Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, Santa Barbara, California, and I'm so glad that you're here. Thanks for joining me. I have a really great conversation today, to share with you, with Zabie Yamasaki. I love talking to her. It was just, I don't know, mesmerizing. I learned so much. I had so many questions, you'll hear, I kind of bombard her with questions, and we cover a lot very quickly in a short period of time. Zabie is an amazing person, amazing teacher. She's the founder of Transcending Sexual Trauma Through Yoga, which is an organization focused on empowering survivors to heal through the practice of yoga. And I just love that mission. I feel like this is a topic we don't talk about enough, which is why I got excited to talk to her, and I had so many thoughts and questions for her. She also has an exciting new book coming out, which I was really interested in. So I'm looking forward to sharing this episode with you. Let me know if you have any comments or questions. I'd love to hear from you, please. It would be great if you want to leave a message or a voicemail and be sure to stay after the interview with Zabie for my conversation with Deanna, we talk more and more about boundaries and how to have boundaries as a yoga teacher. All right, so here's my conversation with Zabie.
Jivana Heyman 2:09
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Jivana Heyman 3:15
Okay. Hi, Zabie, thanks for being here.
Zabie Yamasaki 3:19
Hi, Jivana, thank you so much for having me. It's always such an honor to be with you.
Jivana Heyman 3:25
Thanks so much. How are you doing?
Zabie Yamasaki 3:29
Such a big question these days!
Jivana Heyman 3:32
Yes, that is a big question.
Zabie Yamasaki 3:34
My daughter just turned five months. So...
Jivana Heyman 3:37
Amazing. Wow, congratulations. That's young. That's a lot.
Zabie Yamasaki 3:42
Yeah, you know, I'm still freshly postpartum, and my son is seven, and, you know, it's summer, and I just finished my third book. So it is a lot, you know!
Jivana Heyman 4:01
I'm so excited, I'm excited to read it. What's the name of the third one?
Zabie Yamasaki 4:06
It's called, Protect Your Energy: A Gentle Guide to Nurture Your Nervous System, Cultivate Rest, and Honor Your Needs.
Jivana Heyman 4:15
That's so exciting. Protect your energy, I love that. I want to talk more about that, but maybe you could kind of introduce yourself a little bit more, because I did introduce you before we started, but I just thought I'd give you a chance to share.
Zabie Yamasaki 4:25
Well, hi, folks. Thank you so much for being with us today. My name is Zabie Yamasaki, and my pronouns are she and her. I am the founder of an organization called Transcending Sexual Trauma Through Yoga, which is an organization with the mission of empowering survivors to heal through the practice of trauma-informed yoga. I support about 50 different college campuses and trauma agencies and helping them integrate trauma-informed yoga into the scope of their services to be more holistic in nature. I lead trauma-informed yoga certification trainings, both in person and online, that are open to all healing professionals who are passionate about working with this modality and integrating it into their work. And my first book, Trauma-Informed Yoga for Survivors: Practices for Healing and Teaching with Compassion is kind of really the catalyst and really the culmination, actually, of a decade plus of this work, and just really honored to share more about it with you all today and to celebrate you, Jivana, for 30 years of teaching! This is incredible!
Jivana Heyman 5:49
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for that. You're so eloquent. I mean, you just shared that so beautifully. I love your work. And I was curious about, can I ask about the college campus connection, because that's always so interesting to me, how you found that? I don't know if you could talk about that a little bit.
Zabie Yamasaki 6:04
Yes, absolutely. So my master's is actually in higher education administration and student affairs, and you know, initially, when all of my professional roles at universities early in my career have always been working within the anti-sexual violence movement, so giving presentations on sexual assault, supporting survivors. And during my time working at UC Irvine, I simultaneously was going through a yoga teacher training, and so I started to kind of make this connection, you know, as I was giving presentations on the impact of trauma on the brain and the body, and going through this yoga teacher training and learning all about the nervous system, nervous system physiology, the impact of trauma on the nervous system. I started to make this connection that we just can't leave the body out of the equation when we're talking about the healing process for survivors. And I started to put together this eight-week Trauma-Informed Yoga as Healing Curriculum that was a thread of different themes around safety and boundaries, assertiveness, inner strength. And before I knew it, you know, more referrals from universities started coming in because I think so many university counseling centers, as well as sexual violence prevention centers, recognize that they need more than the one time advocacy appointment, or if a survivor isn't comfortable seeking talk therapy or it doesn't feel like an accessible option to them. And they started to get really curious about this trauma-informed yoga modality and how it could complement the existing services that they have. And what I have found Jivana, that's been so incredible, is that so often trauma-informed yoga serves as an entry point for survivors to then get connected to additional resources in their recovery, because when we start with that safety and stability of the nervous system that can really create a pathway for expression in therapy and open up so many other options for resources that maybe didn't initially feel accessible. And so, you know, several years ago, Janet Napolitano, who was president of the UC system at the time, she gave 10 minutes on her task force meeting to end sexual violence across the University of California to explain why trauma-informed yoga should be implemented, the healing modality, at every UC. I'm like, okay, no pressure! And as you know, being brief is not my strong suit. (Me either!) And that led to, the meeting went well, and it led to the implementation of the program across California and now, you know, really, across the world. It's so much bigger than me now, it's amazing.
Jivana Heyman 9:37
That is amazing. So you're basically training people who go and implement it then, who like lead these programs on college campuses? Is that right?
Zabie Yamasaki 9:46
Yes, yes. So, you know, sometimes a university will want all of their staff to be trained in this trauma-informed yoga certification. Other times they want me to refer a teacher who's already trained in our eight-week curriculum. You know, we really customize to the campus accordingly. But yes, it's oftentimes the trainer of giving the university all of the tools they need to implement the program and really have it be an integrative model, right? Because, as you know, it's not just a one and done workshop. It's really changing the way that our world looks at healing trauma and wanting services to be more holistic in nature, to meet the diverse needs of survival.
Jivana Heyman 10:36
Yeah. I mean, this might be too detailed, really, but I'm just curious, just in terms of, like, managing all that. Do you have ongoing relationships then, with those campuses, like, do you continue to work with them? Or, I mean, that seems like a lot.
Zabie Yamasaki 10:51
It is, it is. Some campuses were more involved with ongoing consultation, but other campuses, you know, it's maybe just three to six months of an initial implementation of, really working very closely, ongoing consultation for me, we scheduled the trainings. You know, sometimes they'll send their staff to an in-person training I'm already facilitating.
Jivana Heyman 11:20
I find that interesting, like, how we can scale these programs, I always find that intriguing. So thanks for sharing that. I'm curious also, are you doing any, like, research around it too? Is that, I mean, it seems like you have established something really important in terms of, you said, is it eight-week curriculum that you've created? Has it been researched at all? Is that something you're doing?
Zabie Yamasaki 11:48
Yeah, actually, in my first book, we published the research. We were able to work with a researcher from the University of Nebraska, and she helped create the assessment for the program that was happening at, I think at the time, we were coordinating it across five of the UC campuses. And so we wanted to have some semblance of, you know, that there was consistency across each of the campuses. And so survivors did participate in that research, and it was just incredible to have the publish outcomes of the efficacy of trauma-informed yoga, and really seeing it as an evidence based healing modality.
Jivana Heyman 12:35
So awesome. And it's interesting because this it's been a theme, well it's been a few themes, actually, in the last episode of the podcast, Uma Cocchi talked about her research on yoga therapy for people with digestive disorders, and that was interesting. And also, we talked a bit about how it's hard, there isn't, like, a standardized yoga to apply for stuff. Like, you know, each yoga program is kind of unique, but I think that's probably a big part of what you're doing is creating that unique program. Maybe you could talk about what is different about what you're doing. And the other theme I just want to mention is Shawn Moore, who was on a few episodes back, who also works in higher education. I don't know if you got to listen to that episode, but it's great to hear that connection too, like, how that has informed his teaching. I think is really interesting. But I guess I'm curious, like, can you talk a bit about what is special about that? I mean, I get trauma-informed, that piece, but are there other particular elements about your eight-week program?
Zabie Yamasaki 13:35
You know, I think it's very survivor centered. This may sound kind of out there, but there's an ethereal, sort of magical element about the way that the themes come together and build upon one another, both sort of in the yogic philosophy and the eight limbs, as well as in the physical asana practice. Because, you know, we start out with orienting, working towards safety, talking a little bit about embodied boundaries, and how the mind, body and spirit inform the way that we can assert those boundaries, talking about inner strength. And we also have other holistic healing practitioners to complement the curriculum. So there's an art practitioner that comes in, and she creates these custom canvas covers for the yoga mats where survivors during week six, they can paint on their canvas, what does inner strength look like to them. (Wow.) And it's so beautiful, if they feel comfortable sharing what they create for those canvases. And then many of them take those into therapy. And kind of talk through that in, you know, a therapeutic setting. And we close with a healing drum circle, where, instead of, you know, Jivana, have you ever been on a retreat or just finished an incredible training and then someone asks you, what was this experience like for you? And sometimes it's so hard to find the words, and so instead, we invite them to play on the drum what the experience was like for them. And I remember working with a survivor of human trafficking, who, when she started the program on week one, she was really very hesitant, didn't know if she wanted to be there, wasn't quite sure about any of us. And then by week eight, she was the first one to say, "Can I share on the drum?" And it started really, really light, and it got very loud. And if the survivor is comfortable, we say, you know, "Can I share back what I think I heard?" And I said, "I feel like when you started the program, you were really in your shell, but ultimately you stepped into your power and your truth and who you've always been, but that person got covered up because of the trauma that you've experienced." And she shared through tears that, you know, that was exactly what the experience was like for her. And so I think there's this beautiful element of not having to share any details related to your trauma, but just this shared sense of empathy and understanding and co-regulation and just really feeling seen.
Jivana Heyman 16:45
That's what I was thinking about. There's something about yoga, especially, that is so personal, but also it's such an important shared experience. There's something about community that's so essential to the yoga practice. And I imagine for a lot of survivors, they're probably going through therapy or private, you know, individual counseling. And I doubt there's a lot of groups. I don't know maybe there's group therapy, but it feels like a yoga group would be so powerful to share, but I could see how it takes some time to feel comfortable in that setting as well. That's amazing. And I love how yoga is so complementary to therapy. I just think that's such a beautiful and important thing to talk about. It's not a replacement, but just like, it's so great to work with the body while you're doing emotional and mental health work. And it just feels like the strength that yoga brings for all of us, you know, and I love the way you're doing that. Incredible. I'm curious about the, well, I have two things, I want to know about your new book, also, because I feel like that's part of what you're speaking to and I feel like there's a theme there. But I also had a question, also I'm curious about, is it mostly women or people identify as women? I mean, I imagine that's the bulk of people who identify as survivors and who have sexual trauma. But of course, there's men, nonbinary, and trans folk who have a lot of challenges in this way. And I just wonder, how do you create comfort in those groups? Is it challenging because of that, or for other reasons?
Zabie Yamasaki 18:26
It's such an important question, and one that I get, I feel like, every training that I lead. What I will say is that, in the groups that I run, that I have facilitated, or even that I'm recommending, when I'm working with these universities, as they create their own structure, is that they're open to survivors of all gender identities, because what we know is that male survivors and trans survivors experience so many additional barriers to seeking support, because there's rarely support groups that are available to them, or specifically, you know, catered to them. And so what I typically do in my groups, there's an intake process to assess a survivor's readiness for participation in the program, and during that time, it's a very trauma-informed process where I will share with all of the survivors, female identified, male identified, trans that this group is open to survivors of all gender identities. And it really creates the setting where, honestly, in all the groups that I've facilitated, it's really sweet, and it's really sacred, and it feels so open and fluid, where we don't have to separate ourselves into these boxes, you know. So I think just normalizing that. It's tough, you know, because so many campuses are so rooted in the ways that they've always done things where, you know, support groups for female sexual assault survivors.
Jivana Heyman 20:02
Yeah, I just know the gay man that, in my community, I think it's challenging, because I think gay men are very sexualized, and so it's hard to identify or even recognize when there's been sexual abuse. I think it's an issue in a lot of other marginalized communities, like you said, there's, like, an additional barrier there. So it's really interesting. But what about your book? I'm curious about Protect Your Energy, because it seems to me, and I haven't read it yet, but it seems to me like you're trying to expand the themes from your work with survivors, just maybe for a general population. Is that true?
Zabie Yamasaki 20:51
Yes, yes. And before I jump into that, I want to just go back to something you you've mentioned, and it's that we were talking about the complementary aspects of therapy and yoga, and one thing that I'm seeing is that, you know, for example, a university just reached out to me this week, and they said, so many of our therapists are are interested in your trauma-informed yoga certification training, can we just bring you to campus to facilitate it for our counseling center staff? And what I'm seeing too, with the clinical piece, is that trauma-informed yoga is also energizing mental health professionals because it's giving them a new lens to work from. You know what I mean?
Jivana Heyman 21:39
I love that, yes, and that also reminds me that you're one of the presenters in our Trauma Series. You know, we have ongoing programs at Accessible Yoga, Trauma and Yoga Series, which is happening now. I think when this is being released, the series is happening, and people can still join and learn from you. It's a panel of 10 of us, 10 different presenters, each are doing two hour workshops. And I'm so excited you can be part of it. I don't know what was happening last time we had tried to get you and you weren't available, it was really sad. But I'm so glad you'll be here this time.
Zabie Yamasaki 22:13
I know! I'm so, so honored to be a part of this, and I I hope to see you all as a part of this incredible series, because something that Jivana and I were discussing earlier is how important with trauma-informed care, that we're looking at the diversity of perspective, and that especially when we're talking about trauma, there's no one size fits all approach. So this series is a great way to learn the myriad of perspectives out there that can support the incredible work you're doing in your communities.
Jivana Heyman 22:48
Yes, so let's go back to your book. If you don't want, I don't mind. Is it out already? Is it available to buy?
Zabie Yamasaki 22:55
So it's available for pre order. So excited about this book. It just feels so sacred and so special. It's called, Protect Your Energy: A Gentle Guide to Nurture Your Nervous System, Cultivate Rest and Honor Your Needs. And exactly what you were saying earlier, when I met with my editor at Sounds True, my publisher, it was such a sweet moment because when my literary agent and I were working with her to pitch the book, she was like, I've done all your trainings and I've read all your other books and I have your trauma-informed card deck. And I was just, you know, here I am thinking, I'm, I'm going into this meeting, and I'm ready to prove my worth, and say all the things, and feel this need to over prepare, and I had this moment of just honoring all that it's taken to get to this point in my career and to work with an editor who really understood my work and saw the essence of it, the softness and tenderness, and knowing that those practices could be broadened to a larger audience. And so this book really takes the foundations of nervous system, physiology, embodied boundaries, trauma-informed care, the somatics of burnout. You know, all the things I wish I had known 10 years ago when I was a traveling yogi with 12 mats in the back of my car, driving from rape crisis center, to trauma agency, to university. Just really how to be in relationship with our bodies and to listen to the cues of our nervous system and not override them, and to know that we're worthy of so much more than perpetual states of exhaustion and grind culture and just, you know, all the things that many of us had to rely on to survive, but knowing that we're worthy of, you know, just thinking expansively and protecting our energy, and it's just so many sweet practices and frameworks, and I'm so excited about it!
Jivana Heyman 25:26
That's awesome. Well, I can't wait to read it. I think it's one of the topics that comes up in every training that I lead these days, is how do you protect yourself? How do you have strong boundaries as a yoga teacher, and especially as an Accessible Yoga teacher, because I feel like the people that come to my programs tend to be very loving and service oriented, and I feel like they're the ones who also tend to get burned out because they want to help and they want to take care of people. And I love that. I love that about our community, so I often want to find ways to help them protect themselves, you know, and really recognize that they need to serve themselves first, and then they can be strong enough to serve their community. And I know I've been through it myself. I definitely had experiences with burnout, and it's kind of devastating. It can really knock you over and take you by surprise, and you don't know, like, I've had times where I'm just, like, so tired. I'm like, what is happening? You know, it's combination of family stuff, and difficult classes, and financial concerns and, like you said, running around. And I don't know, there's moments where yoga can feel really draining. But even a more subtle level, I think, within every class, if you're supporting people as a yoga teacher, and you're there to kind of help them go through whatever they're going through, even if it's not specifically related to any kind of trauma, you're just teaching yoga, you're still taking on people's energy. Like, I still can't help but feel like, as a sensitive person, I sometimes can feel what people are feeling, and I get a sense of it, and I know that's affecting me. And so I just try to have a simple ritual after I teach, of just washing my hands and trying to let go of their energy and their stuff so that I can be myself and just deal with my stuff and not carry them with me.
Zabie Yamasaki 27:18
Yes, oh my gosh, there's all of this, Jivana. I mean, we can have a whole conversation about this and something that's coming to mind is, you know, something I don't think we talk enough about, is the incredible strength it takes to always hold the default nervous system in the room, whether that be through parenting or caregiving, in the role as a yoga teacher or all of it. You know, you're in a challenging parenting season and then showing up to a difficult class, or absorbing the energies of others and just the longing that many of us have to feel seen amidst all of the holding that we do. And Maya Angelou's words, "Your energy introduces you before you even speak,". just continue to be an anchor for me in the work that I do as a trauma-informed yoga educator and teacher, and really leaning into the inquiries in this moment, am I observing or am I absorbing? (Wow, what a good question.) You know, am I caring or am I carrying? (Oh!) And I know you and me as highly sensitive beings, tend to carry and absorb, and we care so deeply about the work that we do and about the people that we serve, and so also remembering that we're worthy of reclaiming all the parts of ourselves that have gotten lost in service to others, and just so much more to say, but I will speak a little this in my workshop, so please come join us. And order the new book if you're able!
Jivana Heyman 29:09
Yeah, we can put a link, if you send that to me, I can add it to the shownotes so people can find it easily. And also, you mentioned parenting, I think that's really where I learned, or I'm learning the most about boundaries. My kids are much older than yours. You know, this month they're turning 24 and 20, and so they're basically adults now, but the teenage years and more, just like, you know, I loved when they're babies. To me, that's a different kind of energy, like, it's exhaustion, like physical work, but the emotional energy of raising older kids really taught me about boundaries, because I had to recognize what was theirs and what was mine. And now, especially as adults, we're really getting clear about that. I don't if know people with young adult children know what I mean, because there's times where they come to me, like they're babies still, like they want me to take care of them. And there other times where I'm talking to them like a peer. I'm like, wow, you're actually an adult! So there's two sides to that, young adults, that I'm always facing. And it's been really interesting, like, how can I have a boundary for you, and how that boundary helps me actually love you and be available for you more? Because I'm really not at risk of losing myself anymore in that relationship. I can just be here and be myself. And the other one thought I had about it that I want to share, is that I think a lot of yoga teachers, we get told that we have to practice, you know, that's the answer to this. Just practice more. And I agree, kind of, what I want to share about it is that for me, I need to find a yoga practice and a meditative practice that that I love, that really supports me, not what someone else tells me I need to do. Do you know, I mean? Like, what, what I found is that, yes, I need to practice in the way that I want to do it.
Zabie Yamasaki 29:09
Oh, and I just, you know, and maybe that's laying in Shavasana while everybody around you is moving, you know, I think some of the most beautiful moments in my classes are when I look around the room and everybody's doing something completely different. And I you know this feeling in your Accessible Yoga classes, just when we can really create spaces where people can celebrate the choices they have with their own bodies and where we also practice that ourselves, you know, just as you're saying so beautifully.
Jivana Heyman 31:47
And I wanted to ask you that question that I've been asking all my guests, which is, is there, are there particular stories, or story, or experiences that are really present for you now, something that has kind of supported you from your past? You know, as I'm reflecting over 30 years, I keep going back to like, what have I actually learned? You know, what have I found during this time? So I always love to hear from my guests what they find. What have you found that supports you?
Zabie Yamasaki 32:15
Oh, my goodness. Well, early on in my career, when I was leading these eight-week yoga healing series on various campuses, you know, before I started training other people to do it, I'll never forget, at the end of one of the series, there was a survivor who shared with me, she said, "Never have I felt so safe without having to speak a single word about my assault." And you know the beauty of these moments, where it's this energy exchange, where your heart feels so full that you can create a space for someone to access safety, what at one point never felt attainable to them. I used to teach at a donation based studio every Wednesday, and there was an older woman who would come, and it would take her an hour and a half to get to my class, and she would come every week. There was another young, young girl, a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, who she would come and just lay in fetal position the entire time. I would just put a tissue box next to her mat, and she said it was one of the only places in her life where she could feel safe. And so these threads, you know, these stories of so many students who I've had the honor of holding space for who have really allowed me to take my career to where it is and share this medicine with others, and train other people and how they can create these ripples of healing in their own community. I mean, I never forget how it all started, you know, and that's definitely what continues to support me. It's those early stories that really ground me.
Jivana Heyman 34:19
Wow. Thank you for saying that. I love that. I know. I mean, I think that's the thing about service, is that it's just so beneficial. Like, when we serve, we also get so much benefit, but we have to be careful to, like you said, protect our energy, protect those boundaries, or the service can take over. (Absolutely.) I wonder if you have any, I mean, I don't want to ask you to share too much about your book, but since it has come up and you mentioned already some really great ideas, I just wonder if you have a few thoughts about that? Like, what else can we do as yoga teachers to protect our energy, or is there something from the book that you could share with us?
Zabie Yamasaki 34:59
Oh my gosh. There's so much to say. And you know me, I it's so hard for me to be concise. But I will share one little piece that I continue to come back to. And it's this notion that consistency, predictability, routine, ritual, repetition, all of this can really support someone who's struggling with a dysregulated nervous system. And so what I would share to yoga teachers in this space, or the those working with this modality and integrating it into their work, to take the pressure off of yourselves, right, to always have a new sequence or a fancy flow or a need to over prepare. You know, I'm not saying, of course, with trauma-informed classes, we want to be grounded in the frameworks that inform the space holding that we're doing. But I would say to remember the beauty of, you know, I've had so many survivors say I love coming to class with you, because I know what to expect each week, and that's really regulating for me. And there's magic that lives there, right, in knowing that we can take the pressure off of ourselves to do all of the over preparation, and instead lean into the routine and ritual. I know that that's also being of service.
Jivana Heyman 36:28
I love that. I think that is such a great message for yoga teachers. I think that we put so much pressure on ourselves, and sometimes it's from students, some people, some people, their nervous system wants something new all the time. But that doesn't mean you always have to give them what they ask for. You can do your thing, and it's really of service to so many people. I always say, like, have the majority of the class be the same and just change up maybe one or two things. You can have maybe one different pose or one different breathing practice or something. But it's not like the whole thing has to be thrown out the window. It is so calming to know, okay, when I go there, this is what I'm going to be doing. And I know for myself because I have anxiety, so it's like when I go to classes, when I do anything, I kind of want to know ahead of time, what can I expect in that place? I love that. I think that's such a beautiful message. (Thank you.) Thank you. Wow. I love all these themes, and I'm excited for your book. I think it's going to serve a lot of people incredibly well. (Thank you so much.)Such a great topic. So yay, I'm excited to read it. Anything else you want to share?
Zabie Yamasaki 37:41
No, I feel like we covered so much in such a short period of time. That was amazing! (Thanks for doing that.) Every time we're I'm with you, I feel like we go deep, like there's no scratching the surface. And that's, you know, I just admire and respect you so much, and the work that you do and all the spaces that you hold and the trainings that you lead, it's truly incredible what you have built and your heart is so big, and your books are just such gifts to the world. And congratulations on 30 years and of being of service to this beautiful community that you've created, I'm just so honored to know you and to be a part of.
Jivana Heyman 38:30
That so sweet. (You deserve it, you deserve it!) Okay, thank you. I know, I'm trying to take it in. But I also just want to thank you know for your amazing work and what incredible service to a community that needs it, you know, survivors. It's just so amazing. I mean, how incredible that you found a way to support that community, and I hope this podcast helps you get the message out about your work, honestly, and that people will reach out to who really need that. I feel like there's so many of us who do, so it just means a lot to me. So thanks, Zabie. Thanks for being here. Good luck with your book and with your family, your growing family.
Jivana Heyman 38:40
Thank you so much. I'm taking it all in.
Jivana Heyman 39:17
All right, thanks.
Zabie Yamasaki 39:19
Take care. Bye. (Bye.)
Jivana Heyman 39:30
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Jivana Heyman 40:37
Welcome back everyone. Hey, Deanna!
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:39
Hey, Jivana, how are you doing?
Jivana Heyman 40:42
I'm good. I'm maybe a little tired. I've been working out too much. I'm getting ready for my first triathlon, and I just pushing it hard. So yeah, how about you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:57
I'm good, getting ready for a move. So things are a little swirling and chaotic, but doing my best to stay centered in the midst of it.
Jivana Heyman 41:05
Yeah, moving is rough. There's those big transitions in life that are always challenging, you know, like moving, getting married, having children, you know, things like that. It's a big one. (Yeah a big threshold.) Yeah, well, I hope it goes well. What did you think of that episode with Zabie?
Deanna Michalopoulos 41:26
That was an incredible episode. And I know Zabie said that, but you two talked about so many meaningful, rich topics, like, in the last 30 minutes. So this was, like an incredible episode. I really loved it, and I love the topic of boundaries and protecting your energy. I just think it's so important, especially, you know, as a yoga teacher.
Jivana Heyman 41:45
Yeah, I love talking to her. I always love talking to her and I know that episode, it did feel like we covered a lot. I just had so many questions for her. I was kind of bombarding her with questions because I don't know, I just it's so intriguing to me. I shouldn't laugh. It's really, it's such an important topic. I actually am so excited about her work. I know in the yoga world, we talk about abuse, sometimes that happens within yoga and like, how, you know, there's been so much, but I don't feel like we've had enough of this conversation that she's sharing, the positive side, the benefit, the potential that yoga has for supporting people who've experience sexual trauma. And I love that, and I'm so grateful to Zabie for her work and the way she shared it. I thought it was intriguing, too, the way she's worked through college campuses, that's so brilliant, actually, reaching so many people that way. And of course, through her books and her offerings. I mean, I think she's reached a lot more than that, but it's just such a unique and important program that she's offering, and anyway, also really appreciated so many of things she shared, like you said, around energy and boundaries. Yeah, it's rough.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:04
It sounds like the through line in her work as well, like when she's talking about working with survivors, as well as when it comes to, like, you know, somebody kind of protecting their energy. It's kind of, I think she said, "You can't leave the body out of the healing process." That to me, feels like the through line, what I know at least about her upcoming book, which I'm very excited about. And I love that, like, it's part of who we are. Like, we have a we have a mind, we have a body, we have a soul, or, you know, however you want to call that energetic, sacred part of ourselves, and they all work in tandem. You can't really pick them apart.
Jivana Heyman 43:42
Right. I mean, there's huge potential for combining yoga with therapy, and I feel like that's happening more and more. I was on a podcast recently just about that. I can maybe put a link in the shownotes for this whole podcast that's focused on bringing yoga into the therapy room, which I thought was a really great concept, trying to share more about yoga with therapists. I mean, I feel like, exactly like you said, healing is so multidimensional. And I feel like, you know, for anyone who's experienced trauma, and especially some kind of really intense trauma, it can be so great to have a combination of therapeutic practices like talk therapy and a body based practice like yoga. It's so, so beautiful.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:24
And it sounded like, with her work on college campuses, it sounds like the yoga aspect of it really was a doorway into other sorts of healing, these and therapeutic modalities that maybe folks wouldn't have considered before, entering a space kind of like, you know, a yogic space.
Jivana Heyman 44:42
Yeah and the in the community too, right? Like, there was something so beautiful about the way she described what happened in those circles, like how people were connecting with each other. I think people often feel so isolated when they've been through something like that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:57
It's um, I think she talked about co-regulation in those spaces.
Jivana Heyman 45:01
Right. Yeah, I love that. Anyway, thank you, Zabie, for doing such amazing work. And yeah, I mean, for me, I was recently writing about brahmacharya because I was trying to connect this back to the yoga teachings, like this idea of protecting your energy and boundaries. And I feel like that's what the yama, brahmacharya, is really trying to teach us. And it's funny, because I always feel like brahmacharya is the one that people get a little stuck on. Maybe it's me, it's just me! You know, when I teach the yamas, it's the fourth one, and it's like, brahmacharya, you know, traditionally, was about celibacy for male monks, I think, is probably the context. But you know, then it's translated into wise use of energy, which sounds like a nice idea, but also, I think it's exactly this concept of boundaries and protecting energy. And I think brahmacharya has a few other definitions, actually, the word brahmacharya, which is like, divine or God, and then to reach for or to be a student of. I think what one meaning of brahmacharya is to focus your energy on your spiritual practice, to be a student of spirituality. And I think in the context of the Yoga Sutras, where I'm mentioning it, you know, in the yamas and from Ashtanga Yoga, Patanjali is really looking at how we can practice ethical teachings that can keep us focused on our practice and connect us back to ourselves. So I think in that case, I think brahmacharya is like having boundaries and protecting energy by focusing it on the things that we're trying to do, and especially on our spiritual practice. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:49
Yeah, that does make sense. And it's an interesting take on brahmacharya. I do feel like, you know, like, because of the celibacy aspect, there's some tendency I've just seen in conversations about it, to sort of like, skip it, or just say, like, oh, you know, not as relevant today or for whatever reason. But no, that's much deeper. And, you know, sometimes when you talk about boundaries, where you're talking about it in the context of, you know, a yoga class or whatever else, there's like, you know, it feels like a little superficial where it's like, oh I need to say no more or but I love the way Zabie acknowledged, it's not just about like, oh, I need to say no more. It's like, there's a strength it takes to hold the default nervous system in the room. That really stuck with me, and that's whether you're a yoga teacher, you're parenting, you're caregiving. You know, it kind of realizes how much your connection with your body is really having an influence on others. I don't know, does that make sense?
Jivana Heyman 47:47
Yeah, it does. And actually it goes back to something I think you mentioned earlier about our role as a yoga teacher in holding that space, but also not taking on the responsibility for other people's healing. And there's a really difficult balance there, as a yoga teacher to find, which is, like you said, you can really support people by having a regulated nervous system and kind of modeling that through your own practice, actually. I mean, that's why your practice really comes into play. At the same time, you can't take on their stuff. So that's an interesting boundary. It's like, by focusing on your own practice, which is really, I think, what brahmacharya is telling us to do, focus on your spiritual practice. You are, in fact, actually offering support for someone's healing, but not in the way we normally think about it, which is that we don't have to take on the burden or responsibility for them. Do you know what I'm saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:46
Absolutely. And Zabie shared two inquiries that I wrote down, and these are worthy of like writing on a post-it note and putting on your wall, like right in front of you right now. So get your pens out. (Okay.) But the two inquiries are, am I observing or am I absorbing? And then am I caring or am I carrying?
Jivana Heyman 49:09
Okay, wait. I remember her saying that, yeah, that really stuck with me, too. So am I observing or am I absorbing? (That's right.) Am I caring or am I carrying? (That's right.) Okay. So I feel like that's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of yoga teacher's role, you know, which is, yeah, we're the observer. We don't have to absorb other people's energy and their stuff, whatever they're going through, because they're always going through a lot, especially, I think, as an Accessible Yoga teacher, we're like, basically out there in service of people who are generally struggling, maybe marginalized communities, you know, like Zabie is doing. So these seem like they're especially important. And I know for me over the years, it's been really hard to not get really caught up in people's lives, you know, of my students. Especially if they would come for a long time, like I would, I mean, yeah, I guess we became friends. I mean, I don't know if I would call it that, they're still my student, but there was a closeness that came from just getting to know them so much over the years, and I couldn't help but care for them. And yet, maybe that's not like she said, carrying their stuff, right? Like, I could care about them, I could love them, but not take on their stuff. That's the challenge I've always found, it's always hard.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:34
Do you have any, and you mentioned, I think, in the episode that early in your teaching career, you would like wash your hands after practice as a simple ritual to kind of symbolically feel like you were cleansing your energetic space, let's say.
Jivana Heyman 50:49
I still do that. I still try to do that after I teach. It's like wash my hands, like I'll go to the bathroom and wash my hands and really feel like I'm letting go of the energy that I just experienced there and other people's stuff. I think the thing that helped me the most was my focus on my students' agency, and a recognition of the fact that when I take on their stuff, not only not giving them agency, but I'm actually not giving them the opportunity to take care of themselves. It's a lack of trust and faith in them, actually. And so there's been a shift for me, I guess. I don't know how to say this, there's like a shift that happened early in my career. When I started, I would get burnout. I was going through a bit of a burnout when I had some students pass away from AIDS. Some of my students with AIDS died, and I almost stopped teaching because I felt like I wasn't offering anything. You know, they died. I mean, it was just horrible, and I was overwhelmed by it, and I thought I had to do something about it. But when I recognize that it's not my job, you know, that by making it about me, I'm actually taking it away from them. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's their responsibility and their burden in a positive way, it's for them to experience, and I can be there kind of as a cheerleader or support on the side, but I can't go in and fix someone's life. That's not my job as a teacher. And so I think faith in them and also faith in the teachings, when I recognize that, that really I don't have much to offer, but yoga does. And so my job is to simply share what I know about the yoga teachings and give them tools to work on themselves.
Jivana Heyman 52:53
So I guess it's more like, I don't know if there's a ritual that I have, so much as a well, maybe there is a ritual related to that, which is whenever I teach, before I begin, I say to myself that I want to be a vehicle for the teachings to come through me. So that's part of it, to be of service. So to focus on the service aspect, and actually as true karma yoga and service, which is that, to be a vehicle and to not make it about me, right? This is about sharing yoga and sharing these tools with people so they can do with them what they want. The result is out of my hands, right? That's the thing about karma yoga, is letting go of the result. And the other piece is at the end of the practice is to then offer the benefits of the practice, to dedicate it to something else, other than me. So like, I always offer dedication. I do that with the class, with the students as well. I ask everyone to dedicate their practice to something. It could be themselves if they feel like they need it. But in yoga practice, we're building energy, we're building prana, and then if we don't focus it somewhere else, it just supports what's ever supports what's ever already going on in your mind. So it can be for your own healing if you need that, or for someone else, someone you love, or just out into the world, for all the people who are suffering. And I think that turning it over that way, I think is an aspect of a boundary, in a way. What do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:20
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's really beautiful. And I like that, like, you know, creating a boundary, it's not about you as a teacher, right? You're allowing your students to step into their own space, take responsibility and really build their own confidence and trust in themselves.
Jivana Heyman 54:42
Yeah. And I can support that by reminding them of that. That they are full and complete and whole already. And that's what I love about yoga so much, is that yoga begins with that. Yoga starts with this concept of fullness and that you have everything you need inside and that yoga is the practice that removes the obstacles to that experience, to the experience of your wholeness. And how can I teach that and share that message if I don't believe it myself, if I don't perceive my students as whole and full and complete? No matter what they think is happening, no matter what experiences they're having and how hard those might be, and I'm not taking away from that, like, people can really be suffering and struggling, and it can be horrible, but at the same time, my job as a yoga teacher is to see their fullness and then use the practice to help them, remind them of that and to encourage them to find their way back there as a support for them. Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:42
Yeah. Thanks so much, Jivana, that's beautiful. Yeah, thanks for asking.
Jivana Heyman 55:48
So should we leave it there?
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:51
Let's leave it there, and I'll mention Zabie's book again, Protect Your Energy: A Gentle Guide to Nurture Your Nervous System, Cultivate Rest, and Honor Your Needs. And I believe it's out in April, which feels so far away. We need it sooner, but you can get your pre-order now.
Jivana Heyman 56:06
I know I'm so excited to read that book. Congratulations, Zabie. I mean, she's really a wealth of information, and she's a great example, to me, of someone who's of service. I feel that in the way she shares her passion and the way she's created something so beautiful and powerful just out of this desire to serve. It's really, really profound. So thanks, Zabie, thanks for all your work and also for being here on the podcast. Thanks everyone for listening, and thank you, Deanna, as always.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:40
Thank you, Jivana. 'Til next time.
Jivana Heyman 56:41
All right, bye.
