Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Chumash land, which is known today as Santa Barbara, California. And I'm so glad you're here, thanks so much for joining me. It really means a lot to me, and I have a great conversation for you today. In fact, I think you're going to be really surprised and inspired by my guest, Finlay Wilson, you may know Finlay because he's quite popular on social media as the Kilted Yogi. He usually shares a pretty intense physical practice, but there's a lot you don't know about him, and that is, I'm guessing you don't, and that is that he has a new book out on chair yoga. And that makes me so happy, you know, because chair yoga is one of my favorite things. His new book is called Adapting Chair Yoga for Every Body, and it's just really sweet book, very clear, concise, lots of great information about practicing in a chair, which I love. And he shares a little bit about that, and he shares his story, which is quite compelling, and a lot about the community based work he's doing in Scotland, which is amazing, with his nonprofit yoga studio. And we also talk a bit about being out of the closet, and I just want to say how grateful I am to Finlay for being so open about being a queer person. It means a lot to me, since I'm also queer, and I know it means a lot for all the other queer yoga teachers out there to have role models like him. So I just want to say thank you for that, for being brave and courageous and continuing to speak your truth. It just, it really means a lot these days in particular. So I will leave it at that. Here's my conversation with Finlay Wilson.
Jivana Heyman 2:22
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Jivana Heyman 3:40
Okay, hi everyone. Welcome, Finlay. (Hi, nice to meet everybody.) Yeah, thanks so much for being here. It's great to finally talk to you. I know we've been in contact for a long time, but we've never been face to face. Is this face to face? I think it is.
Finlay Wilson 3:55
This counts as face to face, but in our defense, there's a massive time zone difference.
Jivana Heyman 3:59
Yeah, I know it's quite late for you. So thanks for doing this. So I thought maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit. I've already mentioned a little bit about you, from what I know, but I thought it might be fair to give you a chance. Yeah.
Finlay Wilson 4:11
Sure. So my name is Finlay. I am a yoga teacher in Dundee in Scotland. I've been running a yoga studio for the last 15 years. We operate as a not for profit, so while we offer community classes, a large part of what we do is fundraising efforts to offer a lot of free classes, either in the community or in our space. So we do a lot of like free pre and postnatal yoga, a wheelchair yoga program, adaptive chair yoga programs for amputees and veterans, as well as an entire community outreach system that takes us into schools, inpatient services, hospitals, care homes, prisons. We kind of do a little bit of everything, and I'm really passionate about getting yoga teachers who are doing that work remunerated for their skills and their time so that they can take time off and have vacation days and actually look after themselves. So I'm trying to change how things are over here, away from like the drudgery of the freelance lifestyle.
Jivana Heyman 5:20
That's amazing. Really, I had no idea that was the amount of service you were doing. And it's such a great point around getting paid and getting supported as a teacher. And, you know, I just think it's probably even worse here. I don't know, but I think in the US it's even more of a challenge. But the other thing is, you also have a new book coming out. Is it out yet, actually? I mean, I've only seen the PDF.
Finlay Wilson 5:42
It's imminent. It is imminent. So I think it's coming out like midway through September, and that is called Adapting Chair Yoga for Every Body. And essentially, the aim was to produce a resource so that whether the person is a practitioner or a teacher, they can feel comfortable picking up exercises that are a little bit of upper body, a little bit of lower body, that might refine into twists or forward bends. And then trying to give some structure to how you could put together a session for yourself. But also to encourage teachers who maybe work in these fields how they could modify, because I think a lot of people are quite daunted by making their classes accessible. And I feel like it's because there's maybe just not that many resources that people can pick up and go, "Oh, I see that, I could have thought of that, let's do that." So even if it just enables some confidence, I think it would make a good impact.
Jivana Heyman 6:37
Yeah, and so, but this will be coming out after that, so it'll be available and we'll have a link. We'll put a link in the shadows for people to look at your book and to hopefully buy it. And I've seen it already. I mean, the PDF, and it's really nice and just really, really clear. I think the way you organized it, it's really, like you said, useful for yoga teachers as a reference. And the pictures are amazing. I mean, I think, is it your brother who's a photographer, because it just seemed...
Finlay Wilson 7:02
Yeah, so I do a lot of work with my twin brother. So this is our third yoga book that we've created. So together, we do a lot of photographs, and then, like, I'm also known, like my side hustle is, like doing yoga and a kilt in like, the wilds of Scotland. So we do a lot of that, but we do work together a fair amount. He does also a lot of the photography for our not for profit. And so even if you go onto the website for that, you'll see his handiwork.
Jivana Heyman 7:29
Yeah, it's great. I mean, that's how I found you. I think most people might know you that way because you're just kind of famous in yoga.
Finlay Wilson 7:36
It's more of like an infamy at this point.
Jivana Heyman 7:38
[laughs] Well, I don't know. I mean, I was thinking about that earlier today, about how getting attention is maybe so important. Like, it's so strange how social media is. I mean, it makes sense you have to do something.
Finlay Wilson 7:54
It has allowed me to have conversations about yoga and well-being with people that never would have had that conversation. And that's been really great, and especially, so in my country there are obviously yoga teachers, but the platform I have is quite unique in that I'm on TV fairly regularly. I'm talking about these things. There will be TV appearances talking about chair yoga. That doesn't happen. So I feel like I'm in a really privileged place to actually use that platform to say, well, actually, now that I've got your attention, can we focus on this thing please?
Jivana Heyman 8:28
I mean, I really appreciate that. You know, actually, well, there's a few things about you I appreciate. That's one of them. Because, I mean, there's a lot of yoga teachers out there who just get that attention and they just use it to teach kind of their regular, whatever, asana classes that don't seem particularly sensitive to the needs of real people, which is what I feel like you're doing, and what I've always been interested in, you know, serving marginalized populations, people who may not see themselves reflected in that mainstream yoga. And so you have that. I also just appreciate how out you are. I just want to say, like, that's always been really touching to me. I think there's a lot of queer yoga teachers, but I don't know how many are really that out about it, and you're just so out there.
Finlay Wilson 9:14
It's a conversation that we've been having. The people who decide who goes into secondary schools to deliver services was talking and totally, like, jumbled up what LGBTQ+ was and just chose whatever alphabet letter she felt like choosing. And she was talking about how she didn't think that there was any need for that type of representation or specific sessions for these groups of people. But she did a sensitivity training and suddenly realized that actually there is a need for that. And so, like, I get to step in another privileged place where I can actually go into these places and be an adult role model for, like, what a healthy LGBT relationship looks like, but also one where you are accepting who you are. And I think as a teenager to see that, I certainly never saw that. It was certainly not a conversation, and we're about to start a project, and one of the stipulations was that there were people at the helm of the project that were LGBTQ+. I was just like, I'm a perfect person. Like, even my leggings are rainbow. What more do you need?
Jivana Heyman 10:31
Yes, I love your rainbow leggings. But I mean, anyway, it just means a lot to me. Like I said, because you would think within the yoga world that it would just be fine, like, no big deal to be out but...
Finlay Wilson 10:42
And you say that. So, like, I, for a while, had a booking agent, and I remember her saying to me, who also, I mean, you know, she was a queer female living in America, working in the yoga scene, and she said, you would be so much more popular and so much more booked if you were straight. And to hear that is horrible.
Jivana Heyman 11:01
It's horrible, but, I mean, but I think it's true. And that's why I just want to say how much I appreciate you, because it means a lot to me. And I just, I think that other yoga teachers, maybe they're just straight, I don't know, but I think there are other queer teachers out there who just don't put it out. Like, you know, just not as out as you are, and especially people who have a platform like you do. I mean, you do get attention.
Finlay Wilson 11:23
I mean, not all good. I do also feel like I've had to carve out my space, but also defend that space, a little bit.
Jivana Heyman 11:32
Yeah, yeah, it's so sweet. And also, I mean, especially because I'm older, so I think quite a bit older than you, and it's just, you know, it's been a long journey for me, and I just feel like, I think that's the piece that maybe I was most interested in and most excited about when I saw you and got to know you. And, of course, the chair yoga thing too, that was just amazing to me. Especially because you physically, can do so much more. Most of the stuff you share is quite physically, I don't know what, like intense, and yet, I know you also have the chair, so I think it's exciting that you can do both.
Finlay Wilson 12:07
It's an interest. It is a conversation. My Instagram has always been a journal of my own practice and I always say to people like, this isn't what I teach. Like, if you come to my classes, the majority of them are beginner classes. And one of my pet peeves, when people say it's a beginner's class and it's handstands and splits. I'm like, excuse me, you've got no business doing that. I want to lie on the floor for half an hour and roll around. Thank you. And so it's trying to show that the facets of a yoga teacher, which is like, whether it's anatomical knowledge or adaptability is actually quite challenging to show on such a visual medium, because I will say people are less interested if I'm showing them how to modify for injury or how to adapt. People are interested in the fancy the extreme.
Jivana Heyman 12:59
Tell me about it! (Yeah, sadly.) That's my issue. I know. I mean, I've kind of done the opposite. I've been teaching for so long before Instagram even happened, so I was already just focused on it as, like a teaching tool. And so I only show what I teach. I don't really show my practice, actually, which has been interesting, but I've been trying to find a way to do that, just to share this other side, you know, and it's been fun. Maybe I remixed one of your reels that might have been how I...(You did, you did.) Yeah, that's how we got to know each other. But I have another question. I was reading in your book, you share about your journey and that you had some injuries or physical issues happening when you were younger. And I just wonder if you could talk about that? That's part of my question, also. Like, is that what inspired you to teach chair yoga and all that was it just your students, the people who showed up?
Finlay Wilson 13:53
It's a bit of both. So, the early years of yoga, like I was not, I guess what you would consider like a yoga person, like, I played lacrosse for my university. But before that, I was not necessarily, like, physically that active as, like a young person. But then I kind of got to the point that my both of my legs kind of stopped working. I couldn't I couldn't bend my left leg. I was having lots of issues with the bones and with the joints, and so I had to have two different surgical procedures on my legs, and the left leg caused a lot of nerve damage. The right side caused, like, a significant amount of muscle wastage. And because they were maybe, like, six months apart, my recovery period was so extended, and for some of that time, I was on crutches and mobility aids and in a wheelchair in a town that was like...so like, in Scotland, if you're in America, a historic town for you guys is not the same as a historic town for us. You're talking like those streets are put in in 1134 and it's cobbles, and they were not designed for wheelchairs. They were barely designed for vehicles. So I couldn't get anywhere. It was awful. Anyway. So the first yoga class that I went to is what made the impression for me. So, my personality probably coming through already. I showed up 45 minutes early for the class because I wanted to speak to the teacher. I'd never done yoga before. I'd never considered doing yoga before. This is pre YouTube, pre social media. This is back when, like, Myspace was, like, really in and exciting. And I didn't have anything to look at, to see. So I went along to this class that was just described as yoga. It turned out to be Ashtanga Yoga and I said, I can't stand up. I'm on crutches. I can't do any standing work. And the teacher scoffed and went, ugh, but we're doing standing poses. And so her reaction, my first interaction with the yoga world was one of a lack of empathy. And then when I started attending those classes, while everyone else was doing Sun Salutations and standing work at the start of an Ashtanga series, I was just told to sit down, and I just had to watch everybody, and I got to join in from the seated stuff. So there was no adaptation, there was no consideration of injury. But what there was a lot of, is once we got into seated poses, a lot of shoving to push me deeper into things which then caused spinal damage in my lower back. Yeah, so.
Jivana Heyman 16:19
But you went back? You kept going? (I had nothing else.) But you enjoyed it?
Finlay Wilson 16:26
No, enjoy is a strong word. I'm a very stubborn personality. Like, I'll be damned! So I went back and I started going along. I'm quite analytical. So I started taking along a notebook, and I would just write down the things that worked well for me and just kind of sketch things out. And then I started doing the things that I could do at home. So I only went to classes for maybe, like nine months, and then, like, once a week as well, so not exactly often. And then I started doing stuff by myself at home, and I started building up, like, smaller sequences. But it was a good few years before I could, like weight bear, like fully on that left leg again. But by that time, I started having these really, like, out of control, debilitating spasms from my lower back, which I'm still afflicted with to this day.
Jivana Heyman 17:15
That was caused by the teacher?
Finlay Wilson 17:18
Potentially. So there was damage there already that was exacerbated by the practice. So, how that informs my practice now, like, if I'm using, like, any sort of hands on adjustment, they're never forceful. They're more of a suggestion. It's like tapping this area to be like, "This area here, can that move forward." It's an invitation rather than a shove, and I certainly don't sit on anyone. It's that sort of thing, but it was so normal, and like in the UK at that time, Ashtanga was the dominant force. It was like, at that time, it was like, Ashtanga and Iyengar fighting each other for dominance in the UK. Flow hadn't come in yet. Nobody knew who she was. [Jivana laughs] And it took a little bit of time before that happened, but there certainly wasn't any adaptive practices, and there was certainly no accommodation for injuries or anybody that had any physical issue of any kind.
Jivana Heyman 18:20
When was that, about?
Finlay Wilson 18:24
That might be like, 2004, 2005. So I knew that around about that time that, if I was going to get into teaching, that that was an ethic that I wanted, even though I was still very strongly in the Ashtanga world.
Jivana Heyman 18:43
Wow. And, you know, maybe while we're going down that memory lane. In this series, I've been asking everyone to share something, some story or, I mean, you're kind of already did, but I don't know if there's some other story or example that you'd like to share, or some teaching that stays with you now.
Finlay Wilson 18:59
So, I mean, obviously...like, so I initially was teaching Ashtanga, and realized, like, through, like, the Mysore style, like, if taught, quite strictly, like, once you get to a pose you can't do, your kind of like, duck out and, you know, do your finishing series and go home. So I realized very quickly, with a lot of the people that I was teaching, that was not something that they would be able to do. So I started doing a lot of my own research into different sequences. I started moving into more of like a Hatha frame of reference. And then it was a couple of years into having my studio when I'm seeing more people and more regularly, like, I was still trying to maintain an Ashtanga class at least once a week, and it just got to the point I was like, this isn't working. I'm forcing this class on people, and this is not what these people are looking for. It's not a sequence that is going to work for their bodies. And the first time I went to a Forrest yoga class, I remember just sitting on the floor in baddha konasana, which from the first thing you do in a class, I was like, oh my gosh, my little legs were shaking. And I remember Ana Forrest just looking at me and just saying, like, why are you trying so hard? And I was brought up against this archetype that I didn't realize was front and center, which was that it was just fighting the whole time. Every pose was a fight for five breaths, and actually to be still enough to actually go inside and ask, "How do I feel right now?, was a profound moment. And honestly, it was as if I had, up until that moment, I thought that I was like, amazing at doing a yoga practice, but all I had done was squeeze myself into this little glass jar. And at that moment, I felt like she shattered that jar and said, you have so much more to go. And I knew then that I was like, right? I'm still at the baby stage. There's a lot more to this. And I had never really had that invitation. I had felt that the practice of detachment had actually become one of dissociation, and I was not in my body at all. And it changed how I practice.
Jivana Heyman 21:17
So you had been practicing for a while at that point, and so you're saying that you were still dissociating in your practice, even though you've been doing it for a while?
Finlay Wilson 21:25
Yeah, in my practice, though, I don't really use the practice of drishti, because I feel like I weaponized it against myself, where I was always using an external focus to not feel my body. I was always trying to go for austerity. I was using the language of the Yoga Sutras in a weaponized form that I had to, like, burn myself with this purification fire through injury and work through it, and that I would become pure, and that became very damaging. And so to be able to strip that back and go, actually, I think there's another way of interpreting this, I had to take the sense of detachment and replace it with dis-attachment and actually go, I can step back from this and still be empathetic. And I think I spent a long time being in this place of deliberately feeling nothing, even if there was pain, and that was like a real shift in my practice, to kind of move into that embodied practice.
Jivana Heyman 22:27
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, I'm so much in the world of Accessible Yoga that there's not a lot of people that I talked to that had have that experience of the intense physical practice, and yet, the few that I know kind of have shared a similar thing, that, you know, it can be weaponized, like you say, that we can take these teachings and kind of make them into whatever we want. You know, you can use them against yourself.
Finlay Wilson 22:52
They can also be competitive. And it's that essence, almost like I remember, like, whenever I would, like, hang out with other Ashtanga people, like, you'd hear people be like, "Oh, well, what pose are you up to in the series?" And it's like, hang on. Are we really having this conversation? Or like, have you had your meniscus surgery yet? And I'm like, hang on. Do we not notice how ridiculous it is that we're having to talk about how this practice has damaged our knee joints beyond repair? Yeah. And looking back, I'm like, wow. I was like, I was so in it that when somebody pointed it out, it was like a spell being lifted.
Jivana Heyman 23:29
That's amazing. Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that, and I think that message is really beautiful, and can support a lot of other people that are maybe still in that world, and actually not even just in that world, but I think in in the world of yoga as asana, I think there's still a bit of that, just the competition and the sense of yoga as exercise. I mean, exercise is amazing, but it's just, I think there's a different way with yoga, and sometimes it's hard to share that in the gym setting. Or do you know what I mean?
Finlay Wilson 23:59
This is a conversation that I will no doubt have in the next couple of weeks with my trainees, and it's something that I use in my classes, and it's drawn from the Yoga Sutras. There is a part that says, like through pranayama, the veil is lifted, but to get to that point, people need to be in their body and comfortable enough to pursue pranayama to observe the state. And usually I like to use asana to kind of pave the way, so that when I say we're going to sit still and do pranayama for 10 minutes, that they are receptive to that. And so I like to use asana to pave the way to that. And I've had this with, especially, I teach a class for amputees and I remember week one, I got into the classroom, like, we don't like this yoga stuff, like, arms folded, I'm not doing this. And I was like, right, okay. And so I knew at that moment, like, if I go with 10 minutes of alternate nostril breathing, people are gonna leave. And it took a while to encourage them to go, actually, your body is a safe place, and we're going to use asana to explore that we're going to explore through language and how I'm encouraging you to choose variation about how you can now start to relate with your body. And then, once you start to trust that you can use pranayama, and then the stuff that happens once the veil is lifted, I think you're going to be in a really good place. And so I've been using that for years as a way to try and encourage people into practice so it's not too much too soon. So, since there are some practices that maybe are like, focused so much on the physical that is exercise, I think sometimes it can be useful just to very slightly get people in.
Jivana Heyman 25:47
I mean, exactly. Asana is amazing, and the physicality of yoga is probably one of the most important things that it has. You know, that it's like an embodied practice. So it's not just meditating, sitting in silence, right? Like we can use our bodies, but we can get lost there too. And I love that emphasis on that. That's a beautiful sutra. And you know the section right before when Patanjali is talking about asana, and he talks about how to do it, and he says that, you know, "By working with the natural restlessness of the mind, by meditating on the infinite, posture is mastered," which I think that's the teaching I feel like is missing sometimes in asana instruction. We talk about steady, comfortable pose, but then when he's getting into this, like meditating on the infinite, I feel like that helps to bring the mind back into the practice of asana, which is maybe what's not there, you know, awareness.
Finlay Wilson 26:41
And this is something that like, while the book that I've done is encouraging people to practice, I have also mentioned about, essentially, more of a meditation for beginners, like to consider the infinite is obviously a severe challenge, even if somebody is not quite at the level of doing pranayama. But by working an intention that starts with the physical, and over time becomes increasingly subtle, that person can start to achieve more meditative states. So I tend to graduate to meditation.
Jivana Heyman 27:15
But I guess what I was saying is like just bringing the mind in, so it could be through, yeah, like an intention brings in your mind, or you mentioned drishti, but there's so many things. Some people say you have to focus on the breath, but you don't. Like that doesn't work for a lot of people with anxiety and stuff. So focusing on sensation, or whatever it is, just bringing the mind into the practice, you know, I think helps a lot. I was just wanting to go talk a bit about your work, because, I mean, it's pretty remarkable what you've had that space and you've been able to support those classes for so long. I just wonder if you have any advice for people. I mean, it might be different there in Scotland than in the US. I don't know. I mean, we have listeners all over the world actually, but I don't know, like, how you've done it? Like, really, it's pretty incredible.
Finlay Wilson 27:58
So my city is not very big. I mean, it's like 120,000 people, so it's not a huge population. Maybe calling it a city is a bit of a stretch. But when I got here, there was like, maybe one other yoga studio. And when I arrived, it was made very clear that I was not welcome there. And I was then left with, like, right, if I want to have a space here, I am going to have to create it myself. And I'm very much of the personality that that's what I will do if I have to do it. It's not the first time I've had to do that. And I feel like that part of like, queer upbringing is like, if there's not a space for me, I'm just going to have to create it for myself. (I can totally relate to that.) So that's what I did. And I was like, right, well, if there's no safe space for me, then I will make a safe space for myself. And so I started out really small, and I thought, honestly, I was so deluded back then. I had like a mailing list of like 20 people. And I was like, oh, she booked. She busy! And I thought, I'm gonna open a yoga studio for my like 20 people without thinking that maybe none of them would actually come. And so there was this building kind of nearby, where I lived, a big old church building with stained glass windows that was in disrepair. It was scheduled for demolition to be turned into apartments, and I went in because I was just having a look, and I was like, huh, this place is gigantic. This would be lovely. That's a lot of work. And I left, and I was like, forgot about it. And then, like, that night, I just felt compelled. I was like, right, I think I could do this, but it's going to be a lot of work. And it was a lot of work. And I started doing that in like, the recession, like the big financial recession, when no one was giving anyone money. So I was like, right, I'm just gonna have to make this work. Managed to persuade the bank to give me, like, a small amount of money. But very early on, I thought, right, well, I know what I want this to do. I do aspire for this to be something for the community. So I knew that I wanted to register as a charity. So here it's a charity, in America it would be like a not for profit. You do not immediately get a huge amount of support, like you don't immediately get donors.
Finlay Wilson 30:12
So my aim was to create, like, a socio-economic model where people would come to class and that would allow us to, like, pay for the rent and the light and the heating and the teachers, and if there was some left over, we'd be able to reinvest that in community projects. So from the start, I was running kids projects. So I started teaching after school classes for kids and working with kids with additional support needs. And so I was doing that and working in schools. And over the course of time, it's hard to necessarily differentiate when, our studio got busier, the busier the studio gets, the more we're able to put money aside, the more we're able to grow these projects. And so I then knew that our area is known for both financial deprivation but also a real inequality to access to, like prenatal and postnatal services, despite us having, like a universal healthcare. So there's still like this disparity in like who is accessing what and what their financial background is. So I wanted to create a universal free program. So now, how that looks is that we have, every day of the week, we have a free after school kids program where they get to come along and do a class for 45 minutes. We have now three free prenatal classes, one where they can bring a partner if they wish. And we also offer those online. So that's free of charge no matter where somebody is in the world. So that lets us expand our geographic reach. We do two free postnatal classes. Again, those are also online. We do five chair yoga. No, is it six chair yoga classes a week? And as part of that, they get a an assessment and two treatments with a physiotherapist, but also free sessions with our sports therapists. And I've been able to fundraise to create this resource. So by coming to chair yoga, we can do the diagnostic work of going, "This is your injury. Here are some exercises that will help. Please reintegrate back into the chair yoga class for maintenance, and we're going to help you through that. And if you need to see the sports therapist, then we will also organize that."
Finlay Wilson 32:21
Since we started doing that, I've then been able to show the proof of concept and now we have a full time staff member and two part time members, and we go around community centers, care homes, inpatient services, hospitals, drug and alcohol services. We're doing work in high schools, primary schools, nurseries, basically anywhere. We work with different other organizations, and not for profits. So we're working with Scottish Autism, we're working with mental health charities, and we are offering free sessions, as well as creating free digital resources that people can go to when our class is finished. So if we do a block, they can then access free digital services that allow them to continue to do and access yoga even if we're no longer there. So we're trying to create, I said it in a video, just off the cuff while I was doing some fundraising, and I said that well-being is a human right, and I stand by that. And so my aim is, even though I'm in Scotland, I would love if people looked at what we were doing and went, "Well, how is he doing that?" Like I'm not. I wouldn't say I'm particularly talented. I'm not the best writer at fundraising, at fundraising applications. I'm not the best thinker of projects. But with some will and some drive, there is a way that you can do this and still make sure that the staff are properly remunerated, and that's what I see is my duty is to do that, to make sure that our team is looked after while they do all this work. So in a nutshell, that's what we do, as well as running, like, maybe I think it's like 50 classes in our studio a week.
Jivana Heyman 34:00
Wow. Okay, that's amazing. I just have a question about that, regarding the more accessible class, like the chair yoga and the ones that you're doing in the community. I'm just curious if you find, is it easier to go to those communities and teach them, you know, in in their place, like in the care home, or in the hospital or wherever, versus have them come to you, because I think that's something that I mean, I've owned studios and managed studios for many years, and I finally not doing that, but I just found that was a tension there like that, you know, people often want to start Accessible Yoga or chair yoga classes in their studio, but it's just seems like it's not a welcoming environment.
Finlay Wilson 34:39
And it can be. So for us, I mean, we had to do a lot of work. So I was working with an amputee charity who were coming to our space, but we had already shown them that our space was accessible, like we know of other places that are running this, but if there's like, a flight of stairs, then straight away you have already stopped a significant demographic who may need that class from being able to attend that class. So the space being suitable is a is important. I recently just did like our largest capital fund to fully refurbish our like disabled access washrooms, so that they are fit for purpose, because our buildings very old. It's from 1888 and it severely needed upgrading. And so we just finished that project, and that has shown people, and we didn't just want to make it basic, like they're gorgeous, if you ever visit, come and visit our toilets, they're stunning!
Jivana Heyman 34:39
Well, that is amazing. I only lead my Accessible Yoga Training in disabled studios. And so I'm constantly looking around the world, and it's hard to find, especially in places like that where it's older.
Finlay Wilson 35:47
So we're quite fortunate in that our space, like right at our front door, it's a really big old front door, and there's a drop curb, so we know that people can access, it's ground level all the way through to our therapy rooms, to our washrooms. There's no need for like, anything else in that regard. So, we're really fortunate with that, but space is a big consideration. We also offer our services, our chair yoga services, wherever we go, free at the point of access. Now, we've had to do work to make sure that we can do that, but the financial barrier, if somebody is thinking, I'm not sure if this space is for me, and then there's a cost, that cost actually comes with a certain amount of risk for that person, because then what if they don't like it? What if they don't feel welcome? So, like, we've taken the cost barrier away as well, and especially in America, like, I'm not sure what your state welfare system is like, but judging from the news, it's not going to be great. So for us, like, even if the stuff is getting rolled back here, that actually lights a fire under me to provide better provisions. So if someone scales back a service, I see a gap in the service, and I try and make sure that we can try and provide some relief in that regard. So when we work in care settings, then we have got an audience that are quite receptive, but you still have to do a fair amount of encouraging to say, like, "I think this would be really great for you. Do you want to try it? We can do a shorter session today." So we're very community led in what we do. Like, we're asking people what their energy levels are like for each session. We're asking if there are any particular injuries for that day that maybe will be affecting their practice more than a usual day. And all of that enables the person to have agency and a voice to be met where they're at.
Finlay Wilson 37:37
There's no point in me going in and saying, "This is the class we're doing today, and you better like it." But we've come up against that attitude so much when we're out there, when we go to a community center that said our last teacher was verbally abusive and like, saying things. Like, we've had other teachers that we've met on the road equate, like, weakness, physically, with homosexuality, and we're like, hang on, how is this still happening? What is going on? And so, we all work in a way that we would describe as like, trauma-informed. We're trying to be led by what the community want, rather than what the teacher wants, and that is the ethic that I think people can clearly see pervades our work, and we use that in a lot of our communication as well. We're trying to make sure that that's what people see from our studio to the point that our studio classes for chair are fully booked every single week. (That's amazing.) And when we're out in the community, that we're getting asked more and more for more chair classes these days. It's been quite astounding, the demand, and to go to people's space like around our city is very rural, and sometimes you could go like 20-30, miles, and there isn't another town, which means it's unlikely that that town is going to have a yoga teacher, especially a yoga teacher that maybe is going to be trained in chair yoga. So one of our next projects that I've called like, the yoga caravan, is that we're going to be like driving to these places to do chair yoga workshops and then leaving both video resources and copies of the books in community centers and libraries free of charge, like we're going to try and buy a stack of them and just start giving them to people and saying, "Here you go. There's a QR code in here. We've recorded the sessions. Have a look. Do them for free, and if you ever make it to our city, come and see us." But I think it's really important that people can access a service where they are. Really important.
Jivana Heyman 39:42
Yeah. I love that. I love giving away the books. I mean, I get very excited when I see my book or one of my books in the library, because it's like, in the library, it's like, a free resource, so people can just go and find it. And there's also, libraries are great place for...
Finlay Wilson 39:54
Have you ever asked them how many times it's been taken out? Because you can ask them.
Jivana Heyman 39:57
I'm afraid. I mean, I'm afraid to ask. I don't want to have my delicate ego...(That's the first thing I would ask!) [laughs] I'm just happy it was there. I was shocked that it's in my local library here, actually, the two of them, they had two of my books, which was really surprising.
Finlay Wilson 40:12
You're going to have more purchases because both of your books are on my reading list for my teacher training.
Jivana Heyman 40:17
Okay, good. Well, I have three. So you could have all three of them. I mean, my third book maybe isn't known as much as yoga revolution. It's about philosophy. So if that's interesting, you know. (I'll have to update my reading list!) Yeah. I assume then in your basic trainings, you're training all your teachers and chair yoga.
Finlay Wilson 40:38
I have a really, really good and rambunctious relationship with a chair class that I do for amputees. Like, we have a really good relationship. They make fun of me all the time, and they want me to kind of be the same with them. And so, like, I get all of my teacher trainees to, like, sit in on that class. And so during the teacher training, like, it's either that the class would be canceled while I'm doing teacher training, or they get to do the class, and then all of my trainees are in the class with them, and so they do that, and they usually, like, are hilarious, just making jokes all the time. And it's showing them that, I think, I don't know if sometimes people think that chair yoga is sometimes this somber experience and everybody's really upset. (It's like the opposite.) It's so not the case!
Jivana Heyman 41:27
No. Oh my god. I mean, every chair yoga class I can imagine that I've ever had, has been the opposite. Just way more social. I think there's something about it. There isn't the somberness that you get or like, the seriousness in a mat class.
Finlay Wilson 41:42
So this is the other thing. Like, so my husband, like, runs the studio with me, and I stole him from another yoga studio. But it was very corporate. It was very like, we do flow and, like we're fully booked, and we think you'll never get out of this membership unless you sign a deal with a devil. And I stole him. And the first day he was in our studio, he was like, people are talking to each other! And I was like, yeah, because they're human and they're meant to and he's like, some of them talk to each other during class. I was like, yeah, and that's totally fine. And so, like, we we provide, like, free tea, coffee and water for everybody. So we encourage people, like, when they come in, like, go to the kitchen. It's open to everyone. Grab a free cup of tea. And so when you come to our studio, like, you will notice, especially in the chair yoga classes, people are meeting up and are chatting. We've got, like, our chair yoga carpool, where people are giving each other lift. It's really lovely.
Jivana Heyman 42:42
It is, I mean, I have to say that's the part people really don't get about it, in so many ways. First of all, it might be the most important part of the class for them, too, is that social piece, you know, because a lot of...
Finlay Wilson 42:54
There's social isolation. Since the pandemic, it's been a real thing for people, and actually, like, we're seeing, like, we've got quite a few of like, our demographic for some of our chair classes as a little bit more senior for some of our time slots, and some of the younger people that come to the classes are inspired by the efforts of these folks. And we see, like, a really nice intergenerational mixing that I don't see as much in some of our other classes. There's more communication. It's quite lovely to see that this community has kind of like sprung up within our community.
Jivana Heyman 43:34
Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, I love that. And I think that's the key to all these classes, actually, is to create that feeling of connection. I mean, that's yoga too. It's ironic. People think of yoga as this, like, very inner experience, but my experience of that has been the opposite, that is much more of social connection, about seeing yourself and others and actually being kind and caring for other people. And like you said, I've seen the most beautiful things happening between students, how they care for each other. They call each other if they're not there, like, "Are you okay? Why aren't you in class?" You know, I couldn't do that.
Finlay Wilson 44:09
We had a really, really beautiful moment a couple of years ago. So our space, I mean, I'm not going to brag. Our Space is beautiful. It is beautiful. And some of our clients have actually been married in our building. (Wow.) So they've met at yoga, and they've gotten married at yoga. Now, before anybody who's listening goes like, oh, married in a yoga studio, you need to think that we have got seven meter high ceilings with gorgeous woodwork, stained glass windows all around and that with candles and a bit of music playing. Ah, I'd get married again!
Jivana Heyman 44:41
Yeah, yeah, that sounds perfect. Oh, my God, that's so nice. Actually. (If you ever want to visit!) I got married in a yoga studio, actually. So. (Oh, so you can relate!) It was an ashram, but it was, like, a really beautiful place. You know, it was like you said. But, yeah, that sounds amazing. Anyway. So anything else you want to share? I don't want to keep each other too long. I've loved talking to you. And I mean, I think what you're sharing is so important for yoga teachers all over the world to listen to and to be inspired by.
Finlay Wilson 45:10
I guess the only thing I want to add is, like, if there's anybody that is like, running a studio, like, yes, there is, like, an element of risk to take a chance financially on doing that, but I do see, as much as I don't encourage people to do things, like yoga teachers to like, work for free, because then we start to get into this whole exposure exploitation culture. If there is a way that you can use your proceeds to comfortably put on a session that will do wonders in your community, why aren't you? And if you can, that will create such a positive ripple, because the one thing, sadly for you and I, is that there is not the same level of...like we're not, I'm not getting invited to like yoga conferences to teach a chair yoga class. That's not going to happen. I don't see that happening. I'm not going to get invited to like the big yoga events to do these kind of things. But why not? Like, I feel like there should be a space for that, but I think that the studio culture has to change somewhat to account for that, if that makes sense.
Jivana Heyman 46:23
Yeah. And you're doing an amazing job. I mean, like, in all the ways that you described, I mean not only within the studio itself, but also by taking the programming outside. And I do know a few other places that I can think of around the world, but the very few, that have that commitment to service. And that's the other piece that you're basically doing service, which is really the heart of yoga, that the other piece that is lost, you know, community and service is like Karma Yoga, right, to be of service and connect with others. And it sounds like you're doing an amazing job. So thank you, on behalf of all your students and me. (Totally.) Yeah, all right. Well, thanks for being here with me and talking to me. I appreciate it. (Well, thank you!)
Jivana Heyman 47:08
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Jivana Heyman 48:20
Okay, welcome back everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:23
Hello, Jivana. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 48:25
I'm good, actually. I'm really good. How about you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:29
I'm also very good. I just listened to your episode with Finlay.
Jivana Heyman 48:32
Yeah, that was fun. I'm so glad that I got to talk to him. I've been kind of following his work for a while, and just always admire, mostly how out he is, like how out of the closet. Because, you know, for me as a queer person, I just really admire other queer yoga teachers who are really out about that and share their lives, because it's a little scary, you know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:55
Absolutely, especially in this time. And it sounds like Finlay's from a rural area, and he had to overcome some obstacles to create his community there.
Jivana Heyman 49:05
Yeah, I know that was great. I loved hearing about that and the way he shared about his journey. I didn't know really much about him. I mean, he and I have messaged for years, but never really had, like, a conversation like this before. So I just really am so grateful that he spoke with me, and that we've kind of always bonded around chair yoga and accessibility. It just made me laugh, because he doesn't show a lot of it on, like, on Instagram, he's known for really, like, intense physical stuff. And you know, I knew this side of him, when I was like, I knew he was coming out with his book, and I was just like, it just kind of makes me laugh. But I think it's great, you know, for people who do that kind of work to also teach chair yoga is wonderful. His book is great. It's called Adapting Chair Yoga for Every Body. We can put a link in the show notes so that people can order it. It's out now. It's really just a great kind of manual resource with lots of photos. I think his twin brother is the photographer who does all his work. They're really clear and nice descriptions of practices. Yeah, it was fun.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:09
It's so true though. Like, you wouldn't necessarily from his Instagram account, Kilted Yogi, like you wouldn't sense that he has this rich life that's really centered on service.
Jivana Heyman 50:21
Right? Like the whole studio, and the work they do sounds incredible. I mean, it's like my dream. It sounds like my dream yoga studio, you know, where it's like a nonprofit totally dedicated to supporting the community, offering classes, not only offering chair yoga and other kinds of adapted practice there, but also they take it out into the community, and that's so incredible. I know there's a bunch of places like that in the US too, but I always admire that, because it can be hard to make it work. It's like, really hard, I think, for yoga teachers to know how to navigate that kind of a business model. I mean, it's just hard for us to navigate any business model, because usually we're just yoga teachers. But, you know, to make a nonprofit that's really centered on community function the way he has, is really impressive. So I'm very grateful and really admire what he did. And I was so happy to hear him share that, and also his story. Like, it was great to hear about working with Ana Forrest, his teacher, that was really interesting, and his challenges when he was younger, being disabled, when he had a bunch of challenges going on and how yoga supported him. I thought it was really amazing.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:27
Yeah, there was that pivotal moment where she asks him, like, why are you working so hard? (Yeah.) And I think, like, that's a that's probably a little thread that everyone can ask themselves in yoga class, and also when they're trying to, like, practice their yoga off the mat.
Jivana Heyman 51:44
Yeah, what a great question for all of us. I'm gonna think about that today when I'm doing my asanas. Why am I working so hard? Maybe I'll just lay in shavasana instead. Just rest.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:56
That sounds dreamy.
Jivana Heyman 51:59
Literally. (Highly recommend.) Yeah. Why am I working so hard?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:06
He had that lightning bolt of insight, too, at the very end I was sort of left with. It's kind of like, you know, if there's a way that you can use your time or proceeds to comfortably put forward a session that would like really impact your community, why aren't you? That's also just a great question to ask teachers, and I'm glad that he addressed that. It's not as though, it's not meaning that every yoga teacher needs to work for free. That's not what that's about. But it's sort of like, if you can make a difference in some way, like, yeah, why aren't you?
Jivana Heyman 52:38
Yeah, I love that too, because I think service has been kind of, what's the word? I hate to say this, but it's almost like it's been usurped by capitalism. So we think of like, in the context of yoga studios, often service means like you work for free at the front desk, and then you get to take yoga classes. And that's really more of like a trade, you know, work/trade thing. That's not what service or Karma Yoga really is. Karma Yoga is a state of mind. It's really the goal of all of our practice is Karma Yoga. So I love that question too. It's like, whatever energy we find that we build up in our practice, and that's what we're doing, is we're building energy and prana, we then take it and use it to serve others. That's what I think is meant to happen. But I think that concept is often lost.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:03
That's a beautiful way of thinking about it, because I'm imagining like I could just feel this sort of like replenishment that comes because it also then takes into account your own self care in this process. You know, it's not necessarily living life where you're so depleted by over giving to people that you become resentful or you just don't have energy to take care of you first. It's a cycle.
Jivana Heyman 53:52
Yeah. I mean, the energy fills you up as well. And actually in the traditional teachings around karma yoga, the idea is that through giving, you receive. So it's through the gift of giving that you actually end up filling yourself. You get more back, in a sense, than what you give away. And I found that to be true. I mean, I think it's hard. It's hard because our egos are so closely aligned, you know, with everything that we do, it's hard to know when it's really service, but I think it comes out of love. To me, service and Karma Yoga is so directly related to Bhakti Yoga and our devotional practices. And I think it's hard to give unless you really feel love and care for the thing or the people that you're giving to. So I feel like, for most people, we can think of service, you know, around our family or close relations, and we can care for them. Like, you might care for your children or for your partner in a way that it just naturally flows from love. It's not like you don't expect anything back, even. It can fill you up to do that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:01
Absolutely. It's also, you know, I've been playing with the idea of service, you know, I think it gives back to you, but maybe it's not always convenient, right? Like, being part of a community means, like, you know, you're sharing an effort with someone, but also, like, again, you're doing that with that state of mind of love, like, oh, this may not be convenient for me, but I'm going to do this for this person, because I love them and it's needed, and I can.
Jivana Heyman 55:29
Yeah, that's hard. It's hard when it's not convenient. [laughs] But you know, sometimes it's like being courageous and brave and stepping out of the comfort zone. It doesn't mean that it's gonna exhaust you, but it's just like it's an area of growth. I think that's always worth exploring, but it's interesting to when you say that, when he talked about, you know that his teacher saying, why are you pushing so hard? Because I think both are true, that, like, yes, in yoga, we don't need...I think, he also talks about how discipline is overused. We have a tendency, like, we beat ourselves up and push really, really hard. And I guess that's what she was responding to, his teacher. But I also think that we do need discipline to practice. There has to be self discipline. And I feel like maybe that's the key, is like, one thing is a discipline that's externally enforced, and the other is self discipline that comes out of true passion for something. And I think that is essential for a yoga practice. There has to be the self discipline to do it and to care enough to do it. But we don't need to beat ourselves up or let the external beat us up, but we have to find a love for the thing and then, I think, we need to dedicate the results to something. So I think it's like we use the self discipline to build our practice, to build energy, and then through Karma Yoga we dedicate our energy and our actions to those we love, which is Bhakti yoga.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:07
Thanks for that. Yeah, that's beautiful. And you two, also kind of discussed one of your favorite topics, the Yoga Sutras.
Jivana Heyman 57:16
Yeah, yeah. What was he saying? It was about pranayama.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:20
Yeah, the beautiful sutra.
Jivana Heyman 57:26
Well, the translation I go to, is that, you know, pranayama removes the veil over the inner light. But, you know, every translation is that, the one he was talking about? (Yeah, that's exactly right, the veil is lifted.) The veil is lifted as a result. So there's a section in chapter two, or book two of the Yoga Sutras, where Patanjali goes through the eight limbs and talks about each aspect of the eight limbs of yoga, and he talks about asana and then pranayama. And I think that's what Finlay was talking about, that it's important to have asana, to be grounded in asana, before doing pranayama. Is that?
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:05
Yeah, exactly. He was saying that he likes to use asana, sort of like the doorway, to prepare everyone to maybe be a little bit more embodied before they experience pranayama. It seems like his students are more receptive to that subtler practice once they worked with their body in some capacity.
Jivana Heyman 58:24
Yeah, I mean, I think that's very true and that's interesting. In the Iyengar tradition, which I only know a little bit about, but Iyengar is very famous for his intense asana practice, very complicated, that's what he said. He said, you have to be firmly grounded in asana before you can practice pranayama. And I think he was, you know, following the eight limbs himself in that way. The thing is, I guess, I just wonder sometimes what it means to be firmly grounded in asana, because I think sometimes we get confused and think that it's about being able to do these very intense physical poses. And I don't think that's true. And I think there's a difference between being in your body and being able to do very complicated physical poses. I would just differentiate that. Do you know what I'm saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:15
Absolutely, absolutely. And when I say asana, I feel like it could be like the simplest posture that kind of just allows you to breathe and be in your body and recognize that you have a body and that you're in it, if that's available to you.
Jivana Heyman 59:28
Right, and I know that's what Finlay meant too, because here he just has a book out on chair yoga. So obviously he has an understanding for accessibility and the importance of simplicity and be able to practice in a chair, which, you know, generally, chair yoga is a more, I think, refined practice, because you actually simplify asana. And, yeah, I think the way that Patanjali was talking about asana is also different than what we think of. We're coming at it today with our, you know, kind of contemporary view of and perception of what yoga is. But I think Patanjali, who was writing maybe 16, 1700 years ago, definitely was thinking about asana in a different way than we are today. Most of the asanas that we talk about weren't even maybe being practiced back then. You know, there were some physical practices going on, but mostly it was about a seated posture. So I think Patanjali, when he talks about asana and the eight limbs of yoga, he's really talking about what Finlay was saying, I think, about being able to sit comfortably, so that you could then do the more subtle practices, you know of pranayama, pratyahara (sense withdrawal), and then meditation, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:44
Yeah. And also, well, this reminds me that you have a course launching soon, Accessible Pranayama and Meditation: Exploring the Eight Limbs of Yoga. And I'd love to hear more about the course and what inspired this course, because it's bridging together, using the eight limbs is kind of as a springboard to explore pranayama meditation, more deeply.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:07
Yeah, actually, it's part of what we're talking about already, is my inspiration. And then I feel like there's this misunderstanding in contemporary yoga practice that you have to do these complex asanas, that that's what we do, and they're beautiful. And I don't mean to criticize people that can do that. I wish I could do it, but it doesn't really matter. That's not the point. I think, in the end, you can do a physically intense practice and have really incredibly powerful experiences. But also you can do a very, you know, adapted or gentle or subtle physical practice and have profound experiences. Because, you know, yoga is so much deeper, and that I feel like, as you mentioned when we started this conversation, I love the Sutras, and I think you said it, but I love talking about them, and I love studying them and teaching them. And I feel like, you know, I always want to teach pranayama and meditation, but I think the eight limbs gives this beautiful context in something that's very accessible and straightforward and practical and offering kind of this beautiful sequence of practices. You know, going from yoga ethics to physical posture to breathing and pranayama and working with the senses and then working with the mind in more and more subtle ways to get to know our true selves. And I love that. I think the eight limbs are so incredible. I I often hear teachers say, you know, you have to practice all eight limbs of yoga. That's the response I hear when I say, well, you know, yoga is not just this intense physical practice. They say, well, you have to practice all eight limbs. But then I wonder, like, well, do you? Like, do we? And how? How are people actually practicing all eight limbs? I really want to know, so I thought I could just maybe create a course where I share how I would and how I do practice and what that means to me, and also create a space for people to share that and to kind of go on a journey together through the eight limb. So it's eight sessions. Each session is on one of the limbs, and I'm excited to have a discussion to share. I'll have a presentation. We'll have a conversation and a practice trying to connect all of them to pranayama and meditation, because I think that's actually the way to practice them all, actually, is through that. I think that's where he's leading us to those more subtle limbs. So I kind of, I don't know if that's confusing. Is it? That there's, like, two themes? It's all eight limbs, but it's particularly those two.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:51
No, it's interesting, because I think with eight limbs, you feel a little bit like, and I know there's a very, like, intelligent progression, right? Like, because you always start with ethics. That's from which everything kind of comes from, right? If you're practicing ethics, you're really practicing yoga. But also, it can be confusing as a practitioner to be like, "Okay, so now that I've done asana, now I moved to pranayama, and then now I move to pratyahara." But sometimes it feels like things aren't necessarily in that order, so to speak, like it feels maybe more like a spiral than a line where things are kind of happening in tandem.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:26
Yeah, well, like with everything, it's both, I think. I think it's both things. I think that the eight limbs can be practiced sequentially, and they can also be practiced in a completely different way, which is that, I believe that each of the limbs is kind of an entire practice itself, and contains all of yoga within it. So I think that it's easy to use our kind of intellectual approach and think, oh, we have to go through these sequentially, and I'm happy to do that, and I often do that myself, and also recognize that these practices are way more profound and deeper than that. That it's not really just step by step, and that you can do any one and go really far. Which is why I say, like, if you love to do asana, people that do those complex physical poses, that could be enough. You can actually, you know, really get to know yourself through that practice. And that's beautiful. That's same with ethics or with any form of meditation, each one is also complete. So I don't know if that feels more confusing?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:40
No, I'm looking forward to the course, Jivana. I think it's much needed, and it's also a beautiful way to end the year. If you're looking at the calendar year like that. It'll be beautiful exploration.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:52
Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to share with people and to hear what they have to say. And I love to learn from our community. It's so great when we're in trainings. It's my favorite thing to do, honestly, is to be on these in person and online trainings. Online, it's incredible. Like right now, a program we have going on with the Accessible Yoga Training Online, it's like such an international community. They have such a diversity of experience, some really new and some who've been teaching for years, and just to feel everyone there together, supporting each other and sharing, you know, kind of their heartfelt desire to to know themselves and to support others as they're going through that journey to know themselves as yoga teachers, I think is really incredible. I just know that it's my favorite thing to do is to spend time with yoga teachers, mostly, but any yoga practitioner who is really dedicated to this, to working with themselves. And that's what we'll do. Like I said this, this course will include a lot of practice. I mean, each session will have an extended pranayama and meditation practice, because I think it's really great to talk about it, but really you have to do it as well. I hope lots of people come.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:03
Thank you so much, Jivana. I think we can leave it there.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:06
All right. Thank you, Deanna, and thanks again, Finlay for this conversation and for all the work you do. All right. Take care, everybody. (Bye, everyone.)
