Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land. And it is a beautiful day today, and here it is in winter, and yet it's just sunny and warm. And I'm feeling very grateful for that, because I grew up on the East Coast, in the U.S., in Connecticut, and it was cold. So hopefully wherever you are, you're comfortable, no matter what the weather is like. I hope it's okay, but I'm feeling very grateful today, and also grateful for this conversation with one of my teachers, Swami Ramananda. So, I'm excited to share this conversation with you and to share him with you, because he's just been such an important part of my life. He's someone I've trained with and worked with, and he's been a mentor of mine for decades. So I'm just really grateful to him for being on the podcast with me and for sharing some of his wisdom in this episode. I think you'll really love it. He has some incredible insights. He's just very straightforward and clear in the way he shares about the practice and I love that about him. I do want to mention, though, that, you know, I have left the organization that he is part of, Integral Yoga. I had studied with Integral Yoga and worked for Integral Yoga for many, many years, and then left because the founder, Swami Satchidananda, was having sexual relationships with many students and well, by the time I figured it out, he'd already died, but I couldn't be part of the organization anymore. So it's always hard for me to talk about that time without bringing up that piece of it, but I do want to say that I still wanted to share Swami Ramananda and have a conversation with him on the podcast, because I just love and admire him so much. I mean, I think it's important to recognize that there are still some good people there in the organization, and I know that they're trying their hardest to make the best of a horrible situation. So I'm grateful to him and for the others who have stayed in touch with me after I left the organization, so I'll just leave it at that. I'd love to hear from you. If you have any questions about that, I'm happy to share more. You can always leave me a voicemail or a written message through the links that are in the show notes here, and I'll leave you with my conversation with Swami Ramananda.
Jivana Heyman 3:23
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Jivana Heyman 4:19
Hi everyone, and hi, Ramananda, thank you so much for being here.
Swami Ramananda 4:23
Thank you for welcoming me here. Glad to spend some time with you. How are you very well, very well. Fortunate living here in San Francisco with the beautiful center. San Francisco weather, so many good things to be grateful for.
Jivana Heyman 4:39
Okay, I don't know about the weather, but sure! [laughs]
Swami Ramananda 4:43
Well, it's fall, it's getting cool, but we have a sunny day today, so it's very nice.
Jivana Heyman 4:51
That's good. I wondered if you could introduce yourself a little bit. I've already done a little before we started, but I thought you'd maybe like to say something.
Swami Ramananda 4:59
Sure, sure. What shall I say? I'm a monk in the yoga tradition initiated by my guru, Swami Satchidananda in the sannyas order. I got involved in my 20s, and yoga has been such an important element of my life, I really made it my path, and I've been serving in one of our institutes, in Yogaville, in New York, or here in San Francisco, for a long time, almost 50 years. Almost.
Jivana Heyman 5:31
Almost 50 years. That's pretty incredible.
Swami Ramananda 5:34
Yeah. And one of my joys is teaching yoga. I love to practice yoga. I love to share it, because it's so meaningful and has so much potential for healing and transformation of the way that we experience the world. So that's what I'm all about.
Jivana Heyman 5:52
Yeah, and I do want to talk about what that means, being a monk, because I think for a lot of people, they're maybe even not familiar with that, that we even have monks in contemporary yoga tradition. Like, it's something people think about as maybe in the past. And we could talk about that now, but I also want to talk about how we know each other, but I don't know if you want to talk about what does it mean to be a monk? Because I feel like it's just so unusual these days, within yoga.
Swami Ramananda 6:20
Yeah, it's true, the male sannyasi, with the word for a monk in this tradition, is kind of an endangered species. It's not probably it's not so natural, but I do think it comes naturally to some people to be single. They don't find a partner. In my case, somehow, I was never that interested in marriage. And when I discovered yoga, it was so profound for me, and I think I recognized that I was really searching for something, and that I was finding it in the practice of yoga. So I became keen to make that my life. So it wasn't a rejection or a fear of relationships and marriage and family, but more just a desire to really go as deep as I could into the practice and teaching of yoga. And then I found so much fulfillment in teaching it, in sharing it, and in dedicating my life in that way. So yeah, it's, it seems like it came kind of naturally to me.
Jivana Heyman 7:32
But it's more than just celibacy. I mean, obviously that's, I mean, that's the part that people often focus on. But you know, it seems like there's this other piece of it that's so important, right?
Swami Ramananda 7:43
Yeah, yeah. Well, the service is so fulfilling, and it's unique to live a life where you don't really worry about supporting yourself. I don't have to worry about making money. I'm supported by the organization that I serve, and that enables me to dedicate my time and energy to helping to run these yoga centers that I've lived in, creating programming that's meaningful for people, spiritual counseling, teaching classes, and training teachers, which I find so rewarding. So yeah, one of the vows is selfless service and and, of course, you know, there are moments when I feel lonely and I think, oh, you know, the mind thinks, oh, a partner would be so nice someone to be there for you that loves you. But I do experience so much love and connection with people outside of a sexual one, that somehow it's worked beautifully for me.
Jivana Heyman 8:47
But I think for most of your life and your monastic life, you've lived in community. I mean, you haven't really had that. Sometimes we think of monks, you know, I don't know where we got this idea of monks in yoga living alone in a cave, but like, that's not the experience, I don't think, you've had, right?
Swami Ramananda 9:03
It's true. It's true. Yeah, since 1979 I've lived in one of our ashrams or institutes in community with a group of people, where you get to have all the challenges that relationships can create. You rub and scrub each other, you see the selfishness in each other. It's challenging, but there's something rewarding about it. There's this support. There's a support to go deep in practice, to find your way together forward, instead of by yourself facing the world that, in so many ways, is an obstacle. I think of living in community is kind of paddling downstream. When I get tired, I'm still going in the right direction because, because the current is carrying me.
Jivana Heyman 9:59
Oh, I see, like, that's the benefit of the community is the support you get. (Exactly.) Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, sangha ,you know, that word, sangha, that maybe people don't know of, spiritual community, is so important in the tradition, and I don't know if that's talked about enough either. Just like, the importance of having, you know, like minded people around you that...which I think people find in yoga classes often these days, like, you know, maybe students find it if they go to a regular class. I think it can be harder for yoga teachers actually, because often, as teachers outside of an ashram, how do we find that community?
Swami Ramananda 10:38
Yeah, and teachers may even feel like they're sort of in competition with other teachers, for getting students, so that can make it harder. Yeah, I think these days, you know, it's not natural the way that we've separated ourselves from tribe and from living in families and living in large groups, and it's important for us to feel like we belong, to feel safe, to feel supported. So I do think that's one of the things that a good yoga center can offer, is the opportunity to experience community and support from other people that are practicing and have the same ethical kind of intentions to live by spiritual values.
Jivana Heyman 11:26
But can I just ask around that? Like, it seems that there's a focus in yoga on, you know, turning inward and focusing on that, you know, finding what you need inside. And so it feels like a slightly paradoxical that we really do depend on others, and yet the practice is a journey inward to ourselves.
Swami Ramananda 11:50
Yeah, yeah, true, true. But they complement each other. That's what I feel. Because the journey inward is when we practice, when we meditate, when we practice Hatha Yoga, chant mantras, and then in the daily life, there's the intention to stay connected to that spiritual presence that we contact when we meditate, but we spend most of our time engaged in the world, right? Even, as you said before, even as a monk, we weren't separating ourselves, isolating ourselves in the jungle or in a cave in the Himalayas to do practice. We're engaged in the world, in serving and being active, so that they complement each other. And I find that going back to meditation regularly each day enables me to recenter myself, to calm down all the kind of mental activity that gets stirred up when I'm engaged in the world, and to then re-enter my worldly life, the interactions that I have, with a sense of that spiritual presence and the intention to act out of a place of compassion and to feel a sense of guidance from this deeper place within me.
Jivana Heyman 11:51
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the same in family life, you know, just that it can be really difficult to spend all your time with another person or with whatever, and just lose any sense of your own self without having just some practice that supports you, you know, builds you up so that you're not completely dependent on that person. I mean, it's a give and take in a relationship, obviously, but you can't always 100% rely on them, you know, your happiness, you have to find a way to do it yourself. I mean, I could talk about these things with you forever, but I just want to go back to how we knew each other. I mean, I can, maybe I'll talk about a little bit before and after this podcast with you, this conversation, but I just wanted to say with you here, you know, just that you've been such an important teacher for me and a mentor. And I, you know, I think, I can't remember what year it was that we met, but you've had just such an important role in my life, and I just want to say that to you, just offer my gratitude to you, personally. I mean, I've known a lot of yoga teachers and actually a lot of monks, too, in yoga, but I feel like you're the one that always, you know, I feel like you really do it, like you do what you say, and you really do dedicate yourself in the way that you say you do. And that's pretty remarkable, especially for having done it so long. I mean, like you said, almost 50 years now, that you've been dedicated. So, I'm very grateful to you, and for what you've done for me, just the guidance you've given me. I mean, I think we met when I was maybe in an intermediate teacher training, I think, or something, because I was in San Francisco and you would come as a guest during those days.
Swami Ramananda 14:59
Maybe at a retreat to Commonweal, sometimes those groups would go there.
Jivana Heyman 15:04
Yeah, yes. And then, and then you ended up moving to San Francisco, and we got to work together for so long, and that was really great.
Swami Ramananda 15:12
Yeah, that was a blessing for me. I see how you really helped uplift the San Francisco center. You took responsibility for it back then, made some really significant changes, and I was the beneficiary of that, right? You got the students coming in the front door to see the beautiful view, and you got us with an online registration system, right, right? Remember back then, there was people still signing in on paper?
Jivana Heyman 15:48
On paper, right, that's so funny. I know that was like, I don't even know when that was. The 90s, I think, late 90s. Yeah, anyway, but it was just so great to work with you. I mean, I learned so much again, because I think of your dedication and already, even back then, you'd already been a monk for so long, and it was so great to get to work so closely with you and to be with someone who really took it so seriously. I don't know, I just want to say like that, you know, I've been around now, now I'm older, and it's just very special. It just doesn't happen that much. So anyway, I just feel grateful to you for that. Yeah, so I have so many questions for you. I wonder if you could maybe just talk about anything going on for you right now, if there's some practices that you feel, or something in the teachings that are standing out for you, because I just wanted to give you a chance to teach a little bit. I feel like anyone listening could benefit from, you know, a conversation with you about the teachings.
Swami Ramananda 16:54
Thank you. Yeah, it's true that over the years, I go through phases of really being focused on one teaching or another and finding something that finally really makes sense to me that I've heard before. Recently, I heard a quote from this teacher, J. Krishnamurti. Someone asked him about what was his secret for being happy, or why did he seem so content? And he simply answered, "I don't mind what happens." It was such a simple answer, but it really struck me. And not long after that, I had a moment when I was feeling a little, I wouldn't say depressed, but distracted and dissatisfied with the day I was having, and this thought just came really strongly to me, that this moment right now is the only time I have to be happy. There's no such thing as happiness in the future or in the past, and that I can choose, I can decide that this is it. It's not going to get any better, any worse, this is it.
Jivana Heyman 18:07
Yeah, I love that. And I love that quote from Krishnamurti. I actually think I quoted him in one of my books, and that exact quote, because it's so good. And he was one of my grandmother's teachers when he was down here. He was in Ojai, you know, which is right near Santa Barbara. My grandmother studied with J. Krishnamurti and also with Swami Satchidananda. She went to both of them, becuase they were both here. Swami Satchidananda was down here also at that time, and so I don't know when this was, early 60s maybe, or maybe mid 60s. Anyway, she was incredible. But that quote really stands out, because so much of his teaching is very complicated and that one is really down to earth, right? Like, I don't mind, you know, I don't mind what happens. Yeah, I can't remember how you said it, but it's so powerful.
Swami Ramananda 18:59
And what it gets to for me, Jivana, is that, you know, in our culture, we place so much value on our minds and what our minds think and discern and decide, but our minds are not that reliable. Our minds are all shaped by our culture, by the various forms of trauma that we had as young people, by the people around us that are influential. The culture, in so many ways, is bombarding us constantly with messages. It's difficult that to have a mind that's really free of the influence of the culture and of our own past. I mean, if you believe in past life, who knows what happened in our past lives that still reside in the subconscious mind and exert an influence over us. So what I think meditation does for us, it gives us the opportunity to suspend or disengage from that mental activity and not be so wrapped up in it. It's so compelling. It feels so much like who we are, but it's actually not who we are. The mind is an excellent tool that we need to use to function in the world, but we can't trust the reactions that come up in the mind. They're often emotional reactions triggered by the past events in our lives. And it's so helpful to feel like, no, I can step back from that, and I can feel into a spiritual presence that's there that's not my own thoughts. That this presence, this ground of being that we all share, that we all tap into, to have that be alive, to choose to disengage from the dissatisfaction and the discontent and and tap into that place that's naturally content. Wow, what a what a blessing that is.
Jivana Heyman 21:05
Right. And actually, I wonder if you could talk more about meditation. Because, you know, that's the book I'm currently writing is about yoga meditation and I learned a lot of it from you. I wonder if you could talk about that, you know, meditation in the yoga tradition, a little bit because I think people have maybe a limited idea sometimes about what meditation is. And in yoga, there's really so many ways to practice.
Swami Ramananda 21:31
True, true. In the yogic tradition, especially the way that my teacher, Swami Satchidananda, taught, there isn't one way, but there is one essential purpose, and that purpose is to disengage from our personal, mental, ego identity, right? The story that we've created about who we are and how the world works, and all of that that's kind of locked in, that's kind of de-fined us. He used to say, "We were fine, and then we got de-fined." And our story, our personal identity, limits the way that we can understand and what we can feel and experience. So meditation, to me, is all about disengaging from that, even temporarily, freeing ourselves from thinking that that's who we are, and not creating new thoughts, but actually finding an experience that arises when the thoughts subside, as the thoughts diminish. And of course, to do that, we do need some technique. It's not easy to do that. We're so compelled by our thoughts and so wrapped up in them. So some kind of technique where you focus on the repetition of a mantra, where you focus on watching the breath, or a technique where you simply step back again and again and again, stand apart, like standing on the banks of a stream. You stand apart from the stream of your thinking, and you gradually disengage yourself from it, whatever method works.
Jivana Heyman 23:11
Yeah, and you know, since you've been meditating for so long, I wonder if you could talk about maybe, how it translates into your everyday life, because I feel like, you know, for a lot of us, we get meditation a little bit, like we get the feeling of, oh, that feels relaxing. Or, you know, I get a little spaciousness through that practice. And that's a nice feeling to bring into your life, but I feel like what you just said about, you know, getting a little space, I think, is how you're saying it, a little space from your thoughts and from your mind, I feel like that can change everything. I mean, the way you are in your life.
Swami Ramananda 23:49
So true, so true. I mean, anyone, as you say, anyone, can experience even at a very beginning stage of learning to meditate, can experience some ability to focus the mind. You train the mind to focus. The mind gets a little more clear. But as you practice over time, and this is what I've experienced, you learn not to be so wrapped up in the thoughts. In the daily life as you're engaged, you have a little bit of a presence along with your mind, so that as your mind reacts or as your mind gets disturbed or upset, you're not immediately caught up in it. It doesn't mean that you don't get emotional. Sure, you get angry, somebody makes you angry, or you get anxious. I know I get anxious. That's my tendency. (I don't believe you!) But along with that anxiousness that I feel, there's another kind of element there that isn't anxious, right? There's a presence. I don't know how to say it, but you develop that presence like a shadow that's with you, that's not lost in the thoughts, and that enables you to pause, instead of automatically get carried away. Again, I use the stream analogy. You know, when the mind is like, really upset, you get swept away, swept off your feet and swept downstream. Right? You're not making any choices. You end up doing things that you regret later, but if you have the ability to see what's happening and step out of that stream, that strong current, and not be carried downstream by it, then you can make choices. And maybe the choice is, I need to take a break. This is upsetting to me. I need to calm myself down, but at least you're not totally lost in the reaction. And that's a powerful thing. It changes the way that we respond to what happens, so there's some choice in it. There's some consciousness in what we choose. And the bottom line, we can do a lot better to not hurt each other, right? As often when somebody makes us anxious or angry, the first knee jerk reaction, is to get back at them, right, to say something, to hurt back. But that's that never helps. And I love non violent communication, for the way that trains us to understand what's coming, what's happening around us and see it for what it is, and look for the need that's being expressed there in someone's hurt. Things like that become possible.
Jivana Heyman 26:51
And I really appreciate that, because I do think that is maybe not spoken of enough, meaning like the meditation isn't just about the time you spend during practice, but the way it changes you, and the way you relate to your own mind. I often talk about that, that it's a inner relationship, that you can improve your relationship with yourself, you know, like that's your primary relationship. And I don't think, maybe outside of psychology, where there is a lot of work on that, right, like in therapy, I feel like yoga does it too, but we don't often just say it, like that that's what we're doing. And you said it really clearly, that giving yourself space to respond more consciously. But I just want to say, like, maybe the challenge, I think, can come if you have trauma, or if you tend to repress your feelings, or, like, you know, that world of spiritual bypassing, where there's a tendency, from some yoga people, to use it as an avoidance mechanism. Just wonder if you could talk about that, like, how do you avoid that?
Swami Ramananda 27:59
Yeah, it's a great point, and it's so true, because the painful emotions that we experience are not fun to be with. And I think that oftentimes, any of us, all of us, want to run away from them, and that's easiest done by either repressing them or being too busy to deal with them. So busyness can be kind of an addiction, right, to prevent us from facing this painful feeling that I have about being hurt or anxious. But meditation, again, can help us pause and allow ourselves to be with if there is a pillar of contentment and a sense of inner okayness that's there along with all the stuff that's going through my mind, then I can...the word that's often used, I can practice being mindful, even of my mind. I can have some compassion for the mind that's suffering that way, and allow myself to sit with it. Thich Nhat Hanh says, just like an older brother or sister would sit with their sibling and comfort them and be with them, we can learn to be with our own upset mind, with an open heart, with compassion for ourselves, and instead of feeling disappointed or ashamed because I got upset, I should know better or or any number of emotions we often layer on top of the original feeling you were having. For example, I'll just give one example that I've experienced myself so much when someone really hurts us, it's much more fun to feel angry at them and to point the finger at them, but that anger is just layered on top of the original feeling of being hurt. Which is hard. It's hard to feel bad, but that's what yoga can offer us, is the opportunity not to be lost in all of that dynamic, but have a chance to be with it and and see it, and have compassion for ourselves. Almost like a parent for our mind, that kind of has a lot of energy, but sometimes it's misguided and needs to be educated.
Jivana Heyman 30:29
I love that. It's like parenting ourselves. (Parenting ourselves, yeah.) Yeah, taking care of ourselves in that way. I don't know if we think about that enough. I mean, I hear people talking about rest a lot in the yoga world these days, like, it's pretty popular theme, and that's great, but I think to me, it goes a little further than just resting. It's like, how do you relate to yourself? How do you talk to yourself? What is the quality of that inner voice? I often ask people to reflect on, you know, are you speaking to yourself the way you would talk to somebody else?
Swami Ramananda 31:03
Yeah, yeah. That's why the analogy, I love the analogy of the parent. As a parent, I mean, I'm sure parents have difficult moments with their children. (Yes, we do!) Yeah, but their intention is always loving. They love that child, and they want to do anything they can to help it. So if we approach our own minds, our upset minds, our difficult moments with that kind of care, we open our heart to ourselves, we can bring healing to those areas where we've experienced trauma. And where there's still kind of a psychic knot tied up inside of us, you know, we can shine the light of our caring awareness. This is one of the most basic things in addressing pain. When we have physical pain, we know that the pain itself isn't the problem, it's a symptom of something that's wrong. And you know, of course, we can take pain reliever, but it doesn't make the problem go away. So we know that we need to find out what's causing the pain. So when you have psychological pain, when we're hurting, when we're upset, it's so helpful to have caring attention to go into it, to look at it, to be with it, and allow it to release and come into our awareness. That can be so healing. So if we can expose the mind to that deeper, kind of, content presence, that, to me, brings the deepest healing.
Jivana Heyman 32:42
So can you say that again? I mean, would you say that meditation is that then? I mean, because I don't know if most people would define meditation that way.
Swami Ramananda 32:52
Yeah, yeah. Meditation is bringing into a presence, an experience of something that's there within us, a natural sense of goodness, of wholeness, of connection, connection with the ground of being that we all share, where we're all united, right? But our physical eyes, our minds, see the separation, but in the heart, in that spiritual level, we feel the sense of connection. It's not a thought about connection, which you know you can have all beautiful thoughts, you can quote from the scriptures or from the teachers, the Masters, but to experience this natural sense of connection and completeness in yourself, and be able to bring that presence, make that presence more and more alive in you, then it really has an impact in the way that you interact with the world, because you're not needing so much from the world already. And you're just more aware of the mind and not completely lost in it, as all that you are. We need to use the mind, but we don't want to experience ourselves only as the mind. That's the fundamental problem.
Jivana Heyman 34:16
And I heard you use the word needing, which I think is really great, because you're like, mixing so many of the teachings into what your response is, because I know they're just part of you, but I feel like you're bringing in non-attachment there too. You know, just like the importance of not focusing on what you need so much in your interactions.
Swami Ramananda 34:38
Right. It gets us into trouble so many times when we think of something, the completion of a project, or the love of another person or some possession, we think of that those things as the source of our stability or our happiness. That that creates so many problems, it's a setup for misery, because then we're dependent on something. The thing that we have to keep in mind when we talk about non-attachment or dispassion, doesn't mean that we don't enjoy having things. Doesn't mean that we don't have sensual pleasure. Wonderful -- enjoy the world! Enjoy things, enjoy our goals and completing our goals, accomplishing things, but not be dependent on them, not see them as the source of our content and our peace of mind. That's a challenging practice, and that's a lifelong practice.
Jivana Heyman 35:35
Yeah, yeah, that's a hard one. [laughs]
Swami Ramananda 35:38
That's hard, but that's why we practice. That's why we're given another chance every day to try again.
Jivana Heyman 35:46
I think that one is particularly hard for householders, I would just say, maybe for everybody, it's human nature. But, you know, when you have a partner or children or whatever, or parent, I guess everyone has parents. But, I mean, we're just torn so many directions from the needs of others, and then we get caught up in those relationships, and they naturally, become dependent, like it's just unavoidable, so it can be really hard to find that kind of neutrality.
Swami Ramananda 36:16
Absolutely I agree. I agree, and especially, like you, say, a householder that has a home. To have children, you need to have a good home for your children. You need to have financial stability to support them. All of those things are very important.
Jivana Heyman 36:34
Is it easier for you as a monk, then?
Swami Ramananda 36:35
Maybe so, maybe so in that regard. In that regard, maybe what's easier. What you don't have as a monk, is the love of another person, kind of, you know, cuddling you at night, comforting you when things go wrong. Yeah, you don't have the same kind of intimate relationship. But hopefully, as a monk, you develop a relationship with that inner presence, with that Divine presence within, but I just am agreeing with you that I think householder life makes it particularly difficult not to be attached to all the things that you need. You need to have them. But somehow, and we haven't talked about this, but somehow the universe, mysteriously, we don't understand how it works, the universe seems to bring into our lives those things that make us experience that, right? Years ago, a friend of mine, for example, got a call at work from the fire department, his house burned down while he was at work one day. It turned out there were insects somewhere in the attic that, due to their activity, they ended up shorting out some wires, and their house caught fire and whole house burned down. He lost everything! So of course, I don't wish that kind of tragedy, but you don't have to look for it. The universe seems to bring our lives these things that are lessons. And of course, we fight against them, and we, you know, we see them as bad things. But often what comes, just as Krishnamurti says, if we can accept it as somehow part of our learning experience, what a difference that makes to shift our response to some difficult moment and think there's an opportunity.
Jivana Heyman 38:36
Right. I mean, eventually we lose all the things. I mean, I hate to say, right, eventually it all goes, either they go or we go like, you can't hold on in the end.
Swami Ramananda 38:47
Yeah. I'm in my 70s, and I'm getting wrinkled, my hair is gray, my strength isn't quite what it was. I'm working on it, gradually. I mean, we've seen in our parents and in our grandparents as we were growing up, we see how they gradually lose the capacity to even control their own bodily functions. It's just a part of life, and maybe that's ultimately what we're supposed to learn by aging and dying, is that we can't depend on this existence, but tough. Yeah, these are big lessons.
Jivana Heyman 39:24
I appreciate that. I love to learn from you. I mean, I could talk to you forever, but I don't want to keep you too long. So anything else that you wanted to share, I don't know if there's any other thoughts?
Swami Ramananda 39:33
I'll share one other thought. It didn't come naturally to me, but in times when I'm really distressed or confused that I don't have the ability to like, step back and be so thoughtful and conscious, I've learned to pray for guidance. I've learned to just acknowledge, I'm incapable of getting that clarity and that discernment that I would like to have, and I find myself just closing my eyes and reaching out, in the way that I do personally, for guidance. To me, that means that I'm recognizing my inability to know the answer myself, and I'm willing to receive a message from beyond my own mind, even if I don't like it. I'm willing to receive it, even if I'm guided to do something that's uncomfortable for me or doesn't make me look good, but when I'm sincerely opening myself in that way for guidance, I always feel like I get that guidance. It's just to me another way of separating myself from the distress of my mind and finding my way to a message or an impulse that comes from beyond my mind. It's often talked about as surrender, right?
Jivana Heyman 41:10
Yeah, but it's such a great example of how, like, yoga offers another path to meditation through prayer, through devotion. The Bhakti Yoga tradition, like, it's such a big part of yoga, but again, I don't think contemporary practice, it's always talked about in that way. I think people think of Bhakti Yoga these days as chanting or something, or having an altar, even. But this part, I think, is so helpful, you know, just shifting that relationship with our own mind through surrender or trust or faith, right?
Swami Ramananda 41:46
Yeah, our culture is all about self reliance and being stronger with our confidence and our ability to succeed. So yeah, it's kind of contrary to the messages of our culture. But what a beautiful relief it is to just acknowledge the fact that sometimes, yeah, we're too upset or too distressed or too confused, and to acknowledge that and be able to listen in a sincere way, that's been a beautiful practice for me.
Jivana Heyman 42:17
Yeah, well, thank you so much. I mean, already this conversations helped me, because, again, I'm working on this book, and so you, you know, you remind me of a lot of things that I need to include, as usual. And I just, I really appreciate that. So thanks for talking with me. And I'm sure the listeners have enjoyed this. And yeah, just to benefit from all your practice, you know, all of your years of service, and just the work that you do on yourself, which is really incredible.
Swami Ramananda 42:51
Thank you, Jivana, that's I appreciate your your compliments, but I also should say that I've always admired you also, and your focus on serving the marginalized and those who are suppressed in various ways, repressed in various ways. From the very beginning that I knew you, you were focused on serving those that were underserved, making yoga accessible to everyone. The way you've transformed that word accessible and made it a household word, in the world of yoga, everybody knows Accessible Yoga and what that means. By yourself, transforming the meaning of that word as it applies to yoga, and I salute you for that.
Jivana Heyman 43:38
Thank you. I appreciate that. All right. Thank you so much. (Thank you, Jivana.) Okay, thank you.
Jivana Heyman 43:57
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Jivana Heyman 44:49
Okay, welcome back everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:52
Hello, Jivana. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 44:54
I'm good. How are you doing?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:56
I am also good. I really loved listening to your episode with your teacher.
Jivana Heyman 45:01
I know. I'm very grateful that Swami Ramananda agreed to be on the podcast. I've been asking for a long time, and it was fun. It was fun to do that. He definitely is one of my main teachers. I've had a number of teachers, so it's not, I mean, I can't say he's, like, the only one, but he's been an incredibly important teacher for me, and especially because we got to work together for so long too. So like, beyond, like, learning from him, then we ended up working like he was the director and I was the manager of the Integral Yoga Institute in San Francisco. And so we actually got to spend just so much time together. And I kind of got to see him putting all the teachings into action, you know, which is really like a sign, I think, of someone's true practice, or skill, or understanding, or whatever you want to call it. And he was impressive, I have to say, like he really practices what he preaches. And so I just became more and more impressed with him over the years.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:05
That's such a good point not to segue too much. But yeah, you can really tell if someone is living their yoga by seeing them in like, a managerial position. (Yeah, yes.) Which is why I'm like, you know, I love working with you and other teachers I work with, because I'm like, okay, this is the real deal. It's not like you're turning on the yoga, you know, for a 75 minute class or training. It's, yeah. How do you deal with admin? [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 46:34
How do I? You mean, that's the test? [That's the test! How do you deal with admin?] That's the test of your yoga practice? It kind of is, yeah. (Family and admin, maybe.) Family, yeah, like, how are you with your family? Maybe, is the other test. I know, it's so true. How are you when, like, no one's looking kind of thing? Gosh, I hope I passed that test. Is that what you're saying? Was that a compliment?
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:59
That was, I'm sorry to come through! I said, that's why I love working with you! (Thank you. I just wanted you to repeat it.) Yeah, no, just to clarify, yes. (I just wanted to say it again! I'm just teasing.) You are living your yoga.
Jivana Heyman 47:09
I'm just teasing you. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. And yeah, I definitely got that from him, so that's why I ended up working there for so long, honestly, just because it was such a joy to learn from him and see him doing that. And, you know, sometimes it was hard, but he did, he did it. And I think that comes through in the interview. I think you can hear that, the depth of his practice and how he relates it to his life so much. And I also have to say, like, being a monk is pretty impressive, because these days I don't know a lot of monks, especially in the U.S., and it's a hard life, like complete dedication. You know, when you become a monk, you, like, take vow of celibacy and service and non-attachment in the yoga tradition. And, you know, he's really trying to live that. And struggling, I know he struggles too, because now we're friends. I mean, over the years, we've known each other a long time, it's kind of morphed into a friendship, but, um, you know, he has challenges too, but still, he's just a sweet person, and I appreciate that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:12
Yeah, you know, one of my favorite things is kind of like, when I know a teacher very well, or I've, you know, like, practiced with a teacher and then happen to, like, meet their teacher, or practice with their teacher, and you can see that thread of lineage come down. So that was like a joy as well, because you two had such a great conversation about the workings of the mind, right? And meditation and helping, like to, I guess, strengthen your relationship to yourself by working with your mind. And this is like, a thread that you talk about so much in your work, and so, like, that was a very cool part of listening to this, to know, like, okay, wow, okay, I can see this throughline.
Jivana Heyman 48:53
Yeah, yeah, that's probably, I bet that's true for people that don't know him, or that tradition that well, you know, because a lot of the teachers within that tradition had a huge impact on me, you know, other people within Integral Yoga just, yeah, totally changed my life. And also, it's the same tradition that my grandmother had studied in. So it's definitely an influence on me from many different directions. It's a traditional Hatha Yoga lineage, so it's pretty like standard yoga stuff. But I think there is a certain, yeah, I don't know what it is, just clarity around the teachings, honestly, and how to apply them, and, like you say, how to work with the mind. Because that's what, at least in classical yoga, that's what Patanjali says, right, yogas citta vrtti nirodhah, like yoga is the calming of the thoughts in the mind. So that's really what everything we're doing in the name of yoga is about. Does that make sense? I don't know if I said that very clearly, but, you know what I mean.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:56
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And then yeah, there's a clarity to both of your teachings in that way and a straightforwardness that makes it accessible, I think, and relevant to daily life.
Jivana Heyman 50:07
Yeah, I love that about him. I love when he tells stories and gives examples from his own life. And he does that very generously. He had some beautiful, short little analogies in that talk or in that conversation that I appreciated, right? He gave a few quick little examples.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:25
Yes, like the idea of standing apart from the stream of your thinking. I wrote that down, that really stood out to me.
Jivana Heyman 50:31
Yeah, that's a beautiful image. I love that, although I know that could sound maybe like detached or maybe I don't know, or disassociation, but I know what he was trying to say. And I think it is essential in yoga, is that you kind of become the witness of your own mind, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:53
That's what I felt, and I that's what thought came forward. Like, yeah, you're observing, rather than, like, getting swept away in it.
Jivana Heyman 51:01
Yeah, I mean, that's almost like a summary of the yoga teachings, right? Like, that's pretty much it! Like, we're done.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:08
Well, I actually wanted to ask you a question about that, and it's sort of a personal question, although I know you'll share a teaching in there too, but you've been teaching, you know, for 30 years. So, you've had a strong practice, of course, throughout your three decades. So what happens to your mind after so much practice? Like, does your mind fundamentally change? Does your practice change? Do you feel like you're kind of like, inhabiting the same mind that you did three, you know, aside from everything you've learned. Like, do the habits of your mind, do the patterns stay the same, and you just grow adept at returning to practice more often? I don't know if that question makes sense.
Jivana Heyman 51:52
Oh yeah. I mean, that's a great question. I think it's a great question like, what's the point? What's the point of doing this for so long? (I didn't mean that. [laughs]) That's what I'm wondering, what's the point? Is it worth it? Does it work? I remember actually asking that question of another teacher in our in that tradition, Swami Ashokananda. I once, I don't know if I asked him or someone in the room I was with in a class with him, asked him, he'd been meditating for like, 50 years, and someone said, like, how is your mind different when you're meditating than my mind? And he basically said that, I just notice more quickly when my mind wanders during meditation. And I don't think that's what you're asking, but I thought that was a pretty interesting idea. I'm not sure that's my experience yet, but I would say, hmm...on a personal level, again, I don't know if it's only the result of my practice or it simply is getting older, but I definitely feel like I'm more at home and more comfortable with my mind. And I hope It's from practice. I definitely have, I have a very different relationship with my mind than I did 30 plus years ago. And, again, it just could be aging, because I'm sure that most people like, I'm 58 so I'm sure most people in their 50s have a different relationship with their mind than they do in their 20s. I just don't really know like, I can't compare it with having not practiced. Do you know what I mean? But I'll just say that, for me, I definitely, I feel like I have a very different relationship with my mind. And I think it kind of goes back to that analogy he gave about standing by the river. I definitely have a feeling that, well, I'll say it maybe differently another thing, and that's a beautiful analogy that that works for me and how I feel about my mind more now that I can watch it do some stuff, and I don't have to get involved with it, like I watch it respond sometimes, and I don't need to, like, follow that train of thought. That's how I think about it. It's like, do I need to get on that train? Do you know what I mean? Like, like a thought or an emotion will come up, like, anger or frustration or jealousy or whatever, and then I'm like, do I need to get on that train? Like, I literally pause and ask myself that, and I don't think I could have done that before. Like I would have been on the train, going for the ride and then gone whatever, go down the rabbit hole. I don't know, these days sometimes, I mean, if it's a big feeling, it takes over. But smaller things, I don't know, sometimes I just kind of think, okay, you know, watch it go. But what I was going to say is, I think I learned it also from parenting, and not just from my practice, but I'd say that parenting has been like such a major teacher for me and my kids, you know, and just challenging me and questioning me. You know how kids are, just being kids and trying to parent them, and the way they make you look at yourself. Like that, to me, maybe it goes along with it, because, like, I can't separate the -parenting from the practicing piece, but I just see this progression in my life, like, younger before I had kids, versus older, now that I've been through that and practiced for a long time, and I just feel like I have a lot more perspective on my mind.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:13
Yeah, I don't know if you can say that when we get older, like, yes, the expectation is that we get more perspective, we we gain more perspective, we grow wiser, and that's the hope. But I don't know if that's like a given. I feel like maybe your practice and inner work, you know, yours personally, but anybody's personal work, like, plays a big role in that. There's an intentionality. Because you know, like, you know, I'm 43, I know plenty of people my age and older, and it's not a given that you can witness your mind and your patterns, right, as an observer, as you get older through the decades.
Jivana Heyman 55:50
Yeah, I guess that's true, and I saw it in my parents too, like they struggled in a similar way, I think, as they aged. But yeah, I mean, I do feel really lucky and incredibly blessed to have had the opportunity to practice yoga for so long and have access to the teachings. And it's not just the practice. I mean meditation, most importantly, I think, is really the key for me. But also, you know, the teachings that gave me a framework for understanding what my mind was doing. And what I'm always so impressed by, around the yoga teachings, is that here you have teachings that are, you know, some are 1000s of years old. You know, the Sutras at least 1800 years old, I would say, but they're still so pertinent to like, how my mind works now. It's like, so interesting to me that, you know...sometimes the frame is different, because, of course, the Sutras are for monks, like Swami Ramananda, back to him, but still, I think the processes are so similar, the way that my mind functions, the way it creates attachment, and how the attachments are based on my desires and and then that is distracting me from connecting with the true happiness or contentment I find within myself. So I would say the teaching, since I do have to share a teaching, that I think of when you ask me, this is non-attachment. The thing that has stuck with me, maybe the most, through all of these decades, is that. I mean, non-attachment is the most profound and life changing concept that I ever heard of and ever had access to. It just explains so much about the way my mind works and how basically it's always reaching out into the world for happiness, for fulfillment, And that that is what causes suffering, causes my suffering, and that yoga says that that's not where happiness comes from. Happiness arises from within. And that idea, that concept that I have the potential for joy and happiness and peace, whatever word you want to use, that I have that within me, and that it's not found out in the world, that is huge. That changed my life, honestly. Does that make sense? I don't know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:03
Yeah, absolutely. That's a profound teaching. And I appreciated when you discussed it in the episode. Swami Ramananda was saying, like, that doesn't mean that you can't experience pleasure, joy in the world. It's not like, you know, you're kind of renunciate, of like the things that you know, like food or things, or like connections with people. So it's a nuanced thing. You're just relying on those external things for your happiness.
Jivana Heyman 58:33
Exactly. Right. It's the attachment, and I think the experience of them is fine, and I think that's why we're here, and that's why the world exists. The teachings say that the seen exists for the sake of the seer, that the creation, the natural world, exists for the spirit, for the sake of the spirit to experience. That's why it's there. Like it's not a mistake, you know, it's not a mistake. We don't have to deny the reality, I don't think, to have spiritual realization, but what I think what we need to do is to, yeah, not be dependent on those, the dependency, the attachment, the craving, those are the things that cause suffering. And I still go down that road all the time. I mean, I still have tons and tons of attachments, but I think I can recognize them a little more easily now. And like I said, I have a framework for understanding them that I don't think I had in the past. I can see what my mind does and when it's doing it sometimes, which is, you know, I think something. Yeah, it doesn't mean I still don't get upset.
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:45
Yeah, no. And of course, we all have emotional responses for a reason, right? That's like part of being human, like experiencing the range of responses. It's just kind of like how we use our practice to manage that, right? So we're not creating harm to ourselves or others in the process.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:02
Yeah, what helped me a lot. Also, there's another teaching around compassion, you know that I think is not as pronounced within the classical teaching. Well, it's not as pronounced within the Sutras, but you definitely see it in the Gita, the idea of compassion for others, and that when you start to see yourself in others, that's like, basically enlightenment, when you perceive the same essence in yourself and all other beings. The Gita says, then you will experience the pleasure and pain of others as your own. And so that helped me a lot, too, because I started to see that, you know, my compassion wasn't an obstacle. Do you know what I'm saying? Like you have to be non-attached, and yet it's that non-attachment that actually will lead you to feeling for others. And so, I would say, within the Accessible Yoga community, I think we're a very compassionate community who really care about others and welcoming people and wanting to include them and seeing the suffering of others. And I think that's a kind of, I don't know, it's a type of realization of self understanding to do that. Do you know what I mean? I keep asking!
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:24
Yeah, absolutely. It's sort of like what you two talked about that like, it's in relationships that you can improve your relationship with yourself. Was that a thread of your conversation, if I remember?
Jivana Heyman 1:01:37
Yeah, yeah. We did talk about that. Yeah. That's true, yeah. Well, I appreciate you asking me that. I feel like I could go on and on, because I have learned a lot over the years, and so it's good. I don't usually think about it that way, like, how have I changed? But I do feel, like, incredibly grateful for these teachings. I think they have changed me and impacted me in such profound ways, and I feel like I have so much more to learn. I mean, yeah, it's kind of endless.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:11
Thanks for generously sharing that. I know it was a personal question.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:15
Yeah, thanks for asking. I mean, was that what you were asking? I mean, did I answer your question?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:22
You did. You did. No, that was a great response. And, you know, I feel like, I know we're talking about evolution and change. And maybe I just want to put a fine point, like, you know, the point of yoga isn't necessarily to change, right? Like, because you always teach this, right? We're not fixing ourselves. But transformation can be part of this process, but maybe transformation isn't always the goal, so to speak.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:48
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I do think we misunderstand it as transformation, and it's really just shifting our identity from the ego mind, to the spirit, to our heart, to be identified as spirit and recognize that the body and the mind are temporary and will die. And there's part of us that is eternal, that spirit within us and within all other beings. And so that's what yoga is asking us to do, is to shift our identification. And that, like you said, that's not transformation. The body and mind actually don't even need to really change for that to happen.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:28
Yeah, and I guess Swami Ramananda, I just want to pull forward this quote, like, "There isn't one way, there's one essential purpose." And that's sort of what you just mentioned, to disengage from our ego identity.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:41
I love that. Yeah, he's very smart.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:46
Well, I want to remind our listeners, too that we have a few more episodes so there. It's not too late to get your questions in for Jivana. This is your chance to ask Jivana anything. A.M.A., so to speak.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:56
Ask me anything! I know, and maybe people don't know that this is a limited series. This season, at least, is going to be 30 episodes, celebrating my 30 years of teaching yoga. And then, you know, I'm sure we'll do another season after that, maybe with a short break, but yeah, this particular focus will be ending. I know, just a few more episodes to go. I don't know what number this is, but we're getting there, which is incredible. It's been incredible. It's been absolutely incredible. I think this is the 27th episode, if I'm not mistaken, out of the 30 and yeah, just grateful to everyone who's been listening, if you're still here with me after 27 episodes, that's kind of amazing. And also to Swami Ramananda, of course, for being willing to talk to me on air for this podcast so that people could get to know him, and, you know, also for his wisdom and his mentorship over the years has meant a lot to me. You know, I always say it's important that we have mentors, we have yoga practitioners around us, that community. And we talked about it, he and I talked about it in the episode. It's just, like, so important to have that, you know, to have people around that you can talk to, someone I call regularly. And, you know, he just, it's always so great to just have that, yeah, just to have that in my life. And with others too. I mean, I feel grateful for all my mentors and yoga friends, and for you! Grateful to you, Deanna, thanks for being here and your great questions. That was a really interesting question today. I'm gonna have to think about it more. But yeah, that was great.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:38
This has been fun. And yeah, we want to hear your questions and your voice. You could leave a voicemail or a text question, but it would be amazing to hear your voices.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:48
Definitely! Yes, please. I want to hear...it doesn't even have to be a question, it could be a comment. I'd love to hear your comment. You could answer Deanna's question, you could answer that yourself. People could share like, what have you learned from your practice if you look back over the years that you've been practicing, what's changed for you? I think that's a really great prompt, and I think it's important to do it, honestly. So I probably should be doing it more, because I think it's important to not only honor the teachings in that way, by recognizing the impact they have on our lives, but also to affirm our practice and feel and renew our commitment that, oh yeah, this is actually doing something. It's actually working. Sometimes we don't know. I remember when I started meditating regularly and I had like, these incredible experiences, like, woo, like, way out there, you know? And I think that's pretty common, maybe for newer practitioners, and then you kind of just level off, and you just kind of think, wow, this isn't really do anything anymore, but there's just like a level of support there that sometimes we don't see. So it's great. It's great to recognize that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:06:54
Well, thanks for sharing with us, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 1:06:56
Yeah, all right. Well, thanks everyone. Leave us a message and we'll see you next time. (Til next time.) Thanks, bye. (Bye.)
