Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, known today as Santa Barbara, California. And I'm so glad you're here, thanks for joining me. Hope you're doing well. I'm doing pretty well myself, I have to say. I'm really excited about this conversation today. I got to talk to my good friend ML Maitreyi. She's been involved with accessible yoga for a long time. Originally, she took a 200 hour training with me, and then she actually assisted me when I started Accessible Yoga. Originally, we were offering 200 hour trainings for disabled folks to become yoga teachers, and she was one of our mentors. And then she helped me when we did the in person conferences, way back, we had Accessible Yoga Conferences in person and then online. She also went and created Accessible Yoga Sacramento and Accessible Yoga Tahoe. She's been teaching for quite a while now, and she has a new book out on chair yoga, which is very exciting. So continuing to teach and share through this new format of a book, which I'll put a link in in the show notes if you want to find out more about it. One of the things I love about Maitreyi is how open she is about her mental health challenge and I think that can be really hard in the yoga world. I'm not sure why, but somehow in yoga, it feels like there's a lot of resistance to talking about mental health. It seems that, I think it's a kind of ableism, you know, that yoga is supposed to cure you of all these problems, and it's just not true. You know, yoga is healing, but not in that way. Yoga allows you to embrace yourself, but you still have a mind, and it might have a lot of challenges, and Maitreyi speaks openly about hers, about her diagnosis with bipolar disorder, and she also talks about suicide and suicidal ideation. And so I wanted to actually give a content warning here. She mentions it briefly, but a few different times through the interview. And, you know, if you don't have the capacity to listen to that, then I really suggest you take care of yourself and maybe don't listen to this episode. But if you do have the capacity, I really recommend it. I think we need to amplify conversations in the yoga community about mental health, and I really appreciate Maitreyi for doing that. So, I'll leave you with that and here's my conversation with my Maitreyi.
Jivana Heyman 3:08
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Jivana Heyman 3:57
Hi, Maitreyi.
ML Maitreyi 3:59
Hi! It's wonderful to see you. Thank you, technology.
Jivana Heyman 4:04
Yes, great to see you, too. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.
ML Maitreyi 4:08
It's an honor. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 4:10
I just want to say we're friends, so we should just make that disclaimer right away that we talk all the time. It's not just an interview, but it is an interview, and I appreciate it. So, you know, I wonder if you want to just say hello and introduce yourself a little bit.
ML Maitreyi 4:25
Sure. Thank you. My name is ML Maitreyi, she/her, and I'm currently living in San Felipe, Baja Mexico. Some people call it Baja California, but I don't. It's Mexico. There's a whole history to that, but we won't get into that. But anyway, I came to California 20 years ago when I was 30, and started teaching yoga. I had 10 years of Integral as like a practitioner behind me, but yoga was different then, right? And so someone at the gym said to me, where I like folded towels and handed them out at 5am. "Well, hey, if you take this yoga fit thing, which is like 30 hours on a weekend, you can teach here." And I said, okay! And I did have a lot of knowledge of yoga, and I had studied, but I was completely uncertified, and I was pretty much just mimicking the Integral level one class that I had practiced for 10 years. I never did level two. I never did level three. I don't even believe in levels anymore, but I had that first class memorized because I did it all the time for myself, and so I sort of brought that into the gym, and I remember learning one of my first accessible techniques there from one of the other yoga teachers, who was this adorable person. She was really tiny and very, very pregnant, and she was teaching, like, right up until it was time. And I remember she taught this forward fold, so to speak. It was kind of like a wide legged straddle, and she would place her forearms. I mean, I still do this and love it. And I'm sure we share it with students all the time. She would place her forearms right above her knees, on her upper thighs, basically, or on her thighs, and sort of brace herself, and then lean forward. And so obviously the head wasn't going all the way forward to the earth, but I just thought, wow, that's so cool! And so I always remember that as, like, the first accessible thing I learned, aside from blocks. I know we used blocks for lunges a lot in that level one Integral class.
Jivana Heyman 6:53
So, and I should say, Integral is how we well, maybe you're gonna get into that. But yeah, we met at Integral in San Francisco, right? Integral Yoga is the school created by Swami Satchidananda, where I worked for many, many years. And then we found out that he was having relationships with his students. So...
ML Maitreyi 7:10
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. And we're in a new age now, thank God. So anyway, yeah, so I started teaching in gyms, and I noticed I wanted to accommodate everyone who came through the door. And so what actually happened is all the vinyasa students started drifting away. This was at Gold's Gym, and other people started coming in. I guess the word spread, like, you might be able to do this yoga class. So all I had was blocks to work with, these really heavy cork, you know, the heavy ones, blocks. And I just used them for everything, everything I could possibly think of. And all sorts of bodies came in, and I really did my best. It was a very popular class, you know, it did well. The gym ended up closing down. I ended up adopting those cork yoga blocks for Accessible Yoga in Sacramento, for Accessible Yoga Sacramento. But I was looking for more. I knew I had more knowledge, obviously, to gain, and so I went and did all these teacher trainings that I hated. I even went all the way to Canada. I had a dear friend that was doing a teacher training. And you know, if you want to teach power vinyasa, it's a great training. But my body itself, yeah, I'm talking about my body like it's something other, but I was very put off by that training. And I remember saying, my body can't do this and doesn't want to do it. This hurts. And I remember, you know, some very young teacher trainer assistant, saying to me, "Well, just try it." And I was like, no, I don't want to try it. I don't want to be uncomfortable in my yoga practice. So I really resented that training, and I found that that was my experience with almost every training I took. And then this light bulb went off, and I just thought to myself, oh yeah, there's an integral in San Francisco. So I would drive three times a week from Sacramento to Integral to take the 200 hour training with you and some other very talented teachers, and that's where I got my 200 hour training. And then shortly after, I sort of asked you, I don't know if I asked you or you asked me, but I think I said, is there anything I could do for you or collaborate with you? And then one day, you came to me, and you said, "Yeah, I'm doing this thing, Accessible Yoga." Maybe you were calling it gentle/accessible at the time, something like that. And you showed me this postcard, and it was people lying in shavasana, which is wonderful. Shavasana is wonderful. But I said, Can we make it more exciting? Can we show people that it doesn't just have to be lying in...
Jivana Heyman 10:04
It was Accessible Yoga because it was where we started using that term. (Right.) I designed a 200 hour training for people, for disabled folks, to become yoga teachers, and offered it. (At that time, that is what it was.) Yeah, that was Accessible Yoga. We started in 2007 and I think you came in soon after that...(And it was at Roberts Campus.)...and were one of the mentors. (In Berkeley.) Part of it was because you were so out about your mental health challenges. I wonder if you could talk about that, because I feel like, you know, in the yoga world, that was like something people weren't talking about, and I was really impressed, and I'm still impressed by your just openness and willingness to share and talk about it.
ML Maitreyi 10:48
Thank you. Yeah, that might be a important part of how we started, actually. Well, I was very inspired by what you were doing in terms of the accessibility, and I thought to myself, well, what do I have to offer people with disabilities, physical disabilities, even though now I'm realizing I have a lot of them, or challenges, or whatever, whatever word we want to use. But at the time, I thought to myself, oh, it's the otherness. And I have otherness. I have bipolar disorder, and I've really worked hard with that over the past 20-30 years of my life, obtaining many different skills from many different places. It's a complicated thing to approach, but I realized I understood, I understood what otherness was. And then, at the time, it wasn't real popular to come out with a mental health diagnosis, because I had to, you know, people would use the term bipolar all the time if somebody kind of flew off the handle or whatever. So I was definitely in hiding. I wasn't out, but I realized I could not move forward with Accessible Yoga, assisting you, assisting students, teaching unless I came out and was honest about my disability, which is a huge part of my life. I don't want to say it rules my life, but it would rule my life if I wasn't on top of it every single day, every single day. And so I decided to make that choice, and then I felt more comfortable moving forward with what you were creating.
Jivana Heyman 12:40
And do you think, I just wonder if you could speak to your practice, like, how yoga supported you with that, with your bipolar disorder?
ML Maitreyi 12:49
Well, I remember the first time I took a class in New York City, and my acting teacher was also an Integral teacher. And so, yeah, I just followed him around everywhere, right? Like we tend to do sometimes with our mentors and teachers. So he would make us do these weird things before acting class. You know, sun salutation, cat/cow, lion. He didn't even tell us why we were doing it, he was just like, just do these things before you act. So that's how we started every class. And he had been a runner who blew out his knee. So he was teaching yoga. That was his, like, thing he moved into. And so I went over to the studio. Anyone who knows New York, it was like 72nd and Broadway or something like that, on the West Side. And I took this class. And it was really weird, because we just sat there for a really long time in the beginning, and we moved our eyes, and we chanted things in a different language, and we did a lot of breathing, and I was like, when are we going to move? And we did move, and we went through the whole thing, and then we had that final relaxation. And when I emerged from the final relaxation, I just said to myself, what - is - this - feeling? I had never felt that sense of, I mean, balance, I suppose, if we're talking about bipolar, you know it was, it was just a different feeling that I had it would. And of course, I self medicated for a long time in my life with drugs and alcohol. But even drugs and alcohol never produced that feeling. The Prozac, you know, did what it did, kept me from unaliving myself, as you know, but this feeling was something new, and I needed to explore it. And so I really fell in love with yoga and just dove into it. And over the years, whenever I do have suicidal ideation, even to this day, almost every day of my life. It's just a symptom of my mental health disability, there's this light at the end of the tunnel that says, there's yoga, you know, and there, I didn't have that light at the end of the tunnel before. By the way, I need a lot of other things aside from yoga. I need my medication, I need support, I need therapy, I need community. But I knew there was this other thing that I could access, and that all I needed was a yoga mat and my breath. So it was kind of a miracle. And I know a lot of people have said this, that when they found yoga, it sort of saved their life.
Jivana Heyman 15:42
Yeah, right. It's like a common thing we hear, but it's great to hear your story and have you speak about it so openly. And like you said, I do think there's a lot of stigma around mental health challenges in the yoga community. It almost feels, to me, like what's happened as yoga has evolved, is that physical disabilities have been accepted on some level, but mental health challenges not so much. And I think it's maybe because yoga is supposed to fix everyone and like, make you feel better, and like, fix your mind. And so there's this idea that if you do it right, you'll get better or something. And it just feels really oppressive to me, actually, like, really, like, overwhelmingly difficult to continue to practice and teach as you've done for so many years, and just continue to speak about it like you do.
ML Maitreyi 16:35
Yeah, and I'm just not fixed, and I never will be.
Jivana Heyman 16:38
Right and that's not what yoga is for. You know? That's why there's so much confusion in the yoga world around that, like, yoga is a spiritual practice and yet we teach it like it's for physical healing only, or fixing people as if they're wrong. And I get so frustrated by that. I think it's a form of ableism, actually, right, that we come in to the practice like there's something to be fixed, and that's not really what yoga is about.
ML Maitreyi 17:01
So I would say, for me, it's a self regulation tool and I'm meeting myself where I'm at that day, that moment, and I hope that students feel the freedom to do that as well when we practice together. And I think the studies of neurodivergence, that have been recent over the past five or 10 years, within Accessible Yoga especially, I've learned so much from you, from Becky from Yoga for Neurodivergence, and neurodiversity. And yeah, that is a new, wonderful field of knowledge that I am enjoying learning so much from. And it's liberated me quite a bit, because all the things that I thought were weird about myself and are weird, I'm like, oh, okay, that's a thing, like, a lot of us do that. And so once again, when you find community, it sort of takes away the otherness, and when you have knowledge to work with, it changes the whole landscape. So and they're connected. They're connected, the physical and the spiritual, and, of course, the self regulation of the nervous system. I mean, it's all about the nervous system. [laughs]
Jivana Heyman 18:33
Yeah, I appreciate that, and I love what you said about community. It really makes such a difference, you know, for anyone who feels excluded or different to then find a community of people. You know, it's like, that's what I feel like Accessible Yoga has been able to offer a lot of people over the years. It makes me very happy. It's just like a welcoming place, whether it's part of this global community that we have now or within a individual yoga class, you know, that's so powerful. I know you, you created a lot of experiences like that in the past, you know, at Accessible Yoga in Sacramento and in Tahoe. I mean, you've really helped to build community. So I feel like that's a big part of what you do.
ML Maitreyi 19:19
Thank you. I think that it's very difficult to heal without community. I found it to be very lonely, initially. And, you know, there's a lot of free groups out there that I had to attend because I did not have the resources, or the health insurance wouldn't approve me for the thing. And, you know, I'm a suicide survivor, and after a couple weeks in a psych ward, I got booted out on the street with like, the plant that somebody gave me, "Get Well Soon." And then I was like, well, now what, you know? And so yoga was a big part of recovery, cognitive therapy, stuff like that. But, I depended upon community because I didn't have anything else. I didn't have any other resources.
Jivana Heyman 19:20
Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's sad to think of the opposite, about how so much of yoga is taught in a way that doesn't cultivate community in a really welcoming way. I mean, I know there's incredible teachers out there, but I feel like a lot of yoga is happening within gyms and studios that are very fitness oriented. And there's nothing wrong with fitness, but I think sometimes there's a sense that you have to conform and fit in, and that you're not welcome if you don't look or act like everybody else in that space. So that's what I guess we're trying to get at in the end with Accessible Yoga is to raise awareness around that, that it's the people that feel the least welcome that may need these practices the most. Those of us that have been excluded or oppressed in some way really need and deserve to have that community support that yoga can offer.
ML Maitreyi 20:59
Yeah. I mean somebody walking through the door of the studio, or the space, or in the community center, wherever you're teaching, could be a hole in the wall, I've taught in a lot of those, that's a success, just that they walked through the door. And so you want them to feel that that's a space that they can explore from exactly where they are. And that's also, I noticed for a lot of people, that's uncomfortable. They might not have experienced that before, right where they show up, and it's kind of like, yeah, you're okay the way you are, and thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 21:40
And the other thing I want to talk about is your new book. You have a new book out on chair yoga, which is very exciting. And actually, I don't have the book, but I have a PDF. Tell me the whole title? (I don't have the book either.) I know. Well, hopefully by the time this is released, the book is available. Can you tell me the full title, again?
ML Maitreyi 21:57
It's called, Chair Yoga for Strength and Balance: Accessible Exercises to Improve Mobility and Relieve Pain. Kind of a long title.
Jivana Heyman 21:57
That's great, though. It's beautiful. So I saw the preview PDF, and I have to say, I mean, I've known you for a long time, but I didn't know you're such a good writer. It's really beautiful. Really, I was so touched by it. I think that the writing felt engaging to me in the way a lot of yoga books aren't, by the way. I think a lot of yoga books are written in a way that's kind of, I don't want to say, like, boring, you know, where it's just, like, very practical, like, do this this way. But I just enjoyed the tone and the quality of the writing. And I really do care about writing. It's important to me, so I was really excited about that. (Thank you.) And the drawings are great, just really beautiful, very colorful. So I just think it's going to serve a lot of people. So I'm just very excited for you. How do you feel about it?
ML Maitreyi 22:53
Well, thank you. That's such a lovely compliment coming from you, you know, a celebrated author, and, well, I appreciate what you said about that it's not like telling people what to do, because that was really important to me. When I first spoke with Harper Collins about it, I was like, there have got to be certain things. You know, it's not going to be instructional, it's going to be invitational. We're going to move this into 2025, the best we can. And so I really wanted it to feel like a friend to the practitioner, some encouragement. Once again, I wanted it to meet them where they are, and also, I wanted it to be a tool for teachers, because what I discovered over the past 10 years is that some teachers don't know where to start. They want to have accessible skills, but, you know, maybe they can't afford a training or whatnot, and someone's coming into their class and they literally are at a loss - I can't serve this person. And so I was hoping this book would be a good place to start for them.
Jivana Heyman 24:16
And can I ask you, with that in mind, can you give us, like, a little preview? Like, what would you say for yoga teachers out there who are maybe new to chair yoga or just starting to teach it? Like, what are a few thoughts you'd have for them or, like, some advice for new chair yoga teachers?
ML Maitreyi 24:36
I would say that chair yoga is really no different than any other kind of yoga, and often, what I see happening with teachers who approach chair yoga is they're sort of just trying to make it look exactly the same as the posture, if it's standing or, you know, and let's just do it in a chair. But there's so much more nuance than that. Just like there is in a standing practice, you know, or reclining practice. We know that from practitioner to practitioner, there's different things going on in their body and in their experience, unless you're in a class where everybody is doing the exact same thing. But that's not what we're talking about here. So I wanted people to sort of reimagine what's possible, the possibilities. We think a lot about challenges, disabilities, what's not, you know, oh well, they can't do this. I wanted to sort of get out of that mind frame and into the idea of possibilities, in collaboration with the student. You know, the student is actually informing you throughout their practice, if you're watching, if you're listening. And so it's an opportunity to really put our ego aside as teachers too, and learn from the students themselves, because every student that's going to come in is different, even if they have the same condition or disease, it's going to express itself differently in every single body. So my hope is that teachers could feel a little more confident to explore.
Jivana Heyman 26:23
Yeah, it's interesting that confidence. I love that. I love what you said, but it's interesting that the confidence, in a way, comes from recognizing the limits of your wisdom and knowledge, and by acknowledging that the student actually knows themselves. Even if they're new to yoga, still. They're the ones with the who are experts on their body and their experience and how they feel, and that really is a collaborative or like a dance, you know, with you and your students, where you find that rhythm together of give and take. And it's not just one direction, right? It goes back between you two. It's a relationship. You know, the student, teacher relationship is a really beautiful and profound thing, and I don't think we elevate it enough in the yoga world, you know. That it's okay just to be student and teacher, and it's beautiful and profound and in that relationship, there's respect and care and support, and that goes both ways. You know, the student is giving. I feel like many of my students have been so generous when they show me what they need, right? Like when they actually are honest with me and tell me the truth, rather than just tell me what I want to hear, they're like, no. I love when they say no. Yeah.
ML Maitreyi 27:16
I love when they say no. I always say thank you. Thank you for saying no to that! Because it's just so clear and helpful, but I do think that one problem that we face in this Accessible Yoga arena or world is that we still are dealing with self ableism, and that's a result of a capitalist society. It's a result of a lot of things, right?
Jivana Heyman 28:06
Self ableism, you mean, like the inner, like, thoughts that are ableist, like that?
ML Maitreyi 28:11
Yeah, I should be able to do this. (Yeah.) You know, so also recognizing where the student might be up against that within themselves, and making room for that until they're ready, baby, to try something different. So I think it's a journey. I think when we're cultivating community classes, we want people to come back week after week so that we can build a trust level with them as teachers, but also so they can build that trust within themselves, and then they begin to develop their own routine. They know what props they need. They know what works for them and what doesn't work for them. It's not going to all happen in one yoga class.
Jivana Heyman 28:51
I love that. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. I'm excited for the book. I'm teaching a new chair yoga course called, The Art of Teaching Chair Yoga. (I love that name!) I don't know if I've told you that, we're starting in January. It's like, I don't want to say, quote, advanced chair yoga, because I hate that word, but it's like the progression from, you know, I teach a basic chair yoga course called, Chair Yoga for Everyone, and this is, like, the next level for people who have maybe some experience, or at least for teachers who are doing some active teaching who want to learn more about it. And so we have incredible guests, incredible topics, just basically like to work on those skills. And I'm going to recommend your book. And also, Finlay, you know, Finlay Wilson has a new book on chair yoga that just came out. It seems like a big thing happening right now. Yeah, I'm gonna recommend your book for sure. It's wonderful. (Thank you so much.) I also wanted to ask you the question I ask all my guests, which is, is there a particular teaching or practice, and I don't know if we touched on this earlier, but is there a particular teaching or practice or something that you hold on to that really supports you as you move forward in your life? Yeah.
ML Maitreyi 30:00
Yeah, I was going to talk about a breathing practice, and my cat was just having a sneezing storm. (I couldn't hear it.) She must be intuiting, we're going to talk about breath now. Well, it's interesting. There is, and I would say it is nadi sudhi, alternate nostril breathing. However, when I first started that practice, I thought it was suffocating, and I hated it, so it took a really long time for me to create comfort within that practice for myself, and I know you talk about that a lot in the Accessible Yoga course, but the knowledge of what was happening within myself and how it was affecting my nervous system when I did this practice, you know, I learned about the left brain and the right brain and the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous systems, and that felt like a tool, that felt like something I could pull out of my pocket anytime of the day, if I wanted to, and I can, and I could, so I would say, especially for folks like me that might be dealing with mood disorders, you know, it became a very powerful, powerful, powerful tool. And perhaps yoga nidra itself, final relaxation, the process of going inward bit by bit.
Jivana Heyman 31:27
But with nadi sudhi, with alternate nostril breathing, there is also the one I teach, because I do, I think a lot of people have that feeling of suffocation and I just want to say, there's the one I teach without closing the nostril, where you have your hands on the lap, you know, and you can kind of open one hand as you imagine. So it's like visualizing the practice can be great...
ML Maitreyi 31:44
I always suggest that when I teach with peace fingers and thumb. Because also, you know, mudras can be (Mudras can be challenging.) Yeah. But then, I always suggest what I learned from you, which is that this can be visualized or using the hands, like you teach. And I think that's really important to offer a few different options for a practice, because otherwise someone will just opt out of it. And yeah, I didn't have that though, so I had to fight through that. (I'm sorry.) I wish I had met you earlier!
ML Maitreyi 31:46
Well, we did a long time ago. Anything else though, that you wanted to share?
ML Maitreyi 32:34
Well, let's see about the book. There's a lot of fun stuff in there. There are pictures, and I worked really closely with them to make sure the images were diverse and represented a lot of different kinds of people, so that people could see themselves in those pictures. And also they wanted me to write like some routines, which is actually, I'm not really a routine based teacher, but I know a lot of people learn that way. So there's various routines for different things, which I think might be helpful to new teachers or teachers that are seeking that kind of guidance. And there's some fun ones, like on an airplane, and which, I know you've done that as well, and little things like that. I think there's a bed practice. So it has a lot of variety and I just want to say once more, it's really meant to be an encourager, a friend, and empower the practitioner, not instruct them. And so some things might, you know, stick out to someone in the book, and be like, oh, this really works for me. And other things, let it go. It's okay. You don't have to like that part, you know, so I hope it has enough variety for everyone. And I really did write it from my heart. I'm not making a commission off this book, which the only reason I'm saying that is because I am promoting it, because I want it out there. Over the years, teaching community yoga and begging people to volunteer, basically, to keep these programs going weekly. You know, a lot of teachers need support in doing that, and we don't all have the time to fully mentor somebody, right? I mean, that's a whole thing unto itself. So I'm hoping this book, if someone's teaching in a studio or something, after reading this book, or even skimming through it, and someone walks through the door, they might think to themselves, I think I have some options for this person, you know, instead of when we used to say, "This class isn't for you, or you should go to another class." Which I don't think I ever did say that. Like I said, I was always trying to...I'd be like, here's eight blocks, what could we do with that?
Jivana Heyman 35:09
No, I know you never did. But yeah, it's an incredible resource. Thanks. Congratulations. It's a big thing to have a book out there.
ML Maitreyi 35:18
I'm very grateful to have had the opportunity to do it. So grateful. And, yeah, thank you very much.
Jivana Heyman 35:26
Okay, well, thanks for being here.
ML Maitreyi 35:28
Thank you! It's fun after seeing all your other podcasts, and, you know, knowing you for so long. And thank you for the work you've done and what you've created, which has created so many pathways for us as teachers. I'm grateful to you.
Jivana Heyman 35:47
I appreciate that. All right. Take care, okay. (Bye!)
Jivana Heyman 36:03
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Jivana Heyman 37:21
Welcome back. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:24
Hello, Jivana, how are you?
Jivana Heyman 37:26
I'm good. I am. I'm good. How about you? (I am also good.) Yeah. And what do you think of that episode?
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:35
I thought Maitreyi is so inspirational. I really appreciated her vulnerability. And I think that when you own an aspect of yourself that you, I don't know, and I'm not projecting this onto Maitreyi, but if you feel like a certain shame around something or people in culture tell you, like, hide something and to be able to own that really, like creates a doorway for other people to do the same. And I just, I thank her for this conversation. It means a lot to me.
Jivana Heyman 38:08
Yeah, I totally agree. That's why I want to have her as a guest. I mean, she's a good friend, but I also really admire her bravery, because being out about having bipolar disorder is great. It's really brave, because not that many people do it, especially in the yoga world. I think that in particular, is what I wanted to really share about her story and just have her talk about, because it feels like there's a lot of ableism, particularly around mental health in the yoga world, as if, like, if you're a yoga practitioner, then somehow that's all magically erased. You know, that you'll be fixed and healed, and it's just so frustrating.
Deanna Michalopoulos 38:49
Yeah, I appreciated how candid she was too about her experience with yoga, like her own routine doesn't...and I'm sure this is true for 1000s of other, 10s of 1000s of other people. You know, yoga doesn't, it's never meant to fix anything and anyone who tries to, quote, unquote, sell you on that, like you said, it's coming from an ableist lens. And I appreciated that she was open about how she relies on other support in her life. And you know, it's not like, you know, you can meditate and then all of a sudden, like, from that day forward, you're not going to be, like, still dealing with the thing.
Jivana Heyman 39:24
Yeah, there's a lot of shaming, I think, in the yoga world about, you know, like, medications that you might take for mental health, or even going and getting professional support, like being in therapy. It's just so strange to me, I just don't understand, yeah, especially, I think for yoga teachers. So I think for her as a teacher, to put herself out is really, really impressive, because it's like, as a yoga teacher, you're supposed to be somehow, like a perfect being. You have no problems, and your mental health is perfect, because, yeah, like you said, you meditate, so everything is fine, and it's just so ridiculous. I mean, meditation can help but, and I do think that yoga can be healing, but probably not in the way that people think it is.
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:18
Absolutely. I think of, you know, Jillian Pransky says this in her trainings a lot, "Do you think healing is the same as being cured?" When you really stop and think about that inquiry, it's profound, and like, what that means. And, you know, the conversation around yoga and mental health, you know, we talk about stress really freely, we talk about anxiety, and those can be debilitating conditions. I totally understand that, and can relate. But then when you get to other sorts of, you know, mental health conditions, I think we don't really have that conversation in yoga at all, which is why I just, again, really appreciated this conversation.
Jivana Heyman 41:01
Yeah, I know we talked about a bit. Do you remember that program? We had a series, I think it was last year on neurodiversity and yoga? Sometimes mental health is included in neurodiversity, and sometimes it's not. I think really it is, though I mean being neurodivergent, in my mind, includes having a mental health diagnosis. And I know, like I had, I was diagnosed with anxiety, you know, after my mom died. And I think a lot of my anxiety was around, what do you call it, I think it was like PTSD from all of the loss I'd had during the AIDS epidemic and how, you know, I was in my 20s, and I probably lost, yeah, 20 to 30 people that were close to me and and then when my mom died, I kind of lost it for a while. And I think, you know, it just was a very different way of being. Anyway, I agree with you. I feel like we do get to talk about that. I can talk about anxiety, and it's not that big a deal. But when, when Maitreyi talks about having a bipolar disorder, I feel like people are surprised. Or when she discusses suicidal thoughts, stuff like that, it becomes really challenging. And I think a lot of people don't know how to handle that. You know, especially in yoga, where it feels like we focus so much on, like, the positive all the time. And just, you know, like everything is love and light.
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:25
And it's this feedback loop, right? Where it's like, you know, I don't even think I've said bipolar disorder in this conversation. And so like, you know, I think, the the less you talk about it, the more it's stigmatized, and the more there are feelings of shame around that and other similar conditions, right? And so it just like, it keeps this loop going where then, like, you don't talk about it, and then, you know, it's further shrouded in whatever shame and people don't want to discuss. And so anyway, I think conversations like this are super important.
Jivana Heyman 42:54
Yeah, there is a lot of shame and a lot of fear, and yet, I think it's quite common, you know. I know a bunch of people have different mental health diagnoses, and I just, I want them to feel welcome in yoga. And like, yoga is not going to try to make them other than they are, but to allow them to embrace themselves. And for me, I mean, I think that's what I meant earlier when I said I think yoga is healing but in a different way, like that quote you have from Jillian. I mean, it's not about curing to make you not have that disability or condition. Rather, it's it teaches us to accept ourselves and to be okay with ourselves, to embrace ourselves and recognize that we are complex, and we have many parts, you know. And that's what's so beautiful about yoga to me. And I feel like Accessible Yoga could do more in that regard and I'm curious of how. You know, like I'd love to know. I mean, here we're having this conversation today, but I just feel like, in general, I would really be interested in other ways. I know, like I said, we had that one series that I thought about, we talked about trauma quite a bit in the yoga world, which is interesting, since that's also really connected to mental health. But I don't think it's talked about enough.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:21
Well, Maitreyi, obviously, you know, she has a new book coming out, right? And is that coming out this month?
Jivana Heyman 44:29
Yeah, so I think now that we're releasing it, I think the book's out now. We'll have a link in the show notes, and I only saw the preview, so I haven't seen the hard copy yet, but it's a really great book, and I'm excited. I think it's just really well written. She has, I think I mentioned it in the episode, you know, that she just has a great way of writing that's just very friendly and welcoming. And, I mean, that's how she teaches, also that, you know, I think she's taught so much Accessible Yoga, it really comes through in that book, which is really, really great. It's so amazing to have so many yoga books out that are in this world. You know, chair yoga and Accessible Yoga now, it's just something that really didn't exist much in the past. So yeah, I'm excited for that book.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:13
I really loved when she was also talking about how, you know, as a yoga teacher, you're not really instructing someone, you're more so, like, you know, collaborating with them, and this echoes a sentiment that you share a lot in your teaching of Accessible Yoga and when you're training other teachers. And I was actually curious, if you don't mind me throwing a question at you, what does collaboration actually look like in action, like, in a classroom? Do you change the way you teach? Like, does that mean you stop the class midway through? Practically speaking, when you speak about collaborating as a teacher, what does it look like?
Jivana Heyman 45:53
Yeah, I do talk about it a lot, and I probably don't get into the details enough, because it's I have a lot of ideas about that, but I think it's a great question. I think it really starts with the relationship that you have as a teacher with your students and seeing them as equals, which maybe is paradoxical, because, yeah, you're the teacher and they're the student, but I still say that seeing the student as your equal is essential. And this idea of a hierarchy that we often have where the teacher is like above the student, I think that's the problem. So I think collaboration, to me, has the subtext of equality, that I see you as my equal, and I respect you, and we both have knowledge. We both have wisdom. So as a teacher, I have knowledge of yoga and my experience teaching. As a student, you have knowledge about your body and wisdom about what you're experiencing during the class. You have things that I don't have. You actually know your history and what your body has been through, but you also have that moment of recognizing how you're feeling, what's happening, how are you breathing? Are you going too far, or do you need more challenge? Are you engaged? Are you distracted? Like those experiences are hard for me to tell as a teacher from the outside. So I think collaboration is the idea that we both have something to offer in this relationship. And that's it too, it's also recognizing the importance of a teacher-student relationship as that as a relationship, and any relationship has to have two sides, right? Like you can't have a one sided relationship of just the teacher talking constantly and the student just taking it all in. It just doesn't seem to me like a real relationship. A relationship is a give and take. So it could look a lot of different ways, and I think it depends on the teacher's, and the student's, personalities and what they're wanting from that exchange.
Jivana Heyman 48:00
But I guess my main message would be to reflect on as a yoga teacher, reflect on your relationship with your students and how you perceive them, and how much you value the relationship part and as a teacher, are you willing to get feedback and listen to your students, even if it's not always in words, do know what I mean? Like, are you willing to take messages that they're giving you during class, before class, after class? Like, what are you taking on? And it could be a message like they look at you in a strange way during class, like they make a face, or they're holding their breath, or you notice that they're pushing themselves. They seem to be breathing heavily, or whatever it is, you notice things that can be information they're giving you, or they could actually just be giving you information, like asking you questions. And so the other piece of that is, I guess I would say, is the tone that you take when you're teaching like, are you offering your instructions like commands that have to be followed, or are you offering instructions as suggestions and that they have ultimate choice in the matter? And that's more than just the phrasing, by the way, it's more than the selection of the words you use. It's also the tone of voice you have, the energy behind your words, and in some ways, you may not be able to recognize that in yourself. I think it's hard sometimes to see yourself clearly, so it can be good to work with other teachers, have them take your classes, give you feedback about that, to video yourself if you're teaching online, you can record it and watch it back. As much as you can become aware of your behaviors and how you act naturally, I think that can really support you as a teacher to work on, how open are you? How friendly? Do you know what I'm saying? So sometimes it can be an unconscious that you don't even know that you're, like, not really that friendly.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:07
Do you remember a moment in learning or like, having this realization yourself as a teacher?
Jivana Heyman 50:14
Oh, every class. Yeah, I think it's been important for me to recognize that I am very shy, and so sometimes that would make me closed off to my students out of shyness, because I would kind of be protecting myself in the classroom. I wasn't naturally a very social person or sociable. So it was like, I had to really push that and work on that to improve my teaching skills. I had to work on that in myself to be more friendly and engaging in a direct way, and to not put up that wall. Because I think that's other thing is like, sometimes yoga teachers, we put up that, you know, it's like the fourth wall is that what's called an acting? You know, where like, there's a performance happening and there's an audience, and you're the actor. That's not what teaching is, but I think sometimes we default to that out of insecurity or because we're trained that way. I mean, some schools literally train people to teach like that, kind of in a performative way. Like you're at the front of the room you're performing and they're watching. I think that's not ideal. I think that's not a way for Accessible Yoga to happen. We have to let down that wall. But it can be hard, you know, for very personal and emotional reasons, like to be open and friendly. So I just started bringing in more humor. I think that was my answer, because I do like humor a lot, and I always think of funny things to say, but I often would just bite my tongue, but I realized that was a way, so I would try to use humor and engage students more, that that felt okay to me. And just through experience, I got over my shyness, I think, just by teaching a lot.
Jivana Heyman 52:03
The other thing is, I don't want to come across like I'm criticizing teachers, because I think what we're talking about here is like, the art of teaching and how it's such a subtle and challenging thing, and it can take literally years and decades to find your way. And so I think it's okay to be not good at it. Like, it's okay to not be a great yoga teacher. Like, that's not a bad thing. We're all in process, you know. So it's like, be okay with where you are, and also try to be better. And I think both are true. I don't want people to beat themselves up about this, you know, start being like, paranoid, oh, I'm not a good teacher, because I don't whatever. That's not it. It's like, every time you teach, there's an opportunity for improvement. One thing that I would do is, after I would teach, I would spend some time reflecting on what happened, either writing or just sitting with myself, to think about the class in a way that wasn't like beating myself up, but reflecting on what could I have done? Did I do everything I needed to? What could have happened that would have been better for next time? So that can be even better next time. It's like a constant learning, and that's why I'd say yoga teaching is a practice, because it's a practice of honest reflection. Svadhyaya in Sanskrit, we say, is like self reflection and self study. And you can learn so much about yourself if you're willing to, you know, and especially in collaboration, like you said, by collaborating with students and really engaging them in that process. They'll tell you, sometimes it's hard to hear. They'll just tell you. They'll tell you what you're not doing well, if you're willing to hear it, it can be embarrassing. I've had that too, yeah, people just criticizing me, either right away or after, or writing a review or talking about me with another teacher. I mean, it's just human nature. And I think as yoga teachers, we're putting ourselves out in that very vulnerable position of being like in front, you know, public speaking, not just public speaking, but really being like a guide for people and a support and, yeah, it's a lot. That's why I don't want people to feel bad, because I think it's hard enough as it is.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:26
Thanks so much for that. And I mean, speaking of the art of teaching yoga, Accessible Yoga just launched a new course last week, The Art of Teaching Chair Yoga. Do you want to talk about that?
Jivana Heyman 54:38
Yeah, maybe that's why that phrase is on my mind, because when came up with that title for that course, that's kind of what I was thinking. Is just that sometimes I can't even find the words to express the depth and potential that exists within teaching, and especially teaching yoga. To me, it feels like kind of endless topic. So that made me think of it as an art, you know, that it's a craft that you can build over time and continue improving. So yeah, that course is a great example of what we're just talking about, where I want to spend time with yoga teachers. So actually, that course is designed, as you know, continued education for yoga teachers in particular. So a lot of my courses, I let yoga students. I mean, anyone can take it. I guess I'm not going to turn anyone away, but it's designed for yoga teachers specifically, and we're going to focus really clearly on teaching skills around chair yoga. But actually, those skills are really useful for any yoga teacher. I think chair yoga is something that every yoga teacher should be able to do and should be able to teach. And the skills that we talk about are skills that would make any teaching more helpful, like we talked about today. This was a great example, the topic we just covered, I think, is something we'll get to dive into more in the training, you know, cueing and the subtleties of our language and the way we speak and the way we teach, and the energy we bring to class. And then also, just like creating a class, sequencing classes, and creating a holistic, full experience within chair yoga. And chair yoga itself, I just have to say, like, going back to this conversation with Maitreyi and her book, and what I find is so beautiful, it feels to me that chair yoga is especially powerful to teach, because there's something about it where it's like, simplified, or what's the word for that? Do you know what I mean?
Jivana Heyman 56:41
Like, you're like, distilling things...
Jivana Heyman 56:43
Yeah. I think in chair yoga, we're distilling yoga into the essence. Which is so interesting, because I think a lot of people think of chair yoga as less than or something, like, somehow, you know, or that teaching it is like more beginning or like something that you do when you're just getting started in yoga? But it's like, to me, it's the most quote, advanced or challenging kind of teaching to do, where you have to distill the teachings down into a very accessible and like practical and doable pieces that communities who do chair yoga can absorb and benefit from. Do you know what I'm saying? So, like, there's something so beautiful about simplicity, and profound. Like, to make something simple is to actually have a better grasp of it. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:38
Yeah, absolutely. It takes a lot of skill, a lot of knowledge to be able to make something simple, right?
Jivana Heyman 57:44
Yeah, I think I wrote a post about that once. (You did. I think I just stole your words.) No, you probably edited my words in the first place. Most people don't know that you edit almost all my words. So thank you, Deanna, for improving my language and my communication skills. I've learned a lot from you on it. That's what you do. I mean, you do marketing and communication. So I think this is a topic you know a lot about.
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:07
Actually, yeah, it's true. I think to understand something quickly means that you have a good teacher, right? Like, I think sometimes there's a tendency to complicate things if you yourself don't understand it, and I'm speaking for myself too, right, like you're maybe still trying to work out what it actually means. But if you can say it plainly and simply, then yeah, that's an incredible skill to have.
Jivana Heyman 58:35
Yeah, to say it plainly and simply and actually and then to be able to do that as the teacher, or even like as a writer or communicating in social media or marketing, it seems to me that you also know, you need to know which are the important parts to focus on. Because I think if we look at yoga, contemporary yoga practice, there's a lot of complexity there that, to me, is distracting. And I think what happens in Accessible Yoga, especially in chair yoga, is a distilling down of that that actually allows us to get more to the point of what the practice is for. Because I think if you look at Instagram and hashtag yoga on Instagram, it's like, you're gonna see a lot that's overwhelming. And I think as a newer student, it's just too much, just too much information, you know? And I remember one of my big challenges, actually, when I started teaching, I think I wrote about this. Did I write about this in the newsletter recently? Was that I used to want to, like, give everything to everyone. Like, I used to teach really long classes and like, get into great detail. And I just realized I need to stop doing that. And like, for me, one of the things that I am continuing to consciously work on is to decide, what is the most potent and effective and simplest way to describe something, rather than having to give all of it? I could go into like a diatribe, is that a word, like a lecture about yoga philosophy in great detail, which I would love to do, but I don't think that often helps many of my students, they just want to, like, do something. So I just feel like, how do you balance that? How do you encompass something so complex and diverse as yoga into a simple chair yoga class? To me, that's one of the most beautiful challenges in the world, right, to take something so big and, you know, grand and also in a respectful way, concentrate it, like make it consolidated into this little, small class.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:52
I like that word, concentrated, because I don't think you're necessarily stripping it of nuance or depth by making anything simple, sometimes, like, you know, making it simple means that you can grasp the complexities a little bit more. Does that make sense?
Jivana Heyman 1:01:11
Orange juice concentrate. Okay, yeah. Chair yoga is like orange juice concentrate. Good analogy.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:22
Well, Jivana, we have a team meeting.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:25
Oh yeah, we have to go have a meeting. All right. Well, thanks everyone. Thank you. Thanks, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:30
Thanks, Maitreyi, this was a great conversation.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:33
Thank you, Maitreyi, for your bravery and all you do, and for being my friend and for being on the podcast. And thanks everyone for listening. Take care. Okay, bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:43
See you next time.
