Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello. Welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. And I'm joining you from Chumash land, known today as Santa Barbara, California, and I'm really happy to be with you here today for this conversation with Tristan Katz. It's a really great conversation. Actually, I really appreciate Tristan's openness and willing to talk about challenges facing trans people right now, and also how we can engage with the yoga teachings in a way to help create more welcoming spaces. And also just how to do the work ourselves, how to be better yoga practitioners, better allies to the queer and trans community, mostly, how to not make assumptions about people. And I think that was really the theme I heard in this conversation, was using the practice to be reflective rather than to, I don't know, allow the kind of imagery and ideas that are pervasive in contemporary practice to impact the way that we practice ourselves and the way that we hold space as yoga teachers. So I think it's really about self inquiry. I think that maybe is what Tristan was getting at. And I love that. I think that's a huge part of yoga. In fact, there's a name for it, it's Jnana Yoga. J, N, A, N, A, Jnana Yoga, which is really the first theme in the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna asks us, you know, to really reflect on who we are. Well, he asked Arjuna to reflect on who he is, right, and to really question, question himself, and I think that's maybe a part of the practice that isn't so popular, because it's really hard. Anyway, I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. And also please stay for the second part, where Deanna and I talk about a great question about the future of yoga. So thanks again for being here, and I hope you enjoy this conversation with Tristan Katz.
Jivana Heyman 2:36
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Jivana Heyman 3:33
Okay, so hi everyone, and welcome to my special guest, Tristan Katz. Hey, Tristan.
Tristan Katz 3:38
Hi, Jivana. It's good to be here with you.
Jivana Heyman 3:40
Yeah. How are you?
Tristan Katz 3:41
I'm doing okay, I'm hanging in there. The sun is shining in Portland, Oregon and and that brings me joy right now.
Jivana Heyman 3:49
That's amazing. (Yeah.) I always forget that you're in Portland. I love Portland, isn't the city of roses? (Yes, it is.) That doesn't make sense to me, since it's so rainy, I just...
Tristan Katz 3:59
Well, the roses love the rain up here. Like they really explode. It's amazing. We're also, though, the city of bridges and, like, we have lots of various names for this beloved city of ours.
Jivana Heyman 4:17
Okay, anyway, I meant to ask you, to say more about yourself, to introduce yourself a little further, if you don't mind.
Tristan Katz 4:24
Yeah. My name is Tristan Katz. My pronouns are they and he. In the context of this space, I will start with the yoga part first, which is, I've been a student of yoga for 25 years this year and I finished my first 200 hour teacher training 10 years ago, like this month, actually. I taught for a few years. I taught in a hospital setting. I taught a chair based class in a hospital setting. I taught in outreach settings, mostly in spaces that weren't yoga studios. And then I just kind of felt like I needed to focus on my own practice and stop being in teacher brain all the time. And so I decided to pause teaching, and never went back to teaching yoga in that way, at least. But now, I mean, in addition to working with yoga teachers, I work with entrepreneurs and really folks of all kinds in the realm of marketing and equity work, and I combine the two. I talk about marketing in relationship to power, and using marketing as a space to practice our activism and practice our yoga, and I also teach and offer and facilitate trans and gender equity inclusion in the hopes of creating more spaces that are truly welcoming, especially in this moment that we're in when so many of us need support and community and services. And particularly those of us who are holding marginalized identities and experiencing increasing violence, it's like, what are we doing? How do we support each other? I want to be having those conversations with yoga teachers and anyone who's interested. So, yeah.
Tristan Katz 4:27
Well, I'm very grateful to you for doing that. You know, it's basically a lot of work, I would think for you, and I imagine, slightly exhausting to kind of have to teach about it all the time.
Tristan Katz 5:09
It's interesting how sometimes it renews me and replenishes me. And then there are some Zoom meetings, you know, or conversations that definitely bring up a lot for me, and I have to practice so much. I just have to practice so much, period, in order to keep showing up, and I feel like I'm resourced enough to keep doing it, even when it hurts me, or even when it takes from me in some way. I still have, like, I just feel like it's my path. I don't know how to stop doing it. I just want to learn how to do it more skillfully so I can keep showing up for it and it can stay sustainable, rather than it hurting me. Because sometimes it really does hurt me, and I know it's going to keep hurting me, but I want to learn how to support myself in it more and more and more, and it feels like something I'm growing over time, the ability to keep showing up for it even when it's hard. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 7:30
I want to ask more about that, but before I do, I just want to say that I also know you, because you were on our board for Accessible Yoga and used to be on staff. You helped me with marketing for a long time. So we worked together a lot. I just want to say that. (Yes.) And I'm really very grateful for what you've taught me and yeah, I love your work and I appreciate what you do. But going back to doing it, I'm curious, what is that for you, like, what are the practices that help sustain you? Are there any particular things right now?
Tristan Katz 8:03
I am a lifelong student, and I think in the last year and a half I've been really immersed in studying conflict and repair in relationship to the nervous system, and trauma, and attachment, and all these things, right? So I think right now, the thing that is helping me the most is having the tools and this awareness, the understanding to recognize when I am taken off my center, and learning to hold myself when somebody else isn't going to so that I can come back to myself and hold the conversation, or, you know, or hold the moment. This is something that I'm like, really trying to learn. Like, how do I remind myself, even when my body is saying, you're not safe, you're not safe, how do I remind myself that I've got me and that I am safe, and that safety and discomfort are two different things, and that I know how to stay, right? And to me, this is where the practices of yoga have greatly benefited me, in addition to all the things I'm studying, right? Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 9:22
Well, I mean, I was kind of laughing a little, because it's like, that is yoga. I mean, you basically described the purpose of yoga.
Tristan Katz 9:31
Yes. I didn't realize this, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, right? Like, in the 25 years I've been practicing, I feel like the practice keeps...I mean, they always say, right? Everybody always says, like, it meets you where you're at. And I feel like right now this is where it's showing up for me, in relationship to learning how to have hard conversations and how to how to see someone's humanity while I'm trying to affirm my own. You know?
Jivana Heyman 10:02
Especially the part you said about resourcing yourself. How did you say it? Like, being there for yourself? I don't know how you phrased it. That really touched me, because I think that's a hard thing to describe about yoga, that it's really about that, like, change the relationship with ourselves so that we can care for ourselves in a really different way than I think we usually do. I feel like that's what, that's why like, I said, that's like liberation, that's like enlightenment, almost. That's way up there to me. Like, honestly, I mean, it's what I aspire to. It's kind of the whole deal, to be at home yourself, and to be able to kind of withstand the rough tides, you know, whatever the challenges of life. I mean that's the whole point, like, to avoid future suffering, you know, like Patanjali says. Anyway, I'm just very excited by you saying that.
Tristan Katz 10:59
Yeah, me too. It's a hard practice in the work that I'm doing. You know, it's hard to be in conversations across lines of difference and call people in to things they might not be seeing or understanding, and yet, I am learning more and more how to hold space for myself in that process so I can keep showing up for it. And I just want to say, I mean, I can't help it. Michelle Cassandra Johnson, I mean, I mention her all the time, but I just feel like she's taught me so much, like modeled so much what this looks like in action. I've witnessed her for so many years hold these conversations, but also I've just learned so much from her about where her practice shows up for her in the work that she does. And I feel like I'm finally starting to understand in real time, you know, what these tools can look like? Yeah, in this context, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 11:56
That's amazing. Well, you mentioned Michelle, and it brings me to like the...I'm not gonna assume that she's part of that for you. But, like, I've been asking all my guests the same question about, like, what was there an experience or a particular teaching or something that has stuck with you and really guides you as you move forward? And I'm, I don't know. I just had a sense that Michelle might be involved in one of those things. Is that true?
Tristan Katz 12:23
It absolutely is. I can't talk about yoga without talking about Michelle's role in my life, and I can't talk about the work that I do without talking about Michelle's role in my life. When I got her book Skill in Action, and I'm looking at it. It sits on my desk next to me is, you know, it's one of those books that I just hold really, really close.
Jivana Heyman 12:46
And she'll be a guest on here soon. So, by the way, she'll be joining me, you know, I think probably just a couple episodes after this.
Tristan Katz 12:54
Good. Yeah, when I got her book in, I think it was 2018 and it came to me right when I needed it, right when I was ready, right when I was really questioning why I had always felt so othered in yoga spaces, when I myself held so many of the dominant identities that I saw reflected around me in these spaces, but yet I still felt so, I don't know, it was just always, like, complicated. And I felt like it was complicated in a way that it didn't seem complicated for other people in the space, you know. And reading Michelle's book really started to wake me up to some of those complications, some of the complications that I myself was living, and then some of the complications that I was observing other people live, but we weren't talking about, particularly in the relationship to who was in the room and who wasn't in the room, and who was expected to be the teacher, and what teachers were expected to look like, and power and authority and all of these things. Michelle's book really gave me language that I didn't know I needed, that I was really hungry for, and completely changed my own path in relationship to yoga and everything else I do. So yeah, that was, I feel like it marked a huge new chapter for me, getting her book and reading her book and then studying with her as much as I have over the last decade. It's just been life changing, really.
Jivana Heyman 14:30
Is there a moment? I mean, okay, reading and being with her, but like, can you think of one moment? Is that fair to ask?
Tristan Katz 14:38
Yeah, she came to Portland, Oregon, not long after I got the book and I read the book, and she happened to be coming to Portland for a weekend workshop. And I was so curious to see who was gonna show up in this weekend workshop. I've been such a consistent workshop person in Portland yoga scene. And yet, at the time, you know, quote, unquote, yoga and social justice programming wasn't something we were seeing a lot of, and so I was really curious to see who was going to show up. It was the first yoga space I had ever been in that had a significant population of people of color, in white Portland, and that made a really big impression on me. Suddenly, I realized that I had a role, just based on the fact that I was in that room and there were so many white people who weren't, right? Like, I was starting to understand, like, what is my role in all of this? I mean, I left with more questions than answers, as Michelle, you know, so skillfully guides us to understand is part of the practice.
Tristan Katz 15:49
But I remember thinking that weekend in particular, my role must be to be quiet and listen. And by the end of the weekend, I understood that just sitting back and listening was positioning myself as holding less labor in the space, and that that wasn't necessarily the quote right answer, and that all of this, it just led me into like understanding complexity and leaning into these questions about what it means to understand my role as a white person, to understand my role as a white person within yoga, to understand my role as a white person who has a master's degree. Like, to understand my role as a white person who is also queer and trans, and it just really started to highlight, that moment of recognizing that my role wasn't just to sit back and listen quietly, that there's a balance and a practice. And I think it started to unlock true allyship understanding for me and the ways in which, to me, yoga and quote, allyship, or whatever we want to call it. I mean, to me, it's human rights. Like, what else are we doing? What else are we practicing? This is about caring for ourselves and one another in my mind, and to me, Michelle's work really started to unlock that for me in a whole new way.
Jivana Heyman 17:13
Yeah. I love that. And thanks for sharing. I got a message yesterday from a white woman, a private message, kind of asking me, like, what should she do? Like, it was just really interesting, and I appreciated it. I mean, it was very sweet. And, you know, I could see she's really, like, trying to figure that out. And she mentioned dharma, and I just thought, oh, you know, dharma is such a hard word. And I feel like it's funny, because I think Michelle really kind of hit it on the head with calling her book Skill in Action. I mean, that's basically looking at one of the aspects of dharma being taught in the Bhagavad Gita, which is, you know, basically even defining yoga as Skill in Action. Yes. But I find that dharma gets really confusing for me and for many people, the word has so many meanings. And so, this person had a really good question, but then they started talking about, well, I don't know what my dharma is. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's the issue. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think you have to know your dharma.
Tristan Katz 18:16
Yeah. I'm like, if I try to know my dharma, I think I'm gonna get lost. You know, like, I'm missing. I'm missing. And to me, this is also what finding Michelle's book and her work and then, like, trusting that when she had a year long leadership training available, I said to myself. I don't know why I want to do that, but I want to do that. To me, this is me following my quote, dharma, is like, what is the thing that feels...I mean, alignment even is such a loaded word. Now these words, like, at one point, these words were really important. Dharma is an important word. Alignment is an important word, but I feel like our culture, our dominant culture, starts to adopt some of these words. And even in yoga culture now, alignment has this like whole thing around it, you know. And I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I just want to keep figuring out what the next right action is. And right is not black and white, and it's not going to necessarily be neat and easy and comfortable, and it might be something that brings discomfort or pain to myself or someone else, and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. And like, what is integrity? Like, what are...Again, I just keep coming back to like, what else are we doing in the practice? I know dominant culture, Western culture, white culture, wants to think that we're toning our abs or whatever, but like, I know that these teachings are so much bigger and that it is about living them and understanding how to bring them into our bodies and our actions and our relationships. And to me, that is like, if I'm obsessed with trying to figure out what my dharma is, then I'm missing the practice on some level. I feel like living the practice is the dharma, right?
Jivana Heyman 20:16
Yeah, I like that. I had actually responded to that comment that I think, for me, dharma is too complicated, and I prefer to think about satya, actually, and truthfulness, like what feels honest to me right now. And you're right, it's more about how am I responding in this moment? But I go back to what's true for me. That feels like something I can connect to a little more directly. It's still a hard one, though, you know, truth.
Tristan Katz 20:45
It is, but I'm like, is it that hard? Because, like, I'm even thinking about myself. Like, so what's true for me is, I feel complicated, calling myself a yoga teacher, so I'm going to talk about that complication. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of us, through training, through academic environments, through dominant culture, have been taught not to acknowledge when we don't know something, or to not position ourselves as learners, or to not wrestle publicly with something that could somehow signal to other people that we're not trustworthy in our line of work or area of expertise. And I want to see people wrestle publicly. That's gonna lead me to trust people more, I think. And so to me, it's like, I mean, how I would respond to somebody in my DMs who is a white cis woman asking me, like, what to do? I'd be like, start wrestling with the question - you're already doing it, you know, and talk about it with people. Because I think that's the other thing, is that we can feel so isolated when we start to wake up to our own unique role in things or ways we've been complicit without understanding, and it can feel so lonely. And I know there are other people doing this work all over the place, so find them, you know, find the people to learn from. Find the books, right?
Jivana Heyman 22:04
Yeah, I did send her to my book. (Good!) Because I do feel like, okay, I've shared a lot about it, like, for what I think we can do as practitioners through, especially Yoga Revolution, that book, but also just on my social media. But I just want to go back to your point about wrestling with it. I feel like that. I really love that, and I wonder, it's hard to do it in a world that has a short attention span too. But I I think about it a lot as I'm creating content. And I also wonder, like, I worry sometimes about being the expert, you know what I mean? Like, it's so dangerous, and so I've been asking more questions, you know, like that, but it's just, that's such a good point. That's all I just want to say. Like, I don't know. Can I make that as a post? I don't know!
Tristan Katz 22:59
Yeah, and I just wish that when I was coming, I'm even thinking of, like, quote, small moments right, where I was a student in a yoga class and I wanted some support around an injury, I really wish the teacher would have just said, I don't know, rather than trying to convince themselves and me that they have more knowledge than they actually have. Like, I don't expect yoga teachers to be trained in physical therapy or fill in the blank, right? And I've heard you, talk about this on various podcasts, how important understanding our scope is, to me this is also satya, you know,
Jivana Heyman 23:34
Yes. And also, the other piece of that that I always connect with is also not projecting other people's experience. So like, I think the other part of being truthful as a teacher or someone as any like kind of leadership position in this world of yoga is to not assume.
Tristan Katz 23:51
Yeah, which I know is really hard. We thrive on making quick assumptions. Our nervous systems are wired for safety based on quick assumptions, right? And this is a real human function. And, again, I feel like the teachings and the practice of yoga, practices of yoga, prepare us to slow down and watch the assumptions and the stories that our brains are making. And I feel like gender is just one of those assumptions that endlessly hurts so many people. It's not just some small fringe part of the population. Like, I think the assumptions we make about gender norms are hurting all of us in different ways, regardless of whether we're cis or trans or queer or hetero or what. And, yeah, that's just another part of like, well, truthfulness, right? What does it look like to be in truth? It looks like to say, whether I'm hearing about somebody's injury or I'm meeting a student for a first time, how can I be open to seeing this person rather than projecting my own stuff onto them?
Jivana Heyman 25:08
Oh, my God, say that again. Yeah. I think so. I think truthfulness is so important, and it's not...it's almost like we've, we've exchanged truthfulness with like expertise, like, it's almost like we just swapped those things, like, you have to just be the know it all, rather than actually just being willing to explore, and question, and not know, and be wrong. And, yeah, but I appreciate when you connected it to gender, because, wow, I mean, so much harm happens through that, right? Like, like, people are so upset that they can't assume someone's gender, like that's the goal or something, right? Like, is that what society wants, to like, just assume it? Like, why? Why is that so...why? It's so interesting. Maybe it's about safety. People feel like they can't control their lives, so they want to control the world around them.
Tristan Katz 26:09
Absolutely, and, I mean, we can't separate from bias, you know. And the two things are connected in some way. But I'm even thinking now, you know, God, like our understanding of gender has evolved so far over the existence of humans and and for us to think that what we now understand could possibly be the most, and when I say we, I mean, let's just say, you know, the guy in The Oval Office, who's declaring that there are only two sexes? You know what I mean? Like that can't possibly be true. Like, our understanding of human beings is still, we're still discovering, like they just found life on another planet. Why couldn't we...why would we only think that there are two and that it's something we can assume based on appearances or names or hair or clothing or, you know, the list goes on. But yeah, yoga in particular has really, yoga in the West, has been built on this assumption, and this mistruth. Yoga in the West has been marketed and centered upon one dominant population, which is white, cisgender, wealthy, bendy, thin women, right? And I just feel like we've seen such a big shift in the last, I don't know, maybe 10 years, and we still have so far to go.
Tristan Katz 27:48
And everybody has a responsibility, you know, like the magazines have a responsibility, but studios have a responsibility. Teachers have a responsibility. You know, I just saw a yoga teacher friend of mine put together a carousel slide post for a workshop that she's offering. And in the carousel slide post, she put all kinds of access information, including what the gender whatever is of the restrooms in the studio, so that people know ahead of time, like, is this a unisex, is this a gender neutral, or is it not so that their nervous systems? I mean, it felt like her letting me know what to expect. From this seemingly small thing, like the sign on the door the bathroom or the changing room or whatever, like, now I know what I'm gonna walk into if I go into that studio space. She's giving me a heads up and that felt really beautiful. And I'm just wondering, like, how can teachers continue to create signals of inclusion and back it up with action?
Jivana Heyman 28:56
Wait, wait. many things you're saying that are so important, so I want to lose track in my mind. So okay, for that piece, I just want to agree and say that's accessibility. Accessibility means information, and giving people access to information is giving them power. So, like you said, giving them, telling them about the restrooms, but also telling them, like, what the class might entail in detail. The kinds of practice it might be, will there be music? Will it be heated? Will there be touch? Like, all those pieces of information help to make it an accessible experience that people can decide ahead of time if they're up for that. It's not a surprise at any given moment. So that's, again, but that's goes back to the other point I want to make. I just want to say, you went to this thing about, you know, contemporary practice, and how it's all white and women and all that. But I think the problem with that, and I feel like it's assumed in what you said. But I just want to say, if this is what you're trying to say, is that the assumptions that are made because of that. The assumptions that are made in spaces that are kind of homogeneous. You know what I mean? Like, when the space is all of those people only, there are certain assumptions made in that space, and that isn't welcoming or accessible or inclusive for others. And so that's the issue here. It's not like, I mean, sure, white women can practice all the yoga they want, like, it doesn't matter to me. As long as there aren't assumptions made that they're the only ones there or interested. And I've even had that, just as a white man, to be honest, like I felt, and it's hard to say, like, as a white man, that you don't feel welcome someplace. But like, literally, I've been in yoga spaces where I'm the only man and they're talking about women and all that stuff. And I'm like, what is going on? So, I mean, I have a glimpse of it that way, but I think it's about this assuming, that's the problem.
Tristan Katz 30:54
Yeah. And I found myself recently laughing about, I think it might have been in your cohort of the Accessible Yoga Training, I'm not sure, but talking to a group of yoga teachers recently, and I just thought it was so silly that, I mean, almost 20 years, the cues I heard were, "Ladies, your hamstrings are likely more flexible. You won't need to sit on a blanket or a prop for this forward fold, but men, your hamstrings are likely going to be tighter, and you'll want to support yourself with props." I can't tell you how many times I've heard these cues, you know, and I want us to do better in so many ways. Like, hamstrings are tight for all of us, period! We're living in a sedentary culture, you don't need to specify gender. What we might do is say something like, if your hamstrings are tight, you might enjoy putting a blanket under your legs. And yeah, I just think the conversation about access is so big, and I'm just so glad that you've opened the doors for it to be had in the way that it is happening. You did, you opened a door.
Tristan Katz 30:55
I appreciate that. I was gonna say, like, I think it is big, because if you think around around disability, this is a piece that always gets me assuming people want to be different than they are. Which, especially around disability, where people just assume, oh, you don't want that disability, or you don't want that illness, you want to be better. And it's like, don't assume that.
Tristan Katz 32:38
And I think there's a lot of intersecting or complimentary things from what I've understood of the conversations happening in the disabled community and the conversations happening in the queer and trans community, the trans community in particular, of, like, you know, I'm not struggling because I'm trans right now, like, that's not the problem. Like, I love being trans. I'm happier in my entire life than I've ever been because I know myself as trans and queer. And to me it's similar with disability, as if these words inherently mean something negative or pejorative, and my transness is is magic and healing and liberation. And the problem isn't that I'm trans, the problem is that transphobia and anti trans bias exists, and heteronormativity exists, and we've codified all of these things, right? And then we're acting them out in relationships and spaces, including yoga spaces that are supposed to be about healing and liberation and non harming.
Jivana Heyman 33:51
Okay. I just want to give people something they can do. So, they could study with you. You kindly, generously lead workshops about that, which, again, kind of is amazing to me, that you're willing to still, like I started with, that you're willing to still do that and have the patience for it. So people can, who are listening, who want to know what they can do, other than just like, stop assuming things about people! Across the board. What else would you offer?
Tristan Katz 34:26
Read Michelle Cassandra Johnson's book, Skill in Action.
Jivana Heyman 34:31
Yes. We can link to that in the shownotes. And like I said, we'll have her on soon.
Tristan Katz 34:35
I have so many resources I can share. You know, book recommendations, podcast recommendations. I mean, really, if there's one thing I would ask right now is that people actually listen to trans voices, and that we all contribute to elevating trans voices at a moment when we're literally being silenced and erased. I really think that that feels...and like, if you don't have trans people in your life, or you've never practiced with a trans teacher, or, you know, read a book that's written by a trans author, it's like, I think now's the time to open ourselves up to understanding what kind of narrow view we've had of the world and how we might make it a little bit more spacious so that we can truly be in right relationship with ourselves and one another. Yeah, I can keep going.
Jivana Heyman 34:36
You can keep going. I mean, I would say even the queer community, it feels problematic. I don't feel like there's been enough support, considering the level, the intensity of the attacks, I'm just kind of shocked.
Tristan Katz 35:49
It is, it's shocking. And then I think, I keep seeing lately, I had this...I just love it when I'm I have these light bulb moments, and I realize there's something that I just didn't get before. And it just, I'm like, oh my goodness. How did I not understand that? Of course, I did it. You know, history is taught to people in this country, in the United States, in a certain way, and a lot of it is wrong. And one of the things that a light bulb went off above my head about recently was the fact that the AIDS crisis, there must have been so many trans people impacted in that time that we don't even have information about because, quote, unquote, they didn't exist, when in reality, we know that trans people have always existed. And I'm just thinking, like, how much that whole... and you were there. Like, and it breaks my heart that there's a community of people who were impacted in that time and in such a serious way and we often don't even acknowledge them when we're talking about the AIDS crisis. And that erasure of history...ugh...
Jivana Heyman 37:07
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about that, because I saw it happen. It wasn't just trans people, but I would say any marginalized person was, but, I don't know how to say this without being horrible, but like, white men, white gay men, kind of took over in some of those AIDS activist groups that I was a part of. And actually it became divisive within the groups, like it was so interesting to watch how even AIDS activism began to split over that. There were like, the more conservative white gay men that kind of went off and did their thing, often working with the government, because they were getting, I don't know what, they were getting medications and access. So there's that part of AIDS activism, where there's the group of white men that kind of went and worked with the government, when there were openings. I mean, I think they made some progress too. But then there were, like, the actual, what I would say were like the community based organizers who I felt like I learned the most from, personally, like ACT UP/New York. I used to go the meetings early on, that's where I got exposed to a lot of these ideas, in the late 80s. I just graduated high school, and I was scared and shy, but I would just kind of go and sit and sit and listen. I kind of had a similar exposure that you described to Michelle's work, at that point, mostly from lesbians, to be honest. There were lesbian leaders in that group that blew my mind, honestly. They knew what was actually going on, and they described it perfectly. They explained the whole thing, like, top to bottom. Do you know what I mean? They just offered a vision of the world that just really changed my life, that was just different than I had been taught. But I don't mean to change that from that trans people that were lost through AIDS, because I agree with you. I think there were a lot, but I also think a lot of people of color.
Tristan Katz 39:21
Yes, it has been whitewashed, and we know that. And yeah, it's like, okay, so then what's the call to this moment? Let's not lose history. You know, elevate trans voices. Listen to trans people. Elevate queer voices. Listen to queer people. Listen to immigrants, you know, listen to people of color. My goodness, these words are not bad words, you know.
Jivana Heyman 39:47
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for that. Wow. Well, thanks for sharing and you know, yeah, just being willing to talk about it, like I said. It really means a lot to me. (Likewise.) Is there anything else that you want to share?
Tristan Katz 40:04
No, I was just sure that I love hanging out with yoga people. I mean, it's complicated, because there are lots of times where I'm like, I hate yoga people, you know! And, like, it just feels like this is where my feet are most rooted, is in conversations with people who are studying and practicing and teaching yoga. And so if anybody's interested in, you know, getting support in the realm of what I offer, I would love, if you're listening...Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 40:38
Yeah. So we'll definitely link to your work. People can study with you. I know you offer a lot of marketing related services too, you've supported me a lot that way. And hopefully yoga teachers or anyone listening might consider working with you that way as well. Or taking a training with you or something, because you have a lot to offer. And yeah, I love the way you talk about marketing. It made it so much more, I don't know, like, appealing to me. Instead of part of capitalism, it felt like almost, you were kind of, what's the word? Like, going around, like you were kind of using the system to offer education and more meaningful stories and learning, and that is brilliant.
Tristan Katz 41:28
I'm really glad that's your takeaway. I'm doing a good job. [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 41:34
All right, thank you so much.
Tristan Katz 41:35
Thank you, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 41:36
All right. Take care. (You too.)
Jivana Heyman 41:38
I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Offering Tree for making life easier for yoga teachers. No tech headaches, no jumping between apps, just more time to focus on what you love, teaching! Offering Tree offers all the tools you need to manage your emails, set up payment plans and so much more. You can get a free trial and a special discount using our link at offeringtree.com/accessibleyoga. And Offering Tree is also dedicated to helping you grow. They have a fantastic upcoming webinar you won't want to miss on June 16, at 12pm Eastern Time. Discover how to host courses on Offering Tree and easily create, manage, and sell your online courses directly on their platform. You can head over to the link in our show notes to register for free. Thanks, Offering Tree.
Jivana Heyman 42:47
Hi, everyone. Welcome back. Hi, Deanna.
Jivana Heyman 42:50
Hi, Jivana. How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:51
How are you? Jinx! Buy me a tea.
Jivana Heyman 42:56
Okay! Let's see, now, how are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:00
All things considering, I'm doing okay. How are you?
Jivana Heyman 43:04
Uh...same. I'm actually really good. Yeah, I don't know. It's been a good day. I'm excited about this podcast, excited about teaching, celebrating 30 years of teaching. In fact, you know, I mentioned, I think it'll happen before this episode comes out, but people can still get the recording of the celebration that we're having of my 30 years of teaching.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:30
Everyone, if you don't know, this podcast is actually based on the fact that this is Jivana, 30th year of teaching, and you all probably know that, but we're actually celebrating. It will be a couple weeks after Jivana's birthday by the time you'll hear this, and it also aligns with when he first started teaching. So we're having a gathering hosted by Anjali Rao, and Jivana has promised us this juicy practice, this juicy chair yoga practice that I'm really excited about, and it's going to be the story of his life through a chair yoga practice.
Jivana Heyman 44:03
Yeah, that's exciting.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:03
We'll put in the shownotes so you can actually practice.
Jivana Heyman 44:07
Right, and it's a fundraiser for the Trevor Project, it's a great organization that is supporting queer and trans youth, which I feel like are incredibly important to protect right now and support. I hope people will make donations to them, and we can have a link to that as well, that fundraiser. And speaking of queer and trans youth, I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about with Tristan. You know, I just appreciate everything they were sharing and how hard things are right now. And what they shared about how it's been for them, right? Weren't you impressed?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:41
I mean, I take every opportunity I can to listen to Tristan talk. They're incredible. And I think, yeah, you two started off your conversation and he was saying, how in this time, like, he's leaning on the practice. Like, it's just a non negotiable at this point, and just practicing so much in order to show up.
Jivana Heyman 45:02
Yeah, that's so great. I love that. That's what yoga is for, you know. I mean, yoga obviously can have many different purposes and people can engage however they want. But I just love when I hear about a practice being used to support marginalized people and marginalized communities to give them more energy and strength and peace of mind. And I feel like that's just such an incredibly powerful way that yoga can support us. And a way that's often lost since marginalized folks are often excluded from yoga, at least mainstream practices. So it's kind of like this weird irony that it's also incredibly supportive of them. If we can find a way in, right, if folks who find that they're struggling can find a way to practice, it's just so helpful.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:51
Absolutely, and it's something to remember during Pride, Pride Month. And, you know, I feel like every year it takes on new meeting. Like, you know, it's a celebration, it's also remembrance. Andat this time in our world, it's like nothing could be more important.
Jivana Heyman 46:09
I know, and it I don't know, naively, I used to think that civil rights and social justice were kind of evolving in one direction, like getting better, just always. And it feels like we're moving backwards right now, like things have really gotten a little scary, even a lot scary, to be honest. I don't mean to minimalize it, I think it's a very scary time. So pride is especially important. I think that, you know, in the 80s, when we were in the middle of the AIDS epidemic, and I was really into Pride back then, because I saw like how important it was for us to speak up as queer people, especially around AIDS, and speak up for awareness around AIDS. But then it seemed like things I don't know, we got kind of, I got lazy, maybe? I don't know. It just felt like it wasn't as essential. And I think that's not the case anymore now, you know, it's really clear, like, we need to celebrate, we need visibility. I'm scared for trans and queer youth. I actually worry that, you know, that they may not see themselves represented, they might internalize the hate. And that's really what the Trevor Project is working on in particular, and why I chose them for my fundraiser, because I know what it was like to be a queer kid. And it's so hard when you see that happening, when you hear those messages, it's hard to not take them on, when you don't have the strength yet or experience to know that things are okay. You know that there a place for all of us in the world. We can find our community, our chosen families and people want us. Yeah, makes me kind of sad.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:52
It must feel like, and you know, I've been asking you this question sort of a lot, like, how does it feel looking back on 30 years, three decades? It's sort of like, you're still an activist, you still speak out on your page, you use your platform to elevate voices as well. But also, you're kind of seeing next generations of activists kind of come up. And also, it's a different time, it's the same battle in a different form, maybe a little further along.
Jivana Heyman 48:21
Yeah. Actually, I feel a little...what's the word? Not disheartened, but a little sad that we didn't do better, like that my generation didn't do a better job of getting further. You know, it feels like we're kind of, oh my god, we're back here again? Like we're struggling for just basic respect and humanity or human rights, I should say. I mean, I'm kind of shocked that it's still happening, that that's still the question on the table, right, in the US, at least. I mean, because I feel like that's really all I can speak to, is what we're dealing with in the US. And I felt like we made big strides from the 80s, 90s and then it feels like, I don't know, now it's just kind of up in the air again. So yeah, it feels a little bit like a circle, like we've come back to the beginning. And I shouldn't laugh, it's just heartbreaking. And I know it's not, maybe the same, there's slightly different issues, but there's similar feelings about it. What it makes me think about, just regarding 30 years is, like, the evolution of yoga in particular, and how, well, not just yoga, but just how, like, human beings don't really change. Like, essential human nature is almost constant throughout time, because when I look back at the yoga teachings in particular, some that composed literally 1000s and 1000s of years ago, and they're explaining the same problems that they're having, like the same challenges that humans faced 1000s of years ago, and it's just kind of concerning in a way.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:06
It does feel like, in order for us to evolve, we have to be willing to look at the past, past history, past philosophy, like, the answers are sort of there for us, right? Like, that's what we can learn from and take into the present so we can, like have a future. Like our success as human beings, as a species, especially now with climate change, like it all depends on us really taking what's happened before us, the learnings from activists, from history, from people who've made change. Because if you look back, there's always like, oh, this happened before, and this is how, in times where it feels like you can overcome something, people found a way.
Jivana Heyman 50:49
Yeah, there's some, I don't know where I heard it, but somewhere in the teachings that talks about how human beings are actually devolving. Is that the word? Like, de-volving and that we're losing some capacity. Like in the past, supposedly, like, yogis and yoga practitioners could memorize the teachings, you know, like entire scriptures by heart. And now we can't do that, you know, and that we need written language and written books to remember things and computers to think for us. So I don't know if that's even true, but it's a scary thought. It's a little concerning.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:29
You know, one thing I do want to kind of highlight that Tristan said, which goes back to the yoga teachings of seeing everyone as ourselves, as ourselves as everyone, just that process of how to see someone's own humanity while trying to see your own. So in this time where it's like, incredibly divisive, and people are basically like, refusing some folks humanity right, like denying them human rights, ways to thrive. It's kind of like the practice really asks you to see them as human as well.
Jivana Heyman 52:04
Yeah, not only us. I mean, literally, it's like a fundamental aspect of yoga is that we all share the same spirit. And I think maybe the most fundamental teaching of yoga of all. So I would say that you can't practice yoga, or call yourself a yoga practitioner and not see all beings as equal to you. That's like the starting point. You know, we all share that same spirit, Purusha, or Atman are the Sanskrit words. And yoga is about removing the obstacles from that perspective, from that vision of humanity as an equal and diverse, I don't know what, like, being. We're all part of that one being, you could say. So, yeah, I love that about what Tristan said. And also, I think, didn't Tristan talk about discomfort too? That it's not about that, like, sometimes there's discomfort in that. You might have to challenge yourself, and that's what yoga says as well, right? That yoga makes us reflect and sometimes see things that we don't like about ourselves, recognize our own egocentric tendencies, and our own selfishness, and the ways that we are maybe not aligned with ahimsa or non harm or not being truthful in the way we think or act. You know, all the yamas, I think, are really there to help remind us, like, how to connect back to that truth and have that vision of humanity, of the equity that yoga speaks to.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:37
Yeah, I think that discomfort with facing those truths, you know, it creates a tension, a friction, that creates, like, a transformative fire, I would say.
Jivana Heyman 53:48
I love that. Tapas. You know, that's like, that's the transformative fire, tapas, which is the discipline. And that's the thing, yoga is challenging. It's a discipline. It makes us look at things and be in discomfort. And yet sometimes it feels like we're taught that yoga is just to make us feel good, and it's almost used as like a way to avoid that, to soothe us rather than to actually challenge us. And I think that's the dangerous part, that's the spiritual bypassing part of contemporary practice in particular. Like, saying we're all one, or good vibes only, or whatever that is, that's not the point. It's actually recognizing where we have limitations in order to actually have that vision of connection.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:36
Well, we were just talking about cycles of life and history and we actually have a voicemail, and it sort of speaks to that very thing. It's sort of funny how this happens. We don't plan this. A lot of times, the voicemails reference these conversations. So it's amazing.
Jivana Heyman 54:53
I think it's pretty clear that we don't plan this. I'll just say [laughing]
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:02
And furtively look at my notes. Just kidding. (Oh, okay.) Well, we do have a voicemail, and this is from Rebecca Sebastian, a two time caller, so just know, if you left a voicemail before you can always leave another one. Also, the hotline is open for jokes. We are still looking for jokes that you may share in class. So keep that in mind that we love all sorts of voicemails. Okay, here is Rebecca's question.
Rebecca Sebastian 55:29
Jivana! Okay, I think you should answer the question, where do you see the yoga teaching space going in the next 10 years? Like, what do you think current teachers should be learning now in order to be relevant five or 10 years from now? Oh, by the way, hi, it's Rebecca. I hope you're amazing. And I'm totally stealing this Speakpipe idea, because it's so good. It is so good. Okay, I hope you're awesome and having the best day. Okay, bye.
Jivana Heyman 56:08
Thank you, Rebecca. I just want to say that I appreciate Rebecca calling twice, because Rebecca has her own podcast, which I will plug, Working in Yoga, which I was a guest on maybe twice. But I think it's a great podcast, I hope you'll go and check it out. What a good question. I know that we were just talking about the past and humans devolving. I mean, that's kind of up the same alley. What was she saying? Like, five to 10 years from now? Like, what should yoga teachers be learning so they could be able to but be effective in five to 10 years? Yeah, God, I have no idea. [laughing] Do you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:50
I interviewed you for story I wrote for Yoga Journal on the future of yoga.
Speaker 1 56:58
Oh yeah, well, we need to link to that. I hope it's still live, that article. Yeah, we'll link to that in the shownotes. It's definitely still available. All right, what did people say? Do you remember? Yeah, absolutely.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:10
Jivana, you spoke a lot about the ethics of yoga and so, you know, authoritarian teaching styles like not withstanding everything else going on, but teaching styles are giving way to more contemporary approaches, trauma informed yoga, and that gives students more agency in their practice. So everything that you are teaching now and our guest teachers are sharing in our trainings and courses, that's going to be utmost important moving into the future.
Jivana Heyman 57:35
Yeah, I still agree with that. I think that there's no way around it. I think the what we might call mainstream yoga right now that feels very much like fitness class, I think that'll end up in the gym and not in yoga spaces. I have a feeling that the heart of yoga will really shine through. To be honest, the thought that comes to me is that we don't need to worry about it so much because these are eternal teachings, like we talked about, 1000s and 1000s of years old. And I think the truth survives. And I feel like those teachings, like, sometimes I think people try to protect them, like we want to protect these traditional teachings. I don't think it's even necessary. I think the teachings are so powerful that they will exist beyond all of us, as they have for so many people who've come before. I mean, think of all the teachers and all the practitioners over 1000s and 1000s of years who have shared these teachings and practiced them, and it wasn't about them, right? It's not about the individual people. It's about the teachings and how they can just stand the test of time. So I don't worry about that. All that changes is the form, like the form changes for how they're shared. So we can look at an evolution of the form of teaching yoga that has gone from even within a couple 100 years, has changed. From traditional guru situation, to now more like or even like 10 years ago, maybe, like a yoga studio situation, and then now more just like both, kind of online and in studios, and be a little bit more relaxed in community centers, in places like schools and hospitals. I think, at least in the West, it's kind of seeping out into the culture more and probably in 10 years, we see that even more so, like, it's just even more involved in other aspects of our lives. And of course, there's AI. I mean, there'll definitely be a huge impact of AI. I imagine some yoga teachers will probably lose their jobs, but I don't think it'll really impact the heart of the teachings. I don't think we can look to AI to share a space with and to kind of help us experience the vibration of the yoga teachings that come through sitting together in practice. It is just such a beautiful experience for me that happens when we're sitting together in community, if we're meditating or practicing asana, or whatever it is, that it's more like a vibrational experience that I don't know if AI will be able to do that to me. That's just so human.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:29
Yeah, AI is absolutely going to change the way we live day to day. It's going to change our world. When I wrote this piece in 2022 it seemed like, you know, maybe 15 to 30 years away that there would be machines offering you a yoga class based on your biometrics. I mean, we're already seeing that people are on chat GPT, doing their own therapy. And you know, chat GPT is ingesting works from yoga teachers, right? Like your books have been like flagged as being like, ingested by this machine. And so, you know, it's taking all of these disparate voices and care. But I think in light of that, it means that, like you said, people are gonna be attuned to a vibration, you know, if we're lucky, everyone will want to, like, kind of feel something and feel something with their classes. And I don't know if a machine that amalgamizes all these voices can do that.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:22
Maybe it could help us to let go of that piece. Because I feel like what AI or chat GPT could do is teach us, like, how to do this pose kind of thing, and that that's not what yoga really is. So sure, like, you know, it'll steal all the information from teachers and writers like me, because I do see it happening already, like I have, like you said, my books were used by chatGPT, or whoever it was, to teach AI about yoga. And I do see now a bunch of AI generated chair yoga books. Like, if you look on Amazon, it's quite scary, like almost all the chair yoga books were not written by human beings. There's not even an author's name on them. And I think those are the books that were created from books like mine and others where the content was stolen. So I do have feelings about that, but honestly, because I've gone off on a tangent, but the point is, yeah, I agree with you that maybe it'll help us to distill what's really important and to let go of the kind of the stuff that a robot could do, and recognize what is the human piece or the spiritual piece of these ancient teachings, and focus on that instead, which is quite beautiful and powerful, potentially.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:41
Someone close to me was just doing a research visit to RISD, Rhode Island School of Design. This was in 2015 and the technologists there were saying that, you know, with the rise of machines doing more into the future, there's going to be a rise in interest in ethics literature, kind of like, back to basics. It's kind of the cycle of things. So I think that things that aren't machine created necessarily have a premium, and not by, like, a price or value in that way, like it's going to be something that people seek out.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:17
Oh, yeah. Well, if you think about, like, just in the last, I don't know, 20 years, even just the last generation, you feel like there was this time where, like, really plastic and industrial things were great and exciting. And now it feels like people want homemade things. Like you go to the farmers market because you want to have fresh produce that's directly from the farm, and homemade bread from someone you can meet and talk to. And there's something so powerful about that, the human touch in that, in the making of things that I think feels like exactly what you're saying, like you think that would be gone, but we actually appreciate it more now that ready made is so easy to get.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:47
So like, artisanal practices.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:09
Yes, yoga practices. I know. I don't want to deny, though, that some people probably will lose their jobs. I think the standard gym class, it's like, I don't know if we need a human to do that. I mean, I wish we did, but I think it's the more heart centered practices that I think will, you know, withstand this challenge. And like I said, maybe it's helpful in some way. I don't know. What a great question Rebecca, I mean, I think she's doing a whole series on this for her podcast, so I'm sure she has a lot of better ideas about it than I have. But yeah, it's a great question.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:04:48
Yeah, check out my piece. I interviewed incredible teachers who all gave their opinions about the future, everything about, you know, how the population of older adults will be growing exponentially in the next 15 years, to how rest will be incorporated in day to day life a little more. So check it out.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:08
Yeah, that was a great article. Thanks, Deanna, all right. Thanks, Rebecca, and thanks, Tristan, for a really great conversation. I really appreciate you, and thanks for talking with me, and thanks everyone for listening. I really appreciate you being here too. Please join us next time. All right. Thanks, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:27
Thanks, Jivana. Take care, everyone. (Bye.)
