Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, which is known today as Santa Barbara, California. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it, and I hope you're doing well. I'm excited to share this conversation with you today, with my friend and fellow podcaster, Francesca Cervero, we talk about all kinds of things related to yoga teaching, so hopefully that's interesting to you. She's such a great source of knowledge, and she's been teaching for a long time. It's so fun to talk to her. Anyway, I hope you'll enjoy this conversation with Francesca Cervero.
Jivana Heyman 1:28
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Jivana Heyman 2:47
Hi, everyone. And hi, Francesca.
Francesca Cervero 2:49
Hey, Jivana. (How are you?) I'm good. I heard your interview with Katherine Budig, when you asked her that, she was like, "Well, it's a complicated question to answer," right? And I feel that too. It's like there's all these levels and layers of our being, like, right in this moment, I'm fed and I'm showered, and my son is with his grandparents, and I get to talk to you. So like that feels really good. You know? Then it's also like my country is falling apart, and there was a school shooting two days ago. So like, that feels really bad. You know, I feel like the capacity or practice, my practice, gives me the capacity to kind of hold both of those at the same time.
Jivana Heyman 3:32
I appreciate you saying that, and I'd like to talk to you about that more, but I wonder if you could just kind of introduce yourself a little more. (Yeah, sure.) And by the way, can I ask, how old is your son? I was just curious.
Francesca Cervero 3:44
He's three and a half.
Jivana Heyman 3:46
Okay, three and a half. All right, I'm kind of trying to keep track.
Francesca Cervero 3:49
Yeah, he's getting big. Happens. (Yeah.) So my name is Francesca Cervero. I live outside of Washington, D.C. with my husband and son. I've been a full time yoga teacher for 20 years. A lot of that time, like most of my income, has been from working with private clients, which I've been doing a lot of for a long time. And I also train and mentor teachers in all areas, and also teach some online group classes that I'm loving very much still. So that's kind of a short, a short intro.
Jivana Heyman 4:27
And I'm curious, you know, we talked about how the world is like a disaster right now. Well, I don't know if that's the words you use, but that's how I feel. (For sure, that's one word.) But I'm just curious about like, how it impacts your work directly? Like, how do you feel like it's showing up in yoga classes, and the way you're teaching right now, and how your students are responding? Like, I just wonder what you're seeing.
Francesca Cervero 4:51
Yeah, it's interesting, because I am, like, based in the Washington, D.C. area, so certainly, you know, we're recording this in August of 2025. At the beginning of the year, when there was like, all these cuts to federal employees, that was like, I felt that very intimately, like almost all of my friends were either losing their jobs or worried about losing their jobs. Many of my students work in the federal government, so they were worried about losing their jobs or being asked to do something that they didn't want to do. So there was, like, a lot of very intense, heightened stress around that. I think since the the DOGE cuts have sort of slowed down, like the stress of that is gone, but there's also so much other stuff going on that people are so upset about that that's present as well. Yeah, I just certainly feel in like all of my communities, my social communities, and my teaching communities of students, certainly a heightened level of concern, of stress, of fear. You know, lot of friends and people that I know who are from a more recent immigrant community, and those communities, I think, are highly, highly stressed right now. So, yeah, I'm just seeing a lot of stress. A lot of people feeling upset, a lot of people not sure what to do. People seem, I think, like very distracted by what's happening in the world, which is understandable. So there's all of that happening with students, but then I also do a lot of work with teachers, and I would say a lot of the teachers I'm working with are wrestling with how to address what's happening in the world in their classes. So we've been having a lot of conversations about that as well. I don't think there's one right way to do it, but I'm just trying to support individual teachers as they navigate that.
Jivana Heyman 6:42
I want to talk about teachers, maybe after, but just regarding your regular classes, do you bring it up? Do you talk about politics in class? Or, like, how do you navigate it?
Francesca Cervero 6:51
Yeah, I did an episode on my podcast all about this. Like, should you talk about current events in your yoga classes? It was sort of like a question tree, like if yes to this, then here's your next question. If no, then here's your next question to help teachers like figure it out for themselves. Most of the students in my group class live in the D.C. area, because it's virtual, but it's still like my students from my in person community, either work directly for the federal government or highly, highly involved and engaged in political work and activism work. I feel like those people don't necessarily need me, like, lecturing at them about what the teachings would say about what's happening right now, but offering support for their fear, their pain, their stress. So I'm kind of coming at it from that angle, but I definitely acknowledge it. I don't necessarily say, like, specific politicians names. I'm not trying to, like, talk about Trump in an asana class. I don't really think anybody needs that necessarily, but it seems like, how could I talk about spiritual teachings about Dharma teachings, without acknowledging what I think they say about what is happening right now. So we're doing a lot of loving kindness meditation and some sometimes really specific, like sending safety and care and tenderness to specific groups of people, you know. So we're working with it in that way. I mean, yeah, I don't stay away from it, but I'm also not super heavy handed with it. I just don't think that's like, that helpful for my students. They know what's happening. They know it's bad. They just need the support.
Jivana Heyman 8:41
And so the teachers that you're mentoring? I mean, I know you do a lot of that, like you said.
Francesca Cervero 8:45
Yeah, just helping them figure out, like, should they say anything? How to say something in a way that honors what they believe to be true while keeping it a safe space for their students. But generally, I think, like, it doesn't make sense, as a yoga teacher right now, to completely avoid the topic. That just doesn't seem right to me.
Jivana Heyman 9:10
Yeah, I think, I mean, I've talked to a lot of teachers about it myself and the programs I've been in. It seems like most are just out there, most people. But some people, especially those work with older adults, especially that's a lot of Accessible Yoga, or live in more conservative areas, they're worried about excluding students or just bringing it into the room. Sometimes the students bring it in, like they'll wear, like a Trump t-shirt or something into the class. Yeah, I talked to a friend about that. So it definitely is coming into the yoga space and there's just, like a division. I think we want to be addressing harm, but also I think, you know, people are confused about how to address the division piece on that personal level, when there are actually people in the room that disagree with each other. That feels hard. I don't know.
Francesca Cervero 10:11
Yeah, and that's why I think, like, staying away from, like, really heavy handed or super specific line of thinking is probably the most helpful, because, like, if I'm saying I think these teachings are directing us to create a world where all beings are safe and free. What does that mean? Like, that shouldn't necessarily be political, but in this moment, because there are people in positions of power who are causing incredible harm to huge groups of people, that is a radical political statement. It's not my fault that that's a political statement. Do you know what I mean? It's just...sorry!
Jivana Heyman 10:48
Yeah, it's strange, though. Compassion and empathy, caring about others is political. (Yeah.) And I agree that is really an essential piece of the teachings, like that idea of just seeing yourself in others, right? (Right, totally.) Yeah, that feels important. Are there other teachings that are helping you personally right now, like, in your practice? Something that's helping or not helping? I don't know!
Francesca Cervero 11:16
Yeah, it's a good question. I'm really happy. It's taken a long time since my son was born for me to figure out the routine and the schedule that allowed me to really commit to my meditation practice. But this summer, just like all the kind of, everything fell into place. So I've just been able to be more consistent with a short, you know, 10 minute but very consistent daily meditation practice. So I think that has definitely helped. And like I said, I'm teaching a lot of loving kindness meditation, and I just really find that such a helpful worldview to connect to, like this idea that I'm going to send tenderness and care to myself and then out into ever widening circles until it touches all beings, and all beings are safe and free. Yeah, it takes down...if I was feeling like, very angry or separate from the people causing this harm, it actually, like takes the temperature of that down and allows me to feel some compassion for them, even, you know. And so what I feel is just like a grief for all the people who are suffering, and a deep desire to do what I can to make that better. But I don't feel that angry, and I think loving kindness practice has really helped.
Jivana Heyman 11:16
So it's more of like a Buddhist practice in the Buddhist tradition, I think. I'm always curious about that, the intersection of that, Buddhism and yoga too. That's what I'm working on right now is a book about yoga meditation tradition. It feels like so often, for good reason, we go to those Buddhist practices, because they're just, I think, really great and maybe more available in some way. I think a lot of the yoga meditation practices, other than the obvious ones, you know, like asana itself, or mantra, you know, it seems like they're a little more esoteric or or something. Really curious about that.
Francesca Cervero 13:19
Yeah, and that's been my training. So I did my, you know, my first 200 hour teacher training with Cyndi Lee, who was one of the first, like, American women to...(Oh okay, she's like a Buddhist.) Yeah, she's a very serious student/teacher of Buddhism. And all of my teachers have been Buddhist teachers, mostly in the Tibetan lineage. So that's my history, you know, those are the teachers that I've studied with the most and feel most connected to.
Jivana Heyman 13:46
And can I ask about your son? I mean, if you don't want to share, that's okay. (No, I'm happy to.) More the parenting piece. Just because, my kids are so much older, and I just think back to those days with kind of, I don't know, like, I look back and I just can't believe I survived, mostly. Because I was the primary caregiver for my kids, you know, and it's rough. I'm just saying, yeah. [laughs]
Francesca Cervero 14:14
It's amazing, you know, yeah, it's so hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. I do feel like 20 years of deep spiritual practice prepared me to be Max's mom. Like, I do feel like that was required. He's a kid with really big feelings. He's big and physically very strong, and like a happy Max is the most creative, fun, delightful little being that I just follow around and do what he tells me, and I have a great day. But a Max having a hard time, is oof, there's just nothing like it, you know? Oof. So, like I said, he's at his grandparents right now because school is closed, his preschool is closed today and tomorrow. So I dropped him off at his grandparents, and then, yeah, I went to an in person yoga class. So I, like, already feel like I've, like, had a vacation to the Caribbean, just having like, three hours to myself.
Jivana Heyman 15:13
That's amazing, right? I just wanna say, that is something that I think all parents understand. Those short breaks are incredible.
Francesca Cervero 15:21
It's amazing. Yeah, just the intense focus and patience and groundedness. But I feel like my practice has made it possible for me to really enjoy the fun parts, which there are so many. I was just explaining this to my brothers, like, I feel like the most important thing about being a parent of a toddler is to be able to keep yourself regulated. One, people say that a lot, because it's like, it keeps you from yelling if you don't want to yell or whatever. But I almost feel like it's more important, not for how I am with him, but how I experience the moment. Like, if I can keep myself regulated, then I'm much more able to, like, enjoy the fun part that comes next, you know. So, yeah, but it's a deep, deep practice, for sure.
Jivana Heyman 16:04
Yeah, my daughter is a bit like that, the way you described him. She's a big personality. My son is a little more like, a little quieter and easier. He was a little easier to handle. And I think, well for her, because she was the second one. That's often the case with, like, the second child is there a little bigger? It's like, you thought it was easy. Well, I'll show you, you know? Like, I know, yeah. Well, he's my first so. Well then, be careful. I'm warning you, because usually second children are more, but everyone's different. Who knows. (Everyone's different, right, yeah.) Anyway. My daughter, who was second, she just turned 20, and she's doing well finally. But it's been a journey. But what I found with her, and what I questioned myself sometimes, is that she needed, like, strong boundaries in life. But I found that, sometimes, I don't know how to say this? It's a weird thing to try to express, but almost like my practice made me too neutral, sometimes? Like, I actually, I felt like I didn't respond. And sometimes I'd let her get away with a lot, you know, I think, because it was easier, in a sense, to be like, to let it go, and to not, you know, make a big deal about stuff. But then I noticed that, as she kept getting older, it was like she didn't learn some of those basic, yeah, just like, boundaries. I think having a parent, like, kind of yelling at you, saying, "No! Stop!" Like, I think maybe she needed that. And I was just like, I was done with that. Like, I was like, I'm not gonna yell at you. I can't do it anymore.
Francesca Cervero 17:39
I get that. You know, this is something my husband and I have really had to navigate, because we come from two ends of the spectrum on this. But I feel like Max is kind of like teaching us what he needs. Like, we're just, like, really trying to listen to him. I think I was a little bit maybe too gentle. Like, I felt like I didn't want to hold the boundary unless it was absolutely necessary. But then it sort of seemed like he was just like, not used to boundaries being held enough. So when it was absolutely necessary, it was this huge battle. So now I'm kind of like, it's like a little bit of the middle path teaching. Like, I'm trying to hold stronger boundaries, even if I don't think it matters that much, because it's like, we all sort of need the practice. I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing! But I feel like I'm getting to know him and figuring this out a little bit one day at a time, you know.
Francesca Cervero 17:41
Yeah, and also, like, I think genetics is a huge piece. Just because my kids are adopted, so I'm just like, you know, they're so different than me and my husband. And like, I could see our influence. I see our influence more now, but like, when they were little, it was hard to see that. It was like they just came to us, like being their full selves, you know.
Francesca Cervero 18:27
Totally, yeah. I mean, and my son is like that too, even though he's not adopted, he's just like, he is himself. Sometimes we look at him and go, like, well, this is exactly what we both deserve, because we're like, both very stubborn and very opinionated. Like, serves us right, I guess! So I don't know. They just are their own little people, regardless.
Jivana Heyman 19:10
Oh my God. Well, that's exciting. I mean, I'm glad you're enjoying it. It sounds like you're finding a way, because it's quite fun. I was just trying to tell my daughter about some of those moments. I was trying to remember, like, her toddler time. And it's hard. It's funny how memory works. I mean, for me, just so much of it's gone. Just like, I can't. I don't know, I think maybe I'm in the moment, but I'm not really paying attention. I mean, pictures help, but, yeah, it's been fun to, like, go back there with her and talk about some of that early time. Anyway. Let's talk about teaching more. I was wondering about, just if you had advice for yoga teachers right now? I'm finding, like, the yoga teachers I know, a lot of people feel like things are kind of slow. Just like, that because of the political climate, that people just...I don't know, maybe they're...I don't know what the reason is, but that they're not necessarily going to yoga like they used to. Like, there's just less people coming. Do you find that?
Francesca Cervero 20:13
Yeah, I think...well, so I work a lot with private clients and I mentor teachers who work with private clients. And I do think because people are having some anxiety about the economy, people are maybe less likely to dive into something that's expensive like that. I think for group classes, though, I mean, it can certainly still be an economic barrier, but less so than a private lesson, I think it just varies a lot on the community. Like, I'm mostly teaching virtually still, so I'm not as tuned into exactly what's happening. Like, I know in like, the teachers that I work with, their individual communities what's going on. Like, I mentor really closely a teacher in Des Moines, Iowa who has a very small brick and mortar studio that's like, booming. People love her classes. People are really desperate to feel the connection of community, especially like minded people. And so, you know, her classes only fit 10 people, but they're selling out every time she has a class. So, I don't know if there's something we could say across the board, like, this is what's happening. I feel like the yoga world became even more fragmented during COVID and it's hard to see industry trend lines the way I used to be able to see them. And maybe it's just because, like, I'm in my house in the suburbs with my three year old, so I don't know what's going on as much, but I do feel like there's fewer clear trend lines.
Jivana Heyman 21:37
I think that's the trend, to be honest, that I see too, that it's like, still fragmented, that we kind of settled but in our own little worlds. Like it doesn't feel like there's a yoga community. It doesn't feel like there's one, maybe there never was. But that's interesting to me.
Francesca Cervero 21:54
I think it's happening in the world too, you know, like there used to be more monoculture. It was like, everyone had three channels on their TV, and that's what everybody had TV watched, you know. And like, everything got more disparate streaming services, and then, like, everybody read like, one of two or three newspapers. Everyone has their own little algorithmically driven bubble for everything that they consume. So there's a lot less monoculture, which in some ways is probably good because it's allowed, like, other parts of the culture, that we're not in dominant culture, to come up and to have connection and to be seen. But it also means there's nothing that everybody's doing or seeing or reading or experiencing, like at all, in any industry, yeah, except maybe Taylor Swift. I don't know. Is she like the only monoculture left, or a lot of people don't like her? I don't know.
Jivana Heyman 22:48
I don't know. Yeah, it feels like that's maybe why someone like that stands out, because they have bigger appeal. I don't really know her work, but I mean, it just seems like, yeah, the yoga world is just so separate. I think, you know, it's okay, in a sense, because, like you said, it's good that we're kind of doing our own thing. I feel like yoga is so personal in that way. At the same time, it worries me when yoga teachers don't have support. I know that's a lot of your work, is mentoring and supporting yoga teachers. And me too, I mean, I really work that too. This podcast is really mostly for yoga teachers, trying to help us just feel connected. And actually, this season, I'm really focusing on going back, you know, looking at my 30 years of teaching, and also helping to do that, I'm asking each of my guests to reflect on their journey. And so I just, I find that those stories have been really...I know you've listened to some of these episodes, and I would just say I found it to be really kind of moving just to hear that personal sharing, because I think that is the piece that helps us feel connected to others, when you realize someone else is having, maybe not the same experience as you, but something you can relate to. And especially if it's a teacher that you look up to, or someone who you're interested in, I think that's really amazing. Are you willing to share with us, some story or experience or practice or anything? I mean, I'm open. [laughs]
Francesca Cervero 24:21
Yeah. I was reflecting on this question. I mean, I think if I had to pull a story or kind of a thought process, a way of thinking that had a big impact on me, and that's been a through line in my teaching, I think it would probably be what I learned from my experience teaching a private student for the first time. I can tell you the whole kind of backstory, if you want, but what I really learned so clearly and so quickly in that experience was, yoga is its most powerful, I think, when it is taught by a teacher who's in teaching from a sort of creative point of view in co creation with their student. So it's not like, top down, my brain is telling you that this is the right, best way to do it. It's just much more interesting and much more helpful and much more powerful when it's taught as a co creation. I started teaching yoga summer of 2005. I was 22, so I was young, and I think had a really, like solid quality teacher training at OM with Cyndi Lee, but we weren't really taught that much about how to teach private lessons, just like wasn't something that was covered and often still not. And I had a friend, a mentor, really, who I worked for actually, I was like the front desk person at her Pilates studio, but she was also a yoga teacher, and she was quite a skillful teacher, offered to pass a private client that she was working with onto me, and what she said, what the friend said to me, was, "You'll like it. She's really nice. It's like, it's really easy. She doesn't really care that much about yoga. She just, like, wants to say that she does it, or she feels like she should, but she's really chatty. Just like, get your tea at Starbucks, and you'll be in and out in 45 minutes." And I was like, okay, like, I can do that. It was like, so much more money than I was making to teach a group class in 2005 in New York City. I was making like, $30 to teach a group class, which, like, is a minimum two hour endeavor. It's just like, you know, so teaching a private client for, I think it was like $90 for a session was just a lot more money. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, but like, that sounds fine. Let me try it. And I had, right away the experience of not at all feeling bored, feeling overwhelmed at all the possibilities, and I could see, yeah, that she wasn't that into it. She didn't really care that much. She wasn't that engaged, but that there were all these tools in the yoga practice that could be really helpful for her if she did care, like, if she was engaged. So I felt like it was my job to figure out how to get her interested, like, how to get her to care. How to show her the ways that yoga could be meaningful. In her body was where we started, because a lot of people need to start there, but then like, out in her life as well, in the world as well. And that felt like such a creative process for me to figure out. Like, how do I take these teachings, make them accessible, make them meaningful, make them helpful, and also get her to care about it? And then it became this co creation. And it was this very rich, interesting experience that I just loved every second of. And so then my private practice grew slowly at first, and then quickly after a little while from there. And so I did a lot of that for a long time. And that's where, sort of my thinking about teaching yoga and like, the way teaching yoga is most helpful comes from that early experience.
Jivana Heyman 28:08
That's great. I don't know if it's fair to ask this, but I wonder if you could just give, like, your top pointers for yoga teachers who are just getting started with doing private or one on one classes? It's something that I've talked about a little bit in my books, my last book, and in my trainings, but I just know you're like the expert. So maybe you could...?
Francesca Cervero 28:30
Let me think, okay, top tips? I mean, I think the first thing to know is that if you have in your mind a set idea of like, this is what this pose should look like or this is where a student should feel this pose, you can mostly throw that out the window. It's like, just not that useful. It's hard as a new teacher because you don't have a lot else to go on, so you bring a little bit of that. Like, this is what I learned this pose is supposed to do, but you want to know right away that, like, the first thing you have to do is talk to your student. Like, ask them, where are you feeling this? Get them to talk to you about what they're experiencing, and then work with them to decide together if that seems like something useful that they're feeling, or if that seems like something that's not useful, or like something that is could be injurious, and then you're going to work together. So you are not, as a teacher, expected to know what they will experience. You cannot know what they will experience. Don't try. They'll say, like, where am I supposed to feel this? You can say, I think you might feel it here and here, but if that's not the case, like, let's play with it, like, let's tweak it. And you really kind of engage in the whole practice, like I said, as this creative sort of co creation experience where you and your student work together to make something that's helpful for them.
Jivana Heyman 29:59
Yeah. And what I found challenging, personally, I mean, I love that piece. I think it allowed to, like, drop the wall. You know, within a group class, often there's not much exchange, that students are basically silent and the teacher speaks. But in a one on one, there's conversation that goes on throughout the class, and that was really new when I started one on one, and surprising. But then I ended up kind of bringing that into my group classes. I mean, Accessible Yoga classes are often non traditional, not necessarily in a studio and, you know, in a place where people just wanted to talk anyway. But what I found challenging in the one on ones was more of the boundaries, actually, going back to, like, maybe that theme, like with my adolescent children, but also with my one on one yoga students. It was like, once I start letting down that wall and there being an exchange, there was like a quick relationship that got built there, and an intimacy that sometimes wasn't there in the group classes. And that's great, but it's also, I think, a little dangerous, actually.
Francesca Cervero 31:01
Great point. Yes, this is something...so I have a teacher training called The Science of the Private Lesson. The section on boundaries is like, when I used to teach it in person, it would be like a five day training, the section on boundaries was essentially a whole day because of how important it is and how challenging it is for yoga teachers. So I'll just say, yeah, I think that that relationship is a big part of where the healing can happen, where, like the deep teachings come through. It's an important tool in some ways, but you have, as the teacher, as a kind of person in a position of power, of holding the space, of creating a container, you really have to use that skillfully. And so, yeah, I mean, there's just some really basic things for teachers to think about and to know, which is that, certainly I suggest, if your student enjoys it, a lot of dialog through the practice, to make sure they're having an experience that you both think is helpful for them. But if there's like, chatting, chatting, chatting, that's like, not really about their practice, this is a no. This is a hard no for me. We don't do this. In a 60 minute session, you have seven minutes of like, checking in, how are you feeling? Like, what do you want to work on? If they want to say, like, how was your weekend? And you want to say, "Oh, it was great. We went to the zoo." Like, whatever. Fine. Seven minutes, hard stop, in the practice. Just like, really clear about stuff like that. And if it gets to a point where a student is, like, asking lots and lots of questions about you personally, this is also going to be a no, because you want to be able to be there, to hold them and support them and teach them, and if you've shared too much about your self and your life, I think that gets really hard to do. You need a stronger boundary than that. It doesn't to be quite as extreme as like a therapist, because of the nature of the teachings, I think, like, it makes sense to share sometimes a story about your own self, your own practice, how it supported you. That's fine, but I really try to keep like information about myself pretty limited.
Jivana Heyman 33:16
And I think also the location matters too. Like to me, it was extra challenging if I would go to their home, you know, because then you're like, in their space, and they have sort of control of that space, and you're like a guest there, and it's hard to create the container of, like, okay, I'm the teacher here, and I'm the one actually in control, in the sense that I'm setting the boundaries. So I think that's something that took a while for me to figure out as well. My students were often chair yoga students also, like, people that were or who wanted to practice in a bed. I would not go into a bedroom. Like, that's one, like, simple thing to say, like, I don't go into the bedroom. (Smart.) Couch yoga came out of that for me, like, I did a ton of couch yoga. (Cool.) But I just feel like that's something for people to consider, just like the power dynamics that exist in the space that you're choosing, and, like you said, how much of your life that you're sharing, and like trying to limit their expectations about that, about how close they're going to get to you. It just seems to me like yoga teachers often don't get training in this. Like you mentioned, therapists get that, but yoga teachers were not really trained to understand.
Francesca Cervero 34:29
We are not trained in it at all. And this is like, really a gap I'm trying to fill. What I do a lot of now, also, is like, therapists also have supervision. You know, where they will go to a more experienced therapist and talk through all of their cases. We don't have that either. So in my community for yoga teachers, that's what I do. People, you know, meet with me, we go through as many of their private clients as they want to talk about. And I think just having an outside eye from an experienced teacher, I think, is really helpful.
Jivana Heyman 35:02
Yeah, and just peer support. You know, we have that through our Ambassador Program as well, but I just feel like it's essential. Like, if you're going to be teaching out in the world, basically by yourself, you know, without a lot of support, you need other yoga teachers. I think it's the answer to, like, almost everything, yoga teacher mentorship of some kind. (Totally.) Well, thank you. Thanks for doing that. And I wonder if there's anything else you want to share?
Francesca Cervero 35:29
So many things that I could possibly share! I don't know. [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 35:33
Well, we can link to all your programs in the show notes, so people find out more about that, about the mentorship. You're not leading that training anymore, the one on one?
Francesca Cervero 35:41
I don't have anything scheduled live to do it, although that would be fun, maybe it's time. But there's an online, a self study online version, that has still a lot of support from me in the space of the online community. Yeah. (Great.) yeah.
Jivana Heyman 36:00
Well, thank you. Thanks for being here.
Francesca Cervero 36:02
Thank you so much. Yeah, so nice to chat with you.
Jivana Heyman 36:04
Yeah. And, of course, your podcast too, so you're still doing that. And I'll link to that. You've been kind enough to have me on there, I think a few times maybe.
Francesca Cervero 36:12
Yeah, every time you write a book, you get to come be on my podcast.
Jivana Heyman 36:15
Well, I've written three books, so then we need to do a third so, by the way.
Francesca Cervero 36:19
I think you've been on three times.
Jivana Heyman 36:20
Oh, okay, three times. Well, okay, I have a new book, you know, but it won't be out for a while, so I'll let you know.
Francesca Cervero 36:27
Well, you're welcome back anytime. It's called the Mentor Sessions, just for your teachers.
Jivana Heyman 36:32
It's really amazing. I love your podcast. (Thank you.) Thanks for doing that, and for all your work. Thanks for being here today. (Thank you so much. Thank you, Jivana.) Good luck with everything and with your son. Thanks for sharing about that. (Thank you, yeah.) All right, okay.
Jivana Heyman 36:55
Welcome back, everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:58
Hello, Jivana, how are you doing?
Jivana Heyman 37:00
I'm pretty good, I think. How about you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:04
Pretty good. I'm dialing in from Berlin this week. So exciting to be back here and explore things, checking out a few studios.
Jivana Heyman 37:12
I'm so excited for you, like a whole year of basically just traveling around, right? Or no, you're not going to just travel. You're going to find a place, because your partner's on sabbatical, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:22
That's right. So we'll find a place for a few months, and it's looking like we'll end up here in Berlin. So send your Berlin recommendations. Send in your questions! Question box -- I hope it's okay to use that for personal use, Jivana!
Jivana Heyman 37:34
Sure, that's funny. You'll have to learn German. Do you know any German?
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:39
I've been learning this week! Das ist lecker, which means that's delicious, which is very important. Food is a big part of my day.
Jivana Heyman 37:49
I told you I used to spend a lot of time in, well, not Germany so much, but Austria. I used to teach at a Sivananda ashram there, about 11 years. 11 summers I'd spend in Austria, and I just love them so much. I love the Germans. Most of the people there were actually from Germany, and it was so much fun. And I found I never could really speak any German, but, like, after listening to it so much for so long, I could kind of start to understand, I think, because it's similar to English. You know, there's, like, similar roots, so some of the words just make sense in English,
Deanna Michalopoulos 38:23
You can definitely understand like, 40% of a conversation because the words somewhat overlap. That's not a scientific percentage. [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 38:31
That's what I usually understand! Anyway. So, well, I'm glad you're here, and I hope you have a good time. So what do you think of that conversation? I love talking to Francesca.
Deanna Michalopoulos 38:43
She's so interesting, and she has so many insights. And you two, actually, I always, I say this every episode, you covered a lot of ground. I just want to put a pin in for a second that, you know, these days it's really hard to pinpoint trends in yoga. Like, there's sort of this entropy, where everything is kind of like in the air, and there's really no through line necessarily. So I don't know. I just wanted to underscore that, we didn't really talk about that, you and I, but I thought it was an interesting point.
Jivana Heyman 39:12
Yeah, yeah. She does great work. I really appreciate her podcast, and the way she's focused on supporting yoga teachers, because that's what I do. So we have a lot in common, a lot to talk about. And her other focus has always been on one on one teaching, which is really beautiful. And I used to do a lot of that, and so I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in there. I hope people, yoga teachers, in particular, I think would benefit from that conversation. And, you know, maybe study with her more. Listen to her podcast. She has so much wisdom.
Deanna Michalopoulos 39:45
You two talked, especially about yoga teaching in this moment in time, where, you know, around the world, and particularly in the United States, there's a lot of fear right now, a lot of anxiety with everything that's happening. And so, you know, she was making the point it doesn't make sense for yoga teachers to totally avoid politics, but there's maybe a nuanced way to go about things in classes. Just wondering your thoughts on that?
Jivana Heyman 40:07
Yeah, it's really challenging. I think I have mixed feelings about it, because I am an activist, and I really believe that we all need to use our platform, and especially those of us who have privilege, you know, we need to speak up to support those who don't have it, especially in this moment. At the same time, I think this is what she was saying too, it's like, within the context of a yoga class, like within the actual class, it can be really hard to bring up politics. It could be upsetting or triggering to students, and that's not the point. We want to offer a practice that becomes like a sanctuary for them, but not in a way that is denying the reality of their experience, you know. So it's really a balance to find, I think, as a teacher, that can be challenging. And I guess one way is to just keep the politics, be open about it, but maybe not within the context of the class itself, like after class, before class, in your social media. Like, speak up, so that students know where you stand, but also so that you're not like, yeah, you don't want to trigger anyone during their practice. You want to help them find ways to connect with themselves and find a moment of peace, especially if they're struggling, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 41:25
That's so true. I think, when you think about leadership as well, we've talked about this before, and you've written about it, about how if you're a yoga teacher, you're a leader. You kind of, you know, as a student...and I'm not talking about this in a hierarchical sense, like you're looking up, it's just as a yoga teacher, you hold a certain space in the room, and you kind of will maybe want to understand as a student, like, if something particularly huge was in the news that day, maybe it's just like a sigh, and it's like, as a leader, saying, yeah, it's a tough day. Like that acknowledgement just goes a long way in just settling the nervous system and understanding that you're both sharing a reality right now.
Jivana Heyman 42:04
Yeah, I think acknowledging it's really important, being honest about the fact that we're not separate from the world. Even if you're practicing and you're a dedicated yoga practitioner, you're still in the world. And so all the things that affect people in the world come into the yoga space, and all the challenges too. Things like racism and sexism and homophobia and all that, that all comes into the yoga space too. But at the same time, like I said, especially for marginalized folks, I think we need to find a way to offer them support and a moment away from that. So there's acknowledging the reality of the situation and also not completely focusing on it during the class. And I feel like there's so much we can do. Like, as yoga teachers, there's so many tools within yoga that can help people during these challenging times. And, like I said, especially people who are struggling. You know, like, I have friends who are immigrants and feel really scared right now, and for good reason. It's really horrifying what's going on. So, I like to be able to share tools that can help them, rather than lecture at them about politics. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not my job. My job is to teach yoga. So I just want to be that for people.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:28
Absolutely. Do you have advice for yoga teachers as space holders right now? Like, as a yoga teacher, you're kind of doing double duty, holding space for yourself as well as, you know, a classroom of teachers in a difficult time.
Jivana Heyman 43:42
Yeah, I mean, the tool that always, or the teaching that always comes up for me, is non attachment, and it's, it's a really challenging one to practice and to talk about. I hesitate even to bring it up, because there's a fine line there. It can just seem like you're really distancing yourself from the world. But I think it's really at the heart of what yoga is about. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:14
Yeah. I mean, I guess you're getting at, like, what's the difference between non attachment and apathy.
Jivana Heyman 44:20
Right. Yeah, yeah. And that's a great question. I mean, I think, I think they're really different, and yet, from the outside, they might look the same. And that's a little worrisome. First, I don't know if people even know what non attachment is. I mean, it's brought up so many times. It's brought up so many different ways in the yoga teachings like, I think the main word is vairagya, which is from the Yoga Sutras. You know, Patanjali brings it up right away in the beginning in book one, he actually talks about right after he explains what yoga is, that it's working on quieting the mind so that we can experience, you know, freedom and liberation. An experience of the true self. He says the way to do it is that there's two parts. It's through practice and non attachment. And so he basically tells us that, like his first real answer to the challenge that he's showing us, like, you know, the situation that we're faced with as humans is, if you want to do yoga, then you need to find a way to practice and have non attachment. And then even says non attachment is kind of the key element, that it's freedom from craving. So he says practice is an effort to quiet your mind or steady your mind, and non attachment is freedom from craving, from selfish craving. And that's a really hard one, especially in capitalism, like, it just feels so extreme. Doesn't it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:49
Right. They are like cravings manufactured, like you're being bombarded with cravings that you didn't know you wanted, all day long.
Jivana Heyman 45:55
Yeah. it's like so opposite of what we normally think, that it can feel bizarre. That's why I think non attachment is so challenging, especially in the West, to understand. One way I like to teach about it is to say that it's a double negative, you know? In English, when you have a double negative, it's like, well, actually, what is it? What's the positive? Because a double negative is confusing, right? An attachment is, I mean, not negative, but it's a it's an obstacle. Attachment is the thing that you think you need from outside of yourself to be happy. So any attachment is something that you are relying on or looking to to make you happy, because the yoga teachings say that happiness is our true nature, and yoga is all about being more interior focused than externally focused, and connecting with that spirit that is within us, that is already joyful, that is joy. So attachments are the mistaken belief that we're going to find happiness out in the world through whatever, like your relationship or money or whatever the thing is. Where it gets tricky is that we do need some things in the world. We need basic, like human rights. We need to be free. We need to actually have food and housing and shelter and freedom of expression and equal rights for all of us. Do you know what I mean? So it's really confusing, because, yes, we do need some things, but the teachings are talking on a spiritual level with an internal level, which is like, are we dependent on something that we can't control? And for spiritual practice, that's the question. How do you find that in yourself? Not even find it, how do you remember that you already have that within yourself rather than looking outside? Does that make sense? I know it's a little...I'm not explaining well, but...
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:02
No, it's beautiful thought, and I appreciate that mini lesson. We always get, like, a little workshop with you at the end of the session. Like amazing webinars. I also like to think of non attachment, maybe in the sense if you're teaching too, like the things you're sharing will ultimately make the world a better place, but you can't necessarily be attached to the result in that moment. You may not see the fruits of your efforts, and that maybe allows you to, like, continue sharing it in that way with a little more freedom, because, you know, it's rough out there, and a lot of people are seeing results of activism, and a lot of people a lot of roadblocks too, right now. And so if we were to like, be so concerned with immediate results, like, everyone would just stop, it would be very disheartening. So I think if you're just letting go of a little bit and saying, well, I'm doing this maybe for folks after me or I won't even know what effect my effort had, it allows you to maybe keep at it and have stamina.
Jivana Heyman 49:06
Yes, exactly. And also that's really the heart of service, or karma yoga, which is basically the goal of all of our practices, right? Which is non attachment is the key to being to be able to do service, is to not look for the results yourself, like it talks about in the Bhagavad Gita, right, to not focus on the result, or to have skill and action. Skill and action, which is sometimes the definition of yoga that's given, one of the definitions from the Gita, which is to act with non attachment, you know, to not be focused on the result, because you have found what you need within yourself. Your essential peace or joy is found within so that you're not looking for it externally. And what I was saying before about double negative, is that attachments are basically negative, they cause suffering, like Patanjali explains that suffering is caused through them. So to release them is a type of freedom. So sometimes, and that's one of the key words in that sutra, you know, freedom from craving. He's talking about freedom. That's really the goal here, is to be free from being dependent on external things, so dependent on the world at all, because the world will always be challenging or upsetting in some way. There's always something. So it's like, how can you find that for yourself so that then you can act with skill? That's what the skill and action piece is. That's what the service part is, is that when you're working from a place of non attachment, you're actually more effective in the world. So that's kind of what you're getting at too. It's like, maybe not for yourself, but for others.
Jivana Heyman 50:46
And I think it's funny, because sometimes, I'll give you one analogy, and we can move on to something else. But I always think about how doctors, say like a surgeon, you would think that a surgeon would want to operate on their family member because they care about them so much, right? Like because they care the most, you would think, oh, you know, I want to go to my family member to have this surgery. But it's actually illegal to operate on a family member. Do you know that? (I actually didn't know that.) Yeah, it is. It's not ethical, because of our attachments. Our attachments are so strong that our emotions interfere with our skill, because when you're emotional and you're worried so much about the result, you can't actually perform well. So there's something about a certain neutrality that allows us to be skillful in what we do, and I think that's true for all of us, and we can all find that in our lives, and it's not in a cold, harsh way, but in a freeing way, right? I think about it as a writer too, you know, or as a creative person, it's like, when I'm creative, it's when I'm not thinking about the result. I'm not thinking about what is someone going to say about this or think about it later. Do you know, I mean? Like, am I going to be criticized? I think freedom allows for creativity. So non attachment also flows into that creative space. That is also a spiritual practice, if you're creative. Don't you find that? I know you're a writer too.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:29
Yeah. I mean, if you're getting too obsessed with the results, which I understand, like, it's easy to be like, oh, how is this going to be received? Then it just absolutely interferes with the flow of things and your connection to your creative source and everything. It's just, yeah, the quality of the work suffers too in the end, and then it becomes the cycle where then you worry more about the result, and then you can't get back into the flow. So it's kind of a bad cycle.
Jivana Heyman 52:55
Exactly. At the same time, I don't think non attachment stops us from acting. I don't think it's apathy, I think it actually causes us to act with skill and to be way more effective, and also it allows us to work from a place of selflessness, because we're not so much focused on ourselves, but on others. You can actually be more loving and caring in the way you act. I was at a demonstration recently, a huge demonstration here in Santa Barbara. I think there was something like 13,000 people, which is like over 10% of our population in this little town, in this small, small town, which just really touched me. And I thought, it was funny because it was being framed as like, an angry protest, but it was like the sweetest, most loving positive vibe. People were just wanting something good. Do you know what I mean? Like they're really wanting that. That's kind of what I think comes out of non attachment, actually, in a way, is like the ability to care for others and not just focus on your selfish needs. You know, not just think about your bank account, but actually about others who are really struggling. And I think that's the problem that we found ourselves in. It's like we are in a selfish culture that is totally like, consumed with what can I get rather than caring for others? It's like empathy and compassion are like bad words now, which is so the opposite of what yoga. That's literally what yoga is for.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:29
There's so many facets of non attachment that we've just talked about, on so many levels. It's incredible.
Jivana Heyman 54:36
It is incredible. It really is. And thanks for asking. And I really hope that was useful, because I really think it's one of those essential teachings that is so subtle and hard to grasp. But I'm sure even the midst of this conversation, I've lost track somewhere. But it's like, just to keep going back to it, as a yoga practitioner, I think is key. You know, you can read in the in the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali talks about it in book one, sutra 15, or you could look at the Bhagavad Gita chapter three, which is the chapter on karma yoga. I think there's some really great teachings for us there.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:14
And speaking of Yoga Sutras, on Thursday, in two days, you're starting a new course. And by the way, the first session is free. We'll drop a link in, you can sign up for the first one as a free workshop, so you're getting bonus Jivana time after this mini workshop. [Jivana laughs]. But tell us what you'll be talking about.
Jivana Heyman 55:33
Two hours of me. It's the first time I've done a whole two hours for free. Usually I do a short webinar free, but this time I thought we'll just do the whole first session. So the course is on exploring pranayama and meditation and how to make it accessible through the eight limbs of yoga, which is from the Yoga Sutras. I feel like it's a very accessible format for people to create a personal meditation practice, which is really kind of the underlying goal of the series. So it's an eight part series. Each session will cover one limb of Ashtanga Yoga. So the first limb, obviously, is on yama, which is the ethical teachings of yoga. Which is the first and maybe most important teaching of yoga, is Yama, like ahimsa, for example, the first one, which is non violence, non harm, which I think Patanjali is really emphasizing. In yoga scriptures, or like the writings of yoga, the first thing in a list is considered by far the most important. Like, it wasn't just first. Like, when you put something first, it actually means that that's the main teaching, and everything else that follows is to support it. So I think not only are the yamas the most important, but ahimsa is really the most important. And it's fun, I'm excited to explore that. I mean, maybe not fun for most people, but fun for me!
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:50
I didn't know that. That's fascinating. Like, just the order of things is actually important.
Jivana Heyman 56:54
It is important. Yes, the order is considered important in this tradition, and I think his emphasis on ahimsa is really profound. And potentially lost in contemporary practice. I hear a lot of people just like, what's the word, name dropping? Like, we'll say, like, oh yeah, I practice all eight limbs of the yoga. But it's like, how, actually? How do you actually do that? How are you practicing all eight limbs? I really want to know, like, easier said than done. I'll just say that. So that's what we'll do. We're going to explore to explore how to practice yama in the free webinar. And then for the rest of the series, we'll go through all the other limbs, you know, looking at again, how to build a personal practice. Because to me, a personal practice is really based on meditation, which is the essential teaching of yoga. And so I'd like to share that with people and hopefully inspire them to practice. We'll spend time in each session doing pranayama and meditation practice as well, just to give people like the feel.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:49
How did you select the pranayama and meditation practices you're offering in each session?
Jivana Heyman 57:53
Well, like I said, I mean, meditation is like the heart of yoga, which people just seem to forget. You know, we get so enamored by asana that we lose track of actually, it's meditation that's the key. And even asana is a form of meditation. And I would say, for me and everyone I've taught over the years, I see that pranayama is an essential preparation for meditation. So I chose those because really, I want to give people an opportunity to have a personal practice. And to me, a personal practice is founded in pranayama and meditation with the addition of asana. I think asana to support that pranayama and meditation, because meditation is where we really get to work with our mind. And I'm not saying it has to be a formal, seated practice, like I said it could be asana. Could be one way to do meditation. There's so many ways to practice meditation in the yoga tradition, which is actually the book I'm working on. So you have to stop me, because I literally could talk about this for hours, it's literally the thing I'm writing right now, like a whole book about. But I'll try not to go over two hours in each session. But I have a lot of feelings about it. I feel like we need to really explore the variety of ways that meditation is offered within the yoga tradition, which is incredible. And I also think it's kind of amazing to find it within the eight limbs, which is a lot more concise. We're not going to look at the entire yoga tradition. We're just going to focus on the eight limbs, which will limit me, which is good. We'll explore yama, of course, ethics and niyama, which is also a form of ethical practice, asana, of course, and pranayama, and then meditation, and all the subtle aspects of meditation, like pratyahara (sense withdrawal), dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation), and samadhi (self realization). Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:44
Yeah, and this is great. I just want to say, though, that you're offering different types of meditation in each session, so it is really going to lend itself to creating a personal practice, because you'll be able to try them all with you, a skilled teacher, and really see what speaks to you and how each one really impacts you and your life after the meditation. So I'm looking forward to this.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:07
Good! Well, I hope lots of people join us. It'll be fun. And like you said, the first session is free, so nothing to lose, yeah. But anyway, thanks for asking, and thanks everyone for listening today, and for your attention and interest in all the things that we're talking about. Thank you so much to Francesca. I really appreciate her work and her support of my work over the years. It's been really sweet, and I hope people will reach out and find out how they can study with her more. And thank you, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:40
Thank you, Jivana. I enjoyed this episode, enjoyed this conversation. So I'll see you again soon.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:46
All right, thanks, everyone. (Bye, everyone.) Bye.
