Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:40
Okay. Hi, everyone. I'm so excited to be here today with Tristan. Hey Tristan.
Tristan Katz 00:00:44
Hi Jivana. Good to be here with you.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:46
Yes. Thanks so much for joining me. Do you want to introduce yourself briefly or say something?
Tristan Katz 00:00:50
Sure. Yeah, thanks. My name is Tristan Katz my pronouns, at this moment, are they and sometimes he, as I am now referring to it. And I've been in the yoga world, for now, half of my life. I started practicing Yoga in 2020. And went through teacher training in 2015, and taught Yoga for several years before I realized that I didn't really enjoy it. I really wanted to receive the gifts of my practice, and my studentship. And I found that when I entered teacher brain, I stopped receiving the gifts as a student, and everything became about improving my skill set as a teacher. And so I wasn't able to like really immerse myself in my own practice. And so I quit teaching and thought that would be a temporary thing. But it ended up being rather permanent. And soon after that realized that I wanted to support Yoga teachers in the work that they were doing and growing their work. And I particularly wanted to support Yoga teachers and making their spaces more equitable and accessible. And that eventually led me to connecting with you and your work. And now here we are in it. That's like one short little snippet of the story, of course, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 00:02:16
But I mean, also, I would say that your work is mostly on marketing. I mean, right. So that's your area of expertise. More than that, but it seems like you used to help me actually with marketing, and you taught me a lot, which I really appreciate. I learned a lot from you. And I, that's what I want to talk to you today is really to talk about that piece. Like, what is it that Yoga teachers should be aware of, in terms of making their offerings accessible? Kind of outside of the class, in terms of how they, how they market their work, how they talk about it, how they share about it, and well, in any way you're interested in talking about it. But I just want you to have thoughts about that. Like, you know what, because it's one thing to talk about the content of a class and to do a good job and making that accessible. But if you're not doing a good job in the way you're presenting it publicly, it doesn't really help, right?
Tristan Katz 00:03:07
Yeah, absolutely. I have lots I could say, it's certainly more than we have time for. But I think you know, a few things come to mind immediately. One is I think, as teachers, particularly when it comes to growing class sizes, or growing, maybe workshop offerings, or retreats, or things like that, we need to do more than just tell people about our weekly class schedules. That is one of the things that I see most happening on the internet, both in newsletter marketing and in social media, is that Yoga teachers think that they can just post their weekly class schedule, and that's going to attract folks. But, I think we need to do a whole lot more, especially at this moment given the proliferation of online offerings, and, and the fact that there's just so many folks teaching Yoga. I think it's really valuable and important to not just make sure that it's clear, you know, who the classes are centered to serve, or are rather designed to serve, who's being centered in the classes, how accessible they are physically, who, you know, who's, who's included, and who's not included, essentially. I mean, I think we need to be very clear about that. And not from a exclusion place, but from understanding who we're able to serve and center and who we're not yet able to serve and center based on our own training, or lived experiences. I mean, that's obviously a really big part of the conversation, in my opinion. And I think that, connected to that, is also the importance of, of language. And being really intentional, you know, I see so many times people kind of perpetuating this Level One, Level Two, Level Three class or Mixed Space, All Levels Welcome. And I don't want to see that language if it's not actually true, right. I think that there's a lot happening in the Yoga space that is, quote, good marketing, and I think good marketing can cause harm if it's not done with integrity.
Jivana Heyman 00:05:13
Can you clarify that for me?
Tristan Katz 00:05:15
Yeah,
Jivana Heyman 00:05:16
I mean, good marketing, like effective in terms of it reaches people, but it's not actually truthful.
Tristan Katz 00:05:22
Yeah, I mean, I think we can want to make our classes available for quote "All Levels", or we can want to make our classes accessible for folks who are maybe practicing on a mat or in a chair or, or even I think about myself as a Trans person, like, we can want to include Trans people in our classes and make sure they feel safe and welcomed, etc. But, sometimes our intention doesn't match the impact, right? And so when I think about how we language things, I really want to invite teachers to understand, like, this is a conversation that I think in the Accessible Yoga community, we've had a lot: who are we actually prepared to teach? And what is our scope of practice as teachers, right? We're not going to be for every student. That's okay. But I think we need to be transparent about where we are in our own learning and our own unlearning. And I think that if we simply say All Are Welcome, sometimes that's not actually true. And this is the part that's like mismatched, I think that sometimes our marketing can signal inclusion and accessibility. But if we're not actually prepared to back up that signaling with creating change and action in the spaces that we're holding, then we're more likely to to actually exclude people while intending to be inclusive. Does that make sense?
Jivana Heyman 00:06:44
Yeah, I think it's a really great point. I appreciate you saying it. And I think it's so true, I think that well, I see it another way, which is I, I see people who just say like, of course, Yoga is for everyone, and everyone is welcome. And of course, I'm teaching all levels. And of course, of course, like this kind of assumptions of accessibility, that maybe as part of what you're saying, or maybe they're saying explicitly that they are teaching all levels, and they're not. And I think both are dangerous. At the same time, though, like that question about like, am I the teacher for everyone? That's something I do like to explore. Because what I say to people as well, you won't be the teacher for everyone. But you should train to be you should try to be you should make every effort to be just so that whoever does come to you, you can potentially serve to the best of your ability, but you're saying something slightly different is what I'm hearing, can you talk about that you're saying, it depends a bit on your positionality, maybe and your identity.
Tristan Katz 00:07:40
I agree with what you're saying and maybe it's a both/and. Like, I think we should train and prepare ourselves to be able to welcome anybody into a class. And I also think we need to accept that not all students are going to resonate with what we're offering, or who we are as a teacher. For me, given where I'm at, in my personal practice, I don't feel comfortable practicing, in general, with cisgender yoga teachers. And that's just me personally. And so while I understand and while I believe that, for example, cisgender Yoga teachers have a responsibility to understand how to make their spaces more welcoming for Trans students, that is just where I'm at in my personal process, is that my nervous system will not relax into the practice, when I feel that there are unchecked power dynamics. Or where I feel like I can't trust someone right to hold the space intentionally or meaningfully or with great care. And I think that there's a lot of misconceptions in Yoga that like that people have the right to just put your hands on students' bodies without consent. And there's so many misconceptions, right. And that has led to a lack of safety for me in my practice, publicly, out in the world. And so I think this is what I'm trying to say. And I'm just going to like, repeat back the point I said earlier, I agree with you, I think that we as teachers should do our due diligence to make ourselves available for all students, all bodies, all quote "levels". And I also think we need to accept that some students aren't going to connect with us, and that we're not going to be for everybody. And both things are true, I think the 200 hour model is just the beginning. And my hope is that Yoga teachers understand that it's the beginning and commit to further study and further training given, you know, resources and time and capacity, because there's so much that is needed, I think, to hold a truly inclusive, accessible space.
Jivana Heyman 00:09:42
And, you know, our audience is basically, you know, most of the Yoga teachers who are making that step. And so I guess, I wonder if you could speak to what you feel are like the most important things they could do in terms of, especially around this question of like, how they share about their work or how they share about their practice. I mean, maybe you're saying, do they have to do the work? They have to do the training? That's a must.
Tristan Katz 00:10:10
And yeah, I mean, I want to hear, as a student even, and I found this for many years, like I want to hear, not just like who you trained with or what lineages you're part of. But, I want to hear like your values. Like, why do you teach the Yoga that you teach? Why do you center the populations that you center? Why do you care to take your training In this direction or that direction, when I hear about the why, for folks, it leads me to more, I don't want to say trust, but maybe more connection, which might lead to trust. The why for me is really important. Because I think a lot of folks come to Yoga and come to teaching Yoga for so many different reasons. And I know for myself, I don't want to go to a class, if a teacher is only teaching the physical practice and not going to bring in some aspect of of the philosophy, right. And so to me, I think when we share our why and share our values, and share parts of our own practice, this will lead to greater relationship, greater connection and a more meaningful relationship between teacher and student and a more sense of, of who somebody is as a teacher, rather than just seeing folks as like a blank slate with a 200 hour badge or something. Right? And I mean, to this end, I really think it's important to get clear about who we specialize in serving. And being transparent about that. In our marketing, in our in our class descriptions, on our website, you know, and I'm even thinking of myself to since I have scoliosis, some yoga teachers have not known what to do with me when they see my my back curve, right. And so, then I'm left to my own devices to try to figure out the poses and figure out, you know, what props to use, and how to shift my position. And what I want to know as a student is, will you help me in that process? Or is this something that's out of your field, which is totally fine, but if you could make it clear to me, rather than just avoiding me entirely, then that feels like like, we're in greater relationship and integrity around these practices and the responsibility that we have as teachers.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:20
So it feels like, okay, because that seems like two things. Like one thing is, like I heard you say, we need to share about ourselves more. I don't know what, you know, be more transparent about who we are in our marketing and the way we talk about ourselves and our work kind of generally, and that that's going to help us to attract the students who are looking for what we can offer. Yes, I've heard that. But then you're talking about kind of within within the class, that kind of like, that leads to that can lead to deepening of trust, and to building that teacher/student relationship, when you feel like you know, the teacher a little bit, and they're willing to share their journey and like, where they're coming from, and also like, what their training is, like, you mentioned scoliosis, are you saying, it's helpful if a teacher has shared if they have training in that area, or Yoga Therapy, for example?
Tristan Katz 00:13:09
I do, I do look to see I love seeing a list on folks websites of all the trainings people have done, that is personally something that I am really drawn towards, because then I get to have a sense of what somebody's background is. And if I see folks note that they've done trainings around scoliosis, then I will understand that that is more likely I will be supported in that way in that class environment. But if we don't make that stuff clear to people, then we really don't understand what teachers are equipped or trained to hold or teach. And I think that that can lead to a lot of confusion and unsafety, basically.
Jivana Heyman 00:13:46
Yes, I appreciate this a lot. Because, what I see a bit happening, and especially around people in this world of Accessible Yoga is sometimes sometimes we pretend to be service oriented folks, and we want to be like, what is the word almost, to be of service sometimes need to put yourself aside and we focus so like, like, for me, like I always struggle between like talking about myself versus talking about Accessible Yoga as an organization. And like, and yet, I've realized over time that I really do need to talk about myself, like I have to share my story over and over and over again, for people to understand Accessible Yoga and I, sometimes I'll see websites for like, you know, like nonprofit Yoga orgs, or like orgs, that are serving certain communities where there's like, no information about the actual people because they're really trying to focus on the work. And that actually is harder, I think, in a way to connect with like, I want to hear your personal story. And like you said to like, even understand, like, where did you train and why and to like, I love that when I would like pictures of themselves, like maybe outside of the Yoga class, and things they like to do things they they're interested in, like that's really helpful.
Tristan Katz 00:14:57
I think it's that kind of context at this moment is going to help us distinguish, who's I don't want to be negative, but like, who's doing the Core Power Yoga or the Bikram Yoga and who's doing a larger, larger, broader understanding of Yoga, right? And who's offering a larger broader understanding of Yoga. And I think that that background that you're referring to is good marketing and it's good and by good marketing, I mean good relationship and community building and good transparency and, and again, shares like the why and the values and the the trajectory behind somebody's own personal process and experience. That's the part that that makes me feel safer as a student, when I just see folks naming, you know, Asana as the practice and focusing exclusively on these kind of more overt capitalist models of Yoga like Bikram like Core Power. Then I don't feel like I'm going to trust that environment. And I and then what I mean by trust is I don't feel like I'm going to feel trust in the practice and what's being offered. And I don't feel like I'm going to trust that that space is going to be able to hold me because I think that those trainings, those models, that like capitalist commodification of Yoga has, has really removed some of the essence and the core of the teachings and the practice. And to me, that is not an environment that is going to be accessible or inclusive.
Jivana Heyman 00:16:27
That was very clear. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think that you just kind of summed it up for me, and just that. There is a paradox here, which is that in making things available to more people, we have to actually share how we're different. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's what I think we're getting at, because I think sometimes, I think a lot of people like want to do service in the name of Yoga. So, they go to like our large corporate 200 hour, thinking that will help me reach more people, because it's kind of like mainstream, it's very, like, well known and respected. And they're afraid to share about how they're different. Plus, I know a lot of Yoga teachers, generally who are people who have trained to be Yoga teachers who are afraid to teach because they think, "Oh, I don't look like a Yoga teacher." You know, I can't do all the poses, or whatever. And I'm like, No, you are the one who needs to be teaching. Like, the more different you are, the better, like that is actually what's needed in the world. You know, we don't need more of the same, we need the difference.
Tristan Katz 00:17:36
We do. But unfortunately, the Yoga studio model and Western capitalist Yoga industrial complex does not necessarily thrive on the difference, right. And that's an unfortunate truth in this moment. But I agree with you, I think we need to be, I mean, I love hearing folks' stories about "I came to Yoga to help my scoliosis" or "I came to Yoga to help my with my mental health." That kind of background really helps me understand that, again, I just keep coming back to like, what is your why? And to your point, you said, like you that you share your story over and over and over again. And every single time it makes an impact on people, even if they've read it before, right? Even if they've heard you tell it before. I think part of good marketing is repeating ourselves, and repeating the why in different ways over time. And that repetition is something I think yoga teachers are already doing in their classes. Like I always say how many times as Yoga teacher, cue folks and students to breathe in a class, and students are never raising their hands saying, "You already told me to breathe five times today," you know? We need to hear things more than once. And I think sharing the why, sharing the background sharing what led you to share Yoga, and sharing that over time in different ways is going to help folks connect to you and feel more included, depending on what your lived experience and identities are and what your truth is what your why is.
Jivana Heyman 00:19:07
Yeah, and I think sometimes people call it niching. What is it, niching?
Tristan Katz 00:19:13
Yeah, niching down? Yeah, yeah,
Jivana Heyman 00:19:14
Or something. But I actually don't, I think this is actually a much healthier way to think of it. Which is just that like, sharing your difference, you'll attract the people that are looking for you and who might really need you. Like, I mean, I think that's part of it is like, there's so many people out there, there's a lot of Yoga teachers and like, how do we find each other and then celebrating the difference will allow people to find you and to be drawn to you. And so that could be in the class itself. And also, like you said, outside, you have any other thoughts for us about this? I'm just curious if you have any other tips for Yoga teachers? Well, you have a lot. So I mean, people can always find you and yeah, and take your courses and read your writing and learn about marketing that way, but I don't know if you have thoughts, any more thoughts about this?
Tristan Katz 00:20:02
I mean, I have so many and I feel like I've kind of rambled in this, like winding way already, so maybe I should just leave it there. But I do want to say, I think transparency is really key. I think being clear about our values is really key. I think figuring out how to be in integrity, and not just claim that our class classes are for all is really key. There are so many like really important considerations. I don't think that marketing should just be an afterthought. I think our marketing can be a part of our Yoga practice. And we can bring in non harming and truth telling, for example, into our marketing. And I really want to invite Yoga teachers to approach their marketing and their, their growth from that perspective. Like, how can I bring what I'm already teaching into my marketing, and what I'm already trying to practice as a teacher and a student into my marketing? And I think when we can approach it that way, maybe it'll make marketing a little less achy for folks.
Jivana Heyman 00:20:59
Yeah, I love that, I love the idea of making it part of your practice. Because really, I mean, that's what we have to be doing. I think one of the themes in this book is that is like, how are you approaching teaching as an extension of your Yoga practice, rather than this thing you do. It's like teaching is a practice. And so is the way you talk about teaching, which is, or share about teaching, or communicate or build relationships, or build community, a big part of what we're talking about here, that's all a part of your practice. Choosing the place where you're going to teach, for example, where you teach in a studio where you teach in an accessible space or in an inaccessible space. Will you reach out to local community centers or hospitals or whatever, like finding that that's all part of practice, I think, too. And your financial model, how do you charge people? Your kind of your guideline, your ethical guidelines that you follow? Like, do you have a clear refund policy, for example that people can read and that you stick to like, these are all I think, all parts of our practice?
Tristan Katz 00:22:04
Yeah, we can't separate the, quote, business of Yoga from the Yoga, right?
Jivana Heyman 00:22:09
Yeah, as much as we need to. It's hard. It's hard to be. It's hard because Yoga and business are very different things. But it's true. Well, I think we have to do our best to bring Yogic philosophy and concepts into the way we are act in the world, including that business interaction. That relationship. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much, Tristan. Wow,
Tristan Katz 00:22:34
Thank you, Jivana. And I'm really excited for your book project and all the work that you do to make yoga more accessible.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:41
Well, thanks so much for your time. This was incredible. So all right, thank you. Talk to you later.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:42
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
