Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, known today as Santa Barbara, California. And I'm so glad you're here. I had such an amazing conversation with my friend Uma Alessandra Cocchi. She's an Italian yoga teacher, Accessible Yoga teacher and yoga therapist, and she's been teaching Accessible Yoga and leading my Accessible Yoga Training in Italian for many, many years. She's created an entire community of Accessible Yoga in Italy, and I'm just so grateful to her for that and for all her work. In fact, in the conversation, she shares a bit about her work as a yoga therapist, she's been doing research on yoga for digestive issues, and the results are astounding, just amazing. So I hope you enjoy spending this time with Uma, like I did. In fact, she's also going to be teaching in person in London in the middle of August. She'll be leading the Accessible Yoga Training with Rodrigo Souza, who you probably know from the podcast and because he leads the Accessible Yoga Ambassador program, and together, they're going to be guiding the in person portion of the Accessible Yoga Training in London coming up just in a bit. So you can practice in person with both of them if you happen to be in London. But if not, you can just enjoy this conversation with Uma and get to know a little bit about her and her amazing work. So thanks for being here, and I hope you enjoy this episode.
Jivana Heyman 2:22
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Jivana Heyman 3:33
Okay, welcome everybody, and welcome Uma, it's so good to see you. Thank you for being here. (Thank you.) Maybe you could introduce yourself a little to us.
Uma Cocchi 3:43
Thank you, Jivana. Thank you, Jivana, for inviting me, and congratulations on your 30th year of teaching. (Thank you.) Yeah. My name is Uma, Alessandra Cocchi. Alessandra Uma Cocchi and I come from Italy, Central Italy. I lived for a long time in Milan, working in different worlds, and then left everything and dedicated my life only to yoga, coming back home in central Italy.
Jivana Heyman 4:25
You were working in fashion, is that right?
Uma Cocchi 4:27
I was working in fashion for almost 20 years, in fashion and communication. So I polarized the choices in my life and no wonder I ended up in doing yoga, since those were really stressful and crazy, really crazy. And in 2013, I met someone named Jivana Heyman in Austria. I did want to take an Accessible Yoga Training. I think it was probably one of your first trainings named Accessible Yoga, and that changed my life.
Jivana Heyman 5:21
That's sweet. I mean, I appreciate you saying that, yeah. What year was that, 2013? (2013.) Yeah, I had been doing 200 hour Accessible Yoga Trainings from 2007, 2008 but then I just started leading those Accessible Yoga Training, you know, continuing education for yoga teachers, which is the one you took, that I had just started probably, maybe 2011, 2012, so that was one of the first ones. And I had been invited by the Sivananda organization to teach at their ashram in Austria. Isn't that where it was? It was so exciting.
Uma Cocchi 6:06
It was KitzbĂĽhel and I do remember every morning, every day, we did a walking meditation in woods, and we were not allowed to speak, to talk, during the way in, but we were allowed to break our rows in our way back. And I remember you told me, you know, Uma, I have a dream. I would like to create an organization for Accessible Yoga, and I felt part of the team right away. And I remember that immediately you were able to create such a strong team. I was part of it for some event organization, and remember to be at the first international Accessible Yoga Conference in Santa, Barbara.
Jivana Heyman 7:10
Yeah, you came. That was so great.
Uma Cocchi 7:12
I came! I came.
Jivana Heyman 7:15
Yeah, that was so nice to have you here. I know you really were a part of that, the origins. It's amazing! It's amazing. I know. Well, I didn't know we'd be talking about that so much.
Uma Cocchi 7:29
Yeah, I know. I know. But it's so important for me. I mean, it's like a threshold, like me being a yoga teacher before that time and after that time, and so I can see the differential between the two sides.
Jivana Heyman 7:47
That's amazing. Yeah, you were such an important part of it for me. I mean, not only planning everything, but then also planning what became our only European conference. Remember that? I remember that all the work you put into that, my God, it was incredible. We had that conference in Germany. Was it 20...? (In Berlin?) Yeah. Near Berlin. (It was 2019.) Yeah, 2019.
Uma Cocchi 8:14
Yeah. And we organized the whole conference by I mean, never seeing each other, right? Which was not before COVID, which, which was a great thing, was not, I mean, now it's easy to me to Zoom, but before it was a little bit...
Jivana Heyman 8:34
It took years, too. I mean, we were working on that for two years, I think, at least, to find a location and to get the presenters and to organize everything. And it was people from all over Europe. It was such a beautiful team we had. I still think about all those people. It was such a fun experience. Yeah, anyway, but let's talk more about you.
Uma Cocchi 8:57
Yeah. So what I do? What do I do now? I am lucky enough, honored to train under your name and Accessible Yoga Trainings. (So you lead trainings, yeah.) Yeah, in Europe and Italy, in so in Italian and in English. And we have a coming Accessible Yoga Training in London this August, mid August, and I'm so excited because I will be leading it with Rodrigo Souza, whom I guess, many listeners to this podcast may know. And what I do is teaching my original style of yoga, which is Integral Yoga in an accessible way at all levels and also dedicating part of my time to the therapeutic support goals of yoga. And in fact, an article, a scientific article, is coming out soon about researching the effects of yoga, and it's Accessible Yoga. We tested a protocol based on Accessible Yoga on inflammatory, chronic intestinal diseases.
Jivana Heyman 10:33
Wow, so and a particular one? We call it inflammatory bowel disease, or?
Uma Cocchi 10:41
Yeah, well, it, it's a whole category, which includes IBD, IBS, inflammation in the intestine. (Wow.) And in the end, I ended up with start studying and getting trained in Accessible Yoga because I wanted to work in the yoga therapy field. Well, I don't like this name at all, yoga therapy, but it's easy to understand each other. And then I realized that you cannot have yoga therapy if yoga is not accessible. So basically, yoga therapy, for me, it's an Accessible Yoga that is nuanced with some care and attention in different fields. But Accessible Yoga is the technology of yoga, though I know that your perspective is more social and global than individually.
Jivana Heyman 11:51
Well, I mean both. I think it's such an interesting thing to think about, the relationship between Accessible Yoga and yoga therapy. I do think sometimes yoga therapy is more about individualizing the practice and focusing on supporting individual goals that people have, like healing. And I think of Accessible Yoga more as just yeah, like the foundational ideas of how to make the practice available to everybody. So maybe yeah, like you said, I think Accessible Yoga could be part of yoga therapy. Sometimes I think of yoga therapy as making yoga more specific, and Accessible Yoga as making it broader, almost, you know, like going the opposite way.
Uma Cocchi 12:33
I do agree, although the more I teach and the more I realized that any healing can start when we get up, like talking about the koshas. And the koshas, for those who may not have heard about the koshas, are those different dimensions of us, and they are described in the Upanishads, the very old texts, when we get to that Vijnanamaya Kosha, which is the higher dimension of the mind, beyond the thinking mind, I think that that's the place healing happens. So in a way, yeah, we can modulate, we can customize the practice, but to me, the goal is to get there.
Jivana Heyman 13:35
Yeah, right. So, it's like all yoga has that therapeutic aspect, we could say. And what got you into that area of treatment, working with digestive diseases and digestive issues?
Uma Cocchi 13:52
As most of the things happening in life, it was by chance. I have a cousin who is a well known doctor, and he teaches at the universities in Italy. And we met once, and he didn't know I was a working, serving as a yoga teacher. But, you know, I found out that the Eastern practices are so powerful, especially for the intestinal diseases, which are, all the thing about the second brain, the emotional life of our... and he didn't know. He didn't know about my path, the path I had taken, and so we found out we had this passion, and I started working with him, for him, his doctors, and we started working on that since 2016, so almost 10 years of research.
Jivana Heyman 15:02
And you said you have a new paper coming out. And is it very positive?
Uma Cocchi 15:08
Very positive. It is very positive. What we have found out is that basically, when you get to the seventh or the eighth class in practice, that's kind of the threshold point after which something happens, starts happening. When I talk about practice, I talk about everything, like bodily practice, if possible. I talk about the art of relaxation. I talk about breath, I talk about meditation. I talk about the philosophical perspective that yoga is giving, which is crucial to me to share the sense of yoga, the goal of yoga. So the protocol I put together is a system, including all these things. Each class is dedicated to a philosophical idea, perspective, concept, and then the whole practice, then the bodily practice develops after that.
Jivana Heyman 16:36
But you see a change happening after the seventh or eighth class. And why is that, do you think?
Uma Cocchi 16:41
I believe that the first reason why this happens is that people learn to recognize their feelings, their sensations, and not to fear them, because...
Jivana Heyman 16:57
Not to fear them?
Uma Cocchi 16:59
Fear, to have fear with them, because before the seventh class, in general of course, we are generally speaking, but when they start the practice they have never done yoga, what happens is that the symptom is an alarm, and with that sign of alarm, the whole system, the whole body, the whole mind, gets into an alarm mode, and they panic. Fear and panic create a vicious circle by which the inflammation increases, then the mind is more crazy and the fear is higher. If we can reverse this mechanism by calmly, quietly listening to us, okay, this is the symptom. I can breathe into it, I can relax that, so the circle is broken. I think this is one of the most important mechanisms that happens.
Jivana Heyman 18:13
That's amazing. It's amazing work you're doing. Have you found it's helped you in that way? Because I was thinking about that. I've definitely been doing yoga for a long time, but I still get into that, you know, into that vicious cycle, like you said. What do you find for yourself?
Uma Cocchi 18:34
Well, originally, times ago, years ago, I was suffering with intestinal issues, not serious issues, right? It was my target organ. Then I probably learned how to breathe, to activate the vagus nerve, we say. But of course, I mean all that tension that we have, which is so smart, it went somewhere else. And so it's a continuous travel in our body, and like detecting when the where the stress is going to flow through and work through
Jivana Heyman 19:23
Yeah, well, you know, in every episode, I ask people to reflect on if there's a story or an example, and I was just wondering if there's something that connects to this idea for you, or, like, I don't know, something where you've noticed that change in the way you're thinking and responding to the world. Because I think that's what you're getting at, is like, how yoga helps us react or respond differently to stimuli, either inside the body or outside of us.
Uma Cocchi 19:55
Thank you for this question, and I have a little story. It's a simple story, which was so meaningful to me, and I never forget. I was at the ashram of my original school of yoga I was trained in. And I was taking a training, I guess, and at that ashram, there are two morning meditation sessions, one is 4:30am, something like that, and one is 6am. And every time I was there, it's in Virginia, you know the place I'm talking about. I always went to the six o'clock, 6am meditation. But once I said, but I'm here, I'm totally dedicated to a yogic lifestyle, style of life, of living, so why don't you experience a 4:30am meditation? So I decided I wanted to go to the 4:30am meditation the next morning. But I'm often late. My relationship with time is a little bit odd. (Well, you're Italian!) I'm Italian, you know. And so I realized it was late. I was late, and I was running, running, running towards the meditation room. That meditation room had a double door, so you had a big door, an entrance where you could take the pillow and leave your stuff, take your shoes off, and then there was another door leading to the big room, meditation room. So I run in and I slam, do you say slam the door? And slam the door open, and it made a huge noise. When I came in at the entrance, I realized there was a man. He was sitting on a corner, and he was late as me, but he was quietly meditating outside the meditation room, and I was coming in with such a noise, as an Italian, exactly as an Italian. What was worse is that I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. Ah, you are meditating, and I made so much noise. I'm so sorry." So it was worsening, definitely worsening the situation. I was feeling the differential in the energies in the room, the vibration of the room, but that was happening, and he looked at me. He dis-closed his eyes. He looked at me with a smile and said to me, "Yes, I was meditating. I was late for meditation. I was meditating at the entrance. You rushed in, you ran in, you made a lot of noise, you interrupted my meditation. And this is life." To me, was so, so strong. So this is a nice story. This is the nice story I always remember and it dates back to probably 20 years ago.
Jivana Heyman 23:34
It seems like there's two parts to it. There's the piece of like, recognizing your own way that you were coming into the room, but also his response, it feels meaningful to you.
Uma Cocchi 23:45
Yeah, his response was crucial to me, and it was like the learning that we are here as in a play, as in a comedy. Maybe a tragedy! We are here, as you know, theater and maya, and it is important to maintain that kind of an external vision, external sight where we can kind of have looser attachments to what is happening, moment to moment.
Jivana Heyman 24:29
Looser attachment, so meaning that, like you aren't so caught up in it or something, right?
Uma Cocchi 24:36
Yeah. I mean, of course it's a goal. It is a goal of more lives, but yet not being caught up in it and seeing everything from a more global perspective. And if I can, I would like to share some reflections which helped me so much as a person, as a yoga teacher. And I think I want, in a way, to convey this feeling when I teach and see if this feeling, if these ideas can be helpful to others. And it is about the ideal time. There's a nice book, actually a very odd, strange book, very difficult to read. And it is, I don't think it has ever, ever been translated in English. The title is, 'The Science of One' in Italian, 'La Scienza dell'Uno,' and it was written by a scientist, a physics scientist. His name is Victorrio Marchi. When reading, you can see, he's a man of a huge culture, moving continuously, shifting from physics, science to spirituality. And at a certain point, he demonstrates, as a scientist, that life, time, and space, well, are not there. Those are mental frameworks through which we can understand life and live life. We don't have other ways to it.
Jivana Heyman 26:54
Right, like time and space aren't as objective as we think. That's changeable. And yes.
Uma Cocchi 27:03
Exactly. And he says, which struck me, time is not passing by. We travel through time. And this is so powerful to me, because it changes completely our perspective. It's a reflection that talks about empowerment. And in Accessible Yoga, we love this word, right, empowerment, because it's not something we are victim of, of the time that passes by? We travel through time.
Jivana Heyman 27:50
Yeah, that's interesting. I was thinking about it. You know, a few months ago, I taught a course on Accessible Yoga for Older Adults, and I was doing a lot of reading about aging, and it occurred to me that if we were more present in our lives, you know, if we're in the present moment, that it actually slows time down because you're experiencing it differently. You're actually in the moment experiencing it, rather than the sense of rushing, you know, like rushing through life, which is how I think I usually feel, and how most of us experience life and time. Like, we're rushing to get to the next thing, we're not really in the moment, enjoying that. I have to say, I mean, I don't mean to be stereotypical about Italy or Italians, but I have to say that I do get a sense that in Italy, and when I've been there and spent time with you, that there's definitely more that, enjoying life and being in the moment. But I don't know if that's true. Do you think that's just a stereotype?
Uma Cocchi 29:00
You know, I don't know, because I'm into it, and I do not realize, that that we like to enjoy life apart from work. Yes, this is maybe true. That we love, we research duty. Yes, this may be true as well, but I see a lot of stress around of rushing people and also superficial way of living.
Jivana Heyman 29:33
Yeah. I just wonder if you could speak a bit about that in terms of yoga there, because I don't know, I mean, maybe you're not familiar with yoga in the US so much, although I think we tend to be very loud here about what we're doing. But I'm just curious about what it's like to teach Accessible Yoga in Italy. I mean, how is it? Does it seem like a natural part of the yoga community, or is it like, considered, I don't know, outside of what's happening in Italian yoga right now?
Uma Cocchi 30:08
I guess it is growing. I mean, the awareness of a need for Accessible Yoga is growing and growing. I do not think there has ever been a time when Accessible Yoga was not considered. I remember, since we opened the first Italian Facebook page. I mean, two days we had like 600 likes, and I'm talking about 2015, something like that. So the idea, I think, it's the same with the US and the rest of Europe, that we have two kinds of sides now, the performative athletic yoga, and then we have the more felt, adapted practice. I don't think this side is marginalized in Italy. It's growing and largely felt. (Yeah, great.) Then this does not mean that everybody takes the trainings I offer. [laughs] But there's also, I don't have a huge amount of people, probably for two reasons. First of all, what is considered a low pricing in the US is very high in Italy. And so the cost is a reason. And the second thing is that I don't like to be so visible in terms of marketing my training. I'm sure most of the people who are going to listen to this podcast do not know me, and so this part, this is part of my nature, and I learned to accept it.
Jivana Heyman 30:09
Yes, I understand that. It's funny. You know, I think it's part of yoga these days, that people really struggle with the sense that you have to be a public figure to be a yoga teacher. I don't think it's true. I mean, I think you do have to be willing to be a community organizer and bring people together, and to stand in front of a group and speak and teach and put yourself out there that way. But I don't think being on social media is necessary to that level that we've seen it. I just feel like there's tension there for me, like, I think teaching locally is so important. And for anyone listening, I just hope they recognize that, like, it's okay to do that, there's no reason to do anymore, it's fine. I mean, it's incredible, actually, maybe even a better service than being a public figure. You know, it just seems like we've got it backwards.
Uma Cocchi 33:18
Yeah, I think we're going to get to a point where there's so much on social media, everybody's advertising themselves so much, then everything becomes neutral and everything kind of deletes the other because there's so much. But I do appreciate all of your doing. I remember once, and that was a lesson I learned from you, among the many lessons I learned from you, Jivana, you know I considered you a friend, but also my mentor. And it was that we were discussing about my shyness, showing myself up, and you said to me, you know, there's a way of showing up because of personal ego, but there's another way of showing up because we want to convey some awareness, some information, so it becomes a service. So I learned that lesson, I did not put it in practice so much, but it was an important lesson.
Jivana Heyman 34:34
I think you do. I think you do put it in practice. I mean, teaching is a service. I think we can keep that focus and remind ourselves and our students when we're teaching as well, that that's what we're doing. It's not about us, it's about them. And anytime you're teaching yoga, you're serving. So I think that's a beautiful, beautiful teaching. Anything else you want to share with us? Um. In particular, I'm just curious, any reflections on teaching Accessible Yoga that have been meaningful to you? Is there any last thoughts?
Uma Cocchi 35:08
Yeah, yes, yes, yes. Learning, I mean getting in touch with this methodology, perspective, horizon, how you want to call it really changed my way of perceiving myself as a teacher and serving better. But these are things that we always say. So nothing I'm saying, nothing special about this. What I can share about... maybe I want to share about my way of because, of course, every one of us has a customized, personal way of teaching yoga. And I cannot teach a class if I don't give a topic, I don't give a theme, which are usually taken from yoga philosophy and to me, this is not really so important in terms of conveying the content of these reflections, but also this is crucial, because from these ideas, universal values, a way of practicing emanates. I mean, if I start teaching a class talking about ahimsa or seeing things with closed on or just slightly open eyes, or whatever, whatever, being authentic or recognizing the different dimensions we have. If we start the class out of a specific perspective, then it's easier to convey the concept of empowerment, of agency. It is much easier to have the practitioner feel free to adapt, to feel free to find that practice. So this is something I always do, because the universal yogic teachings are, they state something very clear, but in a way, they're neutral, the perspectives that they present. And the practitioner can welcome the idea, can try to feel it through their body, through their breath, through their mind. So the way, because one of the most difficult things for us is to have, especially Western people, but by now, I guess, also Indian people, Eastern people, to detach from the usual way of practicing with their body, competition, the performance. And if we get into a mental state of mind, it can be allowed by the philosophical ideas made Simple, then the body follows.
Jivana Heyman 38:50
So I think you're saying that when you're teaching, you need to give people the foundational philosophy that underlies the practice so that they can really go deep themselves. Is that way of saying? That, otherwise we stay on the superficial level, the physical level, if the teacher isn't willing to really explore and explain and share the philosophical teachings. I do think that's such a beautiful point to make. I know, I mean, I talk a lot about yoga philosophy, but I don't know if I talk enough about that, about how we bring it right into the class, not only in the way we teach, but in a really, just very direct way, like actually talking about it. You can actually just take a topic, like you said, and teach what it means, something like ahimsa, or any of the yamas or niyamas, or really anything. You could take a sutra, you know, and make that the theme, or teaching from the Gita, and there's so many options. So I love that. I love that idea. Thank you. I'm going to think about that more, about how I can do that more myself, because I'm always thinking more about how those teachings inform the way I teach, but I think it can just be so direct, too.
Uma Cocchi 40:08
Yeah, and what I see is that people can practice those teachings, philosophical teachings, with their bodies, through their bodies, through their breath. Listening to the beautiful podcast you had with Matthew Sanford, he was talking about how sensations are those elements in life that bring the body and the mind at the same time as quote, main actors, you know, in the practice. And I can see how the philosophical teachings get into the body, can be expressed through the movement, through the body, through the sensations. The sensation changes.
Jivana Heyman 41:03
That's beautiful. Thank you, Uma. (Thank you!) Thanks for being here and talking with me and for all you do. It really means a lot to me. All right.
Uma Cocchi 41:14
Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye.
Jivana Heyman 41:25
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Jivana Heyman 42:25
Hey, Deanna!
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:26
Hello, Jivana. How's it going?
Jivana Heyman 42:29
Good. How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:30
I'm good. (Yeah?) Yeah, just listened to this great episode you had with Uma.
Jivana Heyman 42:36
Yeah. Oh my God, I love Uma so much. Thank you, Uma, for being on the podcast! That was really fun to talk to her. I've known her for so long. She mentioned the year that we met, but it was early on in my international teaching when I started to teach on the road. It was fun to meet her and then have her lead my training, which she still does. She still leads it for me, she's teaching it in London soon, like, mid August, and then she also leads it in Italian online, which is pretty incredible, to lead the whole thing in Italian. And I get to go in as a guest, sometimes, when she's doing that. I go online, I get to meet all the Italian teachers and try to follow what they're saying, which is very hard.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:24
Does she translate what you're saying?
Jivana Heyman 43:26
Yes, she does, and she translates both ways. She translates for me and then for them, but a lot of them speak English, usually, and my Italian isn't that good. I can barely follow, like I just have a few words here and there. I used to speak French almost fluently, but it's been so long and there's a lot of overlap, you know, with French and Italian, so a lot of the words are similar. Anyway, but yeah, she's great. What did you like about that episode? What stood out to you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:55
There was so much. First of all, I really loved hearing Uma speak because, you know, she usually teaches our live trainings, and so I don't get the honor of listening to her recording of her session. So that was very cool. So Uma, like, it was a joy to listen to you and your influences and what really makes you passionate about teaching. It was also interesting to hear about yoga therapy, how it relates to Accessible Yoga, how you both contrasted it. So, you know, you're a yoga therapist yourself, and so I wondered if you brought any of those influences into your trainings, when you're teaching about Accessible Yoga.
Jivana Heyman 44:35
Yeah, it is interesting. I know, I have a lot of thoughts about it. When I was starting to teach, I thought about what I did as yoga therapy, but that was, you know, in the 90s, the 1990s. And then over the course of the next couple decades, yoga therapy became more of a particular thing, like the IAYT created standards, educational standards, for what it means to be a yoga therapist, and I got to go to some of the meetings they were having. They would have meetings of schools, and I would go and represent Integral Yoga and contribute to some of those meetings. But I have to say, through that process, I felt less and less connected to yoga therapy. I mean, I still am a yoga therapist, and I occasionally tell people that, but mostly I felt kind of distant, because I felt like what they were doing was, at least at the time, and I know there's been a evolution since then, but there's so much focus on bringing yoga into healthcare, into the Western healthcare system, and that's what many of the people working in that field were trying to do in terms of yoga therapy. And that just felt, I mean, while that seems like a good idea, I just didn't like how it felt like they were, I don't know what the word is, they were trying to, like, make yoga adapt to that Western system. And that was just really unappealing to me, honestly. I mean, I taught in hospitals for many, many years in different ways, and when I went in, kind of as an official yoga therapist, it was really challenging, because they would limit what I could do. I wasn't allowed to chant. You weren't allowed to do anything that felt too religious or spiritual, and that just felt too limiting to me personally. But, you know, I think, like I said, things have evolved, and yoga therapy has, I think maybe, grown and evolved since then to be something a little more substantial. But that concerned me, and also I worry a bit about the term itself, yoga therapy. Do you know what I mean? Like, the whole like, as if I'm going to fix someone or heal them. That's where the therapy word comes in, and that feels a little uncomfortable for me and slightly against my feelings about how yoga works. Do you know what I mean?
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:00
Yeah, that's such an interesting perspective. And, yeah, that is a good point about, you know, that's appropriation to sort of just take certain things about yoga and strip away anything about the roots or the fullness of it, even if you're in like, a doctor setting or medical setting. But that's interesting, that nuance about like, 'Oh, you're going to fix someone.' Whereas, I guess I've had some yoga therapy sessions throughout the years, to me, it just felt, you and Uma, talked about this too, like, individualized. Like there was someone watching the way I walked, or the way I, you know, sat and said, okay, here. And like, how are you feeling? How's your digestive system? There was something that was so holistic about all of that. And I need to give a shout out to my yoga therapist at the time, Lisa Sack, who was incredible. But yeah, there's that individuation of it.
Jivana Heyman 47:59
Yeah, I have a yoga therapist too, Cheri Clampett, who's been just such a huge help to me. And so I do love that individual aspect of the practice. So, yeah, I think yoga therapy can be incredible. It was just more of, like, the general direction it was heading in the 90s that really felt worrisome to me, and that's what I didn't really want to be a part of. It was being so medicalized. And in a way, Accessible Yoga was kind of my response to that, to not wanting that to happen. But I also see the value in yoga therapy. It's incredible to be able to spend time with people, and it doesn't have to be one on one. You can do yoga therapy with a group too. But I think the idea of getting really well trained, yoga therapists generally have at least 1000 hours of training, which is substantial, and I feel like there's more connection with their students, or they call them clients. So as a yoga therapist, you have the scope of practice to have information, medical information available to you. Which yoga teachers really don't have the scope of practice to know how to handle people's private medical information, so that can give you some background. You can ask questions about people's medical history and kind of know what they're looking for and ask them that too. Like, why are you doing yoga? What is your goal here? And then design a practice for them, including follow up, and homework, and tracking them. And I think those are all really beautiful things that I like to do in one on ones anyway. And it's just the piece around handling medical information, I think, in particular, that yoga teachers really can't do, that, that extra training really helps with.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:49
How would you, after this conversation about yoga therapists, how would you suggest that someone goes about finding one, and what are the benefits?
Jivana Heyman 49:57
I mean, I actually think, if you can find a yoga therapist and afford a yoga therapist, you should definitely do that. Like I think all of us should try to get access to the most well trained yoga professionals we can find. And, like I said, a yoga therapist, you know, these days, at least, according to the International Association of Yoga Therapists has a minimum of 1,000 hours of training, and that's really meaningful. So I would say, definitely find the most well trained person you can to teach you and support you. But they're not always available, and it may not be financially accessible either, but I think there is huge benefit in that individual aspect of the practice. Also, if you're dealing with some particular issue, like if you have some disability or chronic illness or something that you're really challenged with and you want to address, I think a yoga therapist is really helpful. But at the same time, there's some absolutely incredible yoga teachers out there who are so knowledgeable, so experienced, and just so powerful in the way they share yoga, so I don't know if you could say that a yoga therapist is necessarily better than a yoga teacher. I think you just need to do your research and try to find the person you feel you can connect with. And also, I think if you're a student looking for a teacher, you could kind of interview them, by the way. Do you know what I mean? I know you've kind of done that recently with yoga studios, right? You've kind of been looking for the place that feels like the right fit for you. What were you looking for?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:38
That's such a good question. I think I was looking for a class that felt intentional, that brought in the fullness of yoga. It wasn't just about, you know, doing a million postures in a row for the sake of sweatiness or because the room was hot. I was looking for something that incorporated breath, meditation, acknowledgement of the roots of yoga, and also just that brought in some heart along with it. And so I found an amazing studio right nearby, Arise Brooklyn. It's just a few streets over from me, and I feel so good every time I step into the studio. The teachers are so well trained, and yeah, I leave feeling not only, like, connected to myself, but, you know, there is an emphasis on connecting to your neighbor in class, like, saying good morning back. It doesn't feel like I'm just extracting anything, it feels really relationship oriented. So I really, you know, I was glad to go through the journey and process of trying out a lot of studios.
Jivana Heyman 52:44
I mean, that's so beautiful, and the community piece is so essential. I actually think one of the benefits of yoga is the personal connections we make and the community that we build with the other students and the whole space, really. So that could be lacking in a yoga therapy setting, actually. So in a way, that's the strength of yoga teaching, and especially in a really public setting, is that there's a sense of belonging and community that so many of us are lacking, you know, in our lives. So it's not like yoga therapy or yoga teaching, that one is better than the other. But also, you know, Uma talked about yoga therapy and the work she's done, the research she's done on irritable bowel disease and other digestive disorders, and how the benefits of a yoga practice. I was just so impressed with that. And so that's another benefit of yoga therapy, is that potential of really working on specific conditions like that and doing research the way that a lot of yoga therapists do. And I've been following Uma's work for a while, and it's so amazing what she's done, and I hope it gets out there. It's just such a beautiful message. It was really intriguing, especially about the timing. Did you hear that part?
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:57
This was like a piece of Malcolm Gladwell-like lore that should be repeated about exactly how many sessions people begin benefiting from the practice. Do you want to talk about that?
Jivana Heyman 54:09
Yeah, I think it was, was it seven or eight? After the seventh or eighth session, people had a different...like, their symptoms reduced greatly. I thought it was interesting that it took that long, to be honest. I thought maybe, maybe it would be right away, like, from the first session. I don't know, but, and it's interesting that there was a consistency about that. You know, I think it's maybe just hard to be new at something too, and it can be kind of awkward to learn yoga, and then maybe after seven or eight times of practicing, you start to think, oh, I get this? And you can maybe go deeper and it has maybe a stronger impact. I don't know. What do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:50
It's also possible that, you know, if you're talking about symptom relief, that may take a while, yoga often addresses kind of like the conditions that create certain symptoms. So if you're responding less to the activation of, oh gosh, this pain is coming on, and then you're kind of, like adding to it by the stress around it, it's possible that those little nuanced, you know, I guess I would say, like, improvements to your well being, emotional life, like the way you're relating to things, maybe you know that happens pretty immediately.
Jivana Heyman 55:24
Yeah. I mean, the other issue is that I see in this research, not just for Uma, but in yoga research, is that there isn't a consistent practice that's being used. There isn't like a standard in terms of what are we doing when we say we're doing yoga for such and such condition. So I think that's where yoga research, and some of that, that research component of yoga therapy, is kind of struggling. My friend Stephanie Moonaz has been kind of at the forefront of some of that work, trying to standardize what these programs are that people are doing. Like, I know Uma's, you know, in the research, it describes what they do, and hers is a pretty traditional hatha yoga series. But other research might have a different set of practices, right? And so those practices could have a different result. And so that's another challenge, is regarding the whole field of yoga research. We'll have to have more conversations about that, maybe in future episodes.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:25
Yeah, I'd love that.
Jivana Heyman 56:26
Yeah, me too. Well, Jivana, we sort of recorded these back to back, and since our last conversation, we don't have any questions. So this is a prompt for our listeners out there. If you have feedback, follow-up questions, a comment for Jivana, please send them in. You can type them out, or you can actually leave us a voicemail, which is pretty cool, because that we can hear your voice.
Jivana Heyman 56:48
Yes, please. That'd be awesome. I love to hear from our listeners. Makes me so happy!
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:55
But I have a question. So on Friday, this week, you are hosting a workshop. It's a two part workshop on inversions, and this week you're sharing an inversion based Accessible Yoga practice. And so, I want to talk about and unpack inversions just a little bit. I know you'll be doing this more in this series. And everyone, you can actually sign up for this for free, we'll put the link in the shownotes. But you know, I think that potentially, you know, we hear about inversions, or, 'Oh, we're going to do an inversion practice today,' and there's an aversion to it, because it feels automatically like it's going to be completely out of our wheelhouse. And so I'm wondering, you know, what actually is an inversion? Is there a point to inversions? What are the benefits? And, you know, do you actually teach inversions in your classes?
Jivana Heyman 57:48
Yeah, I think people do have an aversion to inversions. So thank you for that. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, obviously I'll go into it in detail in the workshop, so how can I not go too far down there? I'll just say, you know, traditionally, an inversion is where the head and the heart change relationship, right? The head is below the heart. But you know, I think that there are some gentle inversions where the head and the heart are almost level with each other. And also I think there's an opportunity to invert parts of the body, like the legs or lower body, or inverting the arms, that can make it more accessible. So I think I like to just expand the definition of inversion. And I should say there's a reason for that, which is that I think inversions have tremendous benefit. I mean, in the history of yoga, you can see that inversions have always been really primary and an essential part of hatha yoga practice. And there's good reason for that. Some of them are quite esoteric. Sometimes it has to do with, like, the nectar of mortality. I mean, it's like, there's like a whole thing, like a whole place, we could go there, but just on the physical level, there's a lot of benefit to turning your body upside down. But, with a lot of precautions, there's also a lot of contraindications.
Jivana Heyman 59:14
And so I think there's a balance that we need to find in Accessible Yoga, which is, how can we offer people some of the benefits of inversions without any of the potential harm or dangers. And one of the things, just to maybe simplify this, because that's like the whole workshop, but one of the things that I think is worth mentioning is that, interestingly enough, a lot of it has to do with the way you come in and out of the pose. And I say that because one of the big contraindications for full inversions is uncontrolled high blood pressure, which is incredibly common, right? Many people have high blood pressure, and blood pressure regulation is a challenge in a lot of yoga, but full inversions or something to avoid, and that's because when you make a huge effort, like when you, I would say, even strain. If you're straining to come into a pose, like into a full inversion, that's the danger zone for high blood pressure. And that's the challenge with inversions and Accessible Yoga, is that actually being inverted itself may not be bad, it could actually be beneficial for your blood pressure. One of the benefits of most inversions, if they're held comfortably, is that they reduce blood pressure, but it's the straining to come in or out of it that can raise your blood pressure. Does that make sense? Do you see where I'm going?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:50
Yeah, it does make sense, absolutely.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:52
So I think that's where, it's the straining. Or, I don't know if that's the best word. It's the intense effort that you make to really push into an inversion, or really any practice, that is contraindicated for high blood pressure. So being upside-down could be okay for many people with high blood pressure. And for a long time, I worked with people who have advanced heart disease, and I can tell a story about that, maybe in the workshop, but basically, my students wanted to be inverted, because it actually rests the heart and lowers blood pressure. And I just found that to be kind of ironic. When here we're saying...is it ironic or paradoxical? That, on the one hand, we're saying, don't do these poses, they're contraindicated, and that's actually the thing they wanted to do the most. It was the most calming and relaxing thing. So I really worked hard to try to find comfortable and safer versions, which is really just about adapting, right? So, yeah, what do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:04
Well, thank you so much for sharing that, because I used to do a lot of inversions, and, you know, I really loved them, because it was a time where my physical body was all working together, you know, I felt like I've been disembodied my entire life. And then as I started doing inversions, it was like, 'Oh, I really understand what it means to, like, be in my entire body at once.' If that makes any sense.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:31
I love that. That's beautiful.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:33
It felt really powerful. And then, of course, came the injury, right? And the neck pain and all of that.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:41
From an inversion? Was it from an inversion?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:44
Probably from a bunch of things, from bad posture to, you know, maybe over exerting in asana, that sort of thing. So, yeah, I'm sure that contributed. And then, like, after that, I just, like, stopped doing them all together. And so I'm maybe at a point where I'm like, no, it's good to, like, integrate them back in. It doesn't have to be as extreme. But like, you know, I think it's beneficial to get back at it. There was a reason it felt very good.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:12
Yeah, I just want to, like, emphasize what you said about posture and maybe straining. There's a lot of contraindications for inversions, but one of them is that if you're not used to having pressure or weight on your head or your neck, and if it's something you haven't done most of your life, you know, and you're coming in as an adult, and you're starting to do that, it can be too much. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like your neck and your head may not be prepared to handle the weight of the body, if you're doing something like a Headstand or Shoulder Stand, and you really need to learn how to use the arms and the arm and shoulder strength, or you're putting your neck in danger. And so I think that's another whole reason that I think full inversions can be a little dangerous. And I don't want to scare people away, like I'm very conscious in my teaching that if we over emphasize the dangers that we're putting negative ideas out into the world. At the same time, you know, ahimsa is number one, so I think safety is first. And I just know too many people who've had that, like you just shared, an injury that was maybe related to a inversion. And I just want people to find a safe and comfortable way to get that experience that you described so beautifully, of like, being in your body and being embodied. So amazing. And you can do that, there are ways to do inversions that, I think, offer that without potential danger, and they're simple, you know, more gentle versions.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:04:41
Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to that. And also I just wonder, like, you know, maybe that's somewhere, like, not that you would need a yoga therapist just because you want to invert, but it's just someone who can really see your body and understand where you might need to, like, build strength, where you might need to build a little bit more flexibility. And then everything else that comes along with it, breathing, awareness, all of the things.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:04
Yeah, strengthening. I mean, I think that's a good point. I think having one on one attention can really help if you want to work towards a certain kind of pose, and if you want to really work on building strength like that, to come into a full inversion, and it's something you haven't done before, I think you could potentially get it from a yoga teacher too. I don't know if it needs to be a yoga therapist, but you'd need to find someone who you really you trust, to work with and can see you. It's hard in a group setting, when we do these kind of intense physical practices, I think I worry a little bit that they may not always be safe, because the teacher can't give that kind of personalized attention. And that's true in yoga therapy too, there's group yoga therapy that happens, and the same thing applies. So I think the key for me there, again, is to just go back to what is the purpose of the practice. And as you mentioned earlier, like, when you found the studio you liked that studio taught the fullness of yoga, and that's reminding people that they're okay, you know, they're full and fine to begin with, and that achieving some asana isn't going to change that. It's not going to change you or make you into something else. Yoga is just about returning to yourself, and I think that can be done without intense competition or strain. But given that, I'm also in the process of training for a triathlon, so I have to be honest that I'm kind of into competition and pushing myself at the moment, but not necessarily in the context of asana. I just think that they can be incredibly intense. But asana has taught me that. Asana has taught me how to be in my body, how to work on something, to take on a challenge and be patient with my body and give it time to get there. So it's all connected.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:31
It's all connected. And although yoga isn't just asana, asana is there to teach us quite a bit.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:05
Yeah, right. I mean, that's the thing about asana, that kind of, I don't know, like, some of the messaging, I think recently, when we talk about the fullness of yoga, I think sometimes it's creating a dichotomy, or, like, making it seem like asana is not important. And I just don't think that's true. It's not like we're saying asana doesn't matter, asana is one of the main things that makes yoga so powerful. It's such an amazing practice that I think is lacking in a lot of other spiritual paths, right? This incredible amount of knowledge and awareness around the body, and how to be in the body and make it strong and flexible, so that you can have a full life, and so that you can work with your mind and have a meditative experience. But I think it's just remembering that asana exists in context, in the context of the fullness of yoga, not separate. Do you know what I mean?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:07
Mmm hmm, that's beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 1:08:11
Thanks. All right. Well, thanks Deanna, and thanks everyone for being here and for listening. Please do send any questions or comments that you have. I'd love to hear from you. I love when you leave messages. I love getting those. And thanks to Uma, also, what a great conversation. And I'm just grateful to Uma for all the work she's doing and sharing Accessible Yoga, especially in Italy. And hello to all of Uma's students in Italy. Ciao! (Ciao!) Thanks, Deanna, all right, see you next time.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:45
See you next time, everyone. (Bye.)
