Jivana Heyman 0:36
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Chumash land, known today as Santa Barbara, California, and I'm very excited to share this episode with you. My conversation with Michelle Cassandra Johnson, who is such a great teacher and leader in the yoga world. She's been a friend of mine for a while, and I love talking to her so much. And I think what I love the most about Michelle is just the thought that goes into her work in terms of considering all angles and recognizing the impact the yoga teachings can have on us today as contemporary practitioners. You know, her work is so much about the application of these teachings, which is something I'm really, really interested in myself. I don't think I'm so much of an academic. I'm really interested in, how do we practice, right? How do we practice yoga now? And also in terms of the way we engage with the world, where do we fit, and how do we repair relationships and address challenges? She just does all that so well. In fact, I think her first book, Skill in Action should be required reading for all yoga teachers, all yoga practitioners. It's just so brilliant, and so many of other books as well. I mean, she's written so many, including her latest book, The Wisdom of the Hive, which is really powerful, and I would really recommend you get that. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you spending your time listening to this podcast, it means a lot to me. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are about this episode, or any of them. You can leave me a message, and you can stay after for a conversation I have with Deanna about Michelle's work and about the role of a yoga teacher, which is something we talk about today. So here's my conversation with Michelle Cassandra Johnson.
Jivana Heyman 2:44
I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Offering Tree, for making life easier for yoga teachers, they have an all in one platform for your website, scheduling and email marketing. Plus they're dedicated to helping you grow. You can join one of their upcoming free webinars. There's one on June 27th where you'll learn strategies for driving growth, building community and boosting sales. And on July 16th, you'll discover quote, "Why you're not selling out your classes and what to do about it," unquote. That sounds like a good one. You can head over to the shownotes to register, and also in the shownotes, you'll find a discount for Accessible Yoga Podcast listeners and a free trial at Offering Tree. So thanks, Offering Tree, for all you do for yoga teachers.
Jivana Heyman 3:52
Hey, hi everyone, and welcome to our special guest, Michelle Cassandra Johnson. Hi, Michelle!
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 3:58
Hi, Jivana, thanks for inviting me to be part of this.
Jivana Heyman 4:02
Thank you so much for being here. I love talking to you. So nice to be with you again. Did you want to introduce yourself a little bit, because I didn't, I mean, I introduced you already, but...
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 4:13
I'll say the intro for now. Yeah. My name is Michelle Cassandra Johnson, as you said. My pronouns are she and her and I live on the ancestral land of the Catawba, Cheraw, Tutelo, Saponi, Occaneechi, and many other tribes in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. And it's sunny today. The peonies are in full bloom, and I could smell them when I was sitting on my screen porch. The rose bushes are in full bloom, and these things are bringing me some joy. Just things blooming. The pollen is also raining from the sky, that is not bringing joy, but the flowers blooming, totally. So much joy. So happy to be here.
Jivana Heyman 4:59
That's actually been a theme in this podcast, is gardening, actually, because, I used to be a professional gardener, like when I was, you know, trying to make a living. I couldn't make enough money teaching yoga. So for many, many years, they both were happening at the same time. And I still garden all the time. And so I keep bringing that up too. So I love that you mentioned it right away. It's also happening here, like in Santa Barbara, the roses are happening. That makes me very excited. It's almost too much, honestly, like, when they all finally bloom. It's just like, I don't know, overwhelming, it's like, wow. Just nature just blows me away.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 5:41
Me too, for sure,
Jivana Heyman 5:44
It's amazing, and also, you're the author of a million books.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 5:51
A few books. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 5:53
I've lost track. Honestly, like, no, what? Five?
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 5:58
Five are out. My sixth is about to come out May 20th.
Jivana Heyman 6:03
Do you even know their names of all of them?
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 6:08
I do know the names of my books! Most of your listeners might know about Skill in Action, because that was my first book. And then since then, there have been many others about healing and yoga philosophy, and this one that's coming out on May 20th, World Bee Day is called The Wisdom of the Hive, and it is about the hive, and lessons we can learn from the honeybees about community and collective care.
Jivana Heyman 6:31
That's so exciting. I've been reading your other last book, The Illuminating Our True Nature, that was the one before, right? (Yes, right.) Which is, you know, an examination or exploration of the kleshas. I really enjoyed it. I mean, you have such a great writing style. I mean, and I write a lot, so I'm, like, so conscious of, like, when people...and I feel very close to you in the way, like that what you're trying to do, I feel like I'm also trying to do, like, with the teachings, to make them accessible, but to share in a personal way. And I was really struck in that book by something you do, which I don't know if you realize it, but you so definitely switch from third person to first person back and forth the whole time. It's a thing that I really think about so much in my writing, because I think a lot of spiritual books are written in that third person, like, 'we'. Just like, very like, kind of, what's the word? I don't know, making like, these sweeping statements without the other piece. And that feels a little bit like, I know everything, and I'm telling you what to think. You know, when it's all in the third person, it's like, 'We do this, we do that. We should do this, we should do that.' But I feel like every time you make almost any statement, you then just give a like personal...you go right back to the first person, and you give, like, a story or a teaching that you found and you reveal something about yourself, and it's just very touching to me. So I don't know if that was conscious, or you kind of just, it's your way, maybe.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 8:13
Thank you for sharing your experience of my writing, and it is my style now, and I was not aware of that style, I wouldn't say, until maybe We Heal Together. I thought, I have a story for all of these things, right? And it's important for me to make the teachings accessible and applicable, and to say, here's how I'm thinking about this or working with it. How are you thinking about it? Right? It's very much the way I teach when I'm working with people, right, one to one or in person or in groups. This like, here's an application of the teaching, and I want you to reflect on it too and think about how it lands for you and how it's alive for you, or questions it raises for you. So it's definitely my style now. I claim what you just shared, and I wasn't aware of it, because also, when I write, I'm channeling a lot, you know, I'm allowing information to move through me, and often the stories go places that I'm not even...like, I've written a book proposal, and then the story I end up sharing is something different than what's in that, and that's just part of the writing process and creative process, which I know you understand, because you're in it a lot of the time.
Jivana Heyman 9:31
Yes, it's challenging. Anyway, I just wanted to share that because I feel like it's important, because I think there's a shift in the way that, at least yoga is being shared these days, that it's not always top down anymore. Even if you look traditionally at the guru disciple relationship, or the modern kind of celebrity teacher thing, I feel like we're trying to get away from that, and I think I see that in your teaching, is what I'm saying.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 10:06
Yeah, thank you sharing that, because I'm not on the path to be a celebrity, right? Like, that's not what I'm up to. I want us to be free, and I'm in my body doing the things I know how to do to help that happen the best way I know how, in my little corner of the world, right? This is how I think about it. That's based in service, too, and what I'm called to do, and that I'm here to do something that's about more than just me, right? It's rooted in the collective.
Jivana Heyman 10:41
Yeah, and that's been a theme, actually, in the podcast too, which is around, like, the role of teacher. And it's something actually, in my last book, The Teacher's Guide to Accessible Yoga, I interviewed you for that, and you talked about humility. That was the theme of your, like, sharing for that. In fact, there's a podcast episode I can link to in the show notes for this one, we're interviewing you for that book. Yeah, that was kind of our conversation, is the role of the teacher. So I think this is a theme in our conversations. (It must be!) Yeah, but I love that humility and the thing that really stands out for me now, is that it saves us. Like, service is protective of us. It's not only like, it's not like doing good, you know what I mean? Like, there's this idea of volunteerism or like, doing good work, but it actually protects us from getting lost in the illusion of being the master, of being the guru, that is such a trap.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 11:46
Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about this the other day because I've been watching, well only on the airplane because I don't have HBO Max. I was watching Breath of Fire about Yogi Bhajan and Kundalini yoga, and one of the gurus. And I thought, I mean, I thought about this before, but in watching that, I have not finished the series, it is fascinating to me because it is about guruship, but it's also about, like cult-ish, I would say, behavior and what sort of draws us to someone, and how one can get lost in a way and also be positioned as a leader. So I'm fascinated by these things, because my brain is not set up that like, I'm sure I could end up in some mess that I didn't need to be in. I'm sure I have at some point. And the moment I figure out I'm not supposed to be there, I'm out. Like, you know, where someone's positioning themselves as, like, the all knowing, it just doesn't resonate with me. And so it makes me think about, like, psychologically, what happens and the conditions in place, and I know many people talk about this, that make it so, that people lose themselves, you know, in this. And yes, the point of yoga is to dissolve the ego. I understand this, but like, we're also beings, right, in these bodies with something to do. And I think when we feel directionless, or when I've felt that, I'm much more susceptible to be led and led in ways that are not actually about service, right? They're not about the collective. They're about upholding one person who said, I am the guru. I am the only. I am the...and that has never sat well with me. So what you just said made me think a lot about that. And as I think about my own teaching, right, I don't want to be on a pedestal. I know some things, I think, until I don't. Right? Like, I'm open to learning, and I want to cultivate that type of environment and space with others, alongside others.
Jivana Heyman 13:51
Love that, but I do think people do really look up to you. I mean, even in this podcast, in the short amount of interviews I've done, your name has come up a couple of times. So in the interview I just did with Tristan Katz, they just talked about you, like, the whole time. So I'm just saying, like, you may not see yourself that way, but I think a lot of people do kind of put you up on a pedestal. I'm just gonna say, so I don't know how you...
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 14:18
Yeah, I mean, I look up to leaders too. It's more that when someone wants me to dissolve myself so much, right? It's like, it's that kind of energy. And whenever I've, like, been in a Skill in Action training, or trained mentors to teach Skill in Action workshops, I've said, here's the curriculum, here's how I teach. You're you. Or led a teacher training. How do you want to teach? I think there's a balance we have to strike, particularly if we call ourselves teachers. People are coming to us for knowledge and information, and we're often in that position because we do have a particular way of looking at things, or some wisdom to offer. Or a different way that resonates with folks. We need to be responsible in that role too, because of how much I think abuse can happen and how much people can lose themselves. And I just think we need to be in integrity, which is such a big value for me. And so part of that is, yes, people, I've put things out in the world that have inspired people, and that has been on purpose and rooted in my purpose. And, I also believe everyone has a purpose, right? And everyone has work that they need to do, and I honor what that is, even as they're learning from me, right? I'm also learning from them too. So I just think we need to be mindful.
Jivana Heyman 15:42
I just have another question about it, and then I don't know, I don't want to harp on it, but just, do you ever feel, what's the word, like, afraid of your own power? Like of the impact you have and like, your potential? Do you know what I'm saying? Does it ever feel overwhelming to you? I don't know what word to use. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 16:04
You're not. It's a great question. It's an interesting question. You know, I'm a Leo. It makes me think about Leos and the imbalance of what can happen, and it doesn't just have to be about astrology. But, you know, Leo's can be generous and can be, like, caring, really practice collective care and integrity is really important to Leo's. And we can also be wrapped up in the ego. And I know that. And so I know enough about that, that I don't want to do that. Like, I want to practice not being wrapped up in that, and like, you know, thinking of myself as an individual, as if I'm not in relationship with others, which most of my writing is about how we're in relationship with everything. So there's some practice and work and awareness and probably the other parts of my chart that balance out the imbalance that can happen, not just because of astrology, but our conditioning and what we've internalized about who we are and our lived experiences and how we're moving through the world. And so I'm not afraid of my power, because I think I have practices that keep me in check, and I have people who keep me in check too, right? And I hear myself. I can witness when I'm like, I want that thing that they have. Why are they famous? I want, you know, like, you can get into that. And I'm like, that's gross, Michelle, stop it. You know, when I hear myself, I'm like, do you want to put your attention there? Probably not, you have other things to do. That's very human to do too, right? It's not just about being a Leo. I spent a lot of time, though, thinking about power and positionality. And I mean, a lot of this is because I'm in a Black body in this culture, and how do I take up space and also, as I said, keep my ego in check, right? I'm navigating many different things around that, based on lived experience and identity. So I'm not afraid of my power. I also have an infinite, I mean, well, my soul does, but I have a finite amount of time to do what it is that I feel like I'm here to do. So I don't want to get distracted. I would say that drives me. You know, the way that I am is an awareness that I'm here for a limited amount of time, and I really want to focus on what's important.
Jivana Heyman 18:21
Well, I can feel that in your writing, just, well, the amount of writing you're doing, I mean to me, that feels like you have something to say, you're going to say it. Like, you're not holding back. And I felt that way with my books, in a way too, like I just need to get this out there. I just need, you know, I feel driven to do that. This last book is the one I'm working on now is taking so much longer than the previous ones. It's like, I'm really questioning it more. I don't know, and life has gotten the way. You know, it's been a challenging year for me. So this book is coming differently for me. It's making me work. It's making me work harder.
Jivana Heyman 18:21
They do that sometimes. They're like, this is the medicine for now. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 18:56
Yeah. But I appreciate you. I appreciate you sharing that. It's interesting. I so. So one of the things I've been asking all my guests is to kind of reflect back on their journey. This podcast is a series of celebrating my 30th anniversary of teaching and teaching yoga. And so I'm just wondering, like, if you're willing to share any story or stories with us. The question I've been asking is like, what's the story, teaching, or practice from your past that continues to inspire you as you move forward on your path of yoga? Is there anything that comes to mind for you?
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 19:45
There are two teachings. I mean, many, but two that are like right here, and one is related to a question people ask me a lot, and it's happened a lot with the body of work, Skill in Action, which is connected to all the other things I've created. People ask about, you know, 'how do you convince people?', this is language people used. Or, 'the people who need to be in the room aren't actually in the room.' Or 'what do you do when people tell you what you're saying isn't true? They don't believe it. They don't align.' And the teaching that comes to me every time is one that Lama Rod Owens shared in a teacher training that I was leading, and Lama Rod was a guest faculty in it, and he said, I've heard him say that probably 100 times since then. He's like, "Not everybody is going to go with you. Everybody's not coming." And what he meant is like, yes, we can be invested in collective liberation, and yet people are going to opt in or out. They're going to decide, yes, I want to be part of this, or no, I don't. It reminds me of a teaching from doing racial equity work for many years, where I tell organizational leaders, at some point people are going to have to decide if they want to align with the way that the culture is shifting in this organization or not. And I always go back to that, him saying that, because I think it struck me and it struck the group, just from his perspective and lineage of like, some people are going to get left, not I'm going to leave them. Some people are going to choose, right, and I appreciate it, because it points to me, where do I put my energy? I can extend compassion and practice metta meditation, loving kindness, and connect with people who have different values. And, I often come back to this question of where's my circle of influence? Who's alongside me now, and who is positioned to come along? Not that I'm deciding where we're going, right? We're deciding together. So that's a teaching that I come back to a lot and offer.
Jivana Heyman 22:08
I love that. I I think about that a lot, actually. I hadn't thought of it exactly like that. Because with Accessible Yoga, there's often this feeling like I have to serve everyone, and that's a statement I make sometimes, to talk about everyone, and, like, making sure everyone is served and able to practice and all that. And I'm dedicated to that idea. At the same time, I'm very conscious, just from having taught so long that not everyone wants it, not everyone wants to do yoga or wants to practice with me, or the way I teach. And that's fine. And so I think it's sometimes hard when I'm training people, for them to recognize it's like, you need to prepare as if you're the teacher for everyone, but you're not the teacher for everyone. (So good.) Yeah. And it's hard to sometimes see those two things together, and it's like, if someone walks out of class, I've done my best. You know, at the same time, sometimes I think people, some people, default to that, like they don't even try, like they don't even try to include and welcome people. (Absolutely.) That's painful. So I feel like we have to make that effort. You know, there's an invitation, but the invitation doesn't mean that I've changed myself. I liked how you said that, like, not everyone's going to join, or Lama Rod's saying. The invitation is you can join me and do I'm doing what I'm doing. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not gonna for you, but you can join me if you want. This is what I have to share. And if not, that's okay. Yeah.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 23:35
Yeah, I feel you on that. And I have often said I'm not everyone's teacher, and I know that. Like, people get to choose, and I'm okay with that. I'm clear about it, and I am okay with that. That's just fine. We have many different teachers and people. And you know, it's like, people can find their person, I may not be it. And I'm very clear about what I'm up to. And there are many people who are like, yes, I'm up to that too. How are you doing it? Here's what I'm doing. Great.
Jivana Heyman 24:09
Yeah, it's interesting. It's just something that, again, comes up so much in my world, and I just feel like it's a subtle thing to be strong and have clear boundaries and be loving too. And so it's like that balance, yeah. (Yeah, that's real.) Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. It's amazing.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 24:32
Yeah. What you just said, reminds me of the thing that just came up last night. I went to bed very angry and frustrated and just tired, and I had a dream about teaching loving kindness meditation and Locust Pose. And my friend was in it, who taught me how to play harmonium many years ago and chant to the gods and goddesses. So she was like a guide in the dream. And I went in to teach an asana and meditation class in person in Winston today that I teach every Wednesday. And this softening and heart opening and metta became the theme, because during dream time, that's the message that came through. And I hadn't planned to talk about this with the class. I mean, I don't tend to give long Dharma talks in that space. It's a 60 minute class. They're lovely. It's a lovely community. And I invited them to find a Supported Bridge or heart opener of some sort at the beginning of class, and told them, you know, how I had gone to bed angry and frustrated, and how my dreams were like, 'and go back to the heart. Your true nature is your heart, Michelle.' I said that I was reminded of that, that my heart really is. And I mean, like the heart as all it can be, right? It's an organ, and it's a portal, and it's a passageway, and it's something that can open, and it's something that feels broken, and it's something that expands, something that can soften me. It's something that can allow me to be in relationship with folks in deep compassion. It's something that helps me set boundaries, as well, in a loving, direct way. And so I was reminded of this teaching of the power of the heart and all that it does for us, and how that's at the root of, like, sacred activism for me and spiritual teaching for me. And what do we do to remember that? Even as I'm in this human body, feeling the emotions I'm feeling, you know, like, how do I come back to the heart? And so there are many teachings connected to that for me. And it just was such a direct transmission during dream time of like, go back, your heart's who you are, Michelle. So be that, be that, remember that. It was just medicinal. It was so beautiful. And so I taught this, this class, and at the end, two people in the class were like, that was so beautiful. They were just talking to me as I was leaving, and I said, it felt really good for me too. It's exactly what I needed. Like, sometimes we teach exactly what we need, right? More often than not, I find. And this, I could really feel, the class wasn't for me, and yet I was part of it, and it was and they felt it. So I just offer that, the heart teaching like, what brings us back to the heart?
Jivana Heyman 27:32
Wow, that's so beautiful. I want a dream like that!
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 27:35
Right?
Jivana Heyman 27:35
My dreams just are so scattered. Actually, I think in the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali even talks about, you can, you know, things you can meditate on, and one of them is like a dream, like some beautiful experience we've had in a dream that could be a meditation focus. Like, that's what you're doing. Was that you're going to share with us? Because you said there were two things.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 28:00
That was the second thing, was the heart and the heart's teaching, and how much yoga is about that. So that was the second one.
Jivana Heyman 28:06
That's so amazing. I just didn't wanna miss any teaching from you.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 28:09
Yeah, there's more. But that's that feels, yeah, just so present for me right now.
Jivana Heyman 28:15
The students are so lucky they get to be with you in person. Like, I'm just still blown away that you are teaching in person, live classes each week. And like, wow, why can't I be there? Like, that sounds amazing.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 28:24
You can't be there in person, but we stream it, so there are people who join me from like all over as I teach the folks who are in person. And I love it.
Jivana Heyman 28:35
Can you share a link? (I will.) Because I mean, I feel like people will want to join you, including me. So, yeah, that's amazing. I'm always touched by you and your teaching.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 28:51
Thank you. Thank you. Same here, with you, and I love our connection and the conversations we have and the depth that comes through in a short amount of time, and all that you do and what you offer, and your way of being and and the way you are of service. your life is. So yeah, grateful to know you.
Jivana Heyman 29:17
That's so sweet. Is there anything else you want to share any other feelings? Art?
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 29:25
Well, we mentioned the sixth book, The Wisdom of the Hive, that's coming out on May 20th, and it's not about beekeeping, meaning it's not a like, 'how do I attend bees?' It really is, what do we learn about community? And it is, I would say, so informed by yoga and yoga philosophy and practice, because it is, I mean, bees are super organisms, so an individual bee doesn't think of themselves as an individual. They think of themselves as an extension of the hive, which, to me, feels like a yogic practice in teaching related to our oneness and interconnectedness, and the role that they play in the hive. And the book includes a lot of different practices, meditations and journaling, prompts and poems. I wrote 18 poems for it, which I hadn't done before. So they're like spells and meditations too. And I co wrote it with my best friend. So I'm excited about it, and would love for folks to buy it and work with it, and let it work with them, and share it with their communities, pollinating in that way, it feels really special. And it's number six, so it's the hexagon, you know, it feels like right timing. Um, those are the shapes the bees build and store everything in.
Jivana Heyman 30:54
Oh yes, that's the shape they build! Oh my gosh.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 30:56
So it feels synchronous that it happened in this way, in this order.
Jivana Heyman 30:59
So it's like, not a full circle, it's like a full hexagon moment.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 31:03
It is a full hexagon moment. Although hexagons start as circles, and then they turn them in to hexagons. They stretch, they heat the wax up a little once they've created all their circles, and then they make hexagons. Sacred Geometry.
Jivana Heyman 31:18
They're pushing in from the sides to make flatter edges? Oh, because when the other circles, when the circles come together, that's what creates that shape, I think. (Yeah.) I see, wow, that's beautiful.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 31:32
So much magic. So, yeah, there's a lot in there.
Jivana Heyman 31:36
By the time this episode comes out, it'll definitely be available. So people can order the book. It'll be available, they can read it, and I'm excited to read it. We'll have a link in the shownotes, as well. Do you have anything going along with it? Is there like a...
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 31:53
Yeah. There's a book club that will start in late, late June. Book club. And then there are, like, online things and in person things, launches that are on my website. Most of them are listed. We're adding some, but many of them are listed to get us through summertime.
Jivana Heyman 32:11
This is probably coming out in July. I don't know, but I think we're probably in July. And yeah, well, hopefully people can connect with you about that. I just, I love the idea, just going back to what you just said about how the bees think, I just, I love that you know, like that you know how they think, but it's just that they don't perceive themselves as individuals. I thought that was really interesting. And you wonder about that around the collective, you know, like the biggest challenge, and maybe what yoga is for, right? Like, that our practice is about not overcoming the ego, but, like, trying to get our ego to be a tool, not an obstacle for our lives. And yet, if you look around, it feels like so many of the problems in the world have to do with that -- egos that have taken over.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 33:06
Yeah, absolutely, the real imbalance that is happening, yeah, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 33:15
It's like the ego, right? So anyway, I love that teaching. That's so exciting. Is there another book? So are you working on a seventh already?
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 33:26
I am. The manuscript's due on August 1st. (No way. Oh, my God.) It is. That one will not be out until the fall of 2026 and it is all about protection practices, meaning protecting our energy, and the many ways that we can do that, not to separate from others, but because of the big work we're all doing, right? It's like, in response to what we're holding, we need to be held. And what are our practices that hold us? And so there are spells in there, curios. And I'm so excited. And how do we engage the elements and ancestors and animals and like, it's been so fun to write. It is the witchiest book I've ever written, and it's so fun to write it. But it's like, there's a purpose to this. If we're gonna hold this moment, what are we doing to come back to center and really protect this vessel, this energy.
Jivana Heyman 34:24
Wow. That goes back to what we started talking about earlier around like, being in the role of teacher. How do you elevate yourself or put yourself down honestly, but like, and how do you how do you embrace your power? You know, in a way, that's not harmful to you. Oh my God, I'm so excited. That's awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for being here and talking. Thank you, I really appreciate it.
Michelle Cassandra Johnson 34:52
Yeah, thank you. And so glad to be in community with you, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 34:56
Thanks, you too. All right, talk to you soon.
Jivana Heyman 35:07
In some of my recent teacher trainings, people have been asking me if I think that yoga teachers need to have liability insurance, and I always answer yes, very strongly, because I think it's important that we protect ourselves. It also gives me a chance to recommend beYogi Insurance, which is the company I've used for years, and also a sponsor of our podcast. So thank you beYogi for giving me peace of mind. I appreciate the fact that you cover live classes, both in person and online, and also pre recorded content. It really helps. And I'm not the only one who likes them. I know they have over 1,300 five star reviews. That's pretty amazing. So if you're looking for insurance, check out the link in our shownotes, there's a discount for you with beYogi Insurance.
Jivana Heyman 35:59
Hey, welcome back, everyone. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:02
Hello, Jivana, how are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:05
I'm pretty good, a little tired today, honestly, but mostly good. How about you? How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:11
I'm good. I'm good. I'm looking at my remote garden right now outside of Chicago and I'm excited, it's blossoming.
Jivana Heyman 36:19
That's exciting. Yeah, that's the best time in a garden. It's so amazing. Actually, it's funny here in Santa Barbara, it's almost like that's past, like the initial burst of spring, and now it's kind of getting into the warmer summer time. In my garden, something is already not blooming anymore, but vegetables, I have my first artichoke, and zucchini and tomatoes, well, they haven't really started. But anyway, lots of things.
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:52
It's so exciting to have an artichoke that you grew yourself.
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:55
It's just one, it's like a baby artichoke. So there's literally one artichoke.
Deanna Michalopoulos 36:55
I'm currently googling what artichokes look like when are little, it's my favorite thing to see.
Jivana Heyman 36:56
I'll send you a picture, and actually, I'm going to let it bloom. Because what's amazing, the artichoke is a flower bud, and it's a beautiful flower, just the most intense bluish purple color. So I'm excited to let this one flower, not I'm not going to eat it. I'll send you a picture when it's bloom.
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:19
Oh my gosh, it's beautiful. Everyone needs to Google this right now, because it's gorgeous shade of purple, indigo.
Jivana Heyman 37:28
Isn't it? It is an amazing color. It's like, you can't believe that's like, comes from a plant. Yeah, so wasn't that a great episode with Michelle?
Deanna Michalopoulos 37:42
Yes, I just finished listening to it, and it's always a joy to hear Michelle Cassandra Johnson in conversation. And I was so excited to hear you two chat. I feel like you, Michelle said this herself, but in not a long period of time, you both had such a rich conversation, like there was so much said. It was incredible.
Jivana Heyman 38:04
Well, she always inspires me. I think I probably had a lot to say in that conversation, because she gets me excited about ideas and the teachings. She always has a really interesting perspective on them. And she's also just such a nice person to talk to. I've known Michelle for years, and she's just as nice as she sounds. Like, she's really, really nice to get to know and hang out with. So I just feel lucky to call her my friend. I feel like that's one of the greatest blessings of you know, the work I've done all these years is get to spend time with incredible people like her. So yeah, I'm just grateful that she was available and talked to me. I mean, she's incredible, she's amazing. She's like a star, you know, she's a yoga celebrity!
Deanna Michalopoulos 38:51
Despite what you said on the podcast, Michelle, you are a real deal and a yoga celebrity. Jivana said it here.
Jivana Heyman 38:57
Yeah, she knows it too. I mean, my God, she's written how many books? It's like, unbelievable. She's so prolific, it just flows through her. So anyway, I'm grateful for her. So was there a part of the conversation that stood out to you, Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 39:20
So many things, I think every part of the conversation. But when she shared the teaching that's really stuck with her, and that was part of a workshop I believe, that she attended with Lama Rod Owens, who said, not everyone is going to go with you, and that's such an important thing as a teacher. And I feel like you and Matthew Sanford sort of touched on this as well. You're making an offering to the world, it's your service. You're sharing something that you believe will make a change in not only individual people, but in a world, and make it a better place for all living beings. And it's true, not everyone is going to walk with you on that path. And so I think there is that acceptance, but also, you know, the acceptance to make peace with as a teacher. But then there's also freedom in that, as well. Wondering what you think?
Jivana Heyman 40:13
Yeah, that's such a good...it's such a great topic, and it's a hard one for me, because I think I'm a people pleaser, and so that's always been a challenge for me to learn about non attachment, you know, which is an essential piece of yoga philosophy, to be able to love without attachment. It's almost like, like in Al-Anon, too. I don't know if you know that in Al-Anon, there's that detachment with love, is what it's called, you know, which is like you can care, but you don't have to fix someone, you don't have to change them, and that we can't really change other people. And as a yoga teacher, I've really had to learn that the hard way, because, I mean, well, first, I think, when I started out, I was teaching people with HIV and AIDS at a time where there was hardly any medications and people were dying. So my students were literally dying. So I felt like I couldn't take on the responsibility of, like, physically curing people. Like I didn't have that delusion to start with, to think, oh, come to yoga, you'll be cured. No. I mean, I knew people would continue to be sick. So I had pretty low expectations about what I was offering. It was mostly just, like a little bit of relaxation, maybe a few minutes of peace. So that was my goal, and physical comfort. You know what I mean? Like, I was trying to focus on that. So I think I already had, like, reduced expectations from that experience.
Jivana Heyman 41:36
But then, you know, like I said, being a people pleaser, I always wanted people to like what I offered and they didn't always. That's really hard! It's really hard when you have a student that gives you this funny look, or walks out of class early, or just like, leaves and never comes back. It's kind of heartbreaking, but it's unavoidable, and I've just had to let it go, just like, recognize that everyone has their own path, and I may not be part of that, and that's okay, like they might find what they need somewhere else. It might actually help them more if I let go, instead of holding on for me to fix it or for me to change the way I teach to make them happy. Because that's the other thing is, sometimes people ask me for something else. I've had students ask me, you know, less philosophy, less talking, more intense practice, they would want. And it's like, what do I do with that? I don't want to just be, like, non responsive, I want to be able to have a conversation with someone if they have a complaint about my work or teaching, but I'm not gonna change who I am. So sometimes it means just referring them out to somebody else. I don't know, but I think there's well, so let me just stop there. How does that sound? But I think there is some another part of this. I'm curious what you thought like about I was thinking more like on a larger scale, like globally, almost.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:04
Definitely another layer to talk about globally. But as you were just kind of finishing up your thought, it occurred to me there's like that tension between then, Accessible Yoga, you want to make your practices and your teachings accessible to everyone, and also the understanding that, like, what you teach may not be for everyone, there's a nuance, there isn't there?
Jivana Heyman 43:26
Oh, yeah, yeah, I always talk about that in my trainings, which is that 100% accessibility is not possible in yoga, I would say, or especially in any kind of group yoga class, because as a teacher, I can't read people's minds, like I can't know what they need in any given moment. And so I think we're coming at it maybe the wrong way, which is, like, it's not about pleasing, it's not people pleasing. Honestly, that's what I've had to learn the hard way. It's actually about service, which is offering something and then letting people decide if they want it or not. And even more than that, it's about recognizing that the students have a choice, that they can make yoga accessible if I give them the space to do so. And so I often say, as a yoga teacher, my job isn't to adapt everything perfectly for everyone in this space. It's actually to share power in such a way that they can make the choices they need to make to keep themselves, to serve themselves in that setting. So it's more like I can create the environment for accessibility to happen. It's just, it's like gardening, you know, I always refer to gardening again, but it's like, I don't have to do anything, like a rose knows how to grow, or an artichoke knows how to grow. I just kind of put it in the right place, and I offer the water or whatever, fertilizer, talk to it nicely, but I mean, it's going to do what it's going to do, and that maybe I could create that environment. I can create an environment that supports it, and I can't even create the environment. I can just, like, move it around the garden. Or maybe I'll do better over here, sometimes I move a plant to the other side and all of a sudden it's like, so happy. Do you know what I'm saying?
Jivana Heyman 44:38
Absolutely, in the year four of my little remote garden, satellite garden, half a country away from where I live...
Jivana Heyman 44:39
Ok, you were saying remote garden, I thought it was like on your phone, but no, you mean like...
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:07
A satellite garden that's thousands miles from where I actually dwell. Yeah, it's a practice of non attachment every single time. You get excited to see what's going to come back. And some things just don't come back in the spring. And you know, that doesn't mean it's never going to come back. Now that I'm on year four, I've seen things that were kind of dormant last year and didn't even make an appearance, and all of a sudden it's back and thriving.
Jivana Heyman 45:50
Yeah, yeah. I think, I guess that's what it is, as a yoga teacher, is like just creating the conditions that allow for people to go through what they need to go through. That's what I think we're trying to do with it, in terms of making yoga accessible, is just create the conditions, and then people will do what they do, and it's not our responsibility. You know what I mean? Well, so my teacher, Swami Satchidananda, who I have a lot of feelings about, he used to say, "Praise and blame, it's all the same." And I think that's an interesting thing too. It's just like, it's both sides of the same coin. It's like, if you want to take responsibility for someone else when they give you praise and they say, "Oh, that was such an amazing class, I had this incredible experience, and it's all because of you." It's like, well, then you also need to take the blame when someone doesn't like what you're doing, and I think neither one are really us, like, people confuse the teachings with the teacher, and it's more just like we're giving them exposure to something way beyond us. I mean, yoga is way beyond me. It's gone on for literally thousands and thousands of years. It's like universal wisdom that I'm just passing along and I think I need to get out of the way a little bit.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:10
I feel like praise and blame are all just words of the ego, right?
Jivana Heyman 47:14
Yeah. And that's the work, that's why I think being a yoga practitioner is so important when you're a yoga teacher, not because you need to be able to do all these fancy poses, but you need a practice that helps you see yourself clearly, a little bit, you know, to see your ego, to notice when it comes up, and then to be able to say, oh, I see, that person didn't like my class, and my ego is getting caught up in that. Or, oh, that person really loves me, they really love my class. Really, it's the yoga, you know, just remember, it's the yoga. And you can kind of nod and say thank you, and, you know, just let it kind of roll off of you, because, you know inside, it's not you. I mean, it's good that you're sharing and doing a good job, but, like, you can't take that on.
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:03
I appreciated that Michelle talked about how she has both practices and people in her life who kind of, quote, unquote, keep her in check, which was a funny thing for her to reveal. You know, when it comes to, you know, feeling powerful, but also maybe too powerful, or, like, leaning into the ego, or identifying with the ego a little too much. And so, you know, I just wanted to reiterate that, like, no matter who you are and how wise you are, how much you practiced, how much you taught, like, it's an ongoing practice. It takes community too.
Jivana Heyman 48:38
Yeah, I think power can be poisonous. Do you know what I mean? If you let that power that you're a channel for these incredibly powerful teachings, if you take it on and you let your ego think that it's doing it, you're just digging a deeper hole. You're actually doing the opposite of yoga, right? You're actually setting yourself up for failure. If you let your students put you on a pedestal, you're going to fall further down. It's just really the danger of being someone who holds these traditions, is that it can backfire. It really can. So having, like you said, having community keep you in check, having peers, like other teachers, and for me, also my family, having children, especially when they were teenagers. My God, my daughter is still a teenager, actually, so she keeps me in check.
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:39
They speak truth.
Jivana Heyman 49:42
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, you know, for me, having a relationship, like, I've been married, well, Matt and I've been together for 32 years, and I think, to me, he's helped me get through this time. Like it's almost exactly the same amount of time I've been teaching yoga, I've been with Matt, and having him there, not so involved, like on the side, kind of just like always watching what I do, he really has helped me not get lost in that way. Because God knows what I would have done without him.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:19
Michelle's book is already out. It came out in May, The Wisdom of the Hive: What Honeybees Can Teach Us about Collective Wellbeing. I've listened to Michelle talk about the book a few times, and I'm really excited to dive in myself.
Jivana Heyman 50:32
Yeah, I just got a copy. I'm excited to read it. I think that nature always has the answer, so that's kind of what we talked about today anyway, yeah, and I feel grateful to Michelle. I think she always offers leadership in a way that I just admire so greatly, and I really appreciate her time, and that, you know, she joined me for that conversation. And thank you to all the people listening. I really appreciate you also being here. And thank you Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:56
Thank you, Jivana. And also a reminder to everyone, if you have questions for Jivana, feel free to leave a voicemail. Could be about the episode, it could be about teaching. It could be about practicing yoga. We'd love to hear your questions.
Jivana Heyman 51:12
Okay, bye, everyone.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:13
Thanks, everyone.
