Jivana Heyman 00:00:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. Thanks for being here. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, known today as Santa Barbara, California. And I wonder how you're doing? There's a lot going on in the world, it feels really chaotic right now. So, I hope you're doing okay, and I appreciate you being here for this conversation. It's actually a really great talk with Shanna Small. I love talking to her. I feel like we have a lot in common, honestly. She shares about the challenges of being involved with a traditional yoga lineage where there is abuse, and I have that experience as well. And then she also talks about her love of mantra, which I share, and sharing yoga philosophy with householders, with those of us that are out in the world. And I love that too, so it's just so many ways that I connected with this conversation and with Shanna and her work. I hope you'll enjoy it, and you can stay after. I have a conversation with Deanna and we get some listener questions. So thank you so much. I really appreciate when you call in or leave me a message. It means a lot to me. So all right, here's my conversation with Shanna Small.
Jivana Heyman 00:02:04
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Jivana Heyman 00:03:09
Hi everyone, welcome and hello to our special guest, Shanna Small. Hi! How are you? (Hi, everyone.) I wondered if you wanted to introduce yourself. I already said a few things about you before we started, but...
Shanna Small 00:03:23
Hey, everyone. I am Shanna Small. I have been in the yoga land for, like, 25 years or so, and I've had such a journey, a big old evolution, starting out as a hardcore Ashtangi, but then I had developed something in my sacrum that allowed me to open my mind honestly and really get deeper into the spiritual path. And then I was activated by George Floyd's death. And both of those things just changed me radically -- took me into accessibility, took me into social justice. Made me really rethink of what it means to live yoga and be yoga and walk yoga out in this world, just live and breathe it, and it just really opened me up wide. And I'm just so happy to be here. And honestly, you know, Jivana, you're a big part of that. (Wow, thank you.) Yes! Just, you know, with this Ashtanga mind, you know that I had, you know, I was not opened up to the possibilities of what Accessible Yoga could be. And because of you and those who paved the way, it just gave me a picture of what my practice could look like, how my practice could feed me, how I could feed other people. And, you know, without you, it wouldn't have happened.
Jivana Heyman 00:05:03
That's so sweet, thank you. I appreciate that. I know that you were involved in Kino MacGregor's recent book on Accessible Ashtanga. I think you wrote the forward and we're also in the book, right?
Shanna Small 00:05:17
I wrote the forward. I was a model. That was right at the beginning of my sacral arthritis diagnosis. And it's kind of funny, at that time, I was still trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I don't regret doing the book or anything like that, but it was my square peg, round hole. Still tried to push this idea, my body into these shapes that it no longer wanted to be in phase, but I'm thankful for for that opportunity, and working with Kino on that whole Ashtanga thing. But now I've put my Ashtanga hat down, and my body has thanked me for it. Nothing against Ashtanga, it just wasn't working for me anymore. And, you know, I'm blessed to have found another way to move my body.
Jivana Heyman 00:06:10
Yes, and what is that other way? Is it more intuitive? Or is it something in particular?
Shanna Small 00:06:16
It is absolutely more intuitive now. I tell people my main practice, honestly, these days, other than living the yoga, is mantra. I do have a mantra sadhana. I do pujas every morning. I do contemplation. I've always been into yogic text and yoga philosophy, so I really leaned into that. And when I get on my mat now, it's pure joy. It's really listening to my body. Like we tell people to do this, and I was saying this also during my Ashtanga phase, but now I realize I really never was. But now it's purely listening to my body getting on my mat. What do I feel? What do I need to do? What needs to be opened and just going with it. So, yeah, now it's more just free flow. It's pure love. Is pure joy, and I look forward to it.
Jivana Heyman 00:07:11
That's amazing. That sounds incredible. I love that. I love the mantra piece. That was part of my training. I mean, you know, I've shared a bit on the podcast so far that my lineage that I was trained in is Integral Yoga, Swami Satchidananda, which is also, like Ashtanga, problematic. There was abuse there. And so, you know, it's always hard, because I learned so much, and also I have to question everything. But, you know, I went through mantra initiation, which is really something, right? It's like, where you, as a disciple, you say that this is my guru, and you get blessed with energy from the guru, Shaktipat, and also you get a mantra. And I use that mantra for so long that it is literally, like, ingrained in my brain, like, I can't even, like, it's hard for me to meditate and not have the mantra there. It just is so, yeah, it's so present. (That's beautiful.) But since he was abusive, I really kind of tried to let it go a little bit and work on other mantras, like, try to be open to other possible things. I was just curious, do you have, like, a tradition that you're a part of? Are you trying to choose your...like, how do you find the mantras that you use?
Shanna Small 00:08:23
I have two teachers right now, both Vedic. One is Kaya Mindlin, and the other is Shantala Sriramaiah, and I learned mantras from both of them. Shantala, her tradition is the Mysore tradition out of India. And it was when Mysore was like the state, they still call it the Mysore tradition. That Krishna Yajurveda style of chanting is what I learned from her. And it comes, you know, straight from the Vedic tradition. And then there's Kaya Mindlin, who I also learned from, and she also gives mantras. So I learned mantras from both. Both of them are not like, oh, 'I give you one mantra, and this is your mantra forever' type of thing. It's more about teaching you to understand the use of mantras. You fall in love with the mantras, and then you fall in love, and then there's just, like, more mantras. And from here, you're just opening up all these different energies. And for Shantala, you know, this tradition, unfortunately, it's just not as popular as asana is in the world now. So I think a lot of her teaching is about, you know, let's get people in love with this. Let's get people saying these, let's get people learning this so that this tradition stays alive, and so that the impact that these mantras have on people, that healing continues. And so that's where I learned both of mine, my mantras from both of them, and I love it. I've seen a shift, a transformation in my life. They're powerful. They work exactly as the tradition says that they work. They immediately align me with certain energies, whatever energy that mantra is invoking, I align with that energy. And it's honestly magical, you know. And back in the day, some people saw mantras as being like magic, magic like incantations.
Jivana Heyman 00:10:32
But it's also, I mean, there's that piece, but it also goes directly, as you know, to like yoga philosophy around working with your mind, just the most basic teaching of yoga, which is that, you know, when you calm the mind, you experience your true self. And I think mantra is so, if not the most powerful...In fact, Patanjali says, like, the first thing he offers his Om, the first way to work with your mind is chant Om. So he's basically saying mantra. (That's right.) All the things we're doing in the name of yoga, we're trying to get at this, like, finding that, I don't know what you want to call it, peace or quietude or whatever it is.
Shanna Small 00:11:06
And it's found in the mantra. Like with my teacher, Shantala, when we do mantras, you have to sit still. Like there's no dancing and moving around. You have to sit still. So there you are, you have your asana. Then the mantras, there's pauses in certain places when you do Sanskrit, certain sounds have air behind them, certain sounds have no air. So you're doing pranayama at that time, you have to be really focused in order to do it. So there you have that. And I do get a meditative state, especially if you do japa, which is where you do the mantras over and over again, certain amount of times. Like, honestly, everything is coming through in that mantra practice. It is, like, the full thing.
Jivana Heyman 00:11:52
Yeah. I mean, it was definitely a big part of the Integral Yoga lineage, you know, we did mantras before every practice and after, you know, starting and ending. A lot of mantras, depending on the time of day, but you know, it's still a huge part of what I do, and I don't talk about it very much, so I actually really appreciate you bringing it up. And also, I spent a lot of time at the Sivananda Vedanta organization at their ashrams, although there was also abuse in that lineage too. Their guru is Swami Vishnudevananda, but he was so into mantra that, like, the morning practice was like, I don't even know, I think it was like an hour of chanting first thing, like, that's what you do, like, and then you sit for an hour. I mean, it was like so many mantras. It was incredible. They had a book, they made books of them. Any one by the Sivananda lineage, it's quite amazing, their dedication to mantra, I mean, that was just maybe the most important thing there, that they were doing. I just, I love it. I love hearing you sharing that. I really appreciate it. And it's funny, because I really watch all your videos. I think I watch all your videos. I mean, I try to follow you, and I love everything you share because you do constantly bring everything back to yoga philosophy, and that is really my passion, too. So I'm just very grateful for your focus on that. But I haven't heard you talk about mantra that much. Maybe I missed those, I don't know, but maybe it's in there. I should go back to your reels.
Shanna Small 00:13:20
You know, I talk about it with my group, The Householder's Guide. I talk to it with my group, and my students know how much I'm into it. To me, mantra is, is, is extremely sacred, and I do believe in the power that is unleashed by saying the mantra in the proper way. It's just from the results I've had when I say it with the right reverence, the right cadence, the right pronunciation, it like, you know, triples the power. Not that it didn't have power before, but it really just sends it to the stratosphere. So I'm very mindful of the chance I do and talking to people about it, because I really think it needs to be learned the right way with the right teachers. And I am not that one. I will teach people the most basic of mantras that you can learn, you know, but those long vedic ones, no, I think it should be learned from someone else. So that's why I don't really talk about it much, because I don't want anybody thinking I'm the one that you're going to come to for that. I will say, no, go over here.
Jivana Heyman 00:14:27
Well, another person I know who does teach it is Melissa Shaw, who we just had on the podcast a ways back. If people are interested, I know that's a big part of what she does so and there's so many great teachers doing it, but maybe you mentioned your householders group, or what do you call it? (The Householder's Guide to Yoga.) The Householders Guide to Yoga. Wow, there you go. I love that. Sounds like a book, actually. What are you doing there? You're talking about living the teachings then.
Shanna Small 00:14:56
I am, so I think that's what we're missing. I think that yoga can change the world. Like people have made these statements lately, and they're like against people who say that yoga can change the world, and I believe yoga can change the world, but when I talk about yoga, I'm not talking about Handstand or Warrior One or any of that. I'm talking about the actual science and teachings of yoga, I 100% believe that they can change the world, and I think that's what we're missing. So The Householder's Guide was my way of teaching people how to integrate these teachings into their life. I got into social justice, like I said, I was, you know, after George Floyd's death and, and that is a way to do social justice, is by living these principles and bringing them into the world. So for me, that was me taking the science of yoga and what I know about yoga and funneling it into something that can actually change the world by teaching people how to integrate this into their life. To me, I think it can change the world.
Jivana Heyman 00:16:10
Yeah, that's literally, like the theme of my book, Yoga Revolution. I mean, that's literally what I was trying to say, and, and just the way you said it, you know, and bringing in social justice, but also really looking at, what are the real teachings of yoga? What is the more foundational theory and philosophy behind the practices that people love so much, and how can we live that in our daily lives? And that's why I talk about it being revolutionary, you know, like it's an inner revolution in the way we relate to ourselves, but also that changes the way we are and the way we act in the world. And that's all that social justice really is. Is like, treating people out of kindness or ahimsa or with a yogic perspective, it just naturally flows from practice.
Shanna Small 00:16:56
Yeah, that's it. It does. It does. And, yeah, just, I think it's such a missed opportunity when we don't bring that into the teachings.
Jivana Heyman 00:17:08
I know. I mean, sometimes I think, like, can you imagine if everyone in the world who did yoga, and there are literally millions of people around the world practicing, like, if they all had that perspective of really bringing the love and compassion that is built up in their practice?
Shanna Small 00:17:26
It would be the tipping point, I believe. I think it would.
Jivana Heyman 00:17:31
And I think there are a lot of people who do, I actually want to say, like probably most people listening right now. I think most of my students and the people I interact with, I think really get that. So I don't think it's just us, like I'm saying, I really do think there's a large community of people who are dedicated to the fullness of yoga, but we're not the majority. And that's what's so painful, is that I think the majority of people doing yoga are mostly still focused on the physical and that's a good way in. I mean, as you mentioned, like, that's how you started. It seems like, right, with Ashtanga?
Shanna Small 00:18:07
That's how I started, and, yeah, it's a great way in, but people just get so stuck there, yeah. And our communities, or I'll talk for myself, the communities I've been a part of, they get stuck there. That's what I noticed about Ashtanga. I'll never forget, it was around 2016, it was right before I went to Mysore, India, which is where Sharath was teaching then, which was like, kind of the headquarters for Ashtanga Yoga. And before I went, I was feeling like I was ready for the next thing, meaning I wanted to shift from my focus on asana and really start to go deeper into the other teachings. But no one in the community was doing that. I couldn't find anyone who was doing that, and I couldn't find communities that were actually centered around that. So my answer was just to go back into asana. I actually doubled down. I doubled down! I went to India and I doubled down because I was so lost. I was so lost and didn't know what to do that I doubled down and, you know, I just think if someone at that time, at that pivotal moment in 2016 would have been like, yes, there's this pathway in this tradition that you can go down. But it wasn't. It was like, just more asanas, more asanas, more asanas, more asanas.
Jivana Heyman 00:19:40
But what was it, though? Because something obviously happened, or maybe it was your injury, maybe. Well, let me ask you this. So in each of these interviews or conversations that I've been having, I ask the guests this question about if there was, like a moment or a story or a teaching or something you experienced that stays with you and inspires you now. And it sounds like there is. I don't know, right? Maybe there's more than one thing, you know, I don't know.
Shanna Small 00:20:07
More than one thing. But yeah, developing the sacral condition changed everything because I wasn't learning the easy way. The universe was trying to tell me to to move on, to do something different. And I actually heard it loud. I heard it loud and clear, but I didn't listen. I ignored it. And so it was like, okay, here you go. So essentially, my sacrum on the left and right side. The left side, it's fused, so I'm missing a joint, and I have that joint on the on the right side. And so I did not know that. And so what was happening is, while I was practicing, my body was like, okay, I gotta find a way for her to get movement. And so it was going into the L5-S1, and to create movement from there, to make up for my left hip being born, you know, sacrum being fused that way. And so eventually it wore away the padding there, till there was nothing. And my body was like, enough! And then there was crippling pain. I would walk and, like, fall. I was terrified. I was terrified that I was going to lose my ability to walk. It was so bad. Like, I would play it off. I'd be walking, my left leg, hip, sacrum would give out. I would grab onto something or act like I was picking something up off the ground, or like try to play off what was happening. It got so bad, and I finally went to a doctor who did all the X-rays and explained to me what was going on and he was like, people are born with this condition and it never causes them problems. He said, the fact that it caused you problems means that you were doing something really extreme, because normally it doesn't cause problems. It's fine. People live with it. The fact that this happened to you, and you wore down the disc, like that. He was like, it means that what you were doing was very extreme, and it was there where I, and it still took a long time after that, like I said, I was still trying to do all the other things. I was still trying to force it, because I was taught Ashtanga can save, heal everything. And it didn't heal that!
Jivana Heyman 00:22:32
Thank you for sharing that. It sounds painful. And I have to say, I actually have degenerated disc in that same disc. And I don't know, I wasn't given like, a clear reason, but I think it may have been related to my asana practice too. And I also was a professional gardener, so I was doing like, a ton of lifting and work, like physical work, and I think the combination wasn't good, actually, for that particular disc. Do you know what I mean? Like that's a place a lot of people have issues. So, I don't know if I can feel it, like what you're saying, but I've had similar, intense pain in my lower back and ongoing issues. And a lot of my practice and Accessible Yoga exploration has been for that reason, like for my own back.
Shanna Small 00:23:16
Yeah. It forced me to go down the path that I knew I was supposed to be going down anyway. I have always been a spiritual person. I've always been into the science and the philosophy, and I've always been intuitive, and, you know, getting messages, and I know it's way out there, but I do, I get messages and kind of downloads. I've always been this person, and the universe was trying to get me to go towards it, but I wouldn't. And then that happened, and I still fought it. Still for a while, I fought it really hard, and then my pain was not going away. And then I was like, you know what? I'm just going to going to stop. And my pain went away. It went away. And, like, I started doing Pilates, and then I started doing yoga again, but again, it was that freestyle, what felt good. Pain stays away. But if I do like a, like, I want to do a Vinyasa class today, I feel so good, and I'm just going to go back to my Ashtanga ways of moving like that, the next day I have pain. Yeah. So to me, it was a blessing, because I feel like my spiritual journey has skyrocketed since it happened. I think it was a blessing. And I don't have pain. I don't have pain now, so it's fine. So to me, it was a blessing. I'll take it.
Jivana Heyman 00:24:50
I feel like there must have been a part in there where you have pain from it, and maybe you stop doing that particular physical practice, but it seems like you also simultaneously went deeper, right? Was there something that happened that allowed you to go deeper, or just being in pain? Was that it? Is that what did it? I'm just curious.
Shanna Small 00:25:13
It was being in pain and then really taking a clear look at the communities I had found, the community I had found myself in, that it was toxic, cultish, and really wasn't considering the individual person, that it was not really about accessibility in any way. Because when I had the injury, they don't really know what to do with you. Ashtanga is set sequences. They don't really know what to do with you. They're still trying to put that square peg in the round hole. When you show up, they're still, we're just going to add a block though. And still, that's not what I wanted. I still wanted to go down another path based on the science and the philosophy and that wasn't there. And then, you know, all the stuff that happened with Ashtanga, Pattabhi Jois and all of that, and just seeing how people were silenced in the community. I was like, I need to do what the universe is calling out to me to do, which is to really embrace that spiritual journey and let this physical thing just be the backdrop to to to that journey, and making that shift is what just, like, skyrocketed.
Jivana Heyman 00:26:46
Thank you for saying that, because I think sometimes people just turn away from yoga altogether. I think when there's an injury or if it's painful, or they think this isn't for me, they just turn away from it. And that's really heartbreaking. I think what you did is really using your experience to deepen your practice. It's incredible. But, like I said, unfortunately, I think a lot of people just go away and think, 'Oh, that's not my thing. I'm not into yoga or whatever. You know, it's not for me.'
Shanna Small 00:27:15
And I and I think it's because I always was into the spiritual side that I didn't. I knew that yoga was not the problem. It was my approach to yoga. It was people's approach to yoga that was creating these environments where this toxicity could grow. But it wasn't yoga, it wasn't the philosophy, it wasn't the spirituality, it wasn't that at all. So because I already was so into the spiritual side of it, it was never, honestly, I never thought about giving it up, even with the whole thing with the Pattabhi Jois, when I was still kind of hardcore Ashtanga and the assault.
Jivana Heyman 00:27:55
The whole thing, if we could just say what it is, because I think some people don't know, and I'm I feel like I don't want to harp on it, but I just think it's helpful. I don't know. Do you want to summarize what happened?
Shanna Small 00:28:07
So, in the Ashtanga community, you know, Pattabhi Jois, he was the father of the Ashtanga method, learned from Krishnamacharya. And by the time this kind of came out, he was already passed, and his grandson, Sharath, had taken over. But, some women came forward and talked about inappropriate touch that he had done, which rocked the whole community, not because some people were shocked. I think some people had already heard about it and knew but they had buried it and silenced it, and the fact that they were coming out, and now it was so public, it's kind of like those families, like, don't talk about Uncle Bobby out in front of the company. You know, you have to talk about it here. I think that's kind of what happened with the Ashtanga community and then a lot of people stopped practicing, and I still did not, because again, I had experienced the power of yoga for myself within my own body, through my sadhana, through my practice, and so I wasn't going to let it go. And so I totally understand why people let it go. Because if you're doing it for the community, if you're doing it for the six pack abs, if you're doing it for the clout, if you're doing it for the money, then all of that stuff will fall away when something like that happens. But if you're doing it for yourself, because the way it makes you feel, the way it makes you show up in the world, then that continues. And of course, you know, you might have to take a break. For sure, and like, figure out how you feel about it. But yeah, for me, it was a sadhana. There was no way I was going to let it go. But it did need to change forms for me.
Jivana Heyman 00:30:02
Right. Sadhana being a spiritual practice, so you already had that, you had that feeling that got you through that time. I appreciate it so much, because I just feel so many of the things you express. I think I went through too, just, you know, just kind of being heartbroken by abuse, and having to, like, pause and think, wow, how do I move forward? And then finding a way that is, in a way, better. That's what I can really feel in what you're saying, that I can relate to, that it was better, actually, when I found my own way, that was outside of that cultish environment where I was just being told to do a certain thing and perform almost. And there was a lot of other, like, I don't know, for me, just the whole cult thing, there's something where there's, like, a de-personalized element of cults that I find, I think it's what draws people in, but I think it just doesn't really work. I mean, it's just so, yeah, it's dehumanizing. And I love the way you're describing finding your own path and finding your own practice. And that's what I think I tried to do. You know, that's my goal.
Shanna Small 00:31:14
Yes, it was time. It was time.
Jivana Heyman 00:31:19
Yeah, thank you for saying that. I mean, it's really so powerful. And I think because, it's interesting, like, these days, like, I appreciate you sharing about Ashtanga too, because I think sometimes newer people maybe don't even know the whole history now. Like, there are people that are coming into yoga the last few years who don't even realize what happened, like, however many years ago, this was, I don't know what we're talking about, 10 years ago, or something, where it just seemed like the whole thing blew up. Not just Ashtanga, but everything Bikram and Integral Yoga and all of them. It all kind of happened, right, like at the same time.
Shanna Small 00:31:49
Yeah, it's interesting. And I do want to say I did Ashtanga for like, 20 odd years, so there was obviously some benefit to it, I don't want to take away from that. It gave me my foundation. It helped me to establish discipline and consistency and really realize the power of yoga by having such a consistent practice. And there were times when the community was extraordinarily beautiful, and then there were times where it was not. So I don't want to take, you know, everything away from Ashtanga and the people who still continue to practice, and there's definitely beautiful parts about it, but it wasn't for me anymore.
Jivana Heyman 00:32:34
And what advice do you give your students now, or for anyone, like, in terms of creating their own personalized practice, like, how do you guide your students to do that?
Shanna Small 00:32:46
My main thing is living the principles of yoga. What I do with the householders is, every month we have a theme, and then every week we speak about one little thing that they can do, that they can put in their life. I honestly believe that you can take one yogic principle and live it, and that principle will lead you to all the other principles. I really do. I think we're just digging a lot of shallow wells these days, so that's what I teach them. Because a lot of people are overwhelmed by the yoga philosophy, and I'm like, don't be pick one thing. Pick that one thing, and it will open the door to everything. Like, for instance, Ahimsa not harming so if you get up in the morning and you're like, is this food going to harm me? Were other people hurt in the...in this food? And that'll take you into a whole thing about your diet and what you consume and what you buy. So that'll take you into that or, you know, oh, what was what I said was that non harmful? That'll take you into learning how to communicate and speak to people, like, all just using ahimsa and asking yourself throughout the day. My sleep, did I get enough sleep? Was it harmful the amount of sleep I got or not? That's going to take you into that part of your life, like, just choosing one thing will open up so many doors and so many things to look at. So I tell people, you don't have to do all the things. You can honestly just choose some part of it and integrate that thing fully and completely into your life until it becomes a new pattern, because that's what Patanjali was trying to get people to do with this dualistic method in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. It's like, okay, let's take this big thing, break it down into these little parts, so you can look at these parts and see how they fit in your life, and replace them with some parts that work better. And then from there, you know, the sky's the limit, and then eventually you drop the parts, you know, at the end of that.
Jivana Heyman 00:35:05
I love that. I mean, I think that's so beautiful because Patanjali...I think it's so ironic that people feel that it's confusing and inaccessible when I think he has made philosophy, or, like, the not the philosophy, but the practice of yoga so direct and accessible in so many ways. Like you said, like, he gives so many small little sections, like, just do this. I love what you said, like, take one practice. But even I think about the way the Sutras are structured, and how it's like, just take this one little, like, this section. Do you know what I mean? Like, it could be like it could be like, practice non attachment, or the kleshas, or the eight limbs of yoga, or whatever it is. Like, take this one little section, and that's like, your whole life right there. Like, this is your pick. If you don't want this, then try that. If you don't like that, then try this. And it's, like, he's just giving so many choices.
Shanna Small 00:35:58
He does. He gives so many. That's the whole book. It's like, so many choices. He's just so, like, I don't know, yeah, he just gives so many choices, and we just get caught up on everything. But it's like, yeah, he's very reasonable. Very reasonable.
Jivana Heyman 00:36:16
Right! Like, he says, okay, like, you need to learn to meditate, you need to learn to concentrate. But he's like, use Om or use a memory you had, or an image of someone that you saw in a dream, or something positive, you know, or use anything that's uplifting.
Shanna Small 00:36:31
Use anything that's pleasing, I love that! When he's like, giving it all this stuff that you can do, and he's like, and if none of that works, just, just pick something you like. How much more reasonable can somebody be? You don't like these suggestions, I just wrote about, okay, just pick something!
Jivana Heyman 00:36:53
Something, but focus on it. Right? Like, pick whatever it is and focus on it.
Shanna Small 00:36:57
That's it! It's that simple, but yet that hard. (It is.) Yeah, that's what I try to do, is like to convey that to people, how simple it can be.
Jivana Heyman 00:37:09
And we over complicate it, I think, and make it way, way more confusing. I know, like, what you're reminding me of is how Gandhi, who is also kind of problematic in some ways, but Gandhi, like he did, basically lead a, you know, with the with the support of the people, let's just say, led a revolution in India based on two principles. He said it was based on ahimsa and satya together, he just combined those first two Yamas, and that was the entire, you know, revolution of this huge country was based on that, those two simple ideas you put together into satyagraha, the power of love, right, the force of love. It's just incredibly powerful what you're sharing, to pick something, to pick one thing and then go deep with it.
Shanna Small 00:37:56
I mean, think of that, if you just chose love, like, every day you contemplate it, what love is and what it means to love, and be love, and feel love, and treat people with love, and eat with love, and walk with love, and shower with love, like, if you just chose that and like, really as a real sadhana, like, really like get into this idea of what is love and what does it mean, just that could change the entire world. I just love it. It's like, yeah, it's so simple. We make it so hard. It's like, we don't have to stand on our head, we have to do handstand, put her leg behind the head. We don't have to do nothing. Can I just sit and be like, what's love? And did I walk in love today? Did I speak with love today? Like, just revolutionary, like you said.
Jivana Heyman 00:38:01
Yeah, it is revolutionary. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate your passion for it. It makes me so happy. Honestly, it makes me so happy to talk to you. So anything else you want to share about what you're doing or teaching? We'll have links, you know, of course, to your work, and people can find you.
Shanna Small 00:39:09
Yeah! I'm Shanna Small, everywhere. shannasmallofficial on Instagram. Shannasmallyoga is my website. You can come find me. The householder group is ongoing, non-stop. We meet once a week and talk about a principle only, like, 30 minutes. That's the whole point is for it to be easy, fast, quick. So literally, in 30 minutes, we distill down an element of the science of yoga, and we take that and use it all week long, so you really learn how to live it. So that group is always going on. You're welcome to join, and I always have things going on, but I really love that group. It's a true community. Come join us. Come find us!
Jivana Heyman 00:39:57
Wow, sounds amazing. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here.
Shanna Small 00:40:03
Thank you for having me!
Jivana Heyman 00:40:05
All right, bye. (Bye!)
Jivana Heyman 00:40:16
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Jivana Heyman 00:41:18
Hey, everyone. Welcome back. Hi, Deanna!
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:41:20
Hello, Jivana. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 00:41:22
I'm good. How are you? (Yeah, I'm good.) Yeah? That's good. I am a little tired again. I've been training for the sprint triathlon that I signed up for, which I'm very nervous about. So, I don't know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:41:37
Yeah, you're doing daily swim sessions in the ocean?
Jivana Heyman 00:41:40
Pretty much. Yeah, it's a ocean swim, which is harder than I expected, and then a bike and a run, and those parts I'm feeling good about. It's the open water swimming that is kind of blowing my mind at the moment. And it's not a long distance, you know, to sprint distance, but it's just still so hard to swim in the ocean.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:42:02
I think it's good for everyone to try something new.
Jivana Heyman 00:42:05
Yeah, that's kind of what it is. I just feel like, I don't know. I feel like I'm getting older. I am getting older. I mean, I turned 58 like, a month or so ago, and I don't know. I just feel like I need to be brave, try something I would never, ever do my entire life. So this is something new, and it's really interesting to watch my mind and how it responds. It's really a yoga practice to be honest.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:42:31
Yeah, I bet. Are you journaling about it?
Jivana Heyman 00:42:33
No, in my mind, I am. I am going to write about it, actually. I am working on an article, but I haven't really put pen to paper. I'm just reflecting on it at the moment, and I am still writing a lot, but I just haven't really...I think what it is, it's not the journaling piece, it's more just like I notice how when my mind is facing a challenge, that it responds a particular way, like I get anxious or afraid or kind of want to give up and trying to reflect on those feelings, versus caring for myself and stopping when I need to. Do you know what I mean? Like, how do I find that balance of not overdoing it, but also kind of pushing it, too. So it's been a really interesting adventure.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:43:24
Yeah, that is certainly yoga practice, just being aware in the present moment of what's arising and, you know, making space, I guess, to respond to it.
Jivana Heyman 00:43:35
Yeah. So it's fun. I mean, it's a lot like challenging asanas, you know, like, when I was younger, I used to really push myself with asana too, and I remember having similar experience then. But anyway, let's talk about that amazing episode with Shanna. I really love her. I love how she shares about yoga philosophy mostly. It just makes me excited to find a teacher like her who's really dedicated to yoga philosophy and the yoga teachings.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:44:01
It was such a good episode. And what really resonated, I mean, the whole episode was amazing. And also, I recently started a mantra practice in the last year, so this is all very new to me. So I loved your conversation about it, because, you know, I don't think that we come across conversations about that type of practice all too often. And in some ways, to me, it felt like before, maybe a little inaccessible, or like it was kind of like, you know, you were initiated into it. So that's always kind of like the sense I got, it's not something I could actually participate in myself because I didn't have the right training. But by supporting Tracee Stanley's community, that was something I was exposed to and I found that, like, in surprising ways, mantras can kind of live inside you and come out in the moment when they need to.
Jivana Heyman 00:44:48
Yeah, that's nice. I'm so excited that you're practicing and experimenting with mantra. It's true my lineage was very...like, mantra was a huge piece. But, like I mentioned in the interview, in my training with Integral Yoga, and it was something I was initiated into, but actually something that I love about Tracee, you mentioned Tracee Stanley, is in her latest book. What is it called? (The Luminous Self.) The Luminous Self, such a great book. And she has one part that I really appreciate, which is called, Initiate Yourself, and I think it's such a great concept, because we really don't need a guru. Like, we talked about the abuse, Shanna and I, in this episode. But I think there's so much that people can do just to explore these practices on their own. It's great to have a teacher, but if you don't, it's okay, you can just experiment with mantra. You can try, you can listen to them, you can listen to YouTube or take a class online. Do you know what I mean? And you can experiment with simple mantras. I think they're incredibly powerful. It's such a huge part of our tradition. It's amazing to me how little we teach about it, honestly.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:45:59
I appreciate what Shanna said about, you know, they open up different energies, right, like in yourself and your life, but also the exploration of them, like, keeping the tradition alive. Like, not using them in an extractive way, like, oh, I want this to happen, so I'm going to try this mantra. But there's like an entire, like philosophy behind each mantra, entire story, and you really learned a lot about yoga that way, and all the stories that were passed down through mantra.
Jivana Heyman 00:46:29
Yeah, and the teachings. One of the group of texts that I like to study is Upanishads, and many of them begin with a mantra, like an opening sloka, it's called, or a mantra. And they're so incredible. The most famous ones are from there, from the Upanishads, and they often reflect the teachings, like the Shanti mantras, the peace mantras, which really teach about peace and about the yoga practices that lead us there. Like there's a famous mantra, you know the fullness mantra, Om Purnamadah Purnamidam. Do you know that one? I don't know you know that mantra, but it's so beautiful. It's all about how fullness comes from fullness, and you take fullness from fullness, fullness remains. It's so mind blowing and beautiful.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:47:21
Yeah, each one is a doorway, for sure.
Jivana Heyman 00:47:24
Definitely, and actually the other thing about mantra is how you see it in the classical yoga teachings from Patanjali, which is that he he mentions mantra as the best practice, the best thing to focus on in your meditation. I shouldn't say best. He says the first, like, that's the first recommendation he has is repeat Om, just Om, if you're trying to overcome the obstacles that you're finding in your practice. He says, repeat the sound of Om. And then he goes on to offer, like so many other practices, but it's the primary one that's offered, like, the first thing that's offered in the yoga tradition. And I think it's so useful. There's something so beautiful about it, because sound, not only does it help concentrate the mind, but it's a great way to get the mind to focus from all the distractions that we have. There's something so powerful about it, and I often recommend that people do them out loud, because doing it silently, of course, is amazing, but you can repeat mantra out loud, and that's a really great way to get your mind to focus. And there's also research now about the vagus nerve, you know, from the Western side, and about how sound can help stimulate the vagus nerve, which is a calming practice. So chanting, I think, is very calming, also just on a physiological level.
Speaker 1 00:48:48
Absolutely. Do you have thoughts on, you know, I know pronunciation is super important when you're talking about mantra on the way it was taught, right? Like, because each sound there's like, a nuance and with like, you know, what kind of energy it's supposed to invoke or surface as you practice. So what's the balance of being introduced to a practice and building a relationship with it, and being devotional, but also, it may take some time to get the pronunciation just right?
Jivana Heyman 00:49:19
Yeah, I don't know. I'm not a perfectionist. I'm not, and like, people criticize me for that, but I believe in accessibility, and I just feel like it's better to just try it out and experiment and kind of get used to it and then refine it as you go along and trust your teacher. One of the things about pronunciation is, I do find, even though there are specific Sanskrit pronunciations, there is slight variation depending on the parts of India that you're from, like there's a different accent from North or South India. And you know, my teacher was from the south, and I know that he pronounced things different than many other ways I hear other people pronouncing Sanskrit. He had a specific way to speak. And so I learned through him. I don't think there's a perfect way. And I just, I just want to, like, let that go. There isn't, like, a one way to do something. At the same time, just reading it probably is not going to help that much, and it's really great to hear it and to try to listen to someone who knows what they're doing. So that's why I recommended YouTube recordings, is a great way you can find many of them. The other thing to understand is that sometimes we're talking about Bhajans or like songs that are made from mantras and where people add a lot of music, and it can be hard to hear the mantra and pronunciation in that sense. So I would try to find recordings that are just more simplified, or find a teacher. You know, there are many mantra teachers out there. Yeah, it's a good question. You can do simple ones too. Like, I don't think it has to be these long mantras. It could be Om Shanti or just Om. Like Patanjali said, just focus on Om, or Om Namah Shivaya. I don't think it has to be these long ones, although they're really beautiful. I mean, the famous ones, of course, the Gayatri mantra, which is incredible. There's mantras like, you know, the Om Tryambakam Mantra. I don't know if you know that one, that's incredibly famous and popular. So many. Asatoma. Many of those, actually, I said, are from the Upanishads. But there are a few essential ones. And I think most yoga teachers or practitioners can learn.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:51:27
That's great. Thank you. I appreciate how each of these podcast episodes are like a mini lesson. It's like you're getting a training by listening to each one. It's incredible.
Jivana Heyman 00:51:50
Well, you always ask good questions! Although I know we have some real, well, I shouldn't say real. [Laughing] We have some listener questions as well. I do love your questions, though, Deanna. I mean, that's why I think this is fun.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:52:02
Well, we have a few feedback submissions this week, which is great. Actually, we have a comment from Lee Majewski, and I believe you know, Lee.
Jivana Heyman 00:52:13
Oh, Lee Majewski, yeah, I'm not sure how to pronounce your name correctly, Lee. Lee is an amazing yoga therapist in Canada who's been teaching for a really long time, and she's focused on yoga for cancer mostly.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:52:27
Well, I'll read what she submitted to us here. "Thanks so much, Jivana, for this interview with Matthew Sanford and for all the work you're doing. The interview we did for my book stood out to me as one of the most raw and honest stories among over 50 interviews I did. Since then, I've been following your work, and I'm blown away by your wisdom, authenticity, and the value you offer. Thank you for your voice." So sweet!
Jivana Heyman 00:52:51
That is so nice! Wow. Thank you, Lee. That means a lot to me. Yeah, Lee interviewed me for a book. I think it's probably coming out really soon. It's a book about interviews, like she said, with yoga therapists, mostly, and yoga teachers, reflecting on their personal practice and spiritual experiences, so kind of more like that personal side of yoga teachers. And I thought that was a great idea. I'm sure it's gonna be really interesting book to be able to explore. You know, in a way, it's kind of like I'm doing in this podcast series. Honestly, I've been trying to ask my guests about that, like their personal experiences more. Because I think sometimes when you talk to people that are teaching professionally, they kind of give you almost like a sales pitch and like, what they're teaching rather than their background, which is I find really, really interesting. And yeah, that episode with Matthew was pretty incredible, too. So is this one with Shanna. It was amazing.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:53:54
I just want to say that Lee's book is called Spirituality and Yoga: Bridging the Sacred and the Human, and it's out this November. So we'll pop the pre-order link into the shownotes.
Jivana Heyman 00:54:04
Great. Yeah, thanks, Lee. I hope the book does really well.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:54:07
We have our next question from yoga teacher Amanda Kibbe. "Hi, Jivana. I currently teach and assist a weekly adaptive yoga class along with two other teachers, and have found it deeply rewarding. I completed your Accessible Yoga Training and gained so much insight. It was incredible. I'm now looking to further my education and pursue a certification in adaptive yoga, specifically for working with students with physical disabilities or mobility challenges, including people living with paralysis, limb difference, spinal cord injuries, multiple sclerosis, neurological conditions or cerebral palsy. Do you plan to offer adaptive yoga certification in the future? If not, can you recommend next steps? Thanks for all you do to make yoga more inclusive."
Jivana Heyman 00:54:50
Wow, thank you, Amanda. Thanks for taking my training. I'm so glad you're teaching, that's awesome. I bet you're learning a lot. In fact, I think the best way to learn about teaching adaptive or Accessible Yoga, is to just do it, to just teach it, honestly. My students have been, by far, my greatest teachers. But in terms of adaptive yoga, I mean, I kind of think, to me, there's not a lot of difference between Accessible and adaptive yoga. I feel like they're kind of different words for the same thing. Although, I would say Matthew Sanford, who was in our previous episode, he's known for that, for adaptive yoga, and I highly recommend you take trainings with Matthew. He's incredible, like, you can listen to that episode and get a sense of his work. And also, you know Rodrigo, who's on our faculty, Rodrigo Souza, is a student at Matthew's and shares a lot of the same ideas and teachings. And Rodrigo just finished leading Yoga for Disabled Folks, pretty short training for us, and I believe it's available On Demand through our platform, so we can have a link in the shownotes to that.
Jivana Heyman 00:55:56
I do think it's good to get more training and to really clarify, in your mind, how to serve those populations you mentioned. At the same time, I would say to me, I think just doing it is the best way to learn. If you're going to go more into the detail side of it, I'd actually consider pursuing yoga therapy training, because I think if you want to focus on specific conditions and really look at how you can support individuals, to me that becomes yoga therapy, which is great. I mean, yoga therapy, if you find the right training, I think can be a great way to kind of go deep into any of those topics you mentioned, and maybe a few of them, like neurological conditions, for example, I think could be a great topic to study in yoga therapy. Usually a yoga therapy program is at least 800 additional hours after a basic 200 hour training. So usually there's a minimum of 1000 hours. I don't think it's necessary, though, like to me, I think my training, or Matthew's, or and even Rodrigo's is probably enough to get you started, like you're doing, and then to decide what your next steps are according to the direction you want to go with your teaching.
Jivana Heyman 00:57:10
But I guess I find that, like I said, my students taught me so much, and mostly they showed me that they already knew what they wanted and what they needed. And in a sense, I feel like what I try to do with Accessible Yoga is simply share these tools with the students and give them permission to work with those tools themselves. So that's my only thing about yoga therapy is that when you bring in the word therapy, there's this feeling of like, 'Oh, I'm going to be fixing or healing somebody.' And that makes me a little hesitant. So I just, again, make sure you're in a good program, but I think it's really about just expanding your toolbox and reflecting and studying more. But like I said, I think so much can be done by just working with people and asking them what they need and what they're interested in and how they feel about it, like try something. I'm sure you're doing that now, and I love that you're working with a team of teachers. I think that's probably the best thing you can do. Make sure that you spend time with your teachers, talking after class about what happened and reflecting on what went well and what didn't work out, and how can you refine your teaching in the future. I think that's really the best possible way to learn how to teach real people and to have a group of peers like that that you're working with is ideal. So I'm very excited for you. Thanks, Amanda.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:58:44
Thanks, Jivana, that's a great response. It's great, I think, when a teacher gets hands on experience in the classroom. I'm not a teacher. However, in any sort of like continuing education, I find it's useful to do the thing, whether it's writing or because then you kind of have a feel for it, and then you ask questions that are kind of directly related to your experience. It's kind of like applying what you know for a little bit, and then knowing where maybe you need further development is helpful.
Jivana Heyman 00:59:12
Yeah. Actually, that's kind of why we have the Ambassador Program through Accessible Yoga, because I find there's a certain limit to what we can do within the Accessible Yoga Training. Basically, I kind of condense everything I've learned over 30 years into, you know, 40 or 50 hours, but then there's only so far I can take people without them having hands on experience. And I know that some people in the training have had experience already, but some are newer teachers. And I think it's so nice to have that ongoing support while you're working in the classroom and teaching, especially disabled folks or older folks or any marginalized population, to then come back to a group of peers, like I was thinking Amanda's doing with her co teachers, but also that we do in the Ambassador Program with Rodrigo, where then we meet and get to talk about your experience and challenges. I mean, it's really about bringing those real life challenges back to a group of teachers and reflecting on it with them. The other place, I would say that can support that is in the Accessible Yoga Community Facebook group. I find that group isn't really used to its full potential, because we have that group with, I don't even know how many thousands of yoga teachers on there, and it's like, bring your challenges there. I see a few teachers do it. They'll say, I had this student who, I didn't know what to do with them. They had this issue, and it didn't, and they were, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And then, like, they get, like, a ton of really, really interesting responses. I mean, it's a very supportive place. So both, I would explore that in general for all of our listeners, if you're teaching at all, find peer support yourself, or come to our Ambassador Program, or join our Facebook group or all those things.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:01:02
Yeah, we'll drop some links in the shownotes.
Jivana Heyman 01:01:04
Yeah. And I do hope people take the training. I mean, I think it sounds like Amanda wants more training, but I would just say again that I feel like the skills I teach in that training really are enough to make that work possible, to get people in the classroom and comfortable working with real people, and that's the goal of that program. And I know we have one coming up online. Well, I have some in person ones, and then we have an online one that's coming up at the end of September.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:01:35
And Shanna is offering a session in that training, which we're really excited about.
Jivana Heyman 01:01:39
Yes, Shanna teaches on how to adapt flowing, like, vinyasa flow classes and make them accessible. (Such a great session.) Yeah, that is really. And what is it, September 24th?
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:01:53
No, this cohort starts September 26th and I just want to let everybody know that we have early bird discount as well as six month payment plans that are available through August 19th.
Jivana Heyman 01:02:07
Great, yeah. We've really trying to strive to make the training accessible financially too. We have tiered pricing, you can choose the level that you want to pay that you feel fits with your financial situation, and then we also have payment plans at no additional cost, and partial scholarships as well. So I feel like, you know, especially the online training, I try to make it as accessible as possible for people. It's slow. We meet two hours, twice a week over, I don't know how many weeks is it? It's 13 sessions total, so about six weeks. And so it's pretty slow and even paced, and there's a lot of homework and practice and stuff. But it's not overwhelming, I used to do the whole program in a week. It was a lot.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:02:59
This is nice, this will take you through November 7th.
Jivana Heyman 01:03:03
And then in person, what we're doing is we do 15 hours of the asana portion in person, and then the other part is online. So the in person ones are actually a hybrid of in person and online training.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:03:16
Well, that's great. We'll put all the information in the shownotes. And we hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
Jivana Heyman 01:03:23
Yeah, thanks, Deanna. Thank you, Shanna, for being here and for all your work. I hope that people will follow up. And I mean, you can reach out to Shanna to study mantra. I know she said she's not necessarily a teacher of that, but I think she is. I think she has a really, really strong practice and her work around yoga philosophy for householders is really exciting, too, and so I hope people reach out to her for that. So thanks Shanna, for being here with me. And thank you, Deanna, thanks everyone for listening. See you next time.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:03:54
See you next time.
