Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land. Today I'm joined by my special co host, Deanna. Hey, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 0:53
Hello, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 0:54
How are you doing? I am doing well. I am having this conversation with you from Berlin.
Jivana Heyman 1:00
Wow. That's very exciting. It's good to be out of the U.S. these days.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05
Oh, you know, it doesn't really matter where you are. You still feel everything that's happening and support in the way we can.
Jivana Heyman 1:12
Yeah, it's a heavy time. Well, so today is a special episode. This is the final wrap up of this current season of the Accessible Yoga Podcast, where we've been celebrating 30 years that I've been teaching yoga, which is still kind of amazing to me. Makes me feel very old! And I'm glad you can be here with me to kind of do this, have this final conversation, to reflect back on this season. And also you were going to kind of interview me, so maybe I just need to let you do that!
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:44
Yeah, for all the listeners, there's an officially, like a baton pass here through the virtual screen, and Jivana is no longer the host. I'm taking the reins, and we're here to celebrate Jivana's 30 years of teaching, three decades is a long time. Like, that's a lot of practice, that's a lot of learning, and it's been a year of reflecting on your last 30 years. I think, as a listener, like, a great part of that was hearing you talk with your friends. Like, these are folks you've taught with, practiced with, like, some you've quote, unquote, came of age with in the yoga world, and it was fun to see you and listen to you reconnect. And kind of, you know, it's not like your perspectives were the same, either. And so, like, this year, I felt like was a year of mini workshops. Like, how lucky were we to get to listen to all of these teachings from your guests and friends as well as yourself. So I just wanted to say thank you for that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:45
Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. I really enjoyed it too. I didn't really know what it was going to be like, and it was definitely more personal than I expected. You know, like, in that way. Like, there was more of a personal journey by choosing people that I feel pretty closely connected with already, and like you said, people I've been working with for many years. Some of my teachers, which was really great. I'm really grateful to all those incredible guests. And, yeah, being able to do the second half with you has been really great, too. I've really enjoyed your comments, your reflections and questions for me, and the opportunity you gave me to be able to talk about yoga philosophy, which is my favorite thing. And also the listener questions and listener comments, that was really fun. So I've loved it. I mean, I just want to say right away that we're not going away forever, like we're going to take a short break and I'll be back, because I've just enjoyed doing this so much, and really enjoyed doing it with you. So thanks, Deanna.
Jivana Heyman 2:46
Well, thanks for having me here and taking me out of my comfort zone a little bit. So I appreciated that. My voice usually isn't in the forefront, and so this has been a new experience for me, and I'm a little bit more used to it now than I was 52 weeks ago.
Jivana Heyman 4:04
You're great at it. I think you have a new career path ahead of you. I've gotten great feedback from a lot of listeners just about how much they enjoy you and your comments and your input. So really, thank you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 4:16
Well, thank you, Jivana, but this is about you. (Okay.) You're the guest in this episode, I need to remind you. And I want to know, what have you learned from these conversations over the last year?
Jivana Heyman 4:26
That's a good question. I think I learned a lot of things. I think there was an opportunity for me to reflect on my journey and on the impact yoga has had in my life. And I think that's maybe my main takeaway, is that I feel really blessed to have been exposed to yoga. As a child, my grandmother taught me, in fact, literally, my earliest memories beyond just like visual memories of like the floor, my first like memories of interacting with someone, were pretty much my grandmother doing yoga. And I just feel like this podcast has been an opportunity for me to reflect on that, you know, the impact yoga has had in my life, and how lucky I've been to be exposed to those teachings, and how lucky we all are. I mean, the yoga world...I feel like we have this incredible resource at our disposal that we sometimes forget to appreciate, you know, like the value that exists within these teachings, and that it's this precious gift. And to me, I think in these conversations, I'm reminded that I've been trying for like, pretty much my entire adult life to give back in some way, to, like, appreciate what I've received, that gift I've received, of yoga, and to find a way to give back. That's what Accessible Yoga is, pretty much, it's just an effort to give back, because it's just been such an overwhelmingly positive and incredibly transformative part of my life. Not only practicing, but also teaching and sharing yoga has just been the best thing that's ever happened to me. So I just feel like, for me, these episodes have been an opportunity to appreciate that 30 years of doing something I love doing, 30 years of teaching yoga, which again, is like this incredible gift to me. In fact, I find that teaching in itself, has been almost more impactful than just practicing, like the process of teaching and attempting to share yoga has kind of made me practice more and in a more intensive way than I might have otherwise, like it's kept me focused on the teachings. I think I'm more of like a giver and like a caretaker, and so for me, teaching has allowed me to continually go back to the teachings, right? It's given me a reason to practice. So often my practice is literally in service of teaching. You know, I'll be preparing for a class, and I'll practice what I'm going to teach, or I'll be doing my practice. And while I'm practicing, I'm reflecting on how could I share this? How could I teach this? Oh, this would be something I could share with that group, or I could do it this way. And also with these conversations, I think it's been an opportunity to see that, how that's happened for other people, too -- like, to hear other people's stories, you know, other teachers. Pretty much everyone who I interviewed is a yoga teacher, I think. And I think so many people feel the same way, like, that it's an honor to teach and that they gain so much from that opportunity to serve in the name of yoga.
Deanna Michalopoulos 7:31
That's beautiful, Jivana, and it kind of makes me think of the relationship. I'm not a teacher, you know, I'm a practitioner, but, you know, I think about you and my teachers and how much of what they share, you know, yoga is a living tradition, and it's been passed down, but also there's like a sense of youness in the practice, right, that like maybe necessarily needs to be there, like you've practiced and embodied a teaching so you want to share it with others. And I think that's sort of like a beautiful thing, because maybe with the teachings of yoga, you're kind of passing along a little bit of yourself, and then it's this whole process. We're all sharing a little bit of ourselves with each other, which is, like, truly, if we're all one, one spirit, one sense of consciousness, like, it's a beautiful, beautiful image that you gave.
Jivana Heyman 8:19
Yeah, that is beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 8:32
I really want to thank OfferingTree for sponsoring this podcast. Thank you, OfferingTree! I know running a yoga business means juggling, scheduling, payments, marketing and more. And OfferingTree really gets it. They built an all in one platform specifically for yoga professionals handling all the things, the scheduling, the payments, the marketing and even your website. And what I love is they're not just a software company, they're a community, supporting you every step of the way, and my listeners get 50% off your first three months, or 15% off an entire year at offeringtree.com/accessibleyoga. Again, that's offeringtree.com/accessibleyoga. You can find that link in our show notes as well. Thanks again, OfferingTree.
Jivana Heyman 9:32
It's interesting because I think, yeah, it's like both/and. It's like, yes, we have our individual personalities that we bring and I know I bring that to my teaching, but at the same time, I think the goal is to kind of to be a vessel and to allow the teachings to move through me. For me, at least, that's what my goal is as a yoga teacher is to get out of the way as much as I can and to let the teachings come through. But I can't help but to use my mind and my body and my personality in that way, right? In a way that's the goal, you know, is to be a vehicle for spirit and for spiritual teachings, to work through us in a way that I think that's the goal of a yoga practice. And that's the other thing I think I found through these conversations, is the kind of undercurrent of service that we barely talk about, but how much service is part of what yoga is, Karma Yoga, I think that sometimes is lost in contemporary conversations about yoga, is the service orientation. And not only is it lost, I think it's potentially misunderstood, because it's often perceived as, like, I don't know, something that nice, generous people do, right? Like kind, nice people do, and that might be true, but actually, I'd say that service is literally just a practice. It is the ultimate practice of yoga. It's something that we do in a way for our own benefit, like when you serve in any capacity, you benefit from doing so. You practice yoga when you're doing that, right. When you serve, you're doing yoga because you're trying to release your attachment to the outcome of your actions. You're trying to release your ego's attachment to it, which is beneficial for you. In other words, I gain from doing service. I benefit from it. Do you know what I'm saying? (Absolutely.) Yeah. Do you know that famous, that prayer of St. Francis? It's in giving that we receive, and I literally think that is the truth. It's not just hyperbole. It's literally like, it is in giving that we receive, because we get to experience the joy of that energy moving through us, and we get to see the impact, the beneficial impact it has. You get to see someone's peaceful face, or their smiling face after they practice, and that is such an incredible gift to feel like you've had a positive impact in the world. It's really there's nothing like it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 12:00
Especially in these times, I feel like that's a very important lesson to have. You know, we need service now more than ever. It almost feels like, you know, cracking a code, so to speak, right, to like, how do we improve our world? And it feels like service is the pathway for that to happen, like everyone should be more service oriented.
Jivana Heyman 12:19
Yeah. And actually so many people are. I saw it in the conversations I had with my guests, but also I see it in the world every day. That so many people naturally serve, you know, caregivers, parents and people who care for their parents and people who work in service industry, nurses, teachers. You know, it's just so integrated into our lives, like people do, that, they give selflessly, and I don't know if we appreciate it enough. In fact, I would say the opposite. I think our culture and capitalism tends to prioritize taking and hoarding, which is the opposite of yoga, right? Yoga is about non-hoarding and non-attachment, non-greed. And so I think yoga is just reminding us of what works, you know, of how to be happy, how to find joy and peace. And I think that's through service. I mean, it could be a question of morality, on the one hand, but I also think it's just a question of practice, of like, finding the an effective practice of yoga. And I think being able to serve in the name of teaching yoga is really such an incredible gift is what I'm trying to get at. The point I was trying to make, is just like it's a gift for me. I can't speak for every other yoga teacher, although I imagine, if you're a yoga teacher and listening to this, you know what I'm talking about, that teaching is just an incredible gift. Like we get more than our students. It's almost like when you teach a yoga class, there's a feeling that, like you've done that class, and more. Like, it's like the students are benefiting, but you somehow get more benefit. It's incredible, really.
Deanna Michalopoulos 14:05
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. It's beautiful. Shifting gears a little bit, Jivana, what I loved about this season is that we invited our listeners to leave us questions and even voicemails. I loved hearing our listener voices and hearing their questions and comments. And we do have one last voicemail to share, and this is from our podcast editor, Mikus. (Yay!) We love you, Mikus, thanks for supporting us this season, and I'm going to go ahead and play their voicemail.
Mikus 14:37
Hi, Jivana. Hi, Deanna. It's Mikus, my pronouns are they/them. I want to say it's been so wonderful being able to edit these podcasts and listen to each conversation. They've been so moving. I was especially moved by Oneika's conversation and her clarity around and the decision to leave Rikers Island in her work there as the harm it was bringing her. I can relate to that very much within my own position and circumstance as being a caregiver, from facing abuse, from having a lack of resource and support. And it always brings me back to Patanjali's Yoga Sutras of overcoming the obstacles on one's path and the kleshas, and how my practice has been so rooted in helping me work through those moments. And yeah, I appreciate you all. Much love. Thank you all.
Jivana Heyman 15:35
That's so nice. Thanks, Mikus. Thanks for that voicemail, and thank you for all your work on the podcast, like Deanna said, I really appreciate it too, making these episodes sound good, you know, putting it all together. It's been really, really amazing. And thanks for that comment, and I'm sorry that you've had that experience, and I hope you're finding support now, and I agree with you around what Oneika shared and her story. It's really, really compelling. In fact, her book is still not out yet. I think it's coming out in a few months, but hopefully you'll get a chance to get to read it when it does come out, and it's really beautiful. She shares in detail about her journey offering yoga and mindfulness in at Rikers Island, which is a prison in New York, and it's just really compelling the way she shares. So thanks, Oneika. And I mean, I feel like there's so many examples like that, like I have, I was trying not to, like, single out a particular guest, because I feel like I actually learned something from each of them. I wish we had time. I would actually go through every single episode and talk about something that stayed with me from each of our guests. It's really been such an incredible learning experience. I mean, I hope listeners have had a chance to go through, maybe not all of them, but through most of them, and spend time going back over these incredible people's sharing, right, what they've shared generously with us.
Deanna Michalopoulos 16:59
I loved it because we got to hear about the teachings, but also, you know, we got to hear about their particular experience with the teaching and the context of their lives, which sometimes you don't get in an average yoga class. Because, of course, you know, a teacher doesn't always get personal, and they don't have to, but just hearing the teachings contextualized like, you know, in a life, in a situation, like, that really drives home how powerful they are. And I really connect to that, like the storytelling piece of that.
Jivana Heyman 17:26
I know, I really liked that guiding question that I asked all of the guests, which was, is there one particular or more than one story, practice or experience that stays with you, that you -- something that from your past, that stays with you today, because that's kind of been the theme for me, is looking back over all these years.
Deanna Michalopoulos 17:46
Well, Jivana, it's time. (Uh oh -- what?) I get to ask you that same question! We get to turn the mic on you. So tell us, what is one teaching that's made an impact on your life and continues to today?
Jivana Heyman 18:01
That's a hard one. I mean, I already shared earlier about karma yoga service that's on my mind, but I might expand from there just to the idea of non-attachment, I think, probably is the main teaching that I focus on from the yoga teachings, the one that sticks with me the most. I think because it gives me like, a sense experience, when I really reflect on it, a sense of expansiveness that is really powerful. So, I mean, I think what's so funny to me about non-attachment is that I always say it's a double negative. Do you know what I mean? And it's hard to conceive of a double negative. So I like to think of it in the positive, something like freedom, you know, freedom or liberation. And I think you could expand from there. It's like service too. It's that releasing our selfish attachment to the outcome of our actions. So I think of non-attachment kind of is one of these, like underlying teachings, the foundational teachings that connects to almost every other teaching within yoga. So it really stands out for me in that way, but the sense I get about it, when I think about non-attachment, I just have this, like openness, like I feel more open and free, and that really is powerful to me. Yeah. Should I go on? Or is that enough?
Deanna Michalopoulos 19:19
Yeah. Do you reflect on that, like, in your daily life?
Jivana Heyman 19:23
Yeah, pretty much. [laughs] I do. I do. I often reflect on, I don't want to say this...like, when I'm in the middle of a challenging situation, I often think about, what do I think I need from this? Like, what is it that I think I'm lacking that I'm looking for in this situation and that's causing me suffering, that's causing me pain? And I think that's a question of non-attachment, or attachment, really. Like, what am I attached to in this situation? Do you know what I mean? Like, so often I think when I'm upset or disturbed, it's because I have a particular outcome in mind, a particular way that I want to control the universe and my life. And so non-attachment is like a reminder that I don't have control, and that life is fleeting, and, I mean, I don't want to upset anyone, but that, you know, ultimately, it's all going to be gone, right? That's a very painful way to think about it, but it's the truth, that like, basically, nothing is permanent, in terms of this world, like the creation. None of the things that I'm attached to in the form they are in will remain, right? But what does remain? And so non-attachment, to me, is a question of that. What does remain? What is permanent? What will continue on -- past the death of the people I love and past my own death? That's what's so beautiful about yoga. It says that our spirit is eternal, never changing. So, you know, I've lost many people in my life. In fact, I would say that my journey, my spiritual journey, really got what's the word kick started, or something, because when I was in my 20s, I was surrounded by people dying of of AIDS, and going through the loss of so many people who are close to me, really made me face the reality of death, right? And impermanence. And I think impermanence is the heart of spiritual practice, because it asks us, what is permanent, you know, what remains? So I would say that is something I go back to a lot. Yeah. Yeah, does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 21:35
Yeah, those are, those are big questions and I think, haven't we talked about before that there are, you know, about 50% of the people think about death all the time?
Jivana Heyman 21:46
Right. Yeah, I know people who aren't in that group of people who think about death all the time are probably disturbed by this conversation, but hopefully not. I hope it's not disturbing. I think again, it can be uplifting to reflect on that. I mean, we do, we will have to do it eventually. So it's just, why not do it now? You know, prepare. I think spiritual practice, in many ways, is preparation for that, for death and for letting go and also, again, for holding on, you know, for remembering. And I think remembering is a beautiful word too, because I think spiritual practices is not simply about the negative, right? The part that's painful or hard, but actually it's remembering that there's something positive that stays with us, or that we are, right. Not just stays with us, but that's something we can hold on to, our most essential self that never changes. I think that's really the point of all of these teachings and all spiritual practices, which is to connect you with the part of yourself that is unchanging and eternal, so that it's easier to then let go of everything else.
Deanna Michalopoulos 23:05
That's beautiful, and this got so deep, so quick. And we did not even...(You asked!) I did. And also, you know, I do want to also say that if you think you don't, you know, you're unconscious of death all the time. There are some psychologists who say that's a prime motivator for most people. It's just whether you're aware of it or not, right? So this is an important conversation.
Jivana Heyman 23:27
Yeah, you know, Mikus mentioned the kleshas, which I don't feel like we've talked about enough, but they mentioned that the kleshas are something that they work with, and the kleshas are the first section in chapter two, or book two of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, which is the obstacles to our enlightenment. Like, what is in the way. And, well, I can tell you the five. Ignorance is first, the ignorance of our spiritual nature. Next is egoism, and then attachment, aversion, and the fifth one is clinging to bodily life, the fear of death. So literally, Patanjali is saying that, that the final obstacle to our enlightenment is this, yeah, basic fear of death or unwillingness to let go of the body, which Patanjali says exists even in the wise. So it's totally natural to have that, right, even wise people struggle with that. So yeah, it's definitely a big one. It's a big question for all of us. I know. I didn't mean to go there either, but why not? You know that's why I'm glad that I get to be interviewed, because normally I don't go there in my everyday conversations, because people don't ask me that. I usually get to ask the questions.
Deanna Michalopoulos 24:34
Yeah, I'm smiley, but I'll go there.
Jivana Heyman 24:37
Well, thanks. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 24:51
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Deanna Michalopoulos 25:46
Well, here we are. You know, you were looking back on the last 30 years, and maybe this is just going to be a continuation of our conversation now, but what do you want to carry forward in the next 30? What do you hope that the yoga community carries forward in the next 30?
Jivana Heyman 26:00
Gosh, I hope I'm around for 30 years. I guess it's possible. Yeah, it's always interesting to me to talk about the future of yoga, because, you know, I have the utmost faith in these teachings and that they will survive the creation and destruction of many civilizations, literally, like of modern capitalism. I mean, a lot of people are worried about the impact that contemporary yoga practice has on the tradition, but I just, I don't worry about it. I don't worry about yoga. My job is not to take care of yoga, yoga takes care of me. It's like this river, you know, yoga is like this river flowing and I just get to stand in the river and it just flows around me. Like, I'm not concerned about where it's going so much, because I think it has a life of its own. And, you know, I think whatever becomes of human society in the next 30 years, I hope it's positive. I hope that we can care for each other and shift away from the selfish mentality at the heart of capitalism, into something more reflective of spiritual teachings that I think, you know, not just in yoga, but I think in every spiritual tradition, there's a ultimate kind of kindness, and, you know, effort to see yourself in your neighbor that I think is lacking in contemporary Western culture. So I hope that yoga helps to remind people of that, right, remind us of our intimate connection with all other beings. And I hope that message exists in the future as well, you know, but the yoga teachings have been around for 1000s of years. Literally. I mean, we're talking about at least...I mean, the written documentation is at least 3000 years old, if not older. Some of the oldest written, you know, documents that exist were from yoga, the yoga tradition, and I know these teachings existed long before that in other forms, you know, before they were written and put down on paper and the form that we see them. And so I don't worry about what the next 30 years will do to yoga, I worry about what we'll do to ourselves, maybe, as humans. But you know, yoga is always there for us. The truth is always there, you know, for people who are willing to look at it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 28:35
Thank you so much, Jivana. (Yeah.) This was such a great conversation. I'm glad you were the guest this time.
Jivana Heyman 28:43
Yeah, that was fun. I want to do that more. Maybe in our next season, you can interview me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 28:50
Well, every season needs a cliffhanger. Stick around to find out.
Jivana Heyman 28:54
Yeah, we'll see. I know, I know. We are going to make minor changes for the next season, but it'll be pretty much, I think, the same, and we'll be back soon. It'll be probably just a couple months break before we return. But before we go, I really want to spend a little time thanking people. You know, first I thanked you already, and we thanked Mikus. I also want to thank Brina, Brina Lord, who has been kind of doing the admin side of all the podcast's everything. Thank you so much, Brina. And I'll just mention the rest of our team. You know, Robyn, who does so much work for Accessible Yoga. And also we have Becky and Crunch, who I really appreciate, and I hope I'm not forgetting anyone. But also I want to thank our sponsors. So this, you know, in the podcast you hear ads. So, you know, hopefully you've heard ads in this episode as well. But I want to say these ads are really essential, because it pays for all the staff time to make this possible, to be able to produce this podcast, which is a free offering, you know. So a podcast is just that. It's a free educational tool that's available for people. And so I appreciate OfferingTree and beYogi both for supporting me and supporting the Accessible Yoga Podcast for so long, basically this whole season. And you know, it means a lot to me that they are invested in a platform like this and allowing me to to talk to so many people and make this information available to all of our listeners for free. So thank you OfferingTree. Thank you beYogi. I really appreciate it. Anyone else I missed, Deanna, that I should thank? Of course I could thank you again.
Deanna Michalopoulos 30:35
Oh, no, no, you have it covered. Thank you to everybody for making this possible. We have such a great team. It's really lovely when you work in a system and everyone is a yoga practitioner. I have to say it makes a difference.
Jivana Heyman 30:47
It is a great team. I know I really I'm so grateful. It goes really seamlessly, most, all the time. And again, I want to thank anyone who's called in with a message also, or written a comment that we've been able to read on the air. I really appreciate your willingness to put yourself out there in that way. I hope we can do that again. I love that part. I wish we could do it more. I wish we could have more listener questions, but I don't know how to get people to do it. So if people have ideas about how to get people to call in more, I want to hear that. And again, thank you to the incredible guests we've had. These 30 guests have just meant so much to me, so many friends, teachers, colleagues, people I admire, so much. So I appreciate their time and willingness to share, again, for free, right? Just to talk to me and share it with our listeners. It's been really, really beautiful, and I'm very grateful. So thanks, everyone. Thanks guests and thanks listeners just for being here and listening to me and to Deanna for this whole year, now. It's been a year, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 31:47
Yeah, a lot changes in a year, doesn't it?
Jivana Heyman 31:51
Yes, and a lot doesn't change, too. So yes, everything changes and kind of the same, yes, but thanks everyone. Thanks listeners. It really means a lot to me. If you've listened, if you've shared the podcast with someone, if you've liked it, or, you know, subscribed, all those things you do with podcasts. I don't really know what they are, but whatever you've done to help keep this going, I really appreciate it, and hopefully you'll be back listening again in a couple months when we return. Okay, all right, thanks, everyone.
Deanna Michalopoulos 32:23
Thanks, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 32:24
Bye, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 32:25
Bye, Jivana. Til' next time.
Jivana Heyman 32:27
Okay, take care, everyone. Bye.
