Speaker 1 00:00:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, which is known today as Santa Barbara, California. And I'm so glad that you're here for this conversation that I had with Kathryn Budig. It's really fun. She's amazing. She has a very unique perspective in the yoga world. I mean, she really is a yoga celebrity, and that's part of what we get to talk about today. And even though she has that, you know, celebrity status, I just find her to be really down to earth and fun and silly, and I know that really comes through in her teaching. If you've ever taken a class with her, you know what I mean. She's also an incredibly dynamic person, she has a publishing house now, which is really cool, and I just appreciate how honest and open she is in this conversation. So I hope you enjoy it, and also please stay after, I'm joined by Deanna, and we get to hear from you. We get to hear from some listeners, really interesting comments and experiences that they share today, and I'd love to hear more. If you have anything that you'd like to share with me, any questions or comments about yoga, about this podcast, about teaching yoga in particular, which is my favorite thing, please don't hesitate to leave me a voicemail, which you can find the link in the shownotes of the podcast. All right, okay, so here's my conversation with Kathryn Budig.
Speaker 1 00:02:14
I'm so grateful to Offering Tree for sponsoring this podcast and for making life easier for yoga teachers. If you're dreaming of turning your passion of teaching yoga into a sustainable business, they have everything you need in one simple platform. You can have your website, class scheduler, email marketing, payment processing and even membership tools all in one place. And Accessible Yoga podcast listeners get 50% off the first three months, or 15% off the first year. You can sign up now and let them know that I sent you by using our link, offeringtree.com/accessibleyoga. It's also in the shownotes, so you don't have to write it down. Thank you, Offering Tree.
Speaker 1 00:03:04
Hi everyone. Welcome back. I'm so excited to be here with Kathryn Buddig.
Kathryn Budig 00:03:08
Hi, so good to be here!
Jivana Heyman 00:03:11
Thank you. Thanks so much for doing this, and it's great to see you.
Kathryn Budig 00:03:15
I know, it's good to see you too.
Jivana Heyman 00:03:17
I can't remember. When was it, like, two years ago?
Kathryn Budig 00:03:20
What is time? Has it been two years? Please say that's not true.
Jivana Heyman 00:03:25
We got to meet once, and that was, well, a while back, but it's nice to see you. How are you? How you doing?
Kathryn Budig 00:03:32
You know, I feel like that's such a complicated question these days, Jivana. [laughing] I'm like, on the surface level, sure, I'm fine. Or like, oh God, hanging in by a thread. I am, in many ways good and optimistic, in many ways, terrified and overwhelmed, but trying to take each day, sometimes each hour, as it comes. But I'm happy right now because I'm with you! I think there's a lot to be said about the company that you keep these days. So being in the room, or on the Zoom, in the room or in the Zoom, with good people, it feels like balm right now.
Jivana Heyman 00:04:21
Yeah, I know what you mean. What is the part that's good? Like, I'm just curious. Like, I know things are just so chaotic in the world, and it's so easy to go down..like, if you just read the news, it's so shocking and depressing.
Kathryn Budig 00:04:34
It does. Hourly shock, I feel. The good is, I kicked off the year, so we're recording this. I almost said February. It's not February, it's March. Recording this in March, but I had two surgeries. I had one in January, and then another one three weeks later, which caused a lot of anxiety to have not one, but two surgeries. Nothing life threatening, one with shoulder and one with sinus, and I feel, for the first time in a long time, just very optimistic about moving towards feeling good. And it's been a long time since I feel that I have, I've tried, I feel like I've been chasing my tail for a long time, and I finally feel like I am moving quite slowly. It's a long runway ahead of me, but I am inching towards that place of feeling more connected to myself again. And I don't take that for granted at all, that is a really beautiful gift. That is a daily happy moment for me.
Jivana Heyman 00:05:40
Yeah. So can you talk more about that? Like, how has it been? I mean, you had, like chronic issues that you're dealing with, and so you're addressing them, finally, is that it?
Kathryn Budig 00:05:52
It sounded like you were about to say chronic Chaturanga, and you were, I did have a chronic Chaturanga.
Speaker 1 00:05:58
I should have said that! That's a new condition, in yoga, by the way, chronic Chaturanga.
Kathryn Budig 00:06:06
A byproduct of way too much Ashtanga vinyasa flow, 100% that is me. Yeah, I had rotator cuff surgery on my left side. And I mean, for anatomy fans who are listening, my bursae was pretty much destroyed. I had a bone spur. They went in and cleaned it. My cuff was totally frayed. And they've discovered that if you detach one of the bicep tendons, there's one that's straight, and the other one does this weird 90 degree angle thing that doesn't really anatomically make any sense, and yet, that's how we're made. Surgeon discovered that if he detaches that tendon and moves it to another location that allows it to go straight, that he's seen really good results in his athletes from that so he detached and reattached my bicep into a new home. So that's the recovery process from my shoulder. And then I came out of the womb with bad sinuses, so I just had my second sinus surgery, which honestly felt like a cake walk after the shoulder surgery!
Speaker 1 00:07:10
And so is your shoulder injury related to your practice, do you think, was it all the Chaturandga?
Kathryn Budig 00:07:17
I mean, without a doubt, I think that's part of it. I also used to Ju Jitsu. I jumped out of an airplane 150 times. (Wow!) I mean, there's kind of a large menu of things that could have caused this, but I am here to say that I think putting your foot behind your head is not a good location for your foot to be. [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 00:07:39
I kind of want to hear that from you, honestly, like, if that's okay, just because this is Accessible Yoga and I feel like it's one thing to say, oh, you know, yoga is for everyone, and we need to make practices accessible. It's another thing to say, wait, is this intense practice actually potentially dangerous, so be a little more careful, and consider making everything a little more, I don't know, not gentle, but just more safe.
Kathryn Budig 00:08:04
Yeah, this is a very fascinating conversation for me in the sense that my teacher was Maty Ezraty, who was one of the co founders of YogaWorks, and in my opinion, one of the finest teachers that ever existed. May she rest in peace. And she was unlike your typical Ashtanga teacher in the sense that she was truly the one, the teacher who brought props and and was trying her best to make Ashtanga approachable, which for anyone who practices Ashtanga, like, making Ashtanga approachable is no easy feat, because it is probably one of the more quote athletic kinds of asana. And it's difficult for me because I still hold so many good memories from my Ashtanga practice. I was in my 20s when I started doing Ashtanga. Well, technically, I guess I was a teenager, but I didn't start with Maty until I was in my 20s, and it was family. I have really beautiful memories of being in the Mysore room with her, with the same people around four o'clock Monday through Friday. And I think the thing that was so alluring about it, in the Mysore style, is you don't get a new pose until the teacher thinks that you are prepared and ready for the next pose, and then they teach it to you, so it always feels like it's your birthday, or you feel lucky when you get that. And she was so smart about using blocks and straps and not pushing yourself, but I also think that Ashtanga, it does attract a type A personality type. A I was young, and I was athletic, and I was very able, and I was surrounded...I was part of this generation, that, woo! Man, we were ambitious, and it was terrifying, in retrospect, and I think that part of me was trying to keep up. You know, just people kept, you know, it used to be, oh my gosh, you can do a handstand against the wall. That's amazing. Oh my gosh, you can do a handstand in the middle of the room. Oh my gosh, you can press Crow to handstand and then doing the splits and lower it down. It was just bonkers! Um, so, good memories and also, if I could turn back time and make some different physical decisions, I would like that. I don't think I would have necessarily been in a situation at 42 years old where I needed shoulder surgery. I quote, my surgeon said, that I had the shoulder of a 65 year old UPS worker.
Jivana Heyman 00:10:36
Wow! That's not a compliment, I don't think.
Kathryn Budig 00:10:42
I have put myself through a lot! (Wow.) So I don't, you know, I can't say that I don't believe in it, but I do wish that there were maybe better guard rails put up in the practice. Type A people are going to type A, you know, there's no controlling that personality type, obviously, and they're going to do, and I think especially if you, I mean, I was in my 20s, I rebounded, I would get hurt, and I would be okay. And you know how you are when you're young, you do feel invincible. And you know what, you can't teach someone who's young and feels invincible that they're gonna need shoulder surgery pretty soon, from what they're doing. But I do, and I would be so interested if Maty was still alive today, to hear her take on it, because I know her approach to teaching had shifted a lot, as it does. I think, like, every decade people probably, you know, you're entering a new chapter of your life. You're evolving. Everything changes. It would have been very interesting to practice her version of Ashtanga with where she would have been now.
Jivana Heyman 00:11:55
Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, I think it's good for yoga teachers to hear from you and to have you share that openly. It's really meaningful, honestly. I really do think it means a lot, because I think there's still this idea that more is better, and it's just not always like that.
Kathryn Budig 00:12:11
No. And what does more mean to you, you know? Gosh, I know. I just feel like it's the wisdom that you garner with experience and age. And I wish I could figure out how to inject that into people who are further away from it.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:30
Well, honestly, that's actually the theme of this podcast season, in a sense, you kind of paraphrased it, which is that idea of okay, personally, I've been teaching 30 years, and what did I learn that I could actually share now? I'm asking that question of all my guests, and so maybe I could ask you that now, like, what's a story teaching or practice from your past that continues to inspire you as you move forward on your path?
Kathryn Budig 00:12:53
Gosh, I mean, so many. I remember I had a student of mine. I can't remember the exact details, because my memory is truly crap, but I do remember the feeling that I got, and she was the first student of mine, and this was probably within the first five years of teaching. I told some kind of story or gave some kind of cue in Warrior Two. Oh, I remember, I think I was talking about how I knew people felt in the pose. People were in Warrior Two, and I said something along the lines of, I know you probably hate this. I know that you are feeling this. I know that blah, blah, blah. And she pulled me aside afterwards, and she's like, "You don't know how I feel. You have no idea how I feel." And she was so tough, but so loving at the same time. And she was like, "I think as a teacher, you need to sit down and realize that your experience is not universal and work that into the way that you talk, because I was having a good day, and then you injected all this negativity into how I should be feeling in a pose. And you know what that did? It made me feel negative." And that was just such a kick to the face. Of course, it, you know, hurt my ego, and it hurt my feelings, but immediately I changed the way I spoke, and it just rewired the way that I looked at the language around teaching, and that, yes, I know we're looking for this universal way to make yoga accessible, but in the same breath that you have to be careful that you don't think that your personal experience is the universal experience, and that you're projecting that onto others. And that was a lesson that I felt extremely grateful to be given at such a young age.
Jivana Heyman 00:14:53
Yeah, I love that. That is one of the main points, actually, of Accessible Yoga, which is to not assume anyone's experience, because, we're all so unique. And I love that you got that at an early age. I'm not sure if I did.
Kathryn Budig 00:15:07
Young. She was such a gift. She was like my little yoga angel. (That's awesome.) Her name is Rowena King. If you're listening, Rowena, I love you.
Jivana Heyman 00:15:16
There you go! It's often those hard conversations that hurt a little bit that really shift the way you think about your work. And so getting honest feedback is so important. I always say the best thing you can have as a teacher is peer mentorship, where you have other yoga teachers take your classes and you give each other feedback, or even to record yourself and actually take your own class. You know, like to really listen to what you're doing and be willing to do better.
Kathryn Budig 00:15:47
So and knowing that the advice is coming from a place of they want you to do better. They want you to provide the best environment possible. I mean, that happens to me. I work in publishing, and I'm a copy editor, and I'm constantly editing and and sometimes I have authors that really love to receive these comments, and then I have other ones who are like, don't touch my work. I'm perfect. Why would you do that? [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 00:16:12
Yeah, I know that's so funny.
Kathryn Budig 00:16:16
I'm on your team. I'm on your team. I want the best for you!
Speaker 1 00:16:19
Oh my god, I love getting feedback on my writing. It's the most incredible thing, to have someone take it so seriously that they're willing to invest their time in sharing a way to make it even better. I mean, I love that. Well, I think you're doing a good job then, in editing, because it's so important. But same with teaching, like, it's so great to have feedback on our teaching so we can improve. It's so funny, that balance, I struggle with that still if I get criticism. I get so defensive inside, like my head, immediately. And then I am always trying to find that balance, like, what is the truth there? Like, that's their perspective, but what is it that they're seeing and how can I learn from that and do better?
Kathryn Budig 00:17:02
It's like learning how to navigate, I'm sure there's a term for this, but something, you know how there's a joy gap, I feel like there's a defense gap, and learning how to navigate that space between receiving criticism to applying it in a positive way moving forward, but there's that little hole that you can fall into of self pity and ego, and why don't they like me? I put so much energy into this and learning how to leap over the hole instead of falling down into it so you can get to the other side.
Speaker 1 00:17:38
Right. And, I mean, kind of that's what yoga is. I mean, is to see yourself more clearly, right? To perceive who you are and just to see your own mind and your thoughts. That's a hard thing to do, and I feel like that kind of feedback is a great way, it's a great way to do that. But I want to ask you about the publishing part, too. It's amazing what you created. I mean, it seems like you created your own publishing house, right? Your own publishing company?
Kathryn Budig 00:18:09
Yeah, I'm part of this new, innovative publishing company called Bindery Books. That's the parent company and I'm one of the founding imprints under Bindery Books, and it's Inky Phoenix Press. It's a startup, which means so much work, you know, like I get emails at 10pm Friday night, but reading has been such a huge part of my life, writing, and then moving into this editorial phase and helping to shepherd stories into the world, especially from these authors who might be overlooked in traditional publishing. It's so fulfilling. That's what I was working on right before I jumped on to this Zoom. I'll be going back into that afterwards.
Speaker 1 00:18:58
Yeah, and you're still teaching. I mean, you're still teaching yoga, you just have online classes.
Kathryn Budig 00:19:03
I am. I'm taking a little bit of a break from teaching asana right now because of my shoulder. I would normally be doing live classes online at my platform, Haus of Phoenix, but I am doing meditations and rituals and non physically oriented classes right now, this month, my wife will be my model for me, she'll be doing the class, and I'll be teaching again, but I've just been giving myself time to recover. You know, I didn't want to throw myself back into teaching too soon and be tempted to do something that I shouldn't. I just really want to be patient and heal. And my students are amazing. They understand that. So still teaching, but slowing down, just to take down a notch.
Speaker 1 00:19:52
And how has your teaching evolved? I mean, just from that. Has that shifted things, like, the shoulder injury, or is it that you had already evolved before.
Kathryn Budig 00:20:02
100%. I was talking to my chiropractor, and she was asking me what my goals are, and I kind of gave her a look, and she's like, or we don't have to talk about goals, if that isn't the right thing. Well, I just, I don't like to set goals that I'm not in control of. And I think when it comes to the physical body, I can say what my goals are, but that is not within my control. My body is going to respond at its own pace. You know, I dream of being able to just do a Sun Salutation, and it might be in your favorite manner, where I will start with doing Sun Salutations against the wall and I tell you that sounds amazing to me, to be able to do that. And so I'm not craving, you know, a 90 minute flow class or anything like that. I just want the basic foundations of a practice again, that sounds beautiful to me, just to find movement that feels good.
Jivana Heyman 00:21:10
So you're saying, in your teaching, so it sounds like that's your practice, but it's also shifted the way you teach.
Kathryn Budig 00:21:15
That is for my personal practice, but that is directly reflected within my teaching. And I think it kind of comes back to what we were talking about at the very beginning of the podcast, where, let's just take side plank, for example. I don't know if I'm ever going to teach that again. I don't know if I can, in good faith, implement that into my teaching without minimally offering many, many modifications in it. And that's like, the more you know. Like, are there people who are physically capable of doing plank and being fine? Of course there are. But now that I am so aware of all the instability in the shoulder and what postures, like, truly should not have that kind of weight bearing, you know, it is going to make me kind of go back to the drawing board with how I want to sequence and what postures I feel okay about, and what does creativity look like to me? I think the creativity as a teacher has, especially within the past four years, has been morphing and so be it.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:36
I mean, that's what I see, just from following you online and there's such a sense of fun and creativity from what you share and I really appreciate that. I just feel like so often the fun piece is left out of yoga. I don't know why. I mean, it's a serious practice, but it doesn't have to be morose, you know, there's joy. Joy is actually the goal of the practice, so why can't it be joyful in doing it as well. I think, to me, the most, I don't like to use word advanced, but yoga practitioners that I look up to are the people who are really joyful and more content. And that's like to me that, you know, they found the yoga. And so I don't know why we don't teach that way more. I love that, you like, wear costumes and you create themes, and you do, like, really...
Kathryn Budig 00:23:24
I do! I go all out!
Speaker 1 00:23:27
I mean, but isn't that? I think it's purposeful. It seems very, I mean, I'm sure it is.
Kathryn Budig 00:23:32
For sure! Because I understand for a lot of people, especially with an online format, you know, you're asking a lot of a student to open up their computer or whatever device they're using to practice from and to carve out that time with whatever is going on in their life or their space or their home, and do a practice. And that's the biggest step, right? You know, the hardest part is unrolling your mat and stepping onto it, or so they say. I know if I bring a certain level of energy, or if I'm teaching one of my movie mythology classes, and I try to dress up like the god or goddess or creature or whatever it is, immediately, when they turn the video on, they're like, okay, she's committed! So I guess I should be too! I think especially for people, if they're dreading it in any shape or form, hopefully, that I can scrape away at any sensation of dread, and it's something that people look forward to, because it's taking care of their body, spirit, and mind, and also giving them something to laugh with, or learn from, or just hitting them on different sensories. And I think that with everything going on, sometimes people need that extra support system.
Jivana Heyman 00:24:49
Yeah, exactly. Is that new, though? I mean, is that, have you always been like that? I mean.
Kathryn Budig 00:24:57
Well, yes, it was probably when I was six years old, and my mom's best friend, who was from theater, brought me over a trunk of her dress up clothes and gifted it to me. And I was like, woo hoo hoo! I do have a theater background, so I think the performative aspect is just in my blood, and then I'm a writer and I'm a storyteller, so I guess it's like there's an entertainer in me, and I want to draw people in through story and as you well, people may or may not be watching, you might just be listening, but I have very vibrant pink hair right now. You know, I'm unafraid. I like tutus as much as I like my jeans. I like, just, expression. And my moods are always different. So my physical expression is a reflection of how I'm feeling on the inside. So sometimes you'll get like, dark, moody, morose, me, and then sometimes you'll get hyper, sparkly, lots of makeup me.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:59
But like, can I ask? I mean, I guess you've probably been teaching as long as me, if not longer. I mean, I didn't ask exactly how many years, but...
Kathryn Budig 00:26:06
No, I haven't gotten to my 30 year. I started teaching in 2004.
Jivana Heyman 00:26:13
Okay, but I'm curious about if you have thoughts on that, just on your journey. I mean, what's changed for you, because I just feel like most people listening are yoga teachers. And I know that it's such a challenge to find your your voice and your way of teaching, and if you go through a lineage at all, then you feel like, oh, you're told to teach a particular way. And then there's all this, like, safety stuff. And now there's like, Accessible Yoga and trauma informed yoga, and people always telling you what to do. Yeah, I'm just curious, yeah. How did that happen? I don't know.
Kathryn Budig 00:26:49
Well, you know, I mean, I think it's great that there are so many different outlets, because there's so many different people, and everyone has a different desire and need, and I think it's lovely that there's so much to choose from. I know I'm repeating this over and over again, but I think a lot of it is just experience, aging. But I think a big part of it, for me, is moving into more of this online, viral experience where I don't feel the pressure of being in a studio, like, I don't feel the pressure of what are the other teachers teaching, what do the students want from me in real time? You know, I've removed myself from the travel circuit. I've truly removed myself from, I do feel like I live on the outskirts of the community now, which I love, because it allows me to just do what I want to do, you know, like, I don't have any pressures to to be something. I get to just be like, what inspires me? This, and this is what I want to teach, and this is what I want to talk about, And there's so much freedom in that to truly listen to what, because, I mean, I do think that's the impetus of a good class is like it has to come from a place within you.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:12
It's interesting to hear you say the outskirts, because I actually found that through COVID, there almost was no longer a yoga community. Like there was no longer like, one kind of insular...(It shattered it.) Yeah, because there was before, there was kind of like a in crowd who did get to travel and do their thing. And, I mean, I was traveling, but very much on my own, but there was, like, kind of the known, like you were one of the big names during that time. But then it kind of, yeah, like, dissolved. And, I mean, kind of amazing, right?
Kathryn Budig 00:28:46
Gone! Yeah, I know. And I'm even talking to people, and I'll, I'll be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, Seane Corn. And they say, who? I'm like, whoa, what? You know just icons. Like, icons!
Jivana Heyman 00:29:02
We don't have any anymore. I don't think there are any.
Kathryn Budig 00:29:04
It's just been a couple years! I'm like, what happened? It's wild!
Speaker 1 00:29:09
I mean, I kind of love that. I mean, I love it, because I'm just kind of anti establishment, in general, like, my beliefs. So I just love that there's no more icons. Like, I really think that's been problematic in the history of yoga. So my hope is that people will find their own way and their own communities. And it feels like there's a lot more of that. I have been traveling a little bit now, and they're really beautiful communities out there, but they're more like local, intimate communities, and then, you know, online ones too. There's that, like you have, and so many people have, like their group, like their people. (The underbelly, yeah.) And that feels really sweet. It feels a little more empowering, or like there's more choice. There's not 10 teachers and these are the people you have to study with. You know, it doesn't feel like that anymore.
Kathryn Budig 00:29:59
In a weird way these online communities, like Tamika's, feel somehow closer knit than my memory of the in person. I would have to really sit with that and parse it apart. But I think that's the thing about Haus of Phoenix. I always wanted that tightness, but I never thought that could be created when we're remote, you know, where we're all in different places. And this, my family, my I mean, I call them family. They are my family. Like this community on Haus of Phoenix is unlike anything I ever would have dreamed of.
Speaker 1 00:30:43
I don't know if you're willing to take that on, but I'm saying, you were one of them. You were one of those people that were inside, I think, I hope that's fair to say. So that must have been interesting to experience the kind of dissolving and then recreating.
Kathryn Budig 00:30:59
I mean, I can't say I liked it either. I mean, I obviously my ego liked it, you know? I mean, I loved being loved. Like, it feels good to hear that your workshop is sold out and that people want to be a part of it. But on the flip side of that same coin, I had so much anxiety and going into these workshops, because people came in with expectations, and they came in thinking they knew who I was. You know, they had a story about me, and I just would be riddled with this anxiety of, like, can I deliver? Am I going to be what they want to be? Are they going to be disappointed? And I don't miss that. I really, really don't miss that, because that's not my job. My job isn't to fulfill someone's expectations. My job is to teach what's important to me and not give a fuck beyond that. You know, it's like, if you don't like me, fine. There's another teacher for you, but I have to do...every teacher needs to teach what is important to them, instead of being loved, trying to be accepted, and popularity culture does that to you. You will just try to fit in.
Speaker 1 00:32:11
Yeah, well, that's what I was going to say, is what I love about you sharing that, and I appreciate you saying that, is that I do think a lot of, I could be wrong, but I think a lot of teachers are still trying to get to some place that I don't think really exists, or that isn't really that great, either. A level of like, I don't know if it's fame or just being recognized, that I think that's kind of like set up as some kind of goal in the yoga world that I don't think is very useful or effective. And I think that what's happened is kind of, now that it's gone, I feel like there's more freedom. And so just to me, it's powerful to hear you say that, because it's just like I can let go of it again, like I'm always trying to let go of that. Any celebrity or fame in the yoga world is a little bit of a distraction from, I think, from the practice.
Kathryn Budig 00:32:59
It's impossible not to because, I mean, I feel like the first wave of celebrity teachers you're looking at, like the Shiva Rea, the Seane Corns, Bryan Kest, that kind of generation. And then there was the generation after them, which was the group that I was part of. And then it got to like, the Instagram people, and then COVID, and then poof! And I'm okay with it. In a way, I loved COVID For just dissolving everything. I was ready to stop. Like, I said the anxiety, I was like, I don't want to be on the road. I don't want to be doing this anymore. Like even, you know, filming at the studio that I used to work at before Haus of Phoenix, like, I hated being on camera. I just, oh, I hated it! I hated it. I hated it. But I am a performer, so I'm good at it. Like I know how to get the energy and be in front of people. But meanwhile, my insides are like dissolving, like acid, and oh, it feels good to just do what you want to do.
Speaker 1 00:34:08
I just hope people are hearing that, because I just want to say, if you're a yoga teacher out there, like, that's it. Find your people, find your voice. Don't worry about it. I feel like that's how you succeed as a yoga teacher, and it's not like, niching down. It's just literally, it's like, be yourself. I mean, that's all it is. Truly be yourself, like, let yourself express you, rather than trying to conform or be popular. I mean, that's kind of the nature of, I think, like, life, right? We're learning that lesson slowly. Hopefully as we get older, we learn it more.
Kathryn Budig 00:34:40
Hopefully! Not all of us, but hopefully.
Jivana Heyman 00:34:43
But hearing it from you is powerful, and it means a lot to me, actually, it really does, and I really appreciate you sharing that. And it's amazing to see how happy you are now, you have created your own space, it's yours too, right, like you get to do it the way you want. And that's just really great. I'm just so happy for you.
Kathryn Budig 00:35:04
I would like to share this with you, because I think this will be important. So, I was injured for probably a solid year and a half before I had the shoulder surgery and I spent a year and a half tracing my tail, trying to figure out what was going on, really hoping surgery was not on the docket for me. And so obviously my physical ability was going down, down, down, down, down, down, down. And, you know, I would modify and then I was like, I'm not going to be on my arms at all, eventually. And so my new classes that I was adding to Haus of Phoenix were always shoulder modified. I would verbally give cues to people like to do a Chaturanga if they wanted to, but I got to a point of just paranoia, right? Like, oh my gosh, am I going to lose students because they want a different kind of yoga, and I can't give that to them. And I remember going on to our discord channel for Haus of Phoenix, just being like, hey, I love you all. Thank you for being patient with me. You know, I know classes, my teaching has changed a lot and that, and it was just really beautiful because they were like, "Are you kidding me? We love it. It doesn't matter like what you're teaching. It's the energy that you bring. We love that!" And I think that's a really important message for teachers to hear, that it's very little to do with the asana at the end of the day. I mean, yes, there's always going to be that group of people who are like, give me hard shit or whatever, but it was so validating to hear my people say, like, whatever you want to teach, just be there for us. And it was great. It was truly so redeeming, and it's giving me permission to take a step back and work on my healing and not feel like I have to keep creating, like, it's okay for me to go in and take care of myself. And then I'll come back and who knows what I'll teach, you know, but it'll be what feels good.
Speaker 1 00:37:13
I love that. That's so sweet. I'm so happy. I'm so happy for you. I'm glad the surgery went well, that you're feeling better, and that you found your thing. I just feel like it's just, it's all good. It just seems perfect and I wish that for every yoga teacher, to do that, to be okay with yourself and your body and be honest with it, too, like, about where you're at and what you're doing. It's really challenging. I had injured my back a little bit this week. I took this really intense yoga class, I was in New York last week, and I don't usually do that kind of practice. It was yoga/pilates, basically. I strained my back and then the next day, I was in a training and of course my mind went through that thing, like, oh, I'm coming in with an injury. Like, I'm not good, you know, like, I had that whole...and this is Accessible Yoga, by the way! And like, of course, that's exactly what I need to do. And at first I said to them, is like, look, I hurt myself. So, you know, this is...and I it's like, great. I don't know how to say it, but just like, honesty is the essence of our practice, and just being ourselves makes it better.
Kathryn Budig 00:38:20
And who taught us that teachers need a perfect, capable body? Like seriously, where did that myth even perpetuate? Because every time I'm injured, I remind myself there are plenty of people out there with the same injury or something incredibly similar who are going to be thrilled that I can't do this, because then I'm going to be able to lead them through a practice that they can do. And that is so beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 00:38:50
Yes. So, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Anything else you want to share?
Kathryn Budig 00:38:55
Oh, gosh. I mean, there's so much to share. I think that, for any newer teachers, I mean, not even necessarily new, but any teachers about being yourself, there should...I don't like the word should, but ideally, there is no separation between who you are while you were teaching and who you are outside of the yoga room. And there's no, like, time to put on my yoga teacher hat. Ideally, you are the same person all the time, just all the time. And it's very important when students ask you a question that you do not have an answer to, instead of trying to make something up that sounds smart. Just tell them. That's a great question, and I don't have the answer to that, but I'm going to explore that now. Thank you. It's okay to not know. It's okay to not know.
Speaker 1 00:39:53
It's okay to not know, it's okay to be human. I love that. To be yourself, I think that's the best way to teach, is to share yourself with people. I don't want to keep going because I don't want to take too much of your time, but I just want to say, it's interesting to me that I found in my writing, I can actually do that more even than when I'm teaching, like, teaching and speaking. Because I feel like, when I'm teaching, there's still something about trying to get this certain message across, but there's something somehow with writing, there's a chance for more reflection. And so I would just say, for me, I found that writing has really forced me to be really honest. Like, I've had to say, okay, is this true and what really happened? How was I really feeling? What did I do? And when did I make a mistake? And so I find in my writing, I get to share and explore that, even more I get to do in my trainings.
Kathryn Budig 00:40:54
It's a dynamic medium, and the potential to edit, you know, not edit yourself as in, course correct or fix something, but edit as in, dive deeper, dive deeper.
Speaker 1 00:41:10
Oh my god, this is amazing. Thank you so much. Thanks, Kathryn, thank you for your time.
Kathryn Budig 00:41:14
Always so lovely to be in your company. Thanks for thinking of me.
Jivana Heyman 00:41:18
Thanks for sharing with us. All right. Take care.
Kathryn Budig 00:41:21
Mwah!
Jivana Heyman 00:42:08
In some of my recent teacher trainings, people have been asking me if I think that yoga teachers need to have liability insurance, and I always answer yes, very strongly, because I think it's important that we protect ourselves. It also gives me a chance to recommend beYogi insurance, which is the company I've used for years, and also a sponsor of our podcast. So thank you beYogi for giving me peace of mind. I appreciate the fact that you cover live classes, both in person and online, and also pre recorded content. It really helps. And I'm not the only one who likes them. I know they have over 1,300 five-star reviews, that's pretty amazing. So if you're looking for insurance, check out the link in our shownotes. There's a discount for you with beYogi insurance.
Speaker 1 00:42:50
Welcome back everyone. Hey, Deanna!
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:43:07
Hey, Jivana, how's it going?
Jivana Heyman 00:43:09
Good. Thanks for being here for our Q&A. So what did you think of that episode?
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:43:15
I was so looking forward to this episode because Kathryn was my online teacher for years, in the mid aughts or the teen aughts. I don't know what you would say, but I practiced with her online, and it was fun to hear you two talk and see what came out of the conversation. I love practicing with Kathryn.
Jivana Heyman 00:43:37
Yeah, she's an amazing teacher. That's so awesome that she was one of your teachers. That's great.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:43:44
It was fun to, like as someone who's practiced with her online, just to hear her kind of pull back the curtain on what was happening, in her train of thought as she was teaching online at the time. And a lot of what you talked about is like, focusing on being creative as a teacher always came through for me in her classes. They were a lot of fun. And her creativity, like, really came through and really was motivating. It really did bring me back to the mat.
Jivana Heyman 00:44:14
Her creativity brought you back to the mat. Or was it, was it her creativity, or was it her authenticity, or something like that? Like, a quality that she was bringing. Do you know what I mean?
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:44:14
That's a good question, especially because you two talked about self expression. Yeah, I felt like I was hanging out with her, right? Like, that quality of like, oh, this is just like spending an hour with Kathryn Budig, and we're also practicing yoga.
Speaker 1 00:44:41
I think it's an important distinction, because I feel like we can all do that. We can't all be like her. We can't all be quite as creative as she is. I mean, if people don't know her work and how she teaches, she's incredibly creative. She has like, these really interesting themes and fun things that she brings into class. But there's another aspect to what she's doing, which is just being herself, which I think is a lesson for all of us. And it's funny, because when we're being trained to be teachers, we're often being trained to lose our personal voice and personality, almost to like be this kind of neutral, I don't know what. I mean, depends on the lineage we're trained in, but a lot of traditional yoga lineages kind of train you just to almost be robotic and just share the teachings in a very neutral way. And I think that can work for some students. But I also feel, in the end that being yourself as much as you can without crossing that line, that boundary, is kind of the key. Like, you don't have to share everything about your yourself, but being honest is essential.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:45:57
That's so true, and it kind of touches on a few things you two talked about, about crossing the threshold into online teaching in the height of the COVID era. In that, like, I think when you practiced with teachers online, or via, like, you know, I think of VHS era, of any sort of yoga experience where it was very neutral, right? Like it really felt neutral when you practiced with a teacher via like a videotape, whereas I felt like, when I started practicing with Kathryn, it was different, because she was a component in the teachings as well. I don't think she overshadowed the teachings either. It's a fine balance to create space for the teachings to take root, and to also make space for yourself as a teacher. And I think that's why, like you two talked about, like, how students have kind of found their online communities. Now that's a big part of it. I think a lot of teachers were able to create a community that they maybe wanted to see in the world.
Speaker 1 00:47:00
Yeah, it's interesting because we also talked about, I mean, she has a really unique place in the history of yoga, because I think she was one of, like, the yoga stars. Like, she mentioned yoga icons, and she was one. I mean, she still is. But, you know how there were these, like huge names that almost became yoga celebrities, honestly. And shifting online kind of allowed that to go away in a way, which is great. Like you said, people could find their community. But also I think it created a more intimate experience, where those celebrities and their...I mean, and I think part of being a celebrity, is that you have kind of a false persona around you that may not be the fullness of who you are. I think that kind of fell apart too. And I think that's an amazing thing. Like, I don't think we need that. Like I said in the episode, we don't need icons. We need we need to access the teachings in a way that is effective for us as individuals. And I think that can come through all different kinds of teachers. But to me, I want a teacher who is really aligned with the teachings and not so focused on building themselves that it becomes about them
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:48:30
Exactly. It's interesting because, I mean, I would say that maybe the the celebrities in the yoga like community, the broad community and yoga culture, kind of, you know, that also shifted online a little bit. Like that's changed as well now, but that's sort of like where it's morphing now, where maybe people feel like they have a parasocial relationship with teachers they're following on Instagram. And maybe, you know, maybe that is the fullness of who they are, maybe it's not. But it's interesting how that shifts.
Speaker 1 00:49:03
Yeah, I mean, I guess there's still celebrity teachers out there, but it just feels like more of an open field. I feel like more people have, in a way, it's through social media that we can access many more voices. It feels like a more level playing field. And I don't know why. I think in the past, it's hard to remember those days, but it was kind of pre online yoga, when it was all in person and almost all in person, and it's like studios controlled who the teachers were, and it was a circuit, and only certain people got in that circuit. And I remember because I wanted that, like I tried to be and I was unknown and I couldn't get involved in that world, and it felt really exclusive and kind of horrible. And maybe people feel that way now, but I don't know. I don't feel like that's not the way, I mean that's one way to be successful now, is to teach in studios. But that's not the only way to be a yoga teacher anymore, like there's many other paths. So I just feel like things are so much more open and diverse in terms of who our teachers are.
Speaker 1 00:49:12
It's true. And that's a good thing. And I think the teachers who are able to hold space, in a way that's authentic, that really levels the playing field within a space itself. Like, building true community, I think those are the teachers who have maybe thrived in the last several years, because they've been creating truly authentic, supportive spaces, rather than, like, top down celebrity model.
Speaker 1 00:50:41
Exactly. I mean, I really hope that's the case, and I feel it. And I think it's hard for us to remember sometimes how things were, but it really was top down. I mean, not only was that kind of inherited through some of the guru culture of yoga, but also it was kind of like Western celebrity thing too. I don't want to name names, but there were just a group of, maybe, I don't know, not even 10 teachers that you like, had to study with. And I just don't know if that's really true anymore. I think I said that in the episode. The only thing I just want to mention, one thing she talked about that really stayed with me was about a student who told her something like, you don't know how I feel. I just, I love that reflection. That's a theme that comes up a lot in Accessible Yoga, which I think I mentioned in the episode to her, but it's like, I love this idea that, you know, as teachers, we're not there to tell the students how to feel, and I think that we really have to be careful about that and really give space for people to have their own experience, and that's how we can create more accessible experiences. So I just love her willingness to share that criticism. I thought that was really brave of her to say.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:50:41
It was a good lesson for her or any teacher to receive early on, too, because it really does change your language and classes and how you may frame a class, Because you may want to offer a class that offers a particular benefit, but maybe, you know, it may not go that way for all of your students.
Speaker 1 00:52:16
The thing about Kathryn I've loved always is how she's so open about her personal challenges, like her injuries. She shared about a little bit with us today, in this episode is, it's like yoga teachers aren't superheroes, and we have real lives and real problems and and pain and suffering too. And, you know, yoga doesn't necessarily take all those physical challenges away. And I think that was really powerful for me to hear from her, you know, just the sharing about her shoulder.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:52:53
And like she brought up, if you're a teacher and you're injured and you're offering a particular kind of class, there will be students who want to take that class because of that, because they're experiencing similar issues or injuries, and you know, they need that as well. And so, you know, it's beneficial to all, I think, when the teacher's authentic about where they are.
Speaker 1 00:53:14
Yeah, there's a whole conversation in yoga teaching about niching down and like finding your specialty, but I feel like actually, honesty will do it for you. Just be honest, be authentic, and you'll find your people, and they'll find you. Yeah, any other thoughts about it, that you wanted to share?
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:53:40
It was just a great episode. I hope everyone enjoyed listening to it, and I'm so glad you two chatted.
Jivana Heyman 00:53:47
Yeah, me too. Thanks, Kathryn, thanks for talking with me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:53:50
Well, we have a few submissions to share today that I'm excited to talk about. The first one is a story share from Linda, who is an Accessible Yoga instructor. Linda writes, "Two years ago, while in deep Shavasana, I had an opening which prompted a major life change. Quiet mind, stillness, and open heart revealed two truths to me. First, I would be well served to take the coaching that I offer to my own yoga students, follow your inner wisdom. With that realization, I saw my second truth, the spiritual system I was in and the relationship with my beloved spiritual teacher were no longer, quote, unquote, working for me. I had been enmeshed in the practice for decades, was a sangha leader, and was being groomed to be a fully authorized teacher in my own right. But I had to turn away from and distance myself from the harm that I was experiencing during spiritual training. Shavasana revealed my needs to listen to my own voice, to embrace my own wisdom, and make my own path. Now I recognize the day that I resigned from that spiritual system as my personal liberation day. All of that from a little Shavasana. Moral the story, beware the tyranny of the mind."
Speaker 1 00:55:01
Wow, thanks, Linda. That is really powerful, and I can totally relate on so many levels. I think, wow, that sounds like something you should share publicly. Like, maybe you should write an article about that or something, or maybe you have but, and I appreciate you sharing with us and our listeners. I mean, first, there's so many things I want to say. First, Shavasana, you know, just as such a powerful practice. It's so underrated, it's such a challenging practice. And yet, if we can get quiet, we're experiencing yoga, right? That's what Patanjali says. "Stillness of mind is yoga." And so in Shavasana, we have access to that. And then Patanjali says, in the next sutra he says, "Then, we abide in our true nature." And that's where we get to experience the truth of who we are and I think that's what you're really doing. So in a way, you were in the state of yoga there. Recognizing, I mean, that first statement that you need to do the things that you're telling your students to do, I can totally relate to that. I think probably most yoga teachers teach because we're trying to learn. And I know for me that everything that I'm saying to other people, I'm really just saying to myself and trying to remember. So that's why I love teaching so much. It's like constantly reminding me what of what I need to do. And yeah, and I'm sorry about your tradition being rough. I also come from a lineage with abuse, and I had to walk away, and it's just a hard thing to do. But you know, one day you just recognize that it's not healthy, and that's all you can do, just walk away. So anyway, thanks, Linda.
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:56:45
Thanks, Jivana. We have another message from Dorothy Flora, who is a yoga instructor. Dorothy writes, I am enjoying the deep dive into the Sutras. As a yoga instructor, for the past year, I realized that we can get caught up in image and expectations of ourselves that we can lose our way.
Jivana Heyman 00:57:06
Yeah. Mic drop. [laughing] I mean, what did she say? "We can get caught up in an image and expectation of ourselves, and we can lose our way." Well, yeah, I mean, that's kind of what yoga is for. And so I guess the real challenge is, how do we, as teachers, how do we sustain a practice? And that's what I kind of love, like that following what Linda just shared. Because I think what Linda was getting at is so important for teachers to remember, that we need to take our own medicine. You know, it's like doctors, actually, what is that expression of like the cobblers children have no shoes? What is that expression?
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:57:59
I have never heard that, but now I'm googling it.
Jivana Heyman 00:58:01
Okay, I could of made that up, but it's like, basically, it's like, you don't serve at home. You know what I mean? It's like, first we serve ourselves, and serving ourselves means actually doing our practice. I always use this analogy, and it's a little bit cliche, but like, the way the body works is that the heart first sends blood to itself. The fresh, oxygenated blood goes to the heart muscle first, before it goes to the brain and the rest of the body. And I think that's a really beautiful analogy, thatwe have to serve ourselves, and then we have the energy to serve others. And I don't mean serve yourself, just through self care, but I mean actually doing your practice. And I have a feeling that's what Dorothy is getting at. Like, yeah, what do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 00:58:47
Yeah. I think it also kind of relates to Kathryn's conversation. If you're getting caught up in an image and expectation of yourself, intead sort of getting to the essence of who you really are, maybe, and it's kind of like looking for external validation. It's kind of like, oh, is this what my students want? I'm just going to give them what they want, and maybe not what aligns with my heart and what I feel like sharing today. But it's like, oh, I need to keep delivering Chaturangas, or else no one's going to show up, and kind of neglecting the heart of yoga.
Jivana Heyman 00:59:17
Yeah! I got excited, because when you said that, it made me realize, like some something I struggle with is like the reviews I get. I think all public facing teachers, we have different places we get reviewed, whether it's like on our own sites, like we offer evaluations after all of our programs in Accessible Yoga, and there's also like evaluations available through, you know, Yoga Alliance and other public studio classes have, like, Class Pass evaluations or Google reviews and all that. And it's so dangerous. It's so dangerous because, on the one hand, I think it's we could potentially learn something from those like, what we could do better. But at the same time, I feel like those are other people's expectations too. So it's like, how do we balance serving others with trying to please them? Do you know what I mean? Like, that's the danger. It's like, yeah, you can be of service, and people may not like what you're offering, you know, but you serve the best, serve authentically, like Kathryn said. That doesn't mean people are gonna like it, but does that mean I change? Like, whenever I read a negative review or comment, some part of me is like, well, do I need to take that in or not?
Jivana Heyman 01:00:39
My teacher used to say, when you're learning about yoga that it's like a Cow, and what a cow does is that it basically swallows food twice. Cows have two stomachs, and so they chew their cud, which is kind of like ruminating, or like meditating on the teachings that they've absorbed. So you've learned something, you meditate on it or reflect on it, and then you spit out the things that aren't good. And so, like a cow will spit out, like sticks or stones that are in there, whatever the grass that they're eating, or, hay before they actually swallow it. You can reject certain things, we don't have to take it all in. And so I think it's about refining our own self awareness and recognizing ourselves in a sense, without allowing other people to shape that or decide what that is and who you are. Like, how do you know yourself without others? And maybe that's through meditation and yoga practice, but also it's through spiritual community, sangha, when you have supportive yoga friends or other yoga teachers who are there to reflect back with you, so that you're not reliant on either students or people you don't know telling you who you are, but you're learning about yourself through your practice and also through engaged conversations with people that you trust. (Relationships.) Relationships, right, exactly, that's the word. But I mean both are true, like, in a relationship, through your practice, and also, yeah, meaningful relationships. And I mean, it's not that students aren't meaningful relationships and that strangers on the internet might be meaningful relationships too, but, you know, I think we have to take all of that with a grain of salt
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:02:52
This is where discernment comes in.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:02:54
Yeah, there you go. I mean, I get some of the wackiest comments sometimes on my posts, and I'm like, you know what? I have a lot of followers. I don't know who they are. Why do I have to listen to those people? I mean, I want to, I want to be in a relationship with them, but I have to be careful that I'm not basing my self worth or self image on what strangers think about me. Anyway, this is more of my personal reflection. I mean, I don't that was what Dorothy was asking or saying.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:03:22
No, thank you for that meditation. Yeah. I think that's important. With so much feedback and people are able to comment or, like, send messages anonymously, it's good to have that sort of awareness and insight.
Speaker 1 01:03:34
Yeah and going back to the Sutras, I mean, I guess I just want to plug my book, Yoga Revolution, that is really what I was trying to share in that book. Like, I think exactly what Dorothy is getting at, which is trying to look at not just the Sutras, but a few other texts, mostly the Bhagavad Gita, and really reflect on, how do I use these teachings to understand myself now to improve my inner relationship and make me more effective in the world? I think that's what yoga is for. And I would be curious, Dorothy, what you think of my book. I would love for you to take a look at it. I think the Sutras are amazing, but it can be hard to do on our own, you know, to take that journey.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:04:22
One last parting question for you, Jivana, are you leaning on a particular translation of the Sutras right now?
Jivana Heyman 01:04:28
It's funny, yeah, because I made a post about the Sutras, someone was asking me that. That's a really hard question for me, because, you know, I was trained by Swami Satchidananda, and he translated the Sutras, and he used them so much in his teaching that they were, like, drilled into me. Like, I don't know how to describe that, when I read the Sutras, I actually have memorized so many of them, because that's how we learned. And I look at other translations all the time, and I want to be open to them, and I am, and I learn things from other translations all the time, but it's literally, like, the the way I was trained was to understand them through the words of Swami Satchidananda. And that's hard, because it turned out he was abusive and had sexual relationships with his students. So it's like, I don't want his voice in my head. But that's just what happens, I think, is that we're so influenced by our teachers. And I had studied with him for so many years, and, you know, my formative years, so I don't know, I'm open, you know. Oh, so much to say about it. You know, Shyam Ranganathan translated the Sutras, that's the Penguin edition, Penguin Books. That's really interesting. I really appreciate Nischala Joy Devi, she just did an expanded translation of all four books, all four chapters of the Sutras, which is really amazing. And she translates them, she says, quote, from a woman's perspective. And I think what she does really well is make them positive. She kind of turns it into positive statements.
Jivana Heyman 01:04:31
And of course, Edwin Bryant is kind of masterful regarding his academic approach and what he has done in his translation is he brings in the Vyasa, which is the first commentary. So he's really showing more of a historic perspective, which I think is really useful for people who study the Sutras. And I also mentioned one last one, which is that, another student of Swami Satchidananda, Jaganath Carrera, did the translation of the Sutras that is not well known, that's called Inside the Yoga Sutras, and that, I think, is just remarkable, because it's so user friendly, like, he's really, he's really taken the time to make the teachings practical and effective, I think. I think for beginners, I would almost start with that one, if I'm being totally honest, Inside the Yoga Sutras by Jaganath Carrera. But again, there's so many. There's so many. I mean, I'm looking at my bookshelf, I think I have like, 15 at least. And I mean, there's so many more that I don't have. And this is just English and of course people who are looking for different language translations have different ones. Well, I'll say one last thing, you got me going, but just that, one thing that's really important to me about translation is that it does actually share the original text, and some of them don't. And I think it's really nice when you can read the sutra, you know, whether it's that part being translated, or whether the words are in Sanskrit. I think it doesn't matter so much, but it's nice if then there's commentary, because I think sometimes it's just all commentary, and we don't even see what the original sutra was. Thanks for asking Deanna.
Speaker 1 01:06:19
No, incredible resources, and we'll put all of the links in our show notes.
Jivana Heyman 01:06:58
Yeah, there's so many more. I know I want to say others, but I'll stop.
Deanna Michalopoulos 01:07:33
There'll be a part two, everyone. Don't worry.
Jivana Heyman 01:08:09
We need to talk about the Gita too. Yeah, all right. (Part Three.) Part three, yeah. Well, thanks, Deanna, thanks for being here and thank you to Linda and Dorothy for those great comments that they shared, and, of course, to Kathryn for talking with me. And we'll see you all next time. (See you all next time.) Okay, bye.
