.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:11:11
Thank you. This was such a great discussion. And Oneika, thank you. I appreciate your conversation to spark this discussion too.
Jivana Heyman 1:11:20
Yeah, thank you, Oneika, and thanks for that great book, and for all your work and for being on the podcast. I had such a great time talking to you. Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:11:28
Oh, Jivana. You have a training coming up, and it starts in just a few weeks. So do you want to spend a minute sharing about that? Because the first session is free, everyone! First session is free.
Jivana Heyman 1:11:39
I know! Actually, I have a lot of free workshops coming up, because the first session of The Art of Teaching Chair Yoga is free. And then also, there's a two part free webinar coming up for the Accessible Yoga Training Online. I know the two part webinar is going to be on balance. You know, Accessible Yoga practices to build balance. But The Art of Teaching is a class I'm really excited about. To me, it's like a progression from the Chair Yoga for Everyone course that I offered a few years ago. The Art of Teaching was just like, I just wanted to dive deeper into that, into the teaching piece, and especially for yoga teachers, and especially for Accessible Yoga teachers and chair yoga teachers, I hope they'll join me, because it's like, I want to be able to have that conversation that really gets into the subtleties of teaching, which is kind of like what we just did today, a little bit with your question. I think that's the important thing to understand why you're making choices you are when you're teaching. How do you speak? Like, what is your cueing? What is your tone? What is the energy you're bringing? What are you focusing on? What is the content of the class? You know, to become a better teacher, I think, there's always more work to do to reflect on how I'm teaching and what am I teaching. And to me, chair yoga and any accessible practice really demands that, because there's already a conscious effort to adapt to practice, which offers incredible possibilities. When you can consciously adapt something, you have a potential to make it a lot clearer, actually, and simplify, and also to be more precise. So I feel like Accessible Yoga and chair yoga really offers so many opportunities for advancing our skills as yoga teachers. So that's what we'll be talking about. Yeah, I'm excited. (Can't wait!) And we have great guests too, yeah, so I hope people will check it out and hopefully join us. At least join me for the first free session. We'll drop the link in the show notes. All right, thanks everyone. Thanks for being here and thanks for listening. Thanks again, Oneika. Thank you, Deanna, all your great questions and everything you do. Thank you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:13:48
Thank you, Jivana, and everyone, you're welcome to ask questions too. Leave us a voicemail. Just a few episodes left.
Jivana Heyman 1:13:54
I know! We need more questions. Please leave questions. Thanks, everyone. Okay,
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:14:00
See you next time.
