Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land, and it's great to be with you. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it, and I really hope you enjoy this conversation. I had a wonderful talk with Heather Sheree Sanders, who's the founder of the Sedona yoga festival, among other things, and I just want to say how grateful I am to Heather and for all the people who work behind the scenes to make yoga happen in the world. You know, yoga teachers, in a way, we're spoiled. We get to be in the front, teaching and sharing, but in order to do that, so much has to happen behind the scenes. And I know because I've done that too. I spent decades managing and owning yoga studios. I ran the Accessible Yoga Conference for many years, and our nonprofit, and I know how much our team works right now at Accessible Yoga to make even this podcast accessible. So thank you to my whole team at Accessible Yoga. You know we have Robyn and Deanna, Brina, Crunch, Becky, and Mikus is who's producing this podcast. Thank you so much. You know this really wouldn't happen without all those people. And I just feel like we don't spend enough time offering gratitude to people who do that kind of administrative work. And if you if you do it, you know who you are, it's kind of the true karma yoga, the true service in the yoga world is the people who are doing that kind of management and marketing and organizing, making things happen. So anyway, Heather is one of those people. She mostly has been behind the scenes, organizing and supporting yoga teachers for so long, and that's why I wanted to have her on the podcast. So you know, thank you Heather, thank you again to everyone else who's doing that work in the world to make yoga happen and to allow us to reach more people. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Heather Sheree Sanders.
Jivana Heyman 2:46
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Jivana Heyman 4:05
Okay, so welcome everybody. I'm so happy to be here with Heather. Hey, Heather, how are you? (Hi!) How are you doing today?
Heather Sheree Sanders 4:12
I'm pretty, pretty good. You know, one day at a time. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 4:17
Yeah, same. It's challenging these days, the world feels particularly difficult. But before we talk about that, I just wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself a little bit more. I introduced you already before we started, but it be nice to hear it in your own words.
Heather Sheree Sanders 4:34
Sure. My name is Heather Sanders, and who am I and what do? Well, I'm here in Sedona, Arizona today, which, if you haven't been is a powerful vortex land in the southwestern part of the United States, where I have produced a yoga conference for 13-14, years. And I guess that's what I do. I've done that since I was young, bring people together, not always around yoga, but that has been the focus, because of all the gifts it's provided to me.
Jivana Heyman 5:09
Yeah, that's why I wanted to talk to you, because there's something I see in you that I really admire, and that's the, I don't know what it is exactly. I would call it a community organizer, you know, and kind of the karma yoga side, which I think is often ignored in the contemporary version of yoga that we're practicing. I think karma yoga sometimes just gets ignored as something you do to get free yoga classes, you go do karma yoga at the front desk of the studio. But that's not really what karma yoga is, right? It's like actually service and using the energy of our practice to care for others, I think, is really the point of all of it. And I see that in you, and I've just always admired that. And you know, I got to go to the festival, was it two years ago now? And I just saw how much work it was. I didn't realize it had been going on so long, but I just wondered about that, because I've also organized many conferences over my lifetime and done a lot of community organizing myself, and I know how challenging and rewarding it is. And I just wondered about that, is that something you do consciously, is it part of a practice for you, or just naturally, it's just who you are?
Heather Sheree Sanders 6:18
That's a great question, because it's both. Can I say it's both, and? (Yeah.) It's who I am in the sense that, ever since I was small, I've seen the potential of having each person play their part, their gift, bring their thing to the table with everybody else, culminating into something that is so much bigger than any one person can do. So I've done that since sibling birthday parties to school plays that turned into theater companies that lasted over a decade, you know, from age eight on. So I've done those things my whole life. So it's who I am, right? And I would find that I would get a little burned out after big productions, especially in my 30s, I just started feeling like, why do I do this? It's exhausting all the time. And you know, around that time, or a little earlier, is when I really started practicing yoga, in 1996. So what I discovered was that when I brought the yoga and this innate skill set together, I didn't get tired of it, right? I didn't feel, you know, at least not every year that I've done it. There's always extenuating circumstances, but the piece of it being with the both, and, it was like who you are, is it part of your practice? It is in my nature, and I've come to discover that it's my dharma, and also to discover that this, using that orchestration or directorial style and capacity that I hold within me, is very much a service, right? So I have some thoughts. We could go into karma yoga a little deeper, if you want at some point. For me, it's part of my practice. It replaces my regular teaching, which I used to do, because I think to be a regular, steady teacher, you need to be steadily present, right? Like I remember in my early days, if a sub walked into the studio, I'd just walk out. I'd be like, nope, you're not my teacher. So, I'm never in one place long enough, but this is a massive yoga gift. This is everything I've learned about yoga being presented in a programmatic experience that I'm providing, right, with the collaboration and participation of everyone who teaches.
Jivana Heyman 8:49
The festival, you mean? (Yeah, the conference.) Conference. Well, the name is Sedona Yoga Festival, right? Just so people know, I want them to be aware of it, and you know, hopefully join you. It's in the spring, right? Is it May? What is it?
Heather Sheree Sanders 9:07
This year it's April 23rd to 26th in 2026. It's moved around a little bit since everything was closed, trying to find our perfect date.
Jivana Heyman 9:17
So, let's talk about karma yoga more, because you said something that was interesting. You said that before you practiced yoga, that you would do that kind of community service or community organizing, and then it would lead to burnout, it sounded like, but then with yoga it didn't anymore. Was that because of the energy from your practice, you're saying? That that supported your service?
Heather Sheree Sanders 9:38
I love your capacity for framing things, because I've never thought about it exactly like that. I thought of it as until this very moment, thank you, Jivana, as my passion. You know my devotion and my passion being merged with my innate skill set and my purpose, right? Gave me that bottomless well of energy. But what you just said, which I love, was that, because in some way you could sort of flip that, because it became an act of service, that's why that happened.
Jivana Heyman 10:17
Yeah, yeah. I think that's the thing about service that's so exciting. I think people do innately do it. I think I see people all the time, all around me who are so service oriented and care for themselves and their families and their community in such beautiful ways. Like every time I don't know, I see someone just doing a good job at their work, like it's just remarkable to me, but I feel like it's often not connected back to what we think of yoga right now. And it's just so frustrating, because I think, wow, if you don't realize that this is a way not only to take the energy of your practice and focus it so that it doesn't just build your ego, but also work on yourself in such a powerful way and find more peace. I think that's the piece that's often missing, you know, in the current practice, it's not just physical, but really connecting with something a little more subtle, the peace of mind that I think can come through serving others so beautifully. And I know that, you know, some people, they maybe do it too much. And I wonder if maybe that's something you've dealt with too, that you tend to kind of, like, you said, get burned out, or just like, work yourself too hard.
Heather Sheree Sanders 11:32
I think you mentioned ego a couple times in there. So I think when someone's, I don't even want to say, you know, but people can get tired from service, if it's you know, not necessarily performative, but really just not natural, right? I think you mentioned how the yoga can cultivate the peace, you said so many things that sparked thoughts. I'm trying to circle back to them. So in the West, we've experienced yoga for quite some time, but it came to its most popularity or expanded its most reach in the last couple of decades, right? Few decades. Studios being primarily the place where people would engage with the practice, so mainly asana focused, right? And I think that people are ready, because we've had these few decades. I think a lot more people are ready than you think, or we might assume, because any aspect of the practice, when approached consistently right, will start to do its magic, its work you know on you to bring cultivate that awareness and discernment and inner peace and compassion. And there are a lot of people who've been in studios for decades now ready for more, right? So I think that was one of the things you said where maybe people aren't getting to go as deep. I think they're ready. And we're at a really pivotal moment, I think, in the industry itself, you know, so much changed when everything was closed because those studios were in person, indoor. You know, we've all learned to engage online in different ways that we didn't before. The opportunity is massive to really explore what it means. Like, down in the Phoenix Valley, here in Arizona, there's almost all, not entirely, but almost the majority of studios that remain in the valley down there are hot yoga studios that didn't close around the pandemic. So we've got a huge adjustment happening, and it's a really exciting time to explore. I took us to a different place, but I really didn't want to miss when you said something like, you know, people aren't going to that depth because, and I'll say one more thing about that. When I create the program for Sedona Yoga Festival, over the years, I've cultivated this application process. And the reason for it is, there is a surprising amount of ego in the yoga industry. And there are a lot of cliques, not just lineage cliques. And so there are a lot of people who don't participate in, you know, big events, or this or that, that I've been able to find now through that process, who are doing amazing work, who may have never thought to come present at a festival before, that are coming. And so it's my goal to bring the people who come to the event, that full scope of what's actually available to study in yoga.
Jivana Heyman 14:51
I get that. I got that feeling at the festival when I was there, and I don't mean to say that there aren't a lot of yoga practitioners who are really looking for that, it just seems like there is still that division, that some people are just focused on the physical aspects, and then there's a bunch of people that are really wanting to go deep. And I think those are the people that would, you know, make the effort to attend a conference, and I know those are the people that probably listen to this podcast, and who have been involved with Accessible Yoga for so long, you know, and I've met so many of them. We used to do conferences too, like before the well, in person, before the pandemic, we did in person conferences starting in 2015 but then we went online and did them for a couple years, and then the energy of the online conferences just kind of fizzled out and we stopped. But I was so impressed that you've been able to keep it going and then bring it back. And I just think those in person events can be really transformational. I mean, to be a practitioner, we need sangha, we need that community and I think it's just hard to find these days. So that's just a beautiful thing that you're offering. And I know you've done a lot of other stuff in yoga. I just wonder if you want to talk about any of that? I mean, the festival alone is amazing accomplishment, but you've been involved in other...?
Heather Sheree Sanders 16:05
Well, wait. I want to pick up on what you just said, if that's okay. (Okay, sure.) The being in person is like, we're all desperate for it right now. I don't know if you are anything like me, I realized recently that 20 years of emails is enough. Like I just...I don't want to, I don't want to! The tools that we have that connect us around the globe with each other are extraordinary, and they're undergoing a massive transformation, and yet, they're exhausting, right? Like the social media, all of it. I think I can feel just kind of in the collective that being together in person right now, more than ever, is really, really crucial. Like, it's like, let's bring back human engagement. I've thought about getting Faraday bags and leaving phones outside of certain class, things like that. I'm trying to figure that out for the festival. Don't panic, bring your phone. No one will be forced to do anything. But the piece about community, what I also realized that's really important is, you know, I had to ask myself, because sometimes it's hard, like events are a lot of work, and they could be high risk, you know, and I experience, if I experience a setback, which I have before, I really asked myself, am I creating community? And I was like, no, actually, no, but I am bringing community leaders together, right? And that's what really got me thinking about studios right now, being the foundation of community, right? So by bringing these community leaders together, and two out of three people who come to the festival are yoga professionals or wellness professionals, you know, self identified. That other third is, you know, what an extraordinary opportunity to come for four days and really try everything that you're drawn to, as opposed to, you know, putting 1000s down for a week long retreat when you don't even really want to do right? So it's a yoga education, but it's a networking. It's like, we build community. I don't do it, the community is converging. From there, a lot of collaborations. So I guess, in a way, I am, but from from there, a lot of collaborations are sparked and nurtured, and people will come together and do things
Jivana Heyman 18:27
I love that. We used to have, at every Accessible Yoga Conference, I would give a homework assignment at the opening. (Sounds fun!) Yeah, to everyone gathered, which you can borrow from me if you want. Which was that during this time we're together, find at least one person to connect with here and to do something for. So like, find someone you can actually support in some way, and that could mean helping them find some other work, or helping them share their message by sharing their social media, or actually collaborating on a project together. But like that was an assignment they had during that weekend together, and incredible things came out of that. Whole organizations, actually. And I think you're really doing the same, but I like what you said you're not really building the community. Because actually, that's kind of how I feel too. It's like my work really is about supporting yoga teachers, and I think of them all as leaders, and I don't think they always do. You know, I don't know if they perceive themselves as leaders or understand kind of what it means to be a leader. And I feel like you do understand. I just wonder if you have, I don't know, advice for yoga teachers to really embrace that aspect of what it means to be a yoga teacher, to step into leadership.
Heather Sheree Sanders 19:41
So, I think, you know, if we're striving to lead in the yoga community, then we do need to understand karma yoga, because it needs to be heart led, right, and not top down. There's a lot that has happened, especially in this last 15 years, 14-15, years in the yoga community, with heavy a lot of heavy weights, a lot of gurus, a lot of leaders in the yoga community, you know, falling, stumbling down, right? And a reminder that we're all human, and we're all practicing in this practice. It's a practice, you know, nobody's meant to be perfect. So I think I'm trying to not go too circuitous to make this point, but there's a tendency to put people on a pedestal. There's a tendency towards spiritual transference, and when someone is capable of sharing with you something as powerful and meaningful that will impact your life as much as it does as a yoga practice, right? Um, we want to admire and separate. And I, I would discourage the student from assigning that to the person and maybe the tool. The trick is to look at yourself and say, you know, projecting or putting someone on a pedestal is really a narcissistic kind of act. It's not seeing that what's within you that's awakening, and so the teacher, if the teacher is going to lead, the teacher can't do it for the student, right? And I think naturally, someone will become a leader if they're the kind of teacher that wants to embody the practice, you know, that can embody the practice by having one that's regular and modeling it and not pretending to be something that they're not, not pretending to be perfect, and not telling the students the answers, but really just helping them find what it is. So I don't know if that answers your question. A teacher doesn't have to be a community leader. A teacher can just be a teacher, because we need great teachers. And not every student needs to become a teacher. We don't need every student to become a teacher.
Jivana Heyman 22:09
That's true. But, I don't know if I agree with you. I think every teacher is a leader. I just think being in that role and being in the front of the room means you're leading that group. But I agree with what you said earlier, which is that I think to kind of paraphrase what you said, it's about being humble. So I think being a humble leader and practicing what you preach is the key. So I think that's been lacking in the yoga world, for sure, but I think recognizing the role that you have, or like the position of authority that you hold when you step into the role of teacher is essential, because I do think it comes with a responsibility, and I just feel like that's probably an ethical responsibility. And I think if you don't recognize that you're the teacher, that you're a leader, then you maybe just pretend or ignore the fact that there's a higher ethical I don't know what, like boundary for you. Like, we really need to recognize that, I think, to be an effective teacher. And if you think poorly of yourself, and that's not what I mean by humility, if you actually have poor self esteem, and you go and teach and you think, I'm not really a teacher, I'm not really a leader. I'm just messing around or something. I think that's where the trouble comes, or through narcissism, either way, like narcissism or like poor self esteem, I think are the same. Do you know what I mean? They're just like two sides of the coin. I think there's a balanced place where you recognize your own abilities and strengths, but with humility and to recognize that also probably, like for me, like I didn't create any of this. Whatever I'm teaching, I've learned from someone else, and I'm just sharing what I know. And I totally mess up all the time. Sometimes I do well, sometimes I don't. I do my best. I try to be honest about it. I think that's the key. But people look up to me when I'm in the role of teacher. And I think that's what we need to remember, though, is the value of that. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that position that we hold. I don't think it's respected enough, honestly, and especially that relationship that we have, you know, the teacher-student relationship feels often degraded. It's a relationship, you know, it's an important relationship that we have, and there's mutual responsibility there in that relationship. Anyway.
Heather Sheree Sanders 24:27
I love that. I mean, everything in yoga, ultimately, is about relationship. It's really teaching us, you know, liberating us to the awareness of our relationship with all that is, our interconnectedness with all it is, is practiced through relationship, through relationship with everyone that we interact with, our teachers and ourselves, and that time that we spend practicing it right? So everything is relationship. Also, a little disclaimer here. I'm not sitting here saying, you know, as a yoga teacher, you should act like this, right? But I do want to agree with you on the ethics piece, because that's clearly outlined for us within, you know, what Patanjali put together for all of us, right? There's a lot of places where ethical behavior is outlined when you go to it and I think that, I can see what you're saying. Yeah, those teachers are leaders. And, yeah, the profession that being a yoga teacher is still in a wild west mode. You know, there's a model for fitting in, like, you should know all these things if you want to be a yoga teacher. We've got that model. We've had that for a while. The registry, right, Yoga Alliance? And, you know, people are always trying to figure it out. And every time they do, ethics becomes really one of the big, important parts of the conversation. But there's no, you know, you can talk all day about things like licensing, or, you know, requirements or, and there's a lot of different people with a lot of different things to say about it, you know?
Jivana Heyman 26:02
Well, I just wanted to go back to your history, because I do think it's important for people to know how much you've worked in that area. I met you, I think, first in Burlington. I taught in Burlington, Vermont, and I think that's where you're from. So you were there. It was so amazing. We got to hang out in Burlington, then I got to meet you again at the festival in Sedona. And I think you started some of your work in Burlington, right? There was an event you said, I can't remember what it was called.
Heather Sheree Sanders 26:30
Oh yeah, there's an event that started in the summer of 2004 called, The Ramble. And that's actually still going. It's 21 years. A celebration of creativity and community in the Old North End. So that's one of those where, you know, I worked with Lee Anderson, who runs the radio, being there still, and we said, let's make a bike parade, live music at night, and a block party and everybody else, whatever you want to do, we'll put it on a map. So, it's fun. The first few years, people are like, what do you want us to do? Well, you know, play some bluegrass on your porch, or, if you have a restaurant, put some art up, and, you know, have a little part. And now it's thriving. It's fun. It's a beautiful community there.
Jivana Heyman 27:08
It's amazing, I mean, and then Yoga Unify, which I don't know if you can share a little bit about that, just that people may not realize that you were so involved in that too, that effort, which I thought was really great just trying to look at that question of organizing yoga teachers, supporting yoga teachers on a larger scale.
Heather Sheree Sanders 27:30
Yeah, that was a collaborative experiences as well. That was really exploring what other opportunities there would be to identify yourself as a yoga professional. And it was a great Covid project. So a few of us spent some time dreaming up what that would be like, and I was put into the, you know, be the executive director person, and managed to assemble three different councils. My approach was very similar to what I described at the beginning of this podcast, which was sometimes it's slower, but it's so much more meaningful when you bring a lot of voices to the table. So three councils that made up about 75 amazing leaders in the yoga community, that that were on ethics, community investment, and education. And we did come up with a system of competencies, a whole peer review system, at a certain level, and then entry system, so that the teacher could really identify where they were and then move into mentorship. So that was really beautiful. Ultimately, unfortunately, you know, we had about 500 members of the yoga community that joined the founding circle, and it seemed to be humming along. But sometimes, you know, these things are complicated. You know, this kind of just when it came down to really ready to launch, just kind of was dissolved, you know, and chose not to move forward. So that that was really interesting, though, because what an honor to be able to engage like Rama Vernon, who's been one of my mentors, you know, started Unity and Yoga, or was involved in that it, which became Yoga Alliance and started Yoga Journal with some friends on the kitchen table. Or, you know, I don't know that those stories are all, who knows, but brought conferences and peace conferences together.
Jivana Heyman 29:30
She's incredible. If people don't know her, they should look her up.
Heather Sheree Sanders 29:34
Yeah. So she was on the Council for Education for me, there was just such an amazing group of people. And I learned a lot about, you know, what the yoga community is asking for. You've echoed it in this conversation, people want a little bit more, you know, respect and the opportunity to succeed, but also support and accountability. And it helps to define really where you are at your stage as a teacher, because now we just say yoga teacher, but really, you've got people who can full on transmit through the ethers, like everything about yoga, you know. And then you've got people who just walked out of their training who just want to teach, like, a bunch of times a week to get better at it, right, you know?
Jivana Heyman 30:18
I mean, I have to say, it's not really always about how long you've been teaching, because I've been teaching 30 years, and sometimes I don't know what I'm doing. The more I do it, the less I know. Let's just say that. But I want to ask you another question. Thank you, though, for sharing about your story a little bit and all the work you've done, because I actually mostly just want to appreciate you and just say that I feel like you're one of those people who's been working behind the scenes in the yoga world for a long time, and that, you know, not everyone's going to know your name. Maybe they will. Maybe they do already. I don't know, but I just feel like people should recognize your contribution, and especially the work that I love, which is that kind of community, whatever you want to call it, I call it community organizing, but it feels like activism. Honestly. It's like, you know how we really make change in the world, connecting people together, supporting them. Anyway, it touches me deeply, which is what I wanted you here.
Heather Sheree Sanders 31:14
You know, I love that you tied activism, and if you're ready for another question, I don't have to say what I was going to say. (No, go ahead!) When you said activism that, you know, what a complicated time. You know, because I am passionate about world events. I've always considered myself a global citizen. When I was young, I don't even think it's possible now, I used to say I'm going to walk around the planet without any money or a passport. That was like my life goal, right? So, um, you know, it's complicated. And I asked myself if what I'm doing now is enough, or if, you know, not positioning the conference on one side or another is correct. And what I've determined really is that it is enough, and it is correct, because yoga will affect people on a collective level, one heart and one mind at a time, and ultimately, as we discussed before, what it's teaching us is the understanding. It's helping us to gain the awareness of our connection with everything else and every one else, everything that is, which you know, is going to cultivate compassion. And I think you know, if we cannot individually lift up the collective, it's really up to each individual. And so my practice and effort in the world right now is the tools of yoga helping one individual at a time. And so those doors are open. I mean, I think my programming is going to demonstrate a lot of things that will help people select whether it's appropriate for them. But I love the audience we've cultivated over the years. You know, a little bit older, highly educated, you know, people, a lot of people have graduate degrees. Almost half who come which, I don't know how that happened, but the programming is studious, but it's fun. That's why festival and conference get mixed up in my mind. Because you can, you know, get a full on yoga education in four days. But you can also really transform. And one thing about Sedona is that individual, that collective energy, you know, it is posited that Sedona's power as an amplifier and a purifier expands the ripple effect. And we, you know, there's scientific studies that show when people come together in large groups and practice together, that it does impact the area around them. So in Sedona, we feel like it impacts a lot further, yeah, you know.
Jivana Heyman 33:59
I appreciate that and I agree. I think sharing yoga is political, because that's where transformation happens. You can touch people's hearts and help people recognize that the world is a reflection of them and they can see themselves in others. I think that shifts the way that we interact. And we can look back at history to see that, the importance of spiritual awakening in times of revolution, and so I'm still hopeful. I feel the same way, like, I used to be an activist on the streets getting arrested during my AIDS activist days, and now I feel like I'm still busy doing that stuff, but I'm not necessarily on the street. I'm trying to be more thoughtful. I love that part too, and the people that are doing that these days, I'm just so grateful for, but I feel like trying to make yoga accessible to people who don't think they can do it, and trying to help people recognize their humanity and the humanity of other people is a political revolution in itself. And so I feel like that's happening with your work, too. But before we go on about that, I did have one more question, which I asked all my guests, and that's just if there's a story? I mean, I kind of liked you the story you just shared, that one of your visions as you're when you're younger was to walk around the world without money or passport. But I just wonder if there's a story or a teaching or something that, from your past, that is supporting you right now, if there's something that's been present for you? I ask this all the time, because this is my 30th anniversary of teaching, and I'm trying to really spend this entire year reflecting on that. What does that mean? What does it mean to have practiced before, like, how does what I've learned, how am I using that now? How is it informing everything I do now?
Heather Sheree Sanders 35:56
A teacher once said to me, and I think it came from Buddhist practices, but sweep away the dust of your anger, sweep away the dust of your desire, and so in every thing you do, right? So in Sedona, we might call it shadow work, right? Yoga, we might call it, you know, addressing samskaras and vasanas, right? And the practice that I found most effective for that for me is yoga nidra, and so I lucid dream. In that great, awesome state between, you know, dream and sleep, and almost asleep, but still aware. You know, these places in the different states of being as we know them, or as yoga teaches them. That, I have found for me, is the most supportive practice that allows me to access and transform much more quickly than anything else at this stage in my practice. Asana is supportive. It's just supportive of being able to drop into yoga nidra well, it's supportive of being able to drop into meditation. It's supportive of, you know, intending a long life and taking care of this here that's carrying, you know, my Atman, right? So it's like, the importance of that work cannot be understated, because we will carry these things according to the teachings of yoga until we don't. And so if we are unprepared or incapable of seeing where our conditioning is preventing us from relating in a authentic and devotional, unmasked love-filled way with everyone that we're encountering, then we still have work to do, right? So the ultimate goal, and who's there really, who's really there? Like, I never have a mask on. I'm showing love, receiving love too. Showing love and receiving love. You know, if you are blocked in any of those places, you know you've got stuff to look at. And what a beautiful opportunity, as we move through the world in relationship with others, they show us over and over again, where to look and so, yeah, yoga nidra has been, you know, the key practice for me for a long time now.
Jivana Heyman 38:28
That's amazing. You just said that so beautifully. I don't know if you have anything else you want to share, but otherwise, I think we could just leave it there, because that was really profound, and I appreciate it.
Heather Sheree Sanders 38:40
Thanks. Yeah, we can leave it. You mean the yoga nidra part or the whole interview?
Jivana Heyman 38:46
No, the whole thing. If there's anything else you want to share with us, any other brilliant pieces of advice for our listeners.
Heather Sheree Sanders 38:54
I do want to share something else. I want to share the part of where you just said it. You said, you know the importance of the work that you were doing about helping people who don't think yoga is accessible to them, to understand that it is. And Arizona is, like, one of the most fit and spiritual states in the nation, right? According to, I don't know what studies, I've read about it, but also I see it. And I've received pushback sometimes, like, you know, you're bringing somebody who doesn't look, you know, ableism. I've seen, I've received that where I might not be bringing the typical yoga look. And I have to say that it's been about, you know, it's been the whole time, but really, in 2016 I dialed it in and just was not going to back down. Like, I am deconstructing that yoga looks like me, right? Like white, slim yoga girl, right? And in 2016 I could probably have done, you know, an awesome natarajasana on, you know, and I still can. But the importance of that can also can't be understated, because there's a reason there's 1000s of techniques of yoga, and it's because everyone can do yoga. There is something for everyone, whatever the key entry point is for you, you know, my practice was very physical for the, you know, beginning, the whole beginning, that was it. I needed the classes, the unlimited passes, the whole thing, right? But the work that you do is extraordinary. It's been a pleasure to be able to work with you and to continue to bring teachers who can show us all the ways. So at the festival, I'll make sure there's, you know, chair yoga and restorative and all bodies and pranayama and yoga nidra and pretty much everything. I try to just do everything. And I'm in Sedona, so the complementary therapies, but that work, we shouldn't forget only just started. You've been a leader in that space, and, you know, since before 2020, but I think the opportunities that came from that period of when George Floyd protests happened, and you know, Black Lives Matter, and the conversation really opened up in the United States in a way that I hadn't in my lifetime to really address, you know, ableism, racism, all the real, deep, hidden, gross things that societally we carry and clearly, has brought them all to light, right? Because we're really seeing a lot of arguments right now and a lot of positioning, less than what we used to picture as the success or the fit or the right person for the thing. It's wild out there. We know that. But, yeah, this work is important, but it's only just beginning. So you've been ahead of it, and you're you've built a community around it, like we talked about before, but there's still a lot of work to do to keep reminding people how every single person matters and can engage with really whatever system of anything that they want to in the world, whether, in our case, it's yoga.
Jivana Heyman 42:01
Yeah, there's still a lot of work to do, but I appreciate that. I think it is essential, right? It's that it's like DEIA all of a sudden is really under attack, directly. And I think that's what we're talking about, you know? And in the context of yoga, I think that it's interesting to reflect on how Westernized yoga and contemporary yoga has made yoga less accessible, and maybe we need to go back to some of the traditional forms, like we talked about, just even with karma yoga. I think this is useful to share, just to support everyone in remembering that there are really so many paths of yoga. It can be whatever you know, not whatever you want it to be, but it can be individualized for you. And so I think that's the piece that is often lost. You know, yoga is seen as being one thing, rather than recognizing that it's a profound set and group of teachings and you can find the ones that you need right now, which is so powerful. I could talk to you forever.
Heather Sheree Sanders 43:01
The Sedona Festival is a great place to go. I hope to see people in April. Thank you so much for me on, it was such a pleasure to talk with you.
Jivana Heyman 43:10
You too. I love talking to you. Thanks so much, Heather. All right, take care.
Jivana Heyman 43:25
Hey there. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:27
Hello, Jivana. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 43:29
I'm good. I'm a little sore. I just did a 5k yesterday.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:33
That's exciting. You're on a kick of races.
Jivana Heyman 43:38
I am. I am on a kick of exercise. An exercise kick. It's just been really great for me, yeah, just pushing my body a little bit because, you know, as I get older, I feel like I need to go a little harder, but I'm feeling it today, yeah. How are you doing?
Jivana Heyman 43:56
I think you have a reel somewhere that says how to get rid of post race stiffness. (Oh right!) So you have to refer to your own practice.
Jivana Heyman 44:03
Yeah, using tennis balls. I know. I actually had one right under my foot a minute ago and it rolled away. But I actually keep a tennis ball at my desk, and I often roll them under my feet while I'm sitting and doing desk work, but I should use it on my legs. My thighs are sore. Anyway, how are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:22
I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for asking. Not much to report over here, but I really enjoyed listening to your podcast with Heather.
Jivana Heyman 44:28
Yeah, she's so great. I appreciate her, all her work, and I'm glad she spent time with me and we got to have that conversation and to share it with everyone. What stood out to you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:41
A few things. One of the things that really stood out was kind of talking about, I think you two were discussing how yoga in the West has been so asana focused. And it sounded like she thought, from her like experience, that people aren't ready for more than an asana focused experience, a which I appreciated. A very pivotal moment in his in yoga history's timeline here, which I thought was super interesting, thinking about, like, yoga as an evolution here in the West, and maybe that there is this watershed moment, and we're kind of maturing.
Jivana Heyman 45:16
Gosh, I hope so. You know, the thing is, like, I was introduced to yoga, well, first, from my grandmother, and for her, it was a very much a holistic practice. And then, you know, when I went in my 20s and started practicing with a teacher, I found Kazuko Onodera in Berkeley, California. She was a student of Swami Satchidananda, that's the school of Integral Yoga, and it was very much a holistic practice. And so I was introduced to it that way. So I feel like, in the 90s and pre that, like, when yoga first came to the West, and like, through that time period, it was pretty holistic. And then I think it shifted as yoga became asana focus, it kind of exploded, and maybe now we're getting back to some of what it was, but it feels to me, I still see a huge focus on asana. Like when I run programs, and if there's an asana focus, I always get more people signing up for those, as you know, since you helped me so much with all that. It's just kind of where people are still, but maybe the people that are like sticking with it are going deeper.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:23
I certainly think there's an openness to more, right, like, because I think asana is a doorway for a lot of folks, right? That's how I came into yoga as well. And I think also my personal story is probably similar to a lot of folks, right, where I was super into asana, doing it, doing it, doing it. I felt fortunate to have teachers who would introduce, like, the yama and the niyama in classes in certain ways. It was almost like, you know, they were serving the peas in the mac and cheese and those sorts of concepts.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:23
They're adding veggies to the mac and cheese. That was the analogy? Okay.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:59
That was the analogy like, but those were things that I still think about.
Jivana Heyman 47:03
I totally did that to my kids, and then they started noticing it only worked. It only worked when they were younger. And then, yeah, that only went so far.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:11
Maybe this was, like, late onset nutrition where, like, after I got, like, injured in asana, I started realizing there was more to it, and I needed more, right? There was more that yoga had. And, like, that's when I got into more subtle practices, and I realized how spacious I could feel with certain meditations, with breath work. So that's when the peas really, like, shown they were inert for a while. But I think there is an especially, just, we're in this time, right? Like, it's a physical activity, quote, unquote, how yoga is served. You know, not what asana is intended for, but how it's like presented isn't enough these days, with all we're contending with in the world.
Jivana Heyman 47:50
I think I'm, like, devolving. I'm going the opposite way, because obviously now I'm doing all this physical...like I'm doing triathlons and 5ks, and I run and bike and swim, and I still do it my kind of gentle asana, which is funny, I probably should just go to some hot yoga class to get my asana on, but I just can't. It's like, for me, yoga is not that, and I don't want to turn into that, like, I get a lot of benefits from the physical practice, but I don't go to yoga for exercise. It's spiritual practice for me, and I think that's what you're saying. I do feel like anyone who practices yoga for a period of time has that experience, and they might use different words for it. Not everyone will call it spiritual or spirituality, which is fine, but yoga is doing it anyway. Yoga works on us no matter how we practice.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:40
It's that's what Heather said, too, which I appreciated. I think it was along the lines of, and I wrote this down. This might not be her exact quote, you all can look at the transcript. "Any aspect of the practice, when approached consistently, will do its magic to cultivate awareness, discernment, inner peace and compassion." And I thought that was so right on,
Jivana Heyman 48:58
That was beautifully said. Yes, exactly! I also love the focus on karma yoga, and we talked about that a lot, and service. I think that's the that's the missing piece to me in the West, and the way that contemporary practice is done, even people who see yoga as a spiritual practice often forget that that's the ultimate goal, is service. And so I think what's happened a bit in the West is even people that go into the subtle practice, they're maybe doing pranayama, doing meditation. It's still quite self involved, and it's still about kind of, like being better, or even, or just, I don't know, there's like an inward focus, and that's maybe needed, and some people do need that. But I think service has to be the outlet for all the energy that we build in our practice. Otherwise, I think, I'm afraid it can build the ego. And I think that's a bit missing. So I feel like with so many millions of people practicing yoga, it doesn't seem like we're getting less egotistical.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:58
I mean, one look at the feed, and it's yeah, you kind of wonder where all that meditation is going. But also, you know, you also look around and there are lots of positive actions in the world. A lot of people like working towards something that's for justice. So I you know, and it's all in a million small ways. People might be carrying out service in their lives without maybe, you know, it doesn't land on a feed. It doesn't land in a news feed. Those are probably what we need right now the most, these little actions that build towards something bigger.
Jivana Heyman 50:33
Yeah, and I hope that anyone listening who has a regular yoga practice just reflects on that, exactly what you just said. It doesn't have to be a big thing, little actions, little acts of service. What was it you said? Random Acts of Kindness? But I think that became so cliche that it lost its meaning, when I think it's true that it's like, yeah, little acts of service, which is just a way of of showing or expressing love, actually to others, to other beings. It doesn't even have to be people. It could be an animal or a plant or nature in general, just connecting and feeling, seeing yourself in others and acting with that in mind, I think, is really the goal of the practice, and I think that's sometimes missing in the West. Like I said, even though, even if someone's doing what they think of as a holistic practice, it feels to me that somehow that's lacking. And Heather, like, just to bring it back to Heather, I think she is just the perfect example of someone who's done an incredible service like her work is really around community building and connection. And I think it's a beautiful service to the world that she's offering.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:44
Absolutely. Yeah, thanks for sharing this conversation with everyone. (Yes. Thanks, Heather.) Jivana, we actually have a voicemail this week, which is really exciting. (Yay!) I'd love to play it if you're ready. (Yes, I love that.) And this voicemail is from Eric Johnson.
Jivana Heyman 52:01
Eric! Oh my god, Eric. I know Eric. We're friends on Facebook, and he always says the nicest things on my posts. That's so great. See, there's some service he does. He does some random acts of service.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:14
All right, I'm going to play Eric's question now.
Eric 52:17
Hi, Jivana. This is Eric Johnson from Alton, Illinois. I'm a recovering codependent, as Ross Rosenberg says, someone suffering from self love deficit disorder. And during the pandemic, I took yoga teacher training, which was really great. It was all online, and I really, really grew and healed from it. But since then, I haven't been able to get the courage to go to a yoga studio. It seems very frightening. And I, you know, a lot of codependents suffer from self esteem issues, and I do. And so I wondered, my question is, what does yoga have to say for building courage? That's my question. Hope you're well, thanks. Bye.
Jivana Heyman 53:13
Oh my god, I love that question. That's so great, Eric. I feel like, Oh my God. I feel like...oh, my God. I feel like we could have planted that question. Actually, it feels related to the conversation we were just having, in a sense, which is, I think what I was trying to get at earlier, when I was talking about service, is around the fact that, you know, yoga builds energy, builds prana. That's really what's happening in our practice, especially if you're doing asana, pranayama, meditation, you're building prana in your system. Actually, what you're doing is, in asana you're actually preparing the body so that it can, it can handle more energy. And pranayama, you're doing that with the subtle nervous system, the nadis, right, the energy channels. You're kind of cleaning them, purifying them so that they can handle more prana. Prana is energy, right? And then in meditation, you're releasing that prana to move through your system. And I think that can be incredibly healing for us. But like I said, also what happens is it supports whatever in your mind. So the reason that yoga starts with ethical practices of classical yoga starts with the yamas, as you mentioned earlier, the ethical teachings of yoga, like non-harm, non-violence, is because yoga gives you so much energy and so much power that you have to have clear guidelines that basically direct that energy, and so it's really essential that there's an ethical structure for the practice, otherwise it becomes misused. And I think that's why we see a lot of abuse in spiritual communities and yoga in the yoga tradition, at least in recent times we've seen so much abuse by people who seem like they're experienced practitioners, right, who have a lot of energy. But it seems like, my perception of it is that, and this is just me, is that all that energy they have has supported an unethical mind, a mind that is still selfish and greedy. So it's just really essential that we have this ethical structure in place, so that all the energy that you're producing is used in a good way, in a positive, service oriented way. And that's why service is so important. You focus on others rather than yourself. And that's really another essential teaching here is that yoga is about transcending the ego mind, because the ego mind is limited. And again, it's about building up your own power.
Jivana Heyman 55:45
I think one of the essential questions of yoga is like, how can you handle power? How do you handle power? And so, I mean, I'm not really answering Eric's question, but I'll just say that I think, for people who have, well, like Eric's whatever he said he has, low self esteem, or what did he call it? (Co-dependency.) Codependency. But anyone who feel, anyone who's had trauma, or anyone who has a marginalized identity who has been oppressed, like for me as a queer person, I think yoga becomes an incredibly important source, source of power for us. Or if you're disabled, or you're an older person, or you just feel defeated by the world oppressing you, yoga becomes a source of power, which is so essential just to survive, just get through, like, horrible situations. And I talk about that a lot in my book, Yoga Revolution. In fact, the subtitle is, "Building a Practice of Courage and Compassion." So Eric, it's almost like he knew what he was asking. But that's what I was trying to get out with that subtitle, courage and compassion. What I mean is that, if you are a person who needs support, yoga can offer that to you, if you have what you need, if you have enough energy, if you feel like you have privilege and you're building energy in your practice, how are you using it? And that's the compassion piece. So I think it's a self reflection question, and it's something that can change day to day or throughout your lifetime. Sometimes your practice will be there just to support you because you're not feeling well, or you need to heal, or because you yeah, even low self esteem, I think, is it a good example of that. You just need some courage, but other times you feel great, like yoga just gives you this amazing feeling of like being at ease and joyful, and that's when you really need to share it with others. You need to find an outlet to turn that energy into service, or at least to be compassionate to others, and to try not to allow it to build your ego. So anyway, my answer for Eric is simply just practice. Like, I don't know if there's like, a specific answer for him, other than do your practice and know that yoga is working on you, and when you're ready, you'll be there to serve. First of all, you also don't need to teach like. There's no requirement in the world, in the yoga world, to be a yoga teacher. And I think that we've done something weird in the West with yoga teacher training, where it becomes a requirement to end up teaching. I love it, and I love teaching, and I think it's an incredible service. But people can take yoga teacher training and just do it for their own practice. That's awesome. Do you know what I mean?
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:51
Absolutely, absolutely. And I know that you and Heather covered on that too, which was a super interesting part of the conversation that I appreciated.
Jivana Heyman 58:59
Yeah, the last thought I have for Eric? Well, I think it's my last thought. I hope I won't talk too long about this, because it's such an exciting question. And I really, I'm grateful for his willingness to be, you know, just to put it out there that way, and what courage it takes. Like, there's a, there's a certain irony in his question, because I think, actually, it's very courageous to speak that out loud in public, you know? So I think he's more courageous than he realizes. I'll just say that, and it reminds me of the Bhagavad Gita and the whole narrative, which is literally based on Arjuna's confusion and and the, you know, the beginning of the narrative, the beginning of the Gita, starts where Arjuna is just overwhelmed because he sees that he has to fight his family members, and he knows he should, he knows it's the right thing to do, but he doesn't want to, because they are people he cares about. He sees that it's not necessarily an easy thing to do. He's faced with a challenge. He's having a crisis of consciousness. And so the whole Gita begins with Krishna basically telling him he needs to get up and do it, like stand up and fight, right? And I can even read to you there's a section the beginning of the Gita where it's very famous, in chapter two, sloka seven, where Arjuna says, "I'm weighed down with weak mindedness. I'm confused and cannot understand my duty. I beg of you to say, for sure, what's right for me to do. I'm your disciple. Please teach me, for I have taken refuge in you." And the reason I bring that up is that path of bhakti yoga is what you consider, that kind of surrender is basically a bhakti practice, you know, practice of devotion, of surrendering to some image of the Divine. And I feel like that helped me a lot. You know, as an extremely shy, queer person, when I was young. I definitely had self esteem issues. And maybe it's what Eric was saying. I think I was really a people pleaser, and I was just trying to, like, get through the world without being seen, like no one would know I'm there. And I had to find some sense of, like, God or Spirit within myself that I could surrender to, and it wasn't necessarily external. I mean, there was a time where I had a guru and that became, like the focus for me, was my teacher. But I saw eventually, that's part of me, right, the guru element that's within us, and that was huge, so that I could feel like that was what I was reaching for when I went to teach, that it wasn't me so much like me and my mind, that we're going to go sit in front of the group, but it was this other piece of me that was doing it. Maybe that's because I'm a Gemini. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:07
It does. And you know, actually, this kind of goes full circle to your conversation with Heather, and when you had asked, like, the teaching that really changed her life, and she mentioned yoga nidra, but it was all couched in like, how the practice, I believe this is what she meant, like, really helped recognize her Atman, right? Like you were just saying, and helping her see. And this is also a quote from Heather, "Seeing where our conditioning is preventing us from relating in an authentic and devotional, unmasked, love filled way from everyone we're encountering." And I thought that was also really powerful. And so, yeah, that inquiry of like, what is, what sort of conditioning is preventing someone from relating in an authentic way in space, whether that's, you know, a yoga studio, or otherwise.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:58
That's beautiful. Heather is really brilliant. I have to say.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:02
I love the all these teachings, like this is profound stuff.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:06
Yeah, yeah. I really, I loved it too. I love talking to her, and I love Eric's question. I'm really moved by it. And just, yeah, just touched that he shared that. I think a lot of Accessible Yoga teachers share that kind of insecurity or something. Because, in fact, I had a group that just completed an Accessible Yoga Training online. And the last day we had together, I spent really talking about this idea of like, to me, there's like a paradox or something, that the people who see themselves as teachers so easily are often the ones who already have this, like, privilege. They're already in some privileged place, but it's people who generally don't think they're good enough, or, you know, they can't do the poses well enough, or, you know, I don't know, whatever they're ashamed of, something about themselves. Maybe they have a marginalized background, like I said, or they're oppressed. Those are the ones who I think make the best teachers and who need to be teaching, because I think that makes more people see themselves in those people, like those are the people who I want to encourage to actually get out there and get over their fear. She talked about that too. She talked about fear, right? Talked about like, dust. What did she say? Like, wipe it away? What was that quote? Something about dust being scattered.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:04:22
It was the Buddhist teaching. "Sweep away the dust of your anger, sweep away the dust of your desire, and so on."
Jivana Heyman 1:04:34
Right. I mean, the thing that I got from that is also that those are actually obstacles to service. And I think that, you know, it's ironic that it's actually, let me say it this way, if you're shy, it's also ego. You know, I'm an extremely shy person, and I had to recognize that's also having a big ego.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:04:54
Talk about that more!
Jivana Heyman 1:04:58
Because so, you know, ego is the part of you that is consumed with self image and power and yeah, like, what other people think of you? I'll speak for myself. As an extremely shy person, someone who is people pleasing, all I wanted was people to like me, like I was so consumed by that, that the idea of being criticized or being wrong was, like, unbearable. That's ego. That was my ego. It is still my ego. I still am shy, but I actually got over myself because I practiced enough, like I literally now speak in public and teach constantly, even though I grew up never speaking at all, like trying to hide from the world. So I would just say that, going back to Eric, like he's asking the right question. I think that doing the practice is the key. You just keep at it. It'll be there for you. Find a focus for your devotion, and let that speak through you, let that teach through you. That's the thing. Like, I just want to go back to, I said, the gurutattva, the guru element, I think is an important concept, because the guru principle, we call it. And I quoted the Gita for that reason, which is that I think these days, you know, the whole idea of a guru has kind of been thrown out the window for understandable reasons. Like, I think most people are afraid of that and it feels like a dangerous thing, almost, but I think that we have to reframe it, because it's an important element that can get us through those that those challenging times, and get us over our own egos limitations, by recognizing that we have that within us. So the true guru lives within and we can try to connect with that and teach from that place or speak from that place whenever we're speaking.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:06:47
Yeah, and also it's a service to the world to be in touch with that authentic place that we all kind of share, that inner, you know, ephemeral space within. It's not ephemeral. It's just always present, yeah? And so just maybe a people pleasing hack, it's a service to share your authentic self with everyone else, like you're kind of withholding from the world, right?
Jivana Heyman 1:07:09
Like, again, I don't know Eric well, but I know just from him commenting on my Facebook posts for years, he's been incredibly supportive. He's obviously brilliant. He always has some real great insight when I post about yoga philosophy, I mean, he has a lot to share. I can just say that about Eric, from what just the little I know of him, and I can see that in so many people in our community. I think so many Accessible Yoga students and teachers are people who just have had really challenging life experiences, and I think that makes us wiser and potentially stronger, and I think we have so much to share that can really benefit others, like you said. So I agree. I think it's a beautiful idea that you know, in giving we receive. What's that St. Francis prayer, right? Is in giving that we receive. I mean, I could go on and on about this. To be honest, it's maybe my favorite topic. I literally wrote a book about it. I'm not kidding, if they really want to know what I think, they might as well read that book, Yoga Revolution: Building a Practice of Courage and Compassion. It's a reflection on the yoga teachings. It's all about yoga philosophy. And the goal of that book was for this very reason, of trying to, like, help people recognize the power that's available through the yoga practices and how they're using it, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:28
I love that book too, because you share, like, all of these teachings are grounded in your personal stories, we get to know you a little more too. And I love that book.
Jivana Heyman 1:08:36
Thank you. I appreciate that. I love it too. And that one, it wasn't as popular. I mean, it's pretty popular, but not like my other books, and I hope my people read it. I poured my heart into it. I'll just say that it took a lot of courage, from me, to write it. So I hope it's useful anyway.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:09:00
Thank you, Jivana, I think we'll leave it there today.
Jivana Heyman 1:09:02
Okay, well, thank you. Thanks, Deanna. Thank you, Heather for a great conversation. I really appreciate it. And thanks, Eric for that great question. Thanks everyone for listening. We'll talk to you all later. Okay, bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:09:15
See you next time.
