Jivana Heyman 0:38
Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. And I'm joining you from Chumash land, which is known today as Santa Barbara, California. And I wanted to say thank you for being here. It means a lot to me. It really does. So thanks for listening. And I hope you're doing well. I'm doing pretty well. The world is challenging these days, but I'm trying to take care of myself and loving doing these podcast interviews and conversations, so I just again, I'm really grateful that you're here to listen, because it means I get to keep doing them. This conversation in particular was really fun for me because I got to talk to my friend David Lipsius, who I just have known and admired for many years. He's not maybe a name that you recognize in yoga, but I think he's someone you should know, because he's had such a big impact on yoga in the West, and especially because of his role as a leader in the yoga space. He was involved with Kripalu, running Kripalu during their transition from more of a guru centered ashram after there was abuse there, helping them deal with that, address the abuse, and become more of a retreat center, which was very successful. And then he became the CEO of Yoga Alliance for a few years, and he really helped do some really great things at Yoga Alliance while he was there. That's how I got to know him. He brought me in, and we'll talk about it a bit in the episode, but I got to be on some of the panels that he put together. They were doing a review of the 200 hour teacher training standards and also creating a new scope of practice and code of conduct for yoga teachers. And I got to be involved with a few of those projects.
Jivana Heyman 2:27
The one that I found really exciting was the Code of Conduct Document. It's really quite something, we put together, I think, a really powerful and beautiful document calling on yoga teachers to prioritize ethics in their teaching. And yet, I don't know if the yoga world or even the Yoga Alliance community, is really holding up to that standard that is in that document. It's quite profound, and everyone who's registered with Yoga Alliance is committing to that code of conduct, which is really about prioritizing ethics. And that's the most important thing to me, because when we're ethical, we automatically address all the issues that come up in yoga. We address the abuse, we address the lack of access, the inequity, the division that exists in the yoga, we address the ways that yoga has been misappropriated when we teach and practice and run our businesses in an ethical way. And so I don't think we can emphasize enough the importance of this code of conduct, or a code of conduct for yoga teachers. And I think this one's pretty good. I'll link to it in the show notes so you can read it. And I just I hope that the yoga community keeps going back to that conversation and reviews it and reflects on what is our code of conduct. And I would say individually, for me, and I think for all yoga teachers, it's something we also need to do personally, just to reflect on what is our personal code of conduct, what is our personal code of ethics that we practice all the time in the way that we teach and, like I say, the way we run our businesses, the way that we deal with our students and with other teachers. I think that would solve so many problems that exist in yoga today. Okay, anyway, I'll leave it there. I'd love for you to listen to this conversation with David. I'll let him share his history and the impact he's had on the yoga world, and he has some incredible advice also for yoga teachers towards the end of this conversation, I really hope you'll listen. It's just amazingly powerful and useful, I think. All right, I'll leave it there. Here's my conversation with David Lipsius.
Jivana Heyman 4:49
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Jivana Heyman 5:59
Okay, hi everyone. Hi, David, how are you? (Hi, Jivana.) Hi, thanks so much for doing this.
David Lipsius 6:06
It's an honor to be here. Thank you for the invite.
Jivana Heyman 6:09
I've been waiting to have you as a guest for a really long time, which is why I'm laughing, because, I mean, we're friends, I should say that up front that we talk quite a bit, actually, and I'm just so grateful to you for all your wisdom and support. And so I've been asking you to be on the podcast for a while, and you finally agreed. So I'm so happy that you're here. I just wonder if you could introduce yourself a little more, because I all have shared a little bit before we started, but I thought it'd be nice for you to get to share.
David Lipsius 6:39
Sure. Hi everyone. I'm David, and for those that don't know me, I've been a practitioner for about 30 years, maybe more than that, at this point, 35 for meditation, and I consider myself a perpetual student. That's really all I am. I've been on a journey of life like the rest of us, and I feel like my responsibility is to take these teachings and do my best and slog through the difficult learnings and come to a place where I can be a more kind and gentle and compassionate, understanding and open person, learn from my mistakes, own 'em, and ultimately be of service to the world. And that's just kind of my journey, and I'm fully committed to this path of Samkhya Yoga, and this is what I think about pretty much all the time.
Jivana Heyman 7:30
Yeah, yeah, me too. I appreciate that. Well, that's why I love talking to you. I thought it might be useful to kind of review a bit of your amazing career, like, I know there's a lot of career there, but at least the yoga piece, I just think there might be a lot of people who don't know you. I mean, maybe because you have had kind of an interesting role in yoga that I think is very unusual, which is basically leading major organizations. And because I know you well, I know the impact you've had, which is just huge, I would say, really huge. And I just, I'm so grateful for that. And I thought it might be helpful to kind of go back. Can we start with Kripalu? (Sure.) Is that okay? Can you explain what happened, just how you ended up there, and what you did at Kripalu?
David Lipsius 8:19
Sure, yeah. I think, you know, for a minute, I worked in the yoga industry in a very formal way. There's been lots of other times where I've worked more informally and behind the scenes, but there were a couple of jobs, including at Kripalu, where I was kind of right in the center of, you know, a significant player in the yoga industry. I came there by pure chance. I was a student. I went to Kripalu to study for a month long training. And while I was there, I noticed a lot about some things that were going on there that raised some eyebrows, shall we say. But one of the things I heard right before I left was that Kripalu had a long history of leadership turnover, and they were kind of always in search of people who were both organized in principle around yoga, but also had some hard skills, you know, let's call them business skills, just for want of a better term. And through that weird confluence of events, I ended up working there not too long after I was there as a student in a month long training. I was brought in as the number two person. I was pretty much running the business side of things, which was, you know, 75 or 85% of what was happening there, with a lot of great help and support and 400 staff members. So none of this was a solo act by any means. And then in a relatively short amount of time, there was a CEO turnover, and I'd been there for about a year. They had seen what I had brought to the organization, and the board kind of did a full search. They hired an outside firm, they did a search, a nationwide search, they interviewed candidates. They were desperately searching for the next leader. And then they kind of turned around at the end and said, we really don't have the right person. David, you're the right person. Would you be the CEO? And at that point, I was kind of in already, so I figured, all right, why don't I take this on for a little bit, and I'll be what I would term a turnaround CEO, and I'll take that responsibility for a few years and then hand it off to the next person after I've set things on the, you know, on a better track.
Jivana Heyman 10:31
And the scandals had happened before? I mean, that was, it was like...they were already transitioning away from, like, a guru-centered ashram, or did you make that change?
David Lipsius 10:43
Yeah, and I should say for a minute, we should probably do just a content warning, just to say, like, I'm not going to get into explicit details, but we're just going to talk, probably because Jivana and I have a lot of deep experience working with not only our own lineages, but a lot of other lineages, and working through scandals of different sorts, financial scandals or other types of scandals as well. And so just if that's not content you want to hear, just skip forward a couple of minutes. What I would say to that is the original guru of the ashram was long gone, but as with all of the gurus from the 60s and 70s, there was a robust system of other people around them. I call them enablers, or, you know, folks that participated actively in what was going on. And a lot of those people were still there, even a couple, you know, almost two decades later, when I first walked in the doors. And some of those old patterns were certainly there, and so the board and I looked each other in the eye, they knew who I was. I was a non practicing lawyer. I had a lot of experience working with things like harassment in the workplace and inappropriate behavior, inappropriate internships, inappropriate volunteer programs, things like that. I had a lot of practical experience in those arenas, and had been trained by some real experts. And so even two decades later, there were a lot of people and policies and procedures that were happening in that institution that, frankly, were violating the law and good ethics. And so a good part of the first couple of years was definitely me and a lot of experts, a lot of outside experts, a lot of outside people came in, and we did some really hard work to kind of give that organization a healthier future and to make sure that it could actually stand in integrity and say, like, the things that were going on all the way up through, you know, 2010, 2011, since the 1960s were no longer going to happen under that administration. And really all credit goes to the experts we brought in, and, frankly, to the board who had the courage to, you know, ask leadership, myself and a whole group of others who came in at that time to say, like, this stuff has to end, let's be an example for yoga. And a lot of the lessons we learned, then we're able to apply to lots of other organizations and lots of other lineages. And it was hard and unpleasant, and I can't say that I enjoyed that work at all, but I I know that we helped, especially a lot of women who were very brave to speak up about what was going on. And, you know, I think the organization's in a mostly better place. And I think that that's, you know, that's great.
Jivana Heyman 13:32
Yeah. I mean, I don't know that organization very well, but it seems to me, from the outside, that you really, I mean, it's what I love about you, your leadership style is you always give credit to other people. But I just want to say from where I sit, it seemed like you really turned it around and made it into, like a thriving, you know, retreat center, rather than a kind of guru-focused ashram, which is, I think, huge and also essential for practitioners to have a place to go that's safe and, like you say, ethical, that's run in an ethical way. So I appreciate what you did there, and then from there, you ended up going to Yoga Alliance. Is that right? Did you go directly to Yoga Alliance?
David Lipsius 14:16
Yeah, that's right, it was a few months. But, yes, yeah, it was funny. The board at Kripalu gave me, you know, offered me a contract extension, but I had been there for five years. We had done the work. The organization was thriving. It had a strategy that was going to work for the next decade. And in a lot of ways, you know, I brought in all these great leaders and felt like, okay, my hard turnaround work was done. It's time to hand the ball off, and they brought in another great leader, and she took it from there, and Kripalu went on its way. And I sort of stepped out after five years, happily, and then I was doing consulting for yoga and Buddhist organizations, because I had learned a lot, and I felt like there were other organizations that were struggling, and other ways that I could help. And Yoga Alliance was one of the organizations that came to me and said, hey, we think we saw what you did there, and we know that wasn't easy. And we're thinking of maybe making some changes. Would you mind doing, you know, a little consult and taking a look at this one little area? So I did a, I think it was a three month consultation with yoga Alliance, and then I delivered that work. And right after they said, like, hey, would you be our president and CEO and and again, there I was, like, I think we can do some good work if, you know, if we have the right team here. And so I signed on for that, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 15:36
And, I mean, I could...I mean, I love that. I'm so happy you're here for many reasons. I like talking to you. I love to share your story and the impact you've had on the yoga world, but also, selfishly, it does give me a chance to review some of the history I've had and that Accessible Yoga has had. And you know, we had, I think we had a hand in that, not in picking you, but in pushing for change at Yoga Alliance, at that point. The previous CEO had kind of just ignored our requests for focus on accessible yoga. But what had happened is that our, it was in 2016, if that's right, we had a conference here in Santa Barbara, an Accessible Yoga Conference, and one of the themes was frustration with Yoga Alliance at that point, that there was no awareness around accessibility, really around equity, or just really anything current. It just felt like there was kind of a very standard, I don't know what was going on exactly. So we had a letter writing campaign, we had a petition. We called board members that we knew. We created an advocacy group at our conference, just from the pure, like, frustration and energy of the people there. And I think we did encourage them to push for change and to let go of the previous person. And then I was so excited because they hired you. I didn't know you, but then you actually reached out to me, which was, like, it was like a miracle. You know, it really felt like, on the one hand, we've been saying, like, no one's listening to us, and then you called me! I don't know, it was just so unbelievable. I was just like, what's happening!
David Lipsius 17:13
Well, maybe that's an opportunity for me to turn this around for a second, (Uh oh!) because, you know, telling silly stories from 10 years ago, for me, is not that interesting. But there are some stories that matter. And I think, you know, for your listeners who are curious about, you know, the yoga industry, business side of yoga, these big institutions and nonprofits, like, it is helpful to understand how they move and how things change and all of that. And I would say that, you know, Kripalu offered me something that was really valuable, which is access to 1000s and 1000s of conversations with thought leaders and experts from all areas of yoga and Buddhism and New Age thought, etc. I spoke to 1000s of experts. I spoke to hundreds and hundreds of ashram residents from Kripalu and Yogaville and like, all over the, you know, all over and so I had five years using sort of my old journalistic skills of interviewing everyone and asking questions. And one of the things that became really apparent was that there were leaders out there that were showing a new model, a collaborative model, an uplifting model, a more diverse and inclusive and accessible model, to use the overused words, but they are meaningful and they matter. And you were certainly first and foremost amongst that group to say, like there is a different way of being here for these, let's call them corporate-like, entities that seem to be functioning on an earned income model and and that's okay, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, but there can be a more inclusive, more democratic, for want of a better term, more open way of leading. And I really heard that, and I kind of felt it and took it in, and that kind of helped at the at the Yoga Alliance moment.
David Lipsius 19:10
I do want to say there's always these timeline gaps. You know, who was the leader? Who's David referring to? Who's Jivana referring to? I want to say for the record that actually my predecessor at Yoga Alliance was doing a really good job with the orientation that the organization had at the time, and she did a lot, and she's often skipped over because there were leaders before that I think people had real problems with and then there was this quiet period where my predecessor actually did a great job. And I just want to call that out, because a lot of people who tell these stories, it's a misogynistic thing, but they kind of leave out the woman, to be explicit. And she, I want to say, brought me in as well as anything that anyone else did and really helped the organization see that it can change, it can grow. And she deserves a lot of credit for that. And I think we had a moment there, all of us in yoga leadership, everyone, you and I could list like, it wasn't me, it wasn't you, it was there was about 30 to 50 people who were sort of all coming together at the right time with the same orientation to say, like, these old ways don't work. It's time to come together and have the real conversations and see if we can pivot this whole thing in a gentle and responsible way. And there was a moment there where I think that was 100% possible and I think we did a lot of work towards that end. And then everyone else you know can judge whether we succeeded or not.
Jivana Heyman 20:49
Well, I just want to talk about some of the things you did, because it was pretty fun and exciting. Like you said, it was a special moment, I think, in the history of Yoga Alliance. It felt like substantial change occurred during those few years. And, I mean, it was definitely a group effort. But again, this is your leadership style. You were making those choices. And, I mean, obviously they made the choice to put you in charge, which is a great choice. But also then you were able to, kind of, I don't know, oversee that shift from, I feel like, like you said, it was a more democratic process. You created these, I don't know what you'd call them, like teams of people who were like experts to address particular areas of interest. And I got to be in two of those groups, and it was amazing just to be with a group of kind of like minded people, but who also were incredibly diverse from all over the world. And I met amazing people who have, you know, stayed in my life since then, and it just felt like such a brilliant concept to, like, reach out to the yoga community and say, okay, what do you all want to do? What are your suggestions? And like to kind of shift from, I don't know what, like an insulated way of thinking to kind of this very broad and open-minded process. It's just like, a different process that I loved. And I do think, like you mentioned, this process piece, I just want to refer back to my influences, which were AIDS activists, like literally, anything I was bringing into the accessible yoga world, at that point, I had learned from my activist mentors, who basically taught me about process, that there are different ways to run a meeting, different ways to lead as a group. There's different ways to engage with the community and organize the community. And actually, that's what Accessible Yoga was, I hope it was, my effort to bring that activist angle into the yoga world, and that model that I had been taught from AIDS activists previously. Anyway, I just want to reference them, because I think it's important that people know that any of those ideas, they didn't come from me. I just learned from brilliant people, many of whom who died, you know, many people who died of AIDS. But I just am so grateful for that influence, you know, and I just feel like those grassroots efforts are still happening in the world, and so necessary, so powerful. If we listen to those voices, it's just incredible. Anyway.
David Lipsius 23:26
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I love when you, I really do, it's one of the pleasures of being your friend, is when you refer back to the influences in your life and what shape the way you think, because this beautiful thing that is the Accessible Yoga movement, which you have had a major part in. And yes, there are others who have, you know, came before you and continue to influence, but you are a major voice in that movement. And it all stems from this deeply compassionate and caring place and from seeing suffering up close of a community and learning what works and what doesn't work. For instance, you know, there's always this advocacy versus activism challenge which exists in yoga world too. Like, is shouting down, you know, people who disagree with you the right way to get your way in a yoga environment, or is bringing people in and being a strong advocate for your beliefs, but being open to differing opinions? Like, that's a question that we all have to ask ourselves. And more power to activists, more power to you know, advocates, whatever is your orientation, I salute, but I'm in the advocate camp, and that comes from my professional upbringing. I worked in television, and I worked with journalists, and those two things influenced me. One, you know, to put on a television production, it's 30, 50, 100 people, like the director is in charge of the set, but there are 50 other people there, and everyone has to be on point, doing their job, in their specialty for that thing that doesn't exist, it only exists in one person's mind or in 50 people's minds. And then they all come together, and they all play their important parts, and then this magic thing called television happens.
David Lipsius 25:17
And the other thing I learned was from journalists. I worked with the best journalists in the world at the height of, you know, when news mattered. And you know you don't rely on a single source, and you don't just listen to one person's opinion, and you take in as much information, and you deeply research everything available to you, and you talk to every expert before you decide what is actually true news worthy of communicating to other people. And those are the influences that I brought, let's say, to yoga Alliance. There were definitely people inside Yoga Alliance and outside Yoga Alliance who thought they knew every answer. I know what the standards are. You can still hear them talking now on podcasts and elsewhere. I know what the standard should have been. This is what it was. They didn't do this. They didn't do that. There were lots of those folks inside and outside the organization. But my approach was simple. It was like, no, I am just sitting in this lovely position. You're paying me to sit here to listen to the best minds of our age, and I have money to go out and try to get as many of the best minds as possible who will actually want to be part of this. And some people didn't want to be part of it, and then it was my job to, like, have those experts weigh in form, these subcommittees make recommendations, and then for me and all those other people with strong opinions, to get out of the way and not impose our singular individual, you know, beliefs onto the whole process. And what emerged, there were a lot of great things that emerged, it's incomplete work, and I left far too soon, and I own all of that, but there was a lot of brilliant work.
David Lipsius 26:53
And I do want to mention all the other people who worked hard. There were so many people came into Yoga Alliance, all these yoga teachers, all these administrative folks, all these vice presidents, like the board, our board chair, Kerry. Like, there was this confluence of events at a certain moment in time that said, like, we're going to get as many people as possible in this tent, and anyone who's going to talk to us, we're going to talk to them, and we're going to weigh all the best ideas, and we're going to try to change these standards. And a few great things came out of that. For the first time in yoga history, we had a scope of practice that was defined and clear. We had a code of ethics that applied to everyone who wanted to be a member. And we had a investigative unit, which no longer exists, but we had an investigative unit that was holding people accountable around the world when they were breaking that code of ethics. It's the only time in history that there was any real accountability in yoga spaces. And, you know, we had the policies against misconduct, and that was huge and those policies still live on today. And while people have opinions about Yoga Alliance, I'm really proud of the work we all did together, and so grateful to people like yourself and everyone who came on board who said, like, David, we don't really like you guys, we don't trust you guys, but we're gonna, like, show up, we're gonna try to do this. And I just have so much gratitude to everyone who signed on in those two years to kind of turn this giant ship a few degrees and try to move it in a different direction. It was pretty magical. It was pretty special.
Jivana Heyman 28:30
Yeah, one of the groups I got to work on was the Code of Conduct, and that was really kind of transformative for me, personally, just to be able to reflect on that piece. And I still think about it today. I think about that document. I mean, not everything I wanted was included, but it ended up being so much bigger than I could have imagined and more comprehensive. And I think it's really, it's such a beautiful, I don't know what it is, it's like this document that exists still in the world that is just really profound to me, and really touches on all these different aspects that are still a challenge in the yoga world today, regarding, you know, harassment and abuse, the lack of accessibility and diversity, all the things we talk about in Accessible Yoga. I think it all got addressed just in that Code of Conduct, and I do still reference it. And I wish it was still being held up in the way that I think you did. I mean, we don't need to go there, but I just feel, like you mentioned, it felt to me that you were trying to bring back that piece, what I felt like, the missing piece of ethics and yoga. And I always say, regarding Accessible Yoga, that we actually don't need to worry about accessible yoga, because if we just practiced ethics, even just yamas, and I say just, but if we practice the yamas, all these issues would go away. There would be no issues here. It would be like, yoga would be accessible. It would be safe. People would be welcome. So, I just think, to me, it's like the touchstone of yoga. And I just appreciated that you recognized that and I felt that in your focus on that part of the process and the way it was implemented when you were there.
Jivana Heyman 30:16
And I guess I just want to transition to to you, because and your practice, because knowing you, I'll just say that I think the reason that you were able to do all of those things is because I think you were unusual, and you had such a strong practice and a dedication to practice. And not to put anyone else down, but I don't think that's always the case in people that are running big yoga businesses or big yoga nonprofits. I don't know, they might have an interest in yoga. They might even be like a yoga teacher, but I haven't met almost anyone else in that kind of a role who has the kind of dedication you have to practice, just to your personal practice. I don't know if there's words to express that, but like, it's so meaningful, and it makes such a huge difference when someone in a leadership position actually is dedicated to that thing that they're doing. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're actually so 100% dedicated to yoga, and it just comes through so much and the way you do it, and also in the results that comes from, and I think because of that personal dedication. So I guess I don't know if that, if you can talk about a little bit, but I'm just curious about how you feel about that and about your personal practice. Do you know what I mean? Is that fair?
David Lipsius 31:36
Yeah, it's all fair. The first thing I want to say is thank you. That's exceptionally generous and kind, and I feel humble and a little sheepish about even trying to respond. I think you've put on me something that I aspire to, but I'm not sure I always make it there. And I think it's also a learning process. I think, you know, the way I showed up in yoga spaces ten years ago is definitely different than the way I would show up today after ten more years of practice. So I want to also honor that, that, you know, I certainly am constantly learning. What I can say for sure about my approach is that I went all in on my own spiritual, I would say almost religious practice, you know. And I think that that is not as easy in the West for many, for lots of good reasons. And there's no shame in that, like we all, most of us, grew up in Judeo Christian households, and have all sorts of different cultural and ethnic differences. We have historical differences, genetic differences, etc, that are all influencing sort of where we can go with our yoga exploration. And I honor all that, like, it's totally cool to just be dipping a toe, like that's, you dip the toe in a muddy puddle, you know, way up high on the mountain, and eventually, like, you might make it to the ocean of bliss. Like, maybe it is just a tiny, little muddy puddle, and you pull your toe right out and, you know, and wait ten years before coming back to yoga. Like, that's still yoga, and that's okay. But for me, I did a lot of, you know, dark night of the souls, kind of exploration, like, what am I? What do I believe? Am I Buddhist? Am I, you know, what do I believe here? And my answer has consistently since, you know, the very beginning, it always comes back to Samkhya Yoga is my religion, it's my spiritual practice. It's my day to day desire to aspire to be in that existence and that understanding. And therefore, whenever I lose direction, which happens all the time, and happened all the time, when I was in yoga leadership roles, like, it was always to return back to that and say, like, what am I doing here? What is the purpose of all this? And where am I getting in the way of that universal truth that I believe in? And so it's not hard to do once that's reconciled, but the reconciling for me has absolutely been a 30 year process of, I'm all in. What am I out? What about, what about Vajrayana? What about, you know, tummo like, there's always these side tracks that, you know, you go explore for a year or two or 12, but I've always come back and said, like, no, I know what I believe in and this has to be my orientation in life. And I either am or am not, you know, a reincarnated being who is playing out karmas and dealing with ahamkara and working through the scars of this existence in this meat body and like, what the heck am I trying to accomplish in any job that I'm doing because, does it serve that higher ideal of returning to that deeper wisdom, and helping others to cross that bridge from the muddy puddle to a deeper trickle stream, to the river, to the ocean, you know.
Jivana Heyman 35:11
And can I ask, you know, in all these episodes, I've been asking people to reflect on one particular story, or more than one is fine, but just on some something that's in particular, a moment or experience or teaching, even, that is very present for you today. I just wonder if there's something you
David Lipsius 35:28
I'll give you the one that always comes to mind first, because it is kind of a bit of an internal mantra for me. But I want to take it just the sidebar for a second and say like, you and I just talk about this, and I'm just letting people into this conversation, is like the Bhagavad Gita is definitely the, you know, the guiding light in my life, and sort of the daily go to when I am lost or unsure or in ego or feeling hurt or emotional or unclear. But then there's the Hatha Yoga side. And there is the well, how do we get there? How do we get to that other place that isn't just Bhakti, it isn't just Jnana, and that's the Hatha Yoga practice, which is a big part of what I do. And so the Gorakha Shtakam, verse two, "Yoga, this teaching is a ladder to liberation. It's an escape from death." And those two phrases are what ping around in my heart and in my head constantly. And can kind of dive into that, but I would maybe just offer that. You know, for me, we all have different, what does a ladder mean? Right? Like, that's a weird that's a weird thing in an eight limb path, or a six limb path, or, you know, is it a wheel? Is it a circle? Is it pick your own adventure? What is it? Well, you know, ladders take us to places that are higher than where we are at the moment. They have levels, stages to move through, steps that you have to climb, and you can't get to the next one unless you are solidly on the one below. They're dangerous. And I think this is not talked about in yoga, but like yoga, can be extremely dangerous to the path. And I don't mean asana injuries. I mean the destabilization that comes into one's life when one is on this path in a real way like it, it's dangerous, there's fear, there's injuries and harm that can come. And then at the top there's a new view, there's a new understanding of the entirety of existence, a new perspective. And really, like once you see that view, even if you climb down, or even if you fall down off the roof and hurt, it takes you ten years to get back to that same spot, like you're never the same once you see that view. And so I really love that ladder to liberation verse and then the death part as a whole. That's a whole other podcast.
Jivana Heyman 37:58
Yeah. Well, the ladder part I like too, because, I mean, I also think a lot about the Yoga Sutras. And the one of the things about the Sutras that I love, that people never, almost never, talk about, is the emphasis on viveka, or, you know, having a clear perspective and clarity around spirit, that we're both spirit and creation, right, that we have these two sides. And I love that just before Patanjali introduces the eight limbs of yoga, he says, you know, the reason you practice these eight limbs is to gain viveka-khyati, you know, to have this vision, the perspective. And it seems like the same thing you're saying, like the ladder, of being at the top of the ladder, you have a clear or different perspective, right? And it seems like that's what so much of yoga is trying to do for us, is to shift our vision. I was even writing today about pratipaksha bhavana, and about, you know, a teaching that I think we struggle with because it feels like spiritual bypassing, to just replace our thoughts. But I was thinking that maybe it's really just this, it's about changing perspective. It's just like, look at it a different way. You know, that's what I think we're being asked to do in yoga, is to shift, sometimes, it says shift identity, but even just shift perspective, because what is identity anyway, but see yourself in a different way, and it's just it. That's what yoga has done for me, too. So no wonder we get along.
David Lipsius 39:33
Can I just raise a, like, a happy flag there and say, like, this is one of the things that pains me about, like the modern yoga industry, as in my limited view of it is there's not so much time just talking with folks in this way. And like I just got a free, amazing yoga teaching from a teacher I so admire. And every time I talk to you, I get this sort of free, I'll call it free, maybe it's not free to you, but I get this free teaching from a wisdom holder that sustains and supports me and allows me to move forward. And now I've got something to really mull over and integrate and find in my heart tomorrow morning, you know, in practice, and later tonight on a walk in the woods. And I wish there were more of that, because there's certainly a lot of like, courses on how to do social media better and how to build your business and grow this and do that. There's a lot of courses on, like, how to be a better teacher. And there's not a lot of time spent in some places, in just that quiet moment that used to happen around the fire, you know, and offering to the fire the seeds, and having conversation about a sutra, and just being with each other. And I feel so blessed. And I just wanted to say thank you to you as a teacher, because you've been a great teacher of mine over these last years.
Jivana Heyman 41:00
Thanks, David. That also reminds me of the word Upanishad, you know, meaning to sit near the teacher. I mean, it's so true that it's lacking, but actually, that's why I love the podcast. I have to say, I've been thinking about these conversations a lot, and I feel like it offers a special time to have deeper conversations off of social media, you know, that are both private and public at the same time. And so I think it's really interesting, just like writing, you know, like writing, for me, feels a similar way, but this is more public in a weird way. But I want to go back to one thing you said about what's lacking in yoga, and I wonder if you have advice for yoga teachers? I mean, we should probably end soon, but I just want to give something to the listeners, from you. Like, you have so much experience. I mean, I always go to you when I have questions, and I just, I don't know if it's too big a question to ask, but do you have ideas? I mean, what can yoga teachers do right now? Especially, you know, Accessible Yoga teachers, I find they're very service oriented and really wanting to, you know, make an impact in the world. I just, I don't know if you have thoughts for them?
David Lipsius 42:13
It's such a big question, and I definitely don't feel qualified. But I do have an answer based on, like, my whole experience, my subjective experience, of all the places I've worked and all the things I've seen, and how marketing works and how social media works, and how big companies work, and how nonprofits work and how startups work, etc, etc. And here's what I would say to any yoga teacher today. One, don't give up hope, things aren't what they appear. And two, here's why, all of the old rules, limitations, all the belief systems, all those crazy, unfair, somewhat silly, lineage, retreat center, magazine, all of those rules are worthless junk on the scrap heap of history. There's a new world that's available to all of us right now, which is you can go out and find your people, find your audience through any method that feels resonant with you, whether that's knocking on the door of a nursing center, going on social media, whatever calls to you, you have that available to you. And any belief that someone is stopping you or preventing you from reaching for your dharma, for fulfilling your karmas in this lifetime right now, is actually someone holding you down from the past. It's a limiting belief set by people who were in power before, who wanted to control the money and the narrative and their space on top and all that, thankfully is gone. They're still doing it. They're still doing it. They're still hanging on. They're still pretending that it matters, whether you climb up that ladder and get a spot at the retreat center or get an article in the magazine, online or whatever, they're still out there pretending that that matters. But the real world, what's happening is the teachers who are just owning, I'm a teacher, there are people that would benefit from this, and it's my job to go find them. And if you do that, you're going to be okay.
Jivana Heyman 44:25
Oh, my God, I love that. I couldn't agree with that more. I remember having that feeling, that frustration, you know, early on, like I couldn't. It's like, yeah, like a glass ceiling or something. I don't know, I felt like they couldn't get through. I think a lot of marginalized folks feel that way, and I just figured I'd just do it myself.
David Lipsius 44:42
Asking permission. It's so funny, like, we're practicing a spiritual path that is literally saying to us, you need no one's permission to be whole. You're already there. And yet we spend most of our lives waiting, hoping someone will see us. Can I be part of this institution that doesn't want me? Can I squeak my way in? Can I fight my way in? Can I put someone else down to rise myself up? There's all these confused dynamics of ignorance and attachment and ego and anger that get in the way of us seeing that like, actually, what's stopping us? You're a teacher. You have something to offer. There's someone in your neighborhood that would benefit from it, who's stopping you from teaching? Only us, only us. And that's, you know, maybe that's another thing to just say, which is, I think the industry made everyone try to believe, or wanted everyone to believe that, unless you have massive following and impact, and unless you're, you know, one of the three named yoga teachers at any given time that you didn't matter. And I would say all along, we were deluded. We were looking at those cover models and the retreat center catalogs and all of that, and thinking that that somehow made someone a good yoga teacher, or that they were evolved and authentic and ethical and all those things like that, was always a marketing gambit. It was a front. And so serving in your community is better. It's just more connected. It's more real, anyway. And, and if you aspire to be the next YouTube star, do it! Go for it! That's awesome. I'm all for it!
Jivana Heyman 46:35
I would just say that community could be anywhere. The community could be your neighborhood. I'd also be on YouTube, like you said, I mean, but I totally agree. I love that. I think that's amazing, and it's such a great message. I hope the listeners hear you, you know, and put themselves out there and just do the thing that they want to do. Like, if it's in your heart, you know, you just do it. It's beautiful.
David Lipsius 47:00
Well, you've shown us the way. I mean, there really are exemplars out there who did it a different way from everything I'm describing. And if it sounds cynical, I hope everyone can understand that actually, no, I think you just we all need to just look at things calmly and clearly, not place blame. Things are the way they are for reasons. Those reasons are people. You look at the decisions that they made, what drove those decisions, who made the decisions? And then it becomes pretty clear. It's all to say that, I think yoga gives us the freedom to express in any way we want, in any form we want, to any audience we want, and you don't need anyone's permission, let alone mine, to go out there and be the best yoga teacher you can be in and to serve a community. So, you know, let's get rid of the old and create a new dynamic for yoga teachers, so that there's real livelihood and a real feeling that we've gotten back to the spiritual teachers in our communities that actually matter and that have good, positive impact on people's lives.
Jivana Heyman 48:04
Yes, thanks. David, that's amazing. Let's just end there, maybe. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time and wisdom and everything and talking to me, like usual. I always appreciate it so much.
David Lipsius 48:18
Thanks for having me. Thanks to the listeners, for listening to an old man talk.
Jivana Heyman 48:22
You're not as old as me. All right. Thanks, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 48:34
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Jivana Heyman 49:40
Welcome back, everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:43
Hello, Jivana, how are you?
Jivana Heyman 49:45
I'm good. How about you? (I am also good.) That's good. Did you like that episode with David?
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:51
Yes, I just got finished listening. It was an incredible episode. I also liked that it was like a piece of living history, in the yoga world, and, like, centered on repair and how repair can happen in some of these bigger institutions. I thought that was, you know, you don't always hear the behind the scenes and what happened. And sometimes it feels like, well, was repair complete? I don't know, but it's always a process. And so this was a really interesting look behind the curtain. (Yeah.) Love David.
Jivana Heyman 50:23
Yeah, me too. I love him and I love that perspective. I just think more people should know about the impact he's had on yoga. And it's funny because, I don't think he's very well known, because usually it's like big, famous yoga teachers get known in the yoga spaces, but he's had such a major impact, I really wanted to share that. So, yeah, a lot of our conversation centered around his history, just because I wanted people to know, like, you know, the impact he had at Kripalu and also at Yoga Alliance. And, yeah, like, wow! Just amazing. Addressing abuse in yoga, I think that's been his main focus and I really appreciate that. I think it's just the most important thing that could be done. You know, to try to elevate ethics in yoga spaces is just incredible, and has just made me a fan of his for a long, long time, basically.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:15
I know David, you probably don't know this, but whenever Jivana talks to you, and then I talk to him after he's just very excited.
Jivana Heyman 51:21
Yeah, I know I'm always excited after I talk to him. Well, he always just gives me a lot of energy, and he's so enthusiastic, and, like, so supportive of me, personally. Like, it's really nice. I mean, we were friends, and so we do chat, and, you know, he gives me kind of like, ideas and support, and I don't know, just it's nice to have people like that, you know, myself. So I just, I really appreciate David, yeah, not just for all that work I mentioned that he did in yoga, but also just for the support he offers me, and recently for my triathlon. Because he's a triathlete. I don't think we spoke about that in the episode, but he's like, an unbelievable triathlete. He's done like, six Iron Man triathlons, which is, you know, like, I can't even describe what an Iron Man triathlon. I can look it up if you want, but it's just such incredibly long distances, and you do them back to back, just in the same human. He's done six of them! Anyway. So, yeah, he's, he was really supportive. He gave me a lot of great advice as I got ready for my triathlon. And, you know, that was really helpful. And I love what he said towards the end of the episode. His message for yoga teachers, you know, when I asked him about what, you know, what advice does he have for Accessible Yoga teachers? I thought that was really profound, you know, didn't you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:45
Truly. And just to recap. At least, what I really responded to and I wrote down is that, like, kind of the old ways of being are over. Those institutions that may, like, have directed things, that may have, you know, uplifted the few and it felt impossible to sort of like, you know, as a yoga teacher, just to feel like you could ever ascend, I'm quoting, air quoting right now, to that level, like that. Those institutions we're seeing in yoga and also outside of yoga, are sort of, like, have crumbled. This is the time to find your people, as he said, and we have the tools to kind of do that right now. And he specifically said, "You need no one's permission to be whole." And that really resonated.
Jivana Heyman 53:28
"You need no one's permission to be whole." I mean, that's really, like, the message of yoga too, is that you are already whole, but that idea of not needing someone's permission, or anyone's permission, is really great. I love that message. I mean, I can relate to that at such a deep level. I remember, I don't know, earlier in my career, maybe about 15 years ago, I had just moved down here to Southern California, from the Bay Area, the San Francisco Bay Area. And I just felt really lost and confused, and I was definitely looking for that. I was looking for that permission. I was looking for someone else to accept me and to lift me up and all that. And then it just, I don't know something happened. I just decided, I think it was from my activist days, that I just need to do it myself. Just put myself out there and lift up others. And that's really how Accessible Yoga got started in a bigger way. I mean, we already had trainings earlier before that, but it was the Accessible Yoga Conferences were just like, I don't need someone else's permission. In fact, I could actually give that to other people and give them permission. That's really what my mission has been. But I really love David saying that, and I hope people hear that. Also, I heard him say something about how serving in your community is the most important thing you can do. And I just love that message, too. I think a lot of people, a lot of yoga teachers, we think there's some like, I don't know, like, goal. Like, to be in Yoga Journal or to be on some platform somewhere, but really, I think these days the best work, and maybe always, but the best work these days seems to be to support and cultivate and care for your community. And I just, I know so many people, so many of our listeners and so many people in the Accessible Yoga community are doing that, and I love that so much.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:23
Yeah, and creating the space you've always wanted, because chances are there are plenty of other folks who also need that space that you're being called to create.
Jivana Heyman 55:33
Exactly, yes. So yeah, thank you, David.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:37
Thank you, David. That was a great conversation. Well, we have a question today from a long time podcast listener, and it's in response to our last podcast with Dr. Steffany Moonaz. So I will read it, and this is from Chitra. "Before I proceed, I'd like to say that I wish I had written and commented all the times that the Accessible Yoga Podcast's message rang true for me." And then Chitra talks about the last episode. "I think my main gripe with equating yoga and integrative practices with Western medicine is that the two disciplines are not equal, but it's only in recent years that we have seen so much interest and research into ancient practices. So to say both are equal is disingenuous. For me, it has the same energy as all lives matter versus Black Lives Matter, and for all the same reasons to prove itself, integrative medicine and its practitioners have to work and provide evidence in a setup approved by modern science. On the other hand, Western science stands as gold standard and has to be disproved. It's not an even playing field. I want to emphasize here that people who bridge the gap between integrative and modern sciences are very much needed and are doing good work. What I disagree with is the messaging that calls the two equal. Thank you for the space to express myself." What do you think?
Jivana Heyman 57:02
Yeah, I mean, I agree! I feel bad that I gave that impression. I don't think that Steffany or I meant to say that. I think what I was saying, and what I say a lot when I'm training yoga teachers, is that when we share about, like, when we're teaching and we're giving like, the benefit of a practice, so say, you say like, oh, this is shoulder stand. Let's practice shoulder stand, sarvangasana, it helps to massage the thyroid gland. Where are you getting that information? I'm always encouraging people to cite their sources. And what I say all the time is, it's equally valid wherever that source is. And when I say that, I'm not saying that the actual sources are equal. What I'm saying is it's equally valid, in my mind, to cite traditional yoga wisdom, versus citing some Western study that you read. So I'm just saying it's equally valid in my mind to share either one when you're teaching. And I think that might be what I said in the episode, because I say it all the time. I also think it's equally valid to share a different source to say, oh, it's my personal experience. I find that dot, dot, dot happens from this practice. Or, you know, my teacher says, dot, dot, dot. But I think the point I'm always trying to make is we need to cite our sources and we don't usually do that. Oftentimes, when we're teaching, we'll say something just this, you know, thing, yoga does this, this practice does this. And I always want to say, cite your source. I don't care what that source is, just tell me what it is. So I don't think I would ever equate Western science and, you know, a couple 100 year old tradition and 1000s of years of a yoga tradition. I don't think I'd equate them, because first of all, why bother? Why would I equate them? All I mean, is they, for me, they both exist like. They both have very different values and benefits. I mean, I'm a student of yoga, so for me, like, yoga is where it's at, and that's the tradition I go for. But I also would go to the doctor if I have a problem. So, I mean, I do value both, but I would never imply that they're equal. And so, yeah, so I apologize if that was the message that came across, and I'm just wondering if it was really more about this other thing that I often share about, that it's equally valuable to share any source that you're using, as long as you cite your sources as a teacher. What do you think? You probably don't remember the whole episode? Or do you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:47
Yeah, no, I think Chitra has a great point in that, you know, Western science, in our culture, here, in where we are, in the US, it stands as gold standard, right? And it is true, I think that integrative systems, you know, have to always be proven by this other. So I understand that the hierarchy does exist here. (Yeah.) That's like, without question. (Right.) And so it's like, it's nuanced in a way, because...
Jivana Heyman 1:00:17
But it's kind of like apples and oranges, like, I don't think we can even really equate them, and that's why I like talking to Steffany, and why I always like talking to Steffany, because it's intriguing to me, the ways that Western science is attempting to understand this very different tradition that's based on a whole different way of perceiving reality. Seems almost impossible or laughable. Sometimes I try to, you know, talk about yoga research, just because it's interesting, but to me, I don't base my practice or teaching on any of that. Like, that's not the foundation of what I do, or the value that I hold in yoga is not based on Western research, but I think it's useful because I think it brings more people in, and I think it helps us to explore maybe the synergies that exist between the traditions which I think are there. Yeah, so, but it is such an important question. I wish I'd asked Steffany about that more.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:21
I'm glad, Chitra, that you sent this question through. It's a great one.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:23
Yeah, thanks, Chitra. I appreciate that, and I love getting questions. And I hope anyone listening, if you have comments or questions, you will leave us a message. We have links for written messages or for voicemails, and I do love voicemails.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:39
It's awesome to hear the voices of our listeners. (Yes, I love that!) Leave a comment, leave a question. We'd love to hear from you.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:47
Yes. All right. Well, thanks, Deanna, maybe we should leave it there for today.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:53
Sounds good. Thank you, Jivana, for another great episode.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:57
Yeah. Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening, and thanks again to David. I really appreciate all his insight. All right, bye, everyone.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:03
Bye, everyone.
