Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm your host, Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, known today as Santa Barbara, California. It's a beautiful day and I'm very happy because I'm sharing this really great conversation that I had with Sunny Barbee. She's so funny. We had a great talk, and I mentioned funny because we start out by telling some jokes and talking about using humor as we teach, and then we shift gears and Sunny shares some really powerful teachings around satya, truthfulness and I just love that about her. You know, that she can be making jokes and then turn around and drop some truth bombs. So I'm really excited to share this episode with you, and I hope you stick around after the interview with Sunny. I'm joined by Deanna, and we have a really great question from a listener. Please leave your questions. There's a link in the show notes. You can leave a voicemail or a written question I'd love to hear from you, or comment you know, or a joke. We'd love to hear anything you have to share. All right, so here's my conversation with Sunny Barbee.
Jivana Heyman 2:02
I'm so grateful to Offering Tree for sponsoring this podcast and for making life easier for yoga teachers. If you're dreaming of turning your passion of teaching yoga into a sustainable business, they have everything you need in one simple platform. You can have your website, class scheduler, email marketing, payment processing and even membership tools all in one place. And Accessible Yoga Podcast listeners get 50% off the first three months, or 15% off the first year. You can sign up now and let them know that I sent you by using our link, offering tree.com/accessibleyoga. It's also in the show notes, so you don't have to write it down. Thank you, Offering Tree.
Jivana Heyman 2:42
Hi, everyone. Thanks for being here. I'm so excited today to have my friend, Sunny, here. Hi, Sunny.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 3:03
Hi, Jivana,
Jivana Heyman 3:04
Hi, how are you doing?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 3:06
I'm good. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jivana Heyman 3:11
Well, thanks for agreeing to be here and for you know, celebrating this milestone with me, this season is about looking back over 30 years. And yeah, so I appreciate you being part of that. I was just wondering if you could introduce yourself a little bit though, before we get into it.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 3:28
Well, I first want to ask like, when you look back and you think I've been teaching for 30 years, because I can't keep track of it, I still tell people, Oh, I've only been teaching five years. And actually, I think it's nine now. 2016? Yeah, 2016 and I still think it's only been like, 3,4,5, years, so I can't imagine looking back at 30 years. Does it feel like 30 years?
Jivana Heyman 3:53
Yeah, no, I don't know what 30 years feels like. I mean, time is so strange. It's like, you know, I always say to parents that the days are really slow and the years are really fast, right? I didn't make that up, it's like an expression. And, you know, that's same with everything. Like teaching yoga, it feels like there's moments that I remember, but the whole 30 years is kind of a blur. But before we talk about that, tell me about you!
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 4:20
All right. Well, I'm Sunny. I have been teaching for nine years. I am at a change in my life where we're getting ready to sell our house that we've lived in for 20, well, over 20...well, 22 years! Speaking of time, I don't have track of time. So it's a little strange to be packing up and getting ready to start a new adventure. Do I know where we're going? Absolutely not. I have some ideas, but it's kind of fun to have this adventure in front of us doing things that have always been...like we have just been working, working, working so much, and we have just decided that we're going to simplify, downsize, and do all of these things so that we can really do more time doing the things that we love and the things that we enjoy. And service is a big part of that as well, and we're excited about being at that. I teach at a senior center and a nursing home, primarily, I do teach online as well. And, love my classes, like, this is just, it's going to be really hard to leave some of this community. I am grateful for my online Zoom classes, because it doesn't matter where I'm at. You can come with me. I'm just going through so many changes.
Jivana Heyman 5:41
And tell people where you're located. You're in Florida?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 5:49
Oh, yeah, I'm in the panhandle of Florida. We just call it L.A., lower Alabama, you know, because this part of Florida might as well just be absorbed by Alabama, right? And, yeah, we're in that part of the state, thinking of heading to a different part of the state to be closer to our kids.
Jivana Heyman 6:10
Okay, but Florida is rough right now, isn't it? I mean, just with politics and everything?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 6:16
It's really hard. If I had the choice, I would get out of Florida as fast as I could, but my kids aren't leaving, so we'll stay here for them. We have three kids. They're all adults now, and we just want to be a little bit closer. We've had just a lot of changes in our family dynamics, and so we're wanting to be, you know, in a position where we can really nurture those relationships and be there for each other and have that community.
Jivana Heyman 6:43
Yeah, and I want to say for Accessible Yoga people, they probably just know you because you're involved in many ways. But one thing I thought of is that you're a special guest in our Chair Yoga Training, our Online Chair Yoga Training that we run.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 6:59
Yes, I am so proud to be a part of that training and the Yoga for Older Adults Training.
Jivana Heyman 7:07
Right! Oh, my God that's right. That was so awesome and you shared about yoga for stroke survivors. That was a really wonderful workshop.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 7:14
And that's been really an interesting journey that's just kind of come up for us too lately is, you know, doing all of that research and getting to talk to different people about yoga for brain injuries and stroke and I was just really fascinated by it, and just really loving all the different ways that we can we can help support these students. And I just found that all so fascinating, very excited.
Jivana Heyman 7:43
Because you mostly work with older adults.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 7:45
I do, I do. And I never thought in the beginning that this is the work that I'd be doing. I never thought I would be a Chair Yoga teacher. But now I look back and I think I couldn't, I can't picture myself doing anything else. Like, it's my dream job.
Jivana Heyman 7:58
What do you like about it the most?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 8:01
I love the community of it. It's just different. If you've taught, like, I in the past had taught, you know, vinyasa classes, hot yoga classes, those things, and then teaching chair yoga, the communities are so completely different. (Yeah.) I love the support and the love, the compassion that everybody has for each other in that room. And even with my Zoom classes, it's students that have never met each other face to face. They're all spread out across the country, but they're so protective of each other, they're so compassionate for each other, and you just don't see that in other classes, and that's probably one of the things I love the most about it, is community.
Jivana Heyman 8:50
Yeah, it is really special, isn't it? That when a group bonds, it's just so compelling. And I think it's probably almost the most important thing that can happen for them is to find a community. You know, so many people are isolated these days and the research is saying that that is bad for our health. And so it's like we always think about all the benefits of yoga. And so rarely do we talk about community as a major health benefit and benefit in so many ways for our students. (Exactly, exactly.) And you're so good at it. I just wanna say you're so friendly, and open, and welcoming, and kind. I mean, if people know you, they just know that about you. It's just like, you just have such a warm way, and not only personally, but when you teach, like your teaching itself, I find just so sweet. I love your classes.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 9:46
Thank you so much. When I'm teaching, the muscle I think I work the most is my cheek muscles, because I'm just smiling way too much because I'm just so happy that everybody's there. I'm so glad that we're practicing together. It's such a beautiful moment. And I catch myself just looking around the room, just grinning from ear to ear, and I'm thinking, you know, get back into your body.
Jivana Heyman 10:12
I love that. Yeah. That reminds me of how much I like to use humor when I'm teaching. It just feels so nice to bring in the element of smiling and laughing, and it's actually a great way to bond for people.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 10:33
My classes are pretty popular for having a joke of the day or a joke of the week. And even at the nursing facility that I teach, there's a patient who's been there for a long time, so she's gotten on board now and so every week she picks a joke and she practices it all week long. (Wow.) So that when I come in to teach, she'll say, I've got a joke for you and she really has to practice it! But I love that so much. And then my other classes will say, okay, what was the joke of the week?
Jivana Heyman 11:04
I want to know! You can tell me the joke of the week. I mean, that's a tough thing to bring into yoga.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 11:10
I'll tell you a good one. This was a really popular one. Everybody loved. Where do you learn to make banana splits?
Jivana Heyman 11:18
Where?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 11:19
Sundae school! I didn't say they're great jokes. They're pretty cheesy, but we love them!
Jivana Heyman 11:25
Well, I like to do, I call them dad jokes. So I would always bring dad jokes into my classes. Dad jokes are just like that, just corny jokes. I like to find ones you can say during certain practices, sometimes. I have one that I've done, I used to do it every class, where, if you were doing kind of like a foot stretching or massage, or I would sometimes have people in chair yoga, put one foot on the opposite thigh and then give themselves a little foot massage, and then I would say, look deeply into your sole. I don't know. (Stealing that!) Yeah, that was a pretty bad one, but it seemed yoga related.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 11:28
I do a lot of those too, whenever they come up, and usually I just, I think, since I've really gotten more comfortable at teaching, I've become so much more authentic, and maybe sometimes I think a little too authentic, like, maybe my class doesn't need to know everything that's going through my head at the moment, but things just kind of come out, and we all just kind of laugh at, you know, this is what Jackie's thinking ot this is what Sunny is thinking in the moment.
Jivana Heyman 12:41
That's awesome. I love that. All right, so now the question I've been asking all my guests in this series is, what's a story teaching or practice from your past that continues to inspire you as you move forward on your path of yoga? Is there something that you had in mind that you...?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 12:58
The one thing of teaching in my past that continues to inspire me is, on the path of yoga, is the idea of that the practice meets you where you are and not where you should be. Early in my journey, I had started to go to the yoga studio because I had chronic illness and depression, and had read that that should help me a little bit, but when I got in there, I started to become more focused on proving what I could do, showing my strength, pushing my limits. I was really focused on form. But as I continued through it a little bit deeper, I began to realize that the real yoga begins when I'm being more honest about how I feel. And, while being in these practices, being in these classes, and being more focused on showing, proving myself, I was really performing. I was really trying to prove my worth and that I was allowed to be in that space because I didn't feel like I belonged there, being somebody who's chronically ill, somebody who's living in a bigger body, somebody who's older, and all of these other things, I felt like I needed to prove that I could be in that space. I began to realize that the yoga is really taking place when I'm honest about what I feel and not what I'm forcing, if that makes sense. (Yeah.) That started to crack something open to me. And it took a while, but it really helped me be more in the present. And so, especially when I started doing the Accessible Yoga Training and the practices and working that into my teachings more, like, this teaching helps me to remember that yoga is more compassion, not just for myself, but for other people as well, and it's not about achieving something that it's more about being with what is and trusting that that's enough in this moment. So it helps to anchor me into that space a little bit deeper, and I bring that back to the teachings of, like, I'm always talking to you about the sutras and the yamas and the niyamas. And recently in my journey, you know, I always try to come back at least once a year and do a little bit of a deeper dive, a deeper study, see what I pick up this time and this time, it was more about the teaching of satya and the truthfulness and being more authentic, and allowing myself to authentically be in the room.
Jivana Heyman 15:45
Yeah, that's directly related to what you just shared.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 15:49
Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, it's like, you start peeling back those layers of yourself, and you're like, this is who I am, and everything's okay. I don't have to perform for you. I don't have to pretend I'm something that I'm not. And as I've gotten older, and I say I've been practicing or I've been teaching for nine years, you know, in just those nine years, which seems like a short amount of time, my body has changed more and my practice has changed more, and I've had to be a lot more honest about how my practice has changed and adjusted with my aging body now. I have to be a lot more honest with myself on the days that I have more pain, or the days that I'm more tired, or that I have more restriction and that it's okay to not push through that.
Jivana Heyman 16:45
Right. That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. I love that, and it's such a powerful teaching and just thinking about it, you know, I love how you directly connected it to satya, which I think is sometimes, you know, hard to get. It's hard to get satya, because I think truth can feel so subjective, right?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 17:12
Well, in truth with ourselves can be really hard. You know, when we're we're being honest about ourselves, we're being honest about how we're feeling. We're being honest about our current situation and sometimes we want it to be a different way so bad that we're not in that moment of acceptance of where we are, and that's and that's where the yoga meets us, not where we want to be, not where we were tens years ago, but in this moment.
Jivana Heyman 17:39
I do think that's what satya is trying to get at, is what is quote, real. You know, like, what is actually true. I mean, if you look at it in the context of the Sutras, in general, I believe what Patanjali is talking about is the truth of who we are, right, spiritual beings. Because all the Sutras are all about, kind of, he says, "Trying to cultivate discernment about who we are really and that we are essentially these spiritual beings having a temporary human experience." And so within that context, in fact, just before he teaches Satya, just before he introduces the eight limbs of yoga, he shares that, you know, in fact, kind of like the preamble to the eight limbs, is basically saying that we need to cultivate discriminative discernment, which is called viveka-khyati, and that is where we begin to see the difference between the parts of us that are eternal and unchanging, and I would say true, and theparts of us that are constantly changing and temporary, like the body.
Jivana Heyman 17:47
It's like it's saying that we're already whole, even as we grow.
Jivana Heyman 18:43
Yes, exactly.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 18:45
We're already whole and we don't have to wait for that moment to arrive. It's already here.
Speaker 1 18:58
Yeah, you figured it out! That's what I was trying to say in a complicated way. You just said it very simply.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 19:18
Yeah. I mean, this is where self acceptance starts to take root for us. It's not that it's all love and light, but it's the kind that says, like, I can be with myself, even when I'm a little messy, even when I don't have it together, even when I don't know what the next step is, right? Like, it's all of that, and then satya has changed how I teach, as well. I don't have to be the expert in the room anymore. I just try to be real, because that's what people connect to, and honestly, that's what I've seen other people do.
Jivana Heyman 19:52
Say that again because it's so important, I'm just want you to say it again.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 19:56
That I don't have to...that is just to real?
Jivana Heyman 20:00
That you don't have to be the expert in the room.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 20:02
I don't have to be the expert in the room anymore! Like, that's one thing that terrified me to teach was, what if somebody asked me a question I don't know, or what if they want to do a pose that I can't get my body into? There was so much to be afraid of. But people just want realness. They want humanness, and that's all we have to do is show up in that practice. It's so simple, but we've over complicated it.
Jivana Heyman 20:28
Yes, well, and then again, what you just said is so important. What are people looking for when they come to class? You said realness, and I think that's true, but also I think they kind of want to be inspired and uplifted, and in a way, they want to see the truth. They want, they often, I think, want to be exposed to that, to like a glimpse of the truth of who they are, you know, their fullness. And that's what yoga does so beautifully.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 20:57
And when we're coming into the front of the room, and we're setting that example, and we're allowing ourselves to be real by telling corny dad jokes, or, you know, whatever, making people laugh, or just like we're just hanging out together.
Jivana Heyman 21:13
Thanks for connecting that to dad jokes, because I always felt kind of silly, but you're right.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 21:17
See, it's all about that, right? Like, embrace all of yourself and then we take the accessibility branch of it as well, and satya has shown me that accessibility isn't just about props and options. It's about being willing to listen to the truth that I haven't lived. It's about asking who might not feel safe or who might not feel seen or welcome in this space, just like I did in the beginning, feeling like I didn't belong there, and then being willing to do something about it. Like, we can't just recognize it, right? Like, we have to be honest. And then what are we going to do about it? How are we going to change it?
Jivana Heyman 21:57
Ah, wow! That's amazing. You got a lot of them, a lot of jewels today, just gems to drop on us.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 22:10
Well, it's an ongoing practice. I don't have it all figured out, but satya keeps me accountable, right? It helps keep me honest. It helps keep me looking at my own biases and things that come up. I mean, that's amazing a lot of times, when you're really looking at yourself in honesty, like, oh, that's, where did that thought come from? You know?
Jivana Heyman 22:33
Yeah. Well, like, I have another dad joke for you. So I don't know where this thought came from, because you just...(Share it!)...inspired me. 'I tried to catch the fog, I mist!' (That's a good one!) It goes something like that.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 22:50
[laughing] See, and this is what I'm talking about, too. Satya doesn't have to be hard. Truthfulness doesn't have to smack you upside the head, right, it can be soft. It can be tender. Satya can be funny. It can sound like, I need to rest. It can sound like, this pose doesn't work for my body today. It can sound like, I don't know, but I want to learn, or I want to explore that a little deeper. And yeah, satya has really spoken to me lately. Can you tell?
Jivana Heyman 23:23
Yeah, I can see that! I mean, wow, thanks for sharing. It's very inspiring. I mean, I love the way that you've kind of brought it into your life. I think that's the real challenge with with yoga practices, in general, and with the yamas, in particular, is how to practice them in regular, in everyday life. And it can feel like these, I don't know, kind of like scary rules or something and I think it's so much more about what you're saying, you know, like, these really simple daily things that we can do, the way we talk to ourselves, the way we see ourselves, as students, as teachers, you know. I think that's so beautiful. And I also, like I said, I love the way that they always connect back to the heart of yoga. I mean, that's why I think the ethical practices are the most important thing that we can have in yoga or practice, and is so often missing. Like you said, around accessibility, I feel like it just flows naturally, you know, from the ethics. Like, making a class accessible and trauma informed, and all the things we try to do, it all happens naturally if we practice the yamas.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 24:28
I agree with that so much, and I think that's part of why I'm always so drawn to them so much, because having my practice and, of course, my practice is going to go into my teaching, is rooted in the yamas just makes it easier. It just makes it easier. You know?
Jivana Heyman 24:54
What makes it harder? Can I ask you? Like, do you feel like you still have obstacles to that?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 25:00
Well, growing up and being an adult, just trying to figure out who I am and dealing with different things, I feel like I was wearing a mask a lot of times with different people in different situations, and trying to show up as a version of myself that really didn't quite fit all the way. And that was definitely a challenge in the beginning of, I think when a lot of students go through YTT, they're always like, how can I find my yoga voice? Or want to be like that teacher and they start mimicking people, and they start doing all of that. And I, and I've done all that as well. But when you start really reflecting and being honest with yourself, practicing satya, like there's this invitation to soften into your own truth. That you don't have to be polished, and you don't have to be perfect, and you don't have to show up sounding like the most popular teacher at the studio who everybody loves, you just have to be honest. And, you know, you just have to be honest with love.
Jivana Heyman 26:06
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think sometimes we put these teachings out there, like, there's some analytical thing, like an intellectual practice, or intellectual study. And there's that side of it, but, I think what you're saying is that it allows us to love ourselves and our students. Yeah, that's so beautiful. But there's so many obstacles, that's why I said it. Like, you know, you talked about not seeing yourself in the classes, feeling kind of like you don't fit in, right? Was that how you said it? And not only this student, but then as a teacher, like, how did you overcome that part? To, like, be able to see yourself in the role of teacher and leader? Was that hard?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 26:47
So, it was very hard, because, you know, I was still really self conscious about the way I was physically showing up in the practice, the way I looked, the way I was dressed, or things like that, and thinking that students weren't going to take me seriously. Or, you know, do you ever have a student just like come in and take a look at you and go, I'm leaving, you know, like that's happened before. Or I've had students at the end of the class say, oh, well, that was more than I was expecting. And I'm thinking, I know they were trying to put a compliment in there, but I know what it was, right? Like people will just tell you a lot of times, like, yeah, that wasn't it. But then I started having students show up in class. I even had a student who told me, I have been practicing yoga and I've always wanted to be a teacher, but I didn't think I could because of the way I looked, but because of you, I signed up for YTT. And again, you're like, thank you? Okay. Like, that's good. We need that representation, you know. When I was in YTT, there was a lot that was being skipped over for myself because, you know, like, oh, well, you can't do these arm balances, or you can't do this, just sit here and watch. And nobody offered me anything different. I just, you know, realized, like, yeah, we need people that look like me in front of classes, so that people will show up to class and know that they're okay.
Jivana Heyman 28:22
Yeah. I mean, I always say that, and it's probably a theme in this podcast already, which is that, like we need to diversify yoga teachers and people need to see themselves represented in the front of the room. It's essential. And so anyone who feels like they're interested in teaching, but they're insecure about it. I feel like it's the opposite. I think you're the teacher we need. Like, your insecurity, whatever it is, whatever it is, whatever part of your identity that you think is not appealing, or, I don't know, like, what's the word? You're not enough?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 28:56
Enough. That's a lot. And, you know, I had to ask myself, when I was going through poses where I was trying to teach things like, is this pose serving me, or am I trying to prove something? And I think about that a lot when I'm teaching, is, what's the purpose behind this pose? Why am I doing this? Is there a benefit physically? Is there a benefit mentally? You know, we don't need to try to prove anything. And you know that kind of honesty can get a little uncomfortable sometimes, because it meant admitting when I was tired. It meant admitting when I was hurting. It meant admitting when I didn't know the answer or I didn't know something, and how much I was masking my needs to make it look like I had it together, to make it look like I had control, to make me feel like I was enough. You know, just like you said, it was a lot of masking to make myself feel that way. But again, satya doesn't demand a very dramatic truth, right, like it just needs you to look inside and start to be honest.
Jivana Heyman 30:03
So how did you do that? How did you do that part? Like, is there some, do you have some suggestion for people that might be struggling?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 30:11
Well, I mean, I wish I had a magic formula or an answer. I had a therapist once tell me, and this was really, really influential on me as well, just with the timing of it, and I even put it in my phone, and I would put it on pieces of paper for me anywhere. It's the saying of, 'I have value and self worth, regardless.' And I love that it's not necessarily the end of the sentence, like regardless of anything that you could put on the end there, right? I still have value and self worth, and so many people are struggling with that, with themselves, and I feel like I just need to try to be an example of that. It really did just take accepting my past and not having shame or embarrassment or anything with it, but just saying like this built me, brought me to where I am and that's where yoga is meeting me.
Jivana Heyman 31:13
Yeah, I love that. I have value, regardless. I have value and self worth, regardless. And that's a beautiful practice, because, in a way, that is a yoga practice right there. Sounds a lot to me like pratipaksha bhavana, you know, that practice of replacing negative thoughts with opposite, positive ones, or reflecting on negative thinking. So it's a kind of thinking, it's a kind of practice where you're trying to cultivate positive right? Like I have self worth, regardless. Also, again, I can't help but bring it back to the basic essence of yoga, which is what that phrase is kind of reflecting. And that is that we are whole already, like we are whole, complete, full spiritual beings, literally, that's what yoga is saying, that we are that already, and all we're trying to do is remember, remind ourselves, go back to that. All the practices of yoga are designed to eliminate the obstacles to our experience of that wholeness.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 32:17
Right, right! I love that so much. That kind of fit in some kind of invisible mold that somebody decided I needed to fit into, and that somebody might have been me, it might have been me, but it might have been other influences in my past as well. But just knowing that, like, I don't need to do that. I needed to trust what was underneath and trust that what was underneath was enough, as well. So it takes a lot of practice. I have a student that I was working with who kept saying that she was having a really hard time doing her own personal practice, and she was like, I just don't know what to do. And so in one of our private sessions, I said, I'm going to set the clock for 10 minutes. And don't even, like, look at anything, just start moving your body in any way without thinking. Move in any way that your body wants to move in this moment. Listen to your shoulders, listen to your back, listen to your legs. And that was like a little lesson on satya right there, too. And in 10 minutes, she was done, and she felt amazing. And I was like, there was your yoga practice. Like, you didn't have to choreograph anything. You didn't have to perform anything. This was your practice. This was you connecting with your body, listening to yourself, and just moving in the way that it needed to move. So simple. And she was like, really, this is it? And I said,welcome to your yoga practice.
Jivana Heyman 33:58
It can be hard, you know, it can hard to cultivate that self awareness, to know...I mean, in a way, that's what practice becomes, I think, as you learn, even if you to think of it in a formal way is you could learn the basics of whatever, asana, pranayama, meditation, and then in your personal practice, it's about doing exactly what you just described, which is doing whatever parts of those come to you in that moment, you know? I mean, that's why it's helpful to learn the basics, I think, just to have those tools available. But in the end, that's all we're trying to do, is being sensitive to what we need at any time and again, with that overarching goal of getting out of our own way.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 34:45
Yeah, because, and you know this as a fact, like I am probably, I am really hard on myself, and I have a lot of imposter syndrome, right? Like, why am I here? Why are you talking to me? I don't know anything. But then I have to remind myself, like I do know, like I am an expert at my own lived experience, so there's nobody that knows that better than me!
Jivana Heyman 35:12
Yeah, no, I am so happy to hear you say that, because I do know that about you. I mean, we're friends, so we get to talk, and I know you have so much to offer. And like this talk alone, like this conversation, I mean, it's been incredible and so valuable. I just really hope people listening will...I know they'll benefit from it. So thank you. (Ah, you're so sweet.) But I was gonna say about imposter syndrome is that I have it too, and I think it's kind of normal. Like, I actually don't even know, like, I kind of don't like the name imposter syndrome, because I feel like we could look at it a different way, which is just again, satya. And actually, I wrote about this in my last book too. It's like, if we looked at imposter syndrome in the context of yoga philosophy, I think that what we're seeing is that, yes, the ego isn't real. It's not who we are. So of course we don't have faith in it. Of course it's not enough. Of course it has this imposter syndrome. But that's it. It's the ego doing that. And what we need to do is recognize, oh, that's my ego. That's my ego doing what my ego does. Ego-ing. You know what? (It's really good at that, right?) Yeah, and like, that's okay, you know, like, my ego can have its little worries about what people think about me, and panic about how I look and do I fit in, and will people like me, am I good enough? But in the end, that doesn't really change the fact that I am whole, and full, and complete, and I am totally valuable exactly as I am. So I have something to offer, right?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 36:44
You spent so much time helping other people reclaim their wholeness. Students, teachers...you've influenced so many people through yoga. So I'm curious, is that what you find to be that something that you're still learning or learning to welcome or try to accept about yourself? Is it that, or is there something else that might be...(Totally!)... that you haven't talked about before that continues to shape how you show up?
Jivana Heyman 37:11
Oh wow, I mean, I think it's exactly that. I'm doing it because I need it. Like, you know how they say, like you teach what you need, or what is an expression? I don't know there's some expression about that.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 37:23
I remember in the past podcast with Shawn Moore, he had said that in his struggle with restorative yoga, that he was like, I realized that was the practice that I needed to have, because it challenged me, right?
Jivana Heyman 37:41
Yeah, no, I definitely have a lot of insecurity. I have anxiety, and have struggled with it my whole life. It's a lot better now than it was when I was younger, but I think growing up queer, I think I felt like I didn't fit in or belong, and I wasn't good enough, and it really impacted my self esteem. I was extremely shy. I would never speak, like, in school or anything. And I feel like yoga gave me that, you know, yoga gave me that self confidence and it's not even self confidence it's exactly what we're talking about now, it just gave me a connection to something else, to faith. I have faith in myself, and I think that's what we're talking about. It's like, having faith in yourself is the best gift that I could ever get, and I really do hope that I can share that with others. I mean, that is what Accessible Yoga is all about, right? It's like just seeing the fullness in all of us, in all of our students. You know, that's what I try and tell all the people I train, is the first thing you need to do as an Accessible Yoga teacher is just start by recognizing that your students are perfect, whole, and complete the way they are, no matter what they're doing, how they look, whatever problems they're having. It doesn't matter, because in the end, if you can have that vision, it'll shift everything. Right?
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 39:05
Oh, that was so perfect how you said that. Like, not even just looking at ourselves, but looking at everyone around us, and just realizing that they're whole where they are, even though they're growing as well, because they're just perfect.
Jivana Heyman 39:18
They are. And that's hard when it's people that we struggle with, you know, or people that cause harm, you know, like politicians, for example. (Exactly.) Yeah. But I think that's where I see, well, that's ego, and it's ego that's gone awry, you know, it's like ego out of control. And I think, you know, I don't know how to say it, but to me, I think that the whole point of spiritual practice, in my understanding, is to see through the veil of ego and recognize our inherent wholeness and interconnectedness. And to me, when I see people who are causing harm, it just feels like they're still stuck in the ego, they haven't gone deeper. And it's really, really frustrating when it's veiled in religion, in particular. I really struggle with that, you know, because that's what spirituality is supposed to do, like, literally, like, that's the point. You've missed the point!
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 40:16
You missed the whole point. Like, you just jumped right over! Yeah, I really think thatshowing up in the world so much more authentic is so much needed. It's just so needed by everybody, so that it keeps us accountable for things, to the ongoing work that we're doing, to the ongoing work of yoga, with the ongoing work of what we're trying to do in our country. We just need to, like, stay aligned with our values and just keep showing up authentically. When I'm teaching, I try to be as authentic as possible. They see me fall over or do whatever, like we just laugh and move on, because it's not my job to be perfect in everything, which I think you're talking about religion, there's this whole idea of perfection and being a certain way and showing up a certain way. And there's so many that are just missing that mark completely, too, you know?
Jivana Heyman 41:22
Well, that's a beautiful message. I really appreciate you sharing that. I mean, wow, this was an amazing conversation. I don't know if you have more to share, but that was like a sermon there!
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 41:37
I didn't know what I'd talk about, but yeah, like, I get started on some of these things, and I just...that's just satya! We could talk about all the yamas! [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 41:48
I hope you will, and maybe you should write a book about it.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 41:51
Well, what I'm doing right now is I am in the process, and this is another reason, when I started digging back in, I started thinking, there is a need for a little bit more of this. And so I've been working on developing, like, an eight week mentorship for either new yoga teachers or yoga teachers that need to connect again. And it's all based on the yamas and the niyamas, eight limbs of yoga, and bringing all of these things into...we're really getting into talking about the the eight limbs of yoga, and then how we're exploring different practices and just becoming more authentic on the mat, and just trying to help yoga teachers feel more confident, find their truth, their authenticity, and that they can, you know, make this a part of teaching from their own lived experience as well.
Jivana Heyman 42:51
Well, in the shownotes, we'll have links to you, to your social media and website, so people can follow up with you about that, because that sounds amazing.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 43:00
I'm really excited about it. To me, I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed when I finished my 200 hour, and probably needed it a few other times in there.
Jivana Heyman 43:12
I love it. It's a brilliant idea. I hope you'll do it. All right, well, thank you, Sunny. I don't know what to say, it was just so amazing talking to you, and I just really appreciate your friendship and being on the path with you. And your willingness to share openly and being vulnerable is just very inspiring.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 43:35
Well, thank you, Jivana. Thank you so much for creating this space for all of us, and the ways that you're teaching just always continues to ripple through my life, and it's always just an honor to share time with you, conversations and lessons and all of that fun stuff.
Jivana Heyman 43:54
Thanks, Sunny.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 43:55
I'm so grateful.
Jivana Heyman 43:57
Me too. All right. Thank you.
Jacquie “Sunny" Barbee 43:59
Thank you!
Jivana Heyman 44:08
In some of my recent teacher trainings, people have been asking me if I think that yoga teachers need to have liability insurance, and I always answer yes, very strongly, because I think it's important that we protect ourselves. It also gives me a chance to recommend beYogi Insurance, which is the company I've used for years, and also a sponsor of our podcast. So thank you, beYogi, for giving me peace of mind. I appreciate the fact that you cover live classes, both in person and online, and also pre recorded content. It really helps. And I'm not the only one who likes them. I know they have over 1,300 five star reviews, that's pretty amazing. So if you're looking for insurance, check out the link in our show notes. There's a discount for you with beYogi insurance.
Jivana Heyman 45:00
Okay. Welcome back, everyone. Hi, Deanna. (Hello, Jivana!) How's it going?
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:06
It's going well. How's it going over there?
Jivana Heyman 45:08
Um, I'm surviving. Life is, I don't know, lifeing. Life is intense. The news alone. I try not to read the news, honestly. That's the state I'm in right now, but, I want to say talking to Sunny was a breath of fresh air. And like, Sunny, like, was just like, you know, she's like sunshine. It was amazing.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:40
When you started off the conversation trading jokes, which might be a podcast first, and it was incredible. Are we allowed to ask people to submit their jokes on SpeakPipe?
Jivana Heyman 45:51
Oh, God, please! Please, I love them. I love really silly dad jokes, because, you know, I'm a dad, and my kids had to deal with me doing that for years and years and years and years. I used to have books of dad jokes, and I would just like go through and read them to my kids, just to see them roll their eyes. Yeah, Sunny wrote me that she really, I mean, after we talked, after this actually, and she's already using those jokes in her class, but it was so fun to listen to, I mean, to talk to her and listen to her jokes and the fun she has in her classes. I mean, her students are really lucky. Let's just put it that way.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:29
Absolutely. And you had a really deep conversation, too, about satya, which I really appreciated. She talked about how, when she first kind of started practicing yoga, she felt that she had to prove her worth, prove that she belonged there and over time, she started leaning into the practice of satya, she could actually, you know, step into a class, then now, step into a role of a teacher, like where she's honest about how she feels. And here's a quote I just want to share, because I love it. "Yoga isn't about achieving something, but it was more about being with what is and trusting that that's enough in the moment, anchoring in that space a little deeper," she said.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:12
Anchoring in that space a little deeper? (Yeah.) That's beautiful. Yeah, I love that. And it's funny, because I think Sunny sometimes, like, comes across as just kind of very sweet and nice, but like, there's that deep intellect there that, you know, really kind of always touches me and makes me think. And she did it again. So thanks, Sunny. That was beautiful. I love the theme of satya, it's almost like a theme in this podcast series, like it keeps coming up. I just feel like, I don't know, I guess that's what yoga makes us work on for ourselves, is just like finding our own truth, speaking the truth, being honest with ourselves. I mean, it's just such a big part of this practice. So it makes sense.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:00
And I think the yogic concept of like that we are all whole to begin with, and the practice of really peeling away those layers so we can experience it. And, you know, as I was listening to this conversation and even previous episodes, it's kind of like, what is wholeness supposed to feel like? And I sort of had wanted to ask you that question. And sort of the question is sort of like, even maybe a poor construct, right? Because it's not supposed to feel like anything. But I loved what you said, actually, when you were talking about how yoga, it's not like it gave you confidence, but it gave you a faith. I was wondering if you could talk about that for just a second?
Jivana Heyman 48:39
Yeah, I think, like when you just said it right now, when you kind of started asking it, I thought that's what I thought of, too, is it's just faith. It's belief in myself or in something bigger than myself, like it's that I'm connected in some way. And when I trust that, it changes my perception of my life and even my relationship with my own mind, is trusting that part of me is okay. Like you said, part of me is full and complete and whole already, no matter what is happening in my mind or with my emotions, right that there's this other like place within me. The image I've heard before is like the ocean is like this deep, quiet part of the ocean that's unchanged, regardless of how you know, wild the waves are on the surface, there's like that deep, quiet peace. And I think that's what yoga feels like for me, it's like remembering that there's that solid place and that that's what I think of as faith. And especially when I'm not feeling it, that's when the faith comes in. This thing, oh, I know it's there! I just maybe lost sight of it for now, but I I know it's still there, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:54
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I love the imagery of the water. (I know, right?) Makes it feel a little more tangible.
Jivana Heyman 50:01
Yeah, good. I'm so glad. I love that question. Really. I think faith is a huge part of the practice, and I don't know if we talk about it in yoga very much, because it sounds like a word connected to religion, and I think it's really a word that's about spirituality, believing in something bigger than your ego mind, which is exactly what yoga is asking us to do, not even asking us to do, it's what yoga is showing us. And also, I think, the other part of your question was about, how does it feel, or what is it like if you're in that place? I think it's joy. In fact, you know, in a way, Sunny showed us it's like it's telling jokes and laughing and being in the moment, spontaneous, you know, feeling joyful and at ease. I think that's it. What do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:52
Yeah, I think that's an underrated quality in our lives, especially now it feels like it's easy, I would say, to kind of deprioritize that right now with so many kind of emergencies day to day in our personal lives and the wider world as a whole. But yeah, I spent the weekend with friends, and it's just like that sense of joy and ease, it felt so like it was just very present and in the moment and I just feel like that's so fueling, and it gives you energy for the times where you need to take action in the world.
Jivana Heyman 51:26
Right, it's building your faith. It's building your faith so that it's there when you need it. And, yeah, I think then Sunny and I talk about this idea of satya as just remembering the truth, it's like the truth of who you are, not so much just speaking truthful words, but actually like that deeper connection, which is what it feels like to me. I think that's what the yoga teachings are getting at when they talk about satya. It's something way more than just our speaking. And I was thinking about the word, there's a word in Sanskrit that's shraddha, by the way. Shraddha means faith in Sanskrit. That has been on my mind. Yeah, anyway, I love I love that. Wow. You have some good questions today.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:16
Well, we also have one more question on SpeakPipe to share from our community.
Jivana Heyman 52:21
Oh good! I love that. I love when people leave questions. I just want to say so if you're listening, please leave, leave a message. It doesn't have to be a question. It could just be a comment or a thought or a question. (Or a joke!) Or a joke. Yes, please leave me your...
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:35
Officially opening it up for dad jokes related to yoga.
Jivana Heyman 52:38
Yeah, leave your silliest jokes!
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:41
All right, this question is from Traci Foster.
Traci Foster 52:45
Hello. I was wondering what your recommendation would be for teaching Accessible Yoga to anywhere from 18 to 24 people that live with various disabilities, probably half with physical disability, and those are varied, and the other half with other neurodivergence or other cognitive disabilities, etc, chronic illness, yeah. Just interested in what your opinion would be about not only teaching Accessible Yoga to disabled people, but a vast array of different disabilities simultaneously. Thank you. Bye bye.
Jivana Heyman 53:32
Oh, wow. Traci, thank you so much for that question. That's like what I would want someone to ask me!
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:43
We did not plant Traci's question.
Jivana Heyman 53:49
No, I know it's like a plant. I mean, I have almost too much to say. I think in so many ways, your question is very broad. It's a big question, and there's so many things that we can do to make yoga accessible for a mixed group of people with different disabilities, but at first, I would say a few cautions. I think, I worry sometimes that, especially Accessible Yoga teachers, you know, we often are very service oriented and very generous and giving people. And I imagine Traci is too. And so sometimes we want to, like, be everything for everyone. And I just want to say, it's okay if it's too much, like, it's okay if the group is too big, you don't have to do everything yourself. So when I think about what you described to me, if I was going to a new place, and if I had 18 to 23 new students with all different complex disabilities, that would feel a little overwhelming. That's a big group if I'm going to do it by myself. So first thing I would recommend is maybe to find an assistant, see if you can find a friend, like a yoga teacher, who would take it on with you, maybe, or potentially, maybe start with a smaller group. Or if it's going to be just that's just how it is, that's the situation. You're there and you that's the group you have. Maybe plan out a series of classes so you don't feel like you have to do everything right away. And sometimes, when you plan a series, you can build more, and you don't have to do everything in the first class, because it can be a lot to think, okay, I'm going to teach a whole full yoga class with brand new students who have different disabilities, and I don't know what those things are, and I don't know how people respond. And so just to kind of take it slower, or make it a smaller group, or have more support. I think those are the most important things, first, to give yourself a bit of a break. That doesn't have to be perfect, either, that it can be messy and more of a I don't know, like workshopping, kind of figuring out what people need together, like I don't know if I could enter a group like that and necessarily serve everyone correctly the first time. So I think I would need to get to know them more and figure out what they're looking for, and how I could serve them. And also, especially if there are different things going on in the group, you know, I mean, like different types of disability. Isn't that what she said? There's like different kinds of disability in that group. (That's right.)
Jivana Heyman 56:19
So, like, intellectual disability versus physical disability. I mean, people have different needsin that case. So, yeah, I guess I'm just say, start slowly, give yourself a break, try to get support, make a plan, maybe start a series. And what a series could look like, in my mind would be that the first few classes are really about getting to know the students and asking them what they like, maybe trying different things, trying simple, like a chair yoga sequence. I probably would start in the chair, with everyone seated in a chair, and just do chair poses in the beginning. That way I'm getting to know students. Some of them might be bored, if they're ready to do yoga and get on a mat, that might be hard, but still, I would just kind of want everyone on the same level to start, and then over time, I would start maybe integrating mat practice, and that's something that I cover in detail in the Accessible Yoga training and also in my book, The Teacher's Guide to Accessible Yoga. So if you can't come to my training, that book might be helpful for you, Traci. I don't know if you've seen my book, but I talk about this. That's pretty much what the book is about, actually, answering your question. That's why I wrote the book, Traci, for you! Kind of true, actually. I mean, I wrote the book for yoga teachers to get this kind of support, you know. So I have a lot to say, I think the books that was 300 pages long. So let's see, what else can I say briefly? Just that the skill of teaching an integrated mat and chair class, I think, is something that you can work on over time. I think it's possible, but it works best if it's a group that you know a little bit, already. So I keep going back to this idea of, you know, walking into a new group versus working with a group that I already know. And it's a very different thing. And I don't think we talk about that enough in yoga teaching, that the teaching that we do with new students versus people who we worked with for a while is just a totally different thing. Once you know the students and they know you, it just changes the dynamic in the class. You usually don't have to say as much and you can also plan specifically for the individuals within the group. When it's a new group, and I don't know them, it's going to be a real, like, simple chair yoga session, yeah. How does that sound? Deanna, I don't know if you had thoughts, because you know much everything I say these days.
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:42
I was also going to say that you have a great concept that you wrote about in your book you talk about in your trainings, and I think we have a blog post about it on the website that we'll link to. But would your concept of preparing separately, practicing together apply here?
Jivana Heyman 58:59
Yeah, definitely. So that's what I was kind of hinting at earlier, like that, the skill of teaching mat and chair simultaneously is what you're talking about. And the skill I teach is prepare separately, practice together. And that means that you prepare the people on the mat and the chair separately when you're teaching asana, or even in pranayama, potentially, but usually in asana, and then practice together. So you want to find what's different on the mat and in the chair, and you teach that separately, and then you think what's the same, and you teach that together. So you create an integrated experience where everyone is practicing together, rather than practicing sequentially, where you would like teach the chair pose and then you teach the mat pose, or vice versa. So I think integrating the experience is really, really important in terms of accessibility, that people don't feel left out. And that's the most important thing above all, is that people don't feel left out. That's interesting, though, what I thought you're going to talk about Deanna, the concept I thought you're going to bring up was the ABC's of Accessible Yoga, because I feel like that's just kind of like a broader concept that I share in the book, and that's A for agency, B for boundaries, and C for communication and collaboration. And I would say agency, it's about, you know, recognizing that the students have freedom and agency, and reminding them of that, that they can basically do whatever they want in this class. And I think that's huge whenever we teach yoga, is like reminding the students that they can they have control. It's also trauma informed. But, B is to have boundaries around that experience, so that, yeah, they can do whatever they want, but there's a limitation to what's going to happen. This is a yoga class, so it's not a time for, like, running around and screaming or whatever. It's going to be a time for quiet introspection or something. So like, they have freedom, but there's limitations to that.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:55
There's also limitations based on safety, that everything the students do, you know, they need to keep themselves safe, each other safe, and me, like we need to all be safe in this space, as safe as possible. And C is collaboration that we can come together when there's any tension between someone's agency and the boundaries that we've created of safety, we come together in collaboration to figure out how to resolve that. You know, that might be a quick conversation in the middle of class or something, oh, I need to talk to that student after because they were disturbing the other people, or check in with them because they looked bored. There's sometimes things you have to do before after class, or like, students get frustrated with each other, that's usually what happens. If there's an issue, it's usually between students, like, oh, you took my space or I want the window open, you want it closed. You know what I mean? Like, things like that, like, that's where the tension often comes in classes, is between students, not often, but occasionally comes in, is between students. But anyway, I don't know if that's useful. Anyway, Traci, I hope that I started to answer your question, and that you'll consider, I don't know, looking at my book or come join me for a training. I think you'd really enjoy it. This is what we talk about in detail. Like, detail! Like we could get into language, like word usage, phrasing, sequencing a class, you know, skills for chair yoga by itself. Chairs for adopting mat practice, skills for teaching pranayama and meditation. I mean, I love all that stuff. That's what I do all day. So yeah, thanks, Traci.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:45
Thank you, Traci. And also, if there's a follow up question or you want to respond, you can feel free to leave a follow up SpeakPipe. So, let us know, Traci.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:56
Yeah, follow up question, I'd love to hear it. Or if you go and teach that class, let me know how it goes. How would it go, and what surprised you? Also, if people are listening to this who are teaching and have other support or advice, please share it. I'd love to hear from you. (Thanks so much, Jivana.) Okay, so we're gonna leave it there? (Let's leave it there this week.) All right, thanks, Deanna. Thanks, Sunny, for such an incredible conversation, and thanks to all of you for listening, and I look forward to being with you next time. Okay, bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:34
Bye, everyone.
