Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, which is known as Santa Barbara, California. It's a beautiful, windy spring day. I've been doing a lot of gardening. So I'm a little tired because I've been out there digging in the dirt the last few days. I mean, gardening is basically my favorite thing after yoga. So I'm very happy. I'm also really happy that you're here, and I'm really excited to share this conversation with you, with Shawn Moore. He's a really interesting guest. He has a lot to say and I'm sure you'll learn a lot from this episode. In particular, I love that Shawn has such a serious and long background in higher education, and so he brings a special perspective to the art of teaching. And I think sometimes as yoga teachers, we forget to reflect or consider what it means to be a teacher. What does it mean to hold space and to be a leader? Which is what Shawn talks about. So I'm excited to have you listen to that. Shawn also has a background in Buddhism and sound healing, and he leads trainings on sound healing and restorative yoga himself and Yoga Nidra, he's also one of our guest teachers in the upcoming restorative yoga series that we're offering through Accessible Yoga. And I'm really excited about this series. It's a workshop series where we have ten guest teachers, all offering two hour workshops that are about half lecture, half practice on how we can make restorative yoga accessible to all different populations. And it's such a diverse group. You know, we ran this a few years ago, and I learned a lot, and I'm really excited we've added a few more guests for this program this time, so you can find out more in the show notes, there's a link or go to accessibleyoga.org. And Shawn will be talking more about this, about holding space and taking care of ourselves when we're holding the space, when we're the leader, when we're the teacher. It's something that I think can serve all of us, to reflect on that more. So let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Shawn Moore.
Jivana Heyman 2:58
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Jivana Heyman 4:27
Okay, welcome everyone, and thank you so much to Shawn. Hi, Shawn, thanks for being here.
Shawn Moore 4:34
Hello, hello. Thanks for having me. As always, anytime we can get together to have a conversation and chat, I'm always with it. So yeah, thank you for the invitation.
Jivana Heyman 4:44
Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like I haven't talked to you enough, but I appreciate whenever I'm with you, I learn a lot. You've been on faculty for a bunch of our programs in the past and actually one of them we're offering again, which is our restorative series, and you're going to come back there, which I'm really excited about. And, well, I've learned a lot from you. Part of it, I think, is that because you know my experience has been so much in yoga, and I know you have a lot of experience in Buddhism too, so I feel like I always learn about that. But anyway, I'll let you say hi. Maybe you could just introduce yourself a little bit since I had already introduced you.
Shawn Moore 5:19
Yeah, for those that don't know me, my name is Shawn Moore. I've been in the yoga space for almost close to a decade. For me, I always like to say I specialize in the stillness based practices, practices like restorative yoga, Yoga Nidra, sound healing, meditation, all practices for me that helped me create spaces for leaders to get still, to be able to lead much more skillfully in the work that they do. And so, yeah, that's been showing up in a lot of different ways. One of the ways, you know, I'm always excited to be a part of the trainings and be on faculty. I think that's probably one of my favorite ways to lead in the whole space, is really to hold space for the space holders to really sort of help folks connect. And that really just connects to my education background, of really being able to hold space for other leaders, help those leaders really sort of develop their skill set to do what they do really well with the communities that they serve.
Jivana Heyman 6:23
Yeah. Can you talk about that a bit, if people don't know that you work in higher education or have in the past, right? Like supporting, do just you support the students in those programs, or what is it?
Shawn Moore 6:35
Yeah, so prior to, well, not even prior to, I would say there was a point where my work in mindfulness and yoga was running simultaneous to my career in higher ed and student affairs. I've been working in that field for almost...I'm aging myself now, almost 20 years. I don't know if you get like that, where you like, say, the same time always, and it's like no times move forward. It's not still five years, it's like no, it's actually been almost two decades. But I've been working in higher education for almost two decades, particularly in student affairs and so really sort of helping students build their capacity, find out what they do really well in the world, and build the confidence around leaning into the work that they do, and so that's really been in specializing around leadership. How do we shape leadership in a way that isn't just that stock, thinking intentionally about how to say this, not that stock, business leadership, but like actual like social impact leadership of if I'm holding space or connecting in this work, how am I leaving the world or my community in a much better place? And so in higher ed and student affairs, I've created several leadership programs and certifications, and that's some of the work that actually really helped me as I transitioned into the wellness space, of building that, or bringing that framework and bringing that, a lot of that philosophy and adult education over to this space to be able to help wellness leaders do what they do really well as well.
Jivana Heyman 8:17
I mean, I love that because I've been thinking a lot about that, that yoga teachers are leaders, and I think a lot of yoga teachers don't see themselves that way. They don't recognize that they are in a leadership position. Oftentimes, I think it's because a lot of people kind of fall into yoga teaching, just out of a passion for the yoga and not really necessarily from the teaching side. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like, I don't know, so I've been thinking about how in yoga, there isn't a lot of discussion about what it means to be in that role as a leader, and also how to be a teacher, just separate from the yoga. But like, what does it mean to actually be a teacher of something, you know, I think that's something I've really sat with a lot, especially with my last book, which is about teaching Accessible Yoga, and I train teachers all the time, but I feel like that's almost a different set of skills than yoga. It's not, I mean, there's overlap, obviously, but I just wonder if you have thoughts about that?
Shawn Moore 9:20
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. This is actually part of the conversation for the Restorative Yoga Training. (I think I knew that, yeah.) Yeah, nice little plug. But I'm very, very big on emphasizing the idea that, like, if you are holding space for people, you are a leader, like no if, ands, buts, about that, and with that comes an inherent level of responsibility. And so as yoga teachers and meditation teachers, wellness practitioners, whether you teach classes in a studio, whether you have one on one clients, no matter how you shake this up, you are a leader. And how do we yes, we want to be great and proficient in how to guide people safely through us and but then also, there's the additional component. And I've always been thinking about like better ways. I hate the term soft skills, because I think it doesn't do that set of competencies justice, but for all intents and purposes, like, how do we put as much effort on helping people move through a sequence in a yoga class as much as we do with what does it mean to really hold space for people, and not only hold space, but do that in a way, with a level of care and accessibility as well.
Jivana Heyman 10:44
Yeah, I mean, I don't mean for you to give away your whole presentation. (Oh, you're totally fine.) But I'm just curious if you could go a little more just into that. Because, I mean, like, what are those soft skills? I mean, you probably have so much more experience and understanding of that...like, I've had to learn it as I go again, because I came in through the yoga, do you know what I mean, like, rather than just as a teacher of something.
Shawn Moore 11:11
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I would say is I wouldn't take it too far past what we do with with yoga and even yoga philosophy, right? I think that the art of listening, I think, is one of the big skills that if we hone in on that, that allows us to really sort of show up in a much more fully present way with the folks in which we're leading in our classes. I think that idea of concept, when we think about being on our mat, listening is really key and critical, right, we're listening to our bodies, we're noticing what's happening in this moment. But if we transfer that skills, are we listening to what's happening in the room, the things that are said and unsaid? Are we navigating those in ways in which people feel physically and psychologically safe, right? So even thinking about that from a yoga philosophy perspective, this idea of fine tuning that ability to listen, I think, is one of the bigger ways in which, as space holders and leaders, we can really make those skills work for us simultaneously as well. But it's really about ensuring or reminding ourselves that we are wearing that hat, and that's part of what we do, right? We can have the best sequence, we can have the most bomb playlist for our class, but are we really dialing into what's happening on the mat for everybody, from the moment when they enter the space to the moment that they're leaving, that folks feel fully seen, supported and held in so many different ways?
Jivana Heyman 12:42
Yeah, and it seems like if we don't do that, there's potential danger that occurs, like, not only to the students, but to us too. One of the things I talk about a lot is boundaries, you know, like how to find boundaries as a yoga teacher. And I feel like, I don't mean in just a protective way, like to keep something bad from happening, but also to allow good things to happen within that space. I guess, also to avoid problems, but that's what I thought when you said that. If you're not a leader, if you don't see yourself as a leader, how do you hold boundaries? How do you keep people safe and also avoid going too far? I don't know.
Shawn Moore 13:23
Yeah, and I think that that's where our responsibility, as leaders in the wellness space, to be that much more intentional with our personal practice, I think, is important. And this is a bit of what I'll talk about in that workshop, but the idea of like our rest practice is that much more important when we're holding space for other people. There's a quote by I think David White, he's a poet, and says, like, "Tired eyes see the world tired." And I'm probably mixing the words up, but that's the mentality of the quote, like, tired eyes see the world tired. And so if we aren't doing our own work to take care of ourselves, to be well rested, to be well connected, to our own sense of personal power, our own level of connection, then when we get into the room with other people, our level and capacity to be with somebody fully is that much more diminished, and so that's the reason why we have to be so much more bullish on our care practice, so that we aren't inflicting or perpetuating a sense of harm, even if it's with the best of intentions, right? And I think that that's sometimes the thing that happens with leaders in service oriented work, right? Especially, I think, when we hold spaces, we want to teach all the classes, we want to do all the things, and in reality, it's great, but if we're doing that and not taking care of ourselves, is the impact that we're having more detrimental then if we were like, hey, actually don't need to teach this week, I need to lay down and take care of myself so that when I come back next week, I'm that much more on point with myself, with those that I'm leading in community.
Jivana Heyman 15:12
I love that, thank you. It also reminds me of how some of the trauma informed teaching that I've learned about, like, I don't know if you know Nityda Gessel and her work, but she talks about one of the things we need to do as yoga teachers, if we want to lead trauma informed classes, is just regulate our own nervous system. Just focus on being with ourselves and trying to stay present with whatever's going on. And I always feel like it's so easy to get caught up in, like, thinking about the students' experience and, like you said, trying to have this nice sequence or playlist, whatever. But rather than that, it's like, focus on your your practice, not just because you need to be this amazing practitioner who can do fancy poses, but so that you can actually just stay present and relatively calm in the midst of that experience, no matter what's going on, especially when there's problems. And I know for me, like, well, one of the things I want to ask you is about your experiences in the past, but one of the moment things that stand out for me when I go back over these 30 years of teaching is the really hard classes when something happened, like a student would get upset or injured. I had fire alarms go off, I've had people running in the middle of class, I had a student who had a heart attack in a class. I mean, it is like, so many things happen and how do I stay present and regulated in those moments? But even during a regular class where no one's having any major crisis, I think we can model for them what we're teaching. Like, do you know what I mean? That's a way of being teacher.
Shawn Moore 17:01
Yeah. I think about, like, from a sound healing perspective, I think about the concept of entrainment, right? Entrainment is the idea that the vibration of one thing will affect the vibration of the things around it and have that same effect. And I think about that idea when we talk about, like, as a teacher or a leader, the person at the front of the room, your nervous system directly affects that of those around you. And so if you come in disheveled and not together and not grounded in that way, that is going to immediately ripple effect. Conversely, if you're coming in completely grounded, settled in, in a way that feels sort of cared for, then that makes it easier for those folks that are coming into the space in which you're holding to start to entrain into that sense and that vibration. It's the same way, if you've ever walked into a room and maybe somebody that's speaking or talking feels a little frazzled and energetically all over the place, and then you start feeling like that too, that's that concept. And same other way, somebody comes in very calm, cool, and collected, and you're like, wow, I'm I'm a little bit at ease because of that person. Same concept, right? It's that entrainment to that nervous system that is leading that particular space.
Jivana Heyman 18:17
I love that word. I didn't know that word. That makes sense. I'll have to start using it. Thank you. So I was kind of getting at this before, but I wanted to ask you if there was a story or more than one, or a practice, or a moment through your time of practicing and teaching that has stood out for you and that informs your work now and that kind of stays with you. It's probably more than one thing, I imagine, but if there's one that you're willing to share with us.
Shawn Moore 18:47
Yeah. I would say that it's probably my entry point into restorative yoga, particularly through Sacred Chill, the yoga studio that was here in Atlanta, Octavia Raheem and Meryl, their yoga studio. That is my, I think, definitive moment in my yoga journey, yoga career, that caused a really major shift. I entered into yoga on the, I think the typical way a lot of people do, like, I'm coming in, I'm looking for a class that's gonna make me sweat. I'm looking at it as a supplement to my workouts. At that point, I think I was doing a lot of boxing. My entry point, like my first practice, or first style of yoga was Bikram yoga. That was like, I loved the consistency, I liked the ability that I knew I was gonna go in for an hour, hour and a half, sweat. So I loved all of that. I ended up getting connected with Sacred Chill, and I went to a class, and I think I took a yin or restorative class, and it was torture. It was torture! I was like, and this is before, like, I didn't know a lot about yoga styles, I didn't know they were different. I just, like, yoga, it's a yoga class. I didn't know much. So I'm just laying there, and I'm like, we just, we just laying? Like, why are we not... why are we not doing anything? And it wasn't until I was like, well, let me give this a try again and let me come back. And I kept coming back to sort of explore that more and more, and it was in that moment, just noticing just the way the studio was, very like, different than other studios and other places that I've done yoga, even going to like LA Fitness to do yoga, this really calm sort of place that really focused on that slowing down, I realized that I was so resistant, because it was the thing I actually needed in the moment.
Shawn Moore 20:40
Life was like dialed up to ten, in terms of the sort of work that I was doing in higher ed, the early mornings, late nights. I was working with my PhD at that point, before I stepped away for a little bit, and it was just a lot happening, and I realized I actually needed to stop, and I was staying in motion so much that I wasn't giving myself space and time to feel. And it was that moment that the idea of a practice like this, like restorative yoga and even stillness based practices like something like yin, that I was like, oh, I get it. I get it, I understand. Like, it clicked. And then from there, it just became a natural part of my self care regimen, that I need these moments. Meditation is great, and, you know, that's a whole other conversation to talk about, like the difference of what meditation can do for us versus what something like restorative yoga can do for us. But it was like, cool, I need what meditation can do. I need that concentration, I need that focus that I get in that practice, but then also I need this time and opportunity to just fully be and sit with myself in ways that I didn't have or hadn't made space for my life. And so for me, it was the connection to Sacred Chill, and in turn, through that, the connection to restorative yoga. That's where I met Tracee Stanley, that's where I got connected to Yoga Nidra as a practice, which even went deeper into that, like, rest that was there. And so from there, I was just like, oh, yeah, we need more of this in the world. How can I now learn how to hold space through modalities like this for more folks? So yeah, it would be that, it would be my connection to that practice, a practice I was running from, I didn't realize the thing I was running from was the thing I needed the most.
Jivana Heyman 22:29
Yeah, I'm smiling because I got to go there, you know, I got to teach an Accessible Yoga training at Sacred Chill West, just before the pandemic. So it was like, I don't remember the date, I think it was like January of 2020, something like that, or February, maybe, I don't know. It was right around then, and I got to meet Octavia and be with her in person and that space is beautiful. And was she teaching that class? Do you remember who that teacher was? I don't know if you remember.
Shawn Moore 22:58
I don't remember. I don't know if it was Octavia teaching or not, it might have been. Listen, I was so disheveled the fact that we weren't moving, I don't know...
Jivana Heyman 23:07
I know. No, I can't imagine if you think you're going to yoga and then you end up in a restorative yin class. It would be like, oh, wow. Because that's, I think, I mean I hate to use this word, 'advanced,' but I would say to me, those rest practices are more, quote, advanced than the quicker moving practices. They just take so much more steadiness, and, I don't know, essence.
Shawn Moore 23:30
I always say when it comes to restorative yoga or any stillness based process, there are practices that are more simple, but simple doesn't always equate to easy. (Oh, God no.) People feel like, oh, it's just simple. That's all it is, we're just laying here? Yeah, that'll make it easy! But it creates a lot of space for a lot more to come up for you now to contend, with as you're resting in place.
Jivana Heyman 23:53
And especially because, if you go back to classical yoga, Patanjali, saying that yoga is stillness of mind, that takes you right there very quickly, or could, you know. Or challenges you in that way, because it's like moving is great too. I mean, I love asana so much, but a lot of fast and extreme movements can almost be distracting. It can be something to do, so you don't have to be just with yourself, you know. I mean, yeah, so, yeah, wow, that's so great. I love that you went down that road. I mean, I really see that when I think about it in your work. Yeah, I'm hoping to have some of them on here eventually.
Shawn Moore 23:53
I always take my hats off to to Sacred Chill, because that is the introduction to, I think, approaching something like yoga from a much more compassionate and gentle perspective, so understanding and have a little bit more reverence for the idea of slowing down and resting. Yeah, because again, before then, I was a participant. I was an active and willing participant, of like, grind culture. I was in it. It wasn't until I met those practices and really embraced them that it was, you know what, there's another way to do this. And yeah, it doesn't have to be burning myself out to that degree.
Jivana Heyman 25:25
Right. And, you know, Octavia has gone on to become this huge author, basically, which I'm excited about, she's an amazing writer. And Tracee too. Tracee is so incredible, yeah, I always learn a lot from her. And you too, I know you have a, is it a book and a card deck?
Shawn Moore 25:47
Yes. Sound is My Sanctuary, it's a sound healing workbook that provides, I think, a nice entry point. The question I always get asked when I hold space with sound is, like, I love this, what do I do? How do I begin exploring that? And it was the same question I had whenever I first experienced my first sound bath. And so the workbook sort of creates an opportunity to enter sound from a very personalized perspective. And it also has activities and things for you to do to actually begin to explore that from an experiential perspective.
Jivana Heyman 26:24
And the deck too? What about your cards?
Shawn Moore 26:26
I have a few, like a chakra card deck, another card deck that explores the koshas, and then one called Boundless Heart that explores the four Brahmaviharas in Buddhism, which essentially are like the four boundless qualities, like loving kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity. So it provides some space to explore, like, what does it mean to have an open or boundless heart? But yeah, those are my card decks, really great for, like, pulling for your own personal practice. I know some folks that will use them for when they teach as like a teaching resource, like, hey, I want to use this as an inquiry to share with my class, so they can be really helpful for that. I like experiential, tangible things that folks, like, yes, we can read it, but then do something with it. How do you now take it with you into the world.
Jivana Heyman 27:14
That's the teacher, I think that's the, there you go. That's the educator.
Shawn Moore 27:18
Yeah, that's the educator.
Jivana Heyman 27:21
Yeah, I see that. And what else are you doing? I'm curious. What else are you sharing these days?
Shawn Moore 27:26
Yeah, you know, for me, my focus right now has been a lot on the training piece. Right now I run three different trainings. One is a meditation teacher training. One is a, that I actually started this year, was our restorative yoga and Yoga Nidra training, which will be running back again in the fall, and then our energy and sound healing training. They all run once a year, and then we start a new cohort for the following year. So that's really sort of where I've been putting my energy. Because again, for me, it's about pouring into those who want to hold spaces, like, I don't have to be the person to hold the space, but if I can support those that are doing the work to hold the space that, for me, is the fulfilling work, and so creating more practitioners that are approaching the work from a really accessible perspective, that are putting the focus on the impact of community, creating more practitioners, or helping pour back into practitioners who are centering that perspective of the work.
Jivana Heyman 28:33
Are those online or in person?
Shawn Moore 28:35
Hybrid. So hybrid. So we do, for me, the community piece is a big piece, and so the modules are essentially the bulk of the training is virtual. And then for each of the trainings, we have an in person weekend that's almost like, we like to tell people, look at it like it's a retreat. So like, playing around, and we have a lot of folks that will come from all over the country, but we'll, like, make a weekend out of it. And so we have an in person weekend so that folks can actually get connected, meet people in person, and then also practice teach, get some hands on tangible practice teaching to sort of help round out that learning experience for them. So it's a bit of both. Bulk of it, virtual, with an in person weekend component
Jivana Heyman 29:18
Is there, kind of just going back for to the earlier topic around yoga teachers as leaders and also as teachers, like, you know, we need to take that title seriously, I'm curious, because, I know that this is your actual work outside of yoga too, what do you think we could do better? Is there something, other than the self care part, or, like, the doing our practice part? Have you noticed anything just being around yoga teachers or taking classes that you think, wow, you all need to do something, like that you're not doing, you know, that actual school teachers are doing or...? I don't know, do you know what I'm saying? Like, is there something you feel like...?
Shawn Moore 29:59
Yeah, I think the thing that's immediately coming, I'm trying to do the first thought, best thought thing, and the thing that's immediately coming up for me, and I don't know if I would say that it's not happening. I think it's something that I do see, and I think that we could do more of it, is to encourage people to have their own experience. Because for me, I think that's the fundamental nature of education. I think as teachers, we are creating a space for people to do a level of exploration. It might be an exploration that's centered around a specific topic, but it's through the exploration of that topic that people learn more about themselves. And so I would say that, as teachers, how do we keep in focus that people will have their own experience in the room, on their mat, in the training, and how do we support that experience, whatever that is that's happening for them? Just understanding that that is going to be the thing that is going to catalyze their experience that much more. So that will be the thing that I would say again, and I think that's one of the reasons why, I think, over the years, I've gravitated so much to the work of Accessible Yoga is just ensuring that the experience meets the needs of folks who are in the space. For me, that is fundamental and key to learning. There is no one size fits all aspect of learning. Learning is a highly individualized experience and as a space holder and an educator, how do we encourage that to happen in the space? But then also in instances where we feel like we might have a deficit in, in guiding that in the space, continue to do our learning and better facilitate that.
Jivana Heyman 31:50
I love that so much. I totally agree. I definitely share that concept, you know, like trying to encourage teachers to reflect on how they can have space for their students to find their own way. It's a real dance, actually, because I feel like you said Accessible Yoga teachers or really all yoga teachers need the skills to be able to adapt the practice to each person, at the same time, we have to let people find their own way. So it's like, yeah, you need to have the skills. But also, you can always just say, I don't know. And some of the best things have ever happened to me in classes is where I kind of just look at a student, I'm like, what do you think? Or just like, you show me. I've had students teach me so much, I mean, all the time. In a way, I'll just maybe say, Accessible Yoga was created by my students, right? Like they showed me what they wanted and what they could do, and I'm always learning from them, and I think that's part of it too. Not only do they have their own experience, but recognizing that they also might know more than you, they know more about their body and their experience than you do.
Shawn Moore 33:01
Yeah. I always think about that, because one of my favorite mantras for being an educator is, the answers are already in the room, it's just my job to help massage those answers out, is to create the space where people feel comfortable to lean into whatever wisdom is already there. And I think that that's something always key to sort of think about too. And I think when we think about trainings or anything like that, like, typically when there's a training, there's brilliant people that came together in this moment to be a part of this particular thing. How do we create space for that wisdom, you know, to not have to...and part of that is contending with, and this makes the conversation feel really full circle, sort of going back to like the principles of yoga, in general, as a educator, a leader, a teacher, of being in relationship to what your ego is to then realize you don't have to be the one to provide everything. Your goal is to facilitate. And again, I like to use the word facilitator much more than teacher, but to facilitate the learning, you don't have to be the end all, be all source of it in the space. And sometimes we get caught up in ego to be like, I gotta have all the answers, and if I don't have the answers, I'm not good enough, right? But in reality, it's big to say, hey, actually, I don't know. You know, actually, I might know somebody that I can point you towards that might have an answer. Let me get back to you. Or I actually just don't know, and that's part of part of the process.
Jivana Heyman 34:48
Yeah, I don't know, and, like, what do you think? You know? Like, part of it, to me, is putting it back on them. I think a lot of what I do in Accessible Yoga is put the power back in the hands of the student or the participant, rather than allow them to continue to look externally for that answer. And I think, like you said, that's yoga philosophy, right, that we have what we need inside. We are full already. We just don't see it. We have to clear away whatever those obstacles are to perceive that within ourselves. So if I am trying to facilitate that experience with my students or participants, it's like, tell them, look, you already know. So what do you need right now? What could you find? And it's, like, I'm not going to just sit there in silence for an hour and just let them do their thing. I mean, they've come for something. So it's like, how do I create something that we can kind of do just to kind of, like, almost past the time, or just give them a structure to just begin going more and more inside and connect with themselves and find what they need in there, rather than look to me. And I almost want to get out of the way. You know, I really think, see, I'm incredibly shy, so I think it's that's helped me, in a sense, because I don't really like to be the one in the front of the room, like I've learned to take that role seriously, but it's not my nature necessarily. So I kind of just want to be there with them.
Jivana Heyman 34:55
In fact, do you know Matthew Sanford? He is an amazing teacher, and actually, he's going to be on the podcast very soon too, probably in the next month or so. He's one of my favorite people. He wrote an incredible book, if you don't know it, called Waking about his an accident. He was in a car accident when he was 13, and he discovered yoga, eventually through it and really helped him. And he he's a wheelchair user, he's paralyzed from the chest down. And anyway, he's the founder of this organization called Mind Body Connections, am I saying that right? Yeah, that's an amazing non profit. Anyway, what he always says, and this always comes to my mind, is like, I want to sit next to the student. And one time he said to me, he's like, I want to sit next to the student, sitting by the fire of yoga, or something. Like, he had this image that was so beautiful, or, like, really touching. Of like, here is this incredible source, right, yoga and these incredible teachings. It's like this fire, and we can sit side by side in front of this fire together, and I'm like, wow, like, that kind of blew my mind. What an image, what a beautiful analogy for this experience of being. Yeah, I'm the teacher in this class, but really we're sitting side by side in front of this fire of wisdom.
Shawn Moore 37:33
I love that. It makes me think about Heather Plett. And then she wrote the book, The Art of Holding Space. And she says that part of her definition of holding space is to walk side by side with the person along their journey. And I just love, to your point, that visual like of I'm not in front of you, like, we walkin' side by side, and wherever this takes us, we're going on this together. And that difference, it's almost like, even when we think about this idea of breaking down that hierarchy, right? And I know that that, even from a perspective of, and I see this a lot in the yoga space, I think that there's, there's a complexity and, like, interesting texture around the word leader. I think when we think about the word leader, it naturally probably has some, like, negative connotations. So people kind of shy away from wanting to sort of lean into that as a moniker or title. But if we think about leadership and we collapse it down from that hierarchical sort of perspective, I love that idea of, like, I'm joining you side by side on your journey. Whatever that looks like. We going about this together, but I'm not in front of you. I'm not above you. I am right beside you as you move along this journey and experience.
Jivana Heyman 38:51
I mean, it's the truth. You know? It's like, I just feel, I don't know, I know that yoga has this tradition. There's a guru tradition in yoga, and there's an aspect of the teachings that's devotional towards the guru, but I mostly feel like that doesn't work now. It's like, I'm no guru, and none of us are. Like, I really don't think...I think it's shown to be not very effective in Western culture, at least. I don't know how it's gone, you know, there is a tradition of it. I'm sure that it's been valid in a different culture. But I think nowadays it seems like it leads to a lot of problems and abuse.
Shawn Moore 39:35
I think that's an interesting...I think that's a very interesting...and I feel like that is such a like state of the of yoga sort of conversation. Because I get it. I feel the same way. I think that where we are culturally, there is a need to sort of collapse that, and I also see the value, because I think that that there is a preservation of ritual and tradition that comes from that. And it's like, what does that look like in 2025 now, right? Because there's value, there's a need for both. But then we understand that when that sort of guru culture goes wrong, it goes really wrong, right? So, like, how do we figure that out where there still is a preservation of that ritual and tradition without the sort of coersive, sort of abuse of nature that can potentially emerge out of that while honoring the fact that people are on their own journeys and need spaciousness to be able to explore that journey while still having a level of support along that journey.
Jivana Heyman 40:50
Yeah. I just think there's maybe a different way, and I think it has to do with the way that the leader, let's say, perceives themselves as equal to the student or participant. And I just think that seeing the humanity in both is important. Also just seeing that these are valid relationships that like that well, the quote, teacher/student relationship is actually an important relationship, and there's value there, and you don't have to be friends, you don't have to be in a romantic relationship. You can actually just be teacher/student, and that can be really beautiful and equal.
Shawn Moore 41:30
That's powerful enough, in itself. Yep.
Jivana Heyman 41:36
Yeah. And that it's beautiful and it and also that the teacher doesn't have to be perfect. Because I think the danger in the guru tradition, and maybe it's just like in the way it's been perceived in modern times, that's really what I'm talking about. Like, I'm not trying to be down on it traditionally, but just the modern moment of gurus is, like, I think there's a lot of pressure on them, on that person, so they're forced to kind of go to a place of manipulation and abuse or something, because it's impossible to be that way, because they're human.
Shawn Moore 42:08
You took the words right out my mouth. I said at the end of the day, they're still human. And you know, all humans, no matter role or title, you know, are prone to to imperfection, and everything that sort of comes with that. And sometimes folks are put on a pedestal where it's like, we want to put them up as on this sort of godlike tier, when in reality, they're a person that just has a little bit more information and a little bit more experience than we do. So how do we hold them on that? And to your point, realize that there is value in a teacher/student relationship, and in that, that is a whole and beautiful relationship in itself. It doesn't have to cross the territory in any other type of dynamic in that way, and that is totally fine.
Jivana Heyman 43:04
Yeah, yeah. I think you need to write a book about that. I just would to learn from your knowledge in education and have that just kind of be supportive of us yoga teachers, because I just think we have a lot to learn.
Shawn Moore 43:22
Yeah, I made a little mental note about that, because, yeah, that's actually an interesting this to explore a little deeper.
Jivana Heyman 43:27
Well, you just know so much about that. I can feel it, and I know that you're passionate about it. So I just, I think it's a real kind of, what is it like, a gap in our understanding as yoga leaders, and what it means to be in that role. Anyway, so anything else you want to share, and no pressure about the book, by the way.
Shawn Moore 43:34
I got some, listen it's a few projects on that on the back burner right now that I'm like, yeah, I'm massaging it out. But this conversation actually helped me massage some of that out a little bit more. So, you know.
Jivana Heyman 44:02
Because, you said, did you do a PhD?
Shawn Moore 44:05
I got pretty far in and I took a break.
Jivana Heyman 44:08
Okay, can I ask what the topic was?
Shawn Moore 44:11
Educational leadership.
Jivana Heyman 44:13
Right? See, there you go. I knew it. That's what I figured.
Shawn Moore 44:18
Once I get settled in Boston, my goal to return back to that, and I think it's time to return back to that, because I have a better idea of how I want to explore that, and it's really at the intersection of leadership and wellness and mindfulness and what that means. So yeah.
Jivana Heyman 44:38
Yeah, it's exciting, honestly. And so you mentioned Boston. I just want to say before we end that it's exciting that you're, you're going to be in Boston. And so anyone listening who lives in the Boston area, I hope they'll see you. Will you be teaching in person? You don't know yet, probably because you're not there.
Shawn Moore 44:55
I don't know yet. So if folks are listening and they know the, you know, the dope studios, to checkout in Boston, please let me know. Yeah, I'll be be trying to figure out what that looks like. I'm definitely, you know, I had somebody asked me that. It's like, are you gonna immediately hit the ground and start teaching? It's like, actually, I'm using that spaciousness to actually, like, lean into practice myself. So I'll be looking for, like, a yoga home. I have my virtual homes that I'm able to tap into, but I'll definitely be looking for like those in person communities, both on the yoga side and on the Buddhist side of space, to be able to drop in and find and feel that level of support.
Jivana Heyman 45:35
I have some ideas for you. I'm going to be teaching in Boston in June, an Accessible Yoga Training. So anyone listening, you're welcome to join me, and I hope you'll come by and say hi. Maybe you could teach a little bit, and it's a Down Under in Brookline. But I also have heard a few but a few other places, so I can share that later. Anyway. So thank you so much, Shawn, and I look forward to seeing you in person in Boston in June!
Shawn Moore 46:03
I'm looking forward to it. I put it on my calendar!
Jivana Heyman 46:06
Okay good. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 46:09
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Jivana Heyman 47:12
Hey, everyone, welcome back. Hi, Deanna, how are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:30
Hey, Jivana, I'm good. How are you doing?
Jivana Heyman 47:32
I'm good, I'm good. I'm all tired today. I'm just doing too much, you know how that is in life. But good things, lots of gardening. It's spring. Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:45
Life is lifeing. Yes, I just finished listening to Shawn's episode, which was incredible.
Jivana Heyman 47:51
Yeah, it was such a great conversation. I love him. I love talking to him, and I love that he has all this expertise in education, I think that's such an interesting thing for most yoga teachers to reflect on. You know, we don't often think about ourselves as educators. Maybe we do, but it feels we always focus on the yoga part and not as much on the teaching. And I was thinking, you know, that word pedagogy, like the way we teach, that's what he was kind of getting at. Yeah. What did you like about it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:24
Yeah. And also, like, similarly, you were bringing up the point that, you know, teachers don't recognize that they're also in a leadership position. There's not a lot of discussion about what that means. And Shawn saying that if you're holding space, you are a leader, and also that it comes with responsibility. That felt super important to examine, and, you know, and carry that responsibility. And it kind of reminded me of maybe the reason why you started Accessible Yoga, right? Like, if you're going to, you know, claim the space of a teacher, like, to carry some tools for you to be able to offer it to everyone in your space, like that's the responsible thing to do. So I thought that you and Shawn just brought up really great points.
Jivana Heyman 49:09
Yeah, thanks. I really, I love talking to him. Yeah. I love the idea of yoga teacher as leader. I even wrote about that in my last book, actually, the Teacher's Guide to Accessible Yoga. There's a whole little section on leadership for yoga teachers, and I think it's important for so many reasons. One is just like, ethically, I think that we we really need to hold ourselves to a high ethical standard, because so much abuse has happened in the name of yoga in the past. I'm not saying that any current teacher is being abusive, but we have this kind of terrible history in yoga. And so it's like, I think we have to be extra careful and extra conscious of ethics and boundaries as yoga teachers to help avoid any future problems. And so I think maybe if we perceive ourselves as leaders, that could help in that way. Do you think? I don't know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:04
And you know, I think Shawn was also following the thread of how boundaries not only help create a positive impact on ourselves, but also the communities we lead. Like it's just important for both you and everyone in your space to maintain those boundaries.
Jivana Heyman 50:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so true. I mean, boundaries, you know, keep us safe and keep everyone safe and, oh yeah, we talked about how you know that the teacher/student relationship is valuable, and I feel like that's a boundary, just being being okay with that as an honored and important relationship to have in our lives. It doesn't need to be anything more, anything less. I also loved when he was talking about entrainment, was that the word, you know, that just that concept, it was so great to have a word for it, you know, because I've been thinking about that idea. And then he said that word, I was like, yes! You know, this idea of how we can kind of vibe off each other, how we set the tone. Do you know what I'm saying? Maybe you could describe it better, what entrainment is.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:11
And I find that even, you know, if you are not teaching, but maybe you are a practitioner in a space, or you're in a support role in a space, which, you know, speaking for myself, I find that it's useful to understand that you know, your vibration carries weight in a space. And so if you enter a Zoom Room or you're welcoming guests into a studio, right, like the way you are feeling, and your vibration may have an impact on somebody else, and it could make a big difference in somebody's practice, or even the way you're marketing an upcoming training, right? Like coming at things from a vibration that's clear and rested, even.
Jivana Heyman 51:55
Yeah, I love that. I think it's true. I think that people really remember that how you made them feel. What is that famous quote? Is it Maya Angelou? You know, probably, usually is. That people don't remember what you said, but how you made them feel? I'm paraphrasing, and I just think that's true. It's like as a yoga teacher, so much of what we're doing is just creating an experience and trying to help people deepen that, to help regulate their nervous systems. And I think it's usually talked about in that regard, like around trauma informed teaching, that one of the important elements in a trauma informed yoga class is that the teacher is working on regulating their nervous system so that the students can be entrained, or whatever the word is, experience entrainment with them. You know, which makes sense. I've experienced that myself so many different ways, good and bad. You know, it's such a great idea. I mean, at the same time, I don't want yoga teachers to feel like they have to be perfect, you know what? I mean, like you can be upset, too, but just to be conscious of how you're feeling, I think, is important.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:02
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. This isn't about like, trying to be a certain way at all. It's just maybe like, taking a breath, if that feels right to you, or just taking some space to understand where you are in that moment, so you could, you know, create space for yourself and anyone else in your purview.
Jivana Heyman 53:20
Right. Also the idea of leadership. You know, you mentioned that earlier. I think sometimes people who have a marginalized identities, and I'm generalizing, but like for me, like as a queer person, like, I think sometimes we don't see ourselves as leaders, just because of whatever internalized issues we have. I know we talked about that a bit after Amber's podcast at the last episode, but I just feel like, I don't know, there's like internalized oppression that keeps us from seeing the power that we hold, and especially as leaders. So like to be a yoga teacher is to be a leader and to bring people together for a yoga class, is to be a community organizer. And in many ways, you're an activist, because activism is mostly around community organizing. So I think that there's so much power in being a yoga teacher. There's so much benefit that we can provide to people, beyond just the yoga practices just in coming together in community, by holding strong boundaries, by having strong ethical values. I think those are incredibly valuable things that yoga teachers offer to the people that they serve.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:36
It's interesting, like kind of couching leadership in terms of creating a community. Like, to me, in a when you say community, it kind of flattens that hierarchical approach to leadership that we're used to in maybe dominant culture where it's like, oh, a leader is this person who's going to tell me what to do. This leader is going to be a person who's the only voice in the room. Like, you know, this is kind of a shifting paradigm of leadership, maybe, that we're exploring, and the power of that, creating space for everyone in the space, in the room.
Jivana Heyman 55:08
My God, I love that. I love that. Well, you mentioned why I created Accessible Yoga, and I mean, it's related, which is, yeah, I just felt like I wanted to give other people a platform. That was literally my intention. Was to create an organization where other people had the spotlight. I mean, I still end up doing most of the teaching, but that was the original goal, so maybe I failed. But you know, on the other hand, there's been some success there, especially regarding our conferences and our programs where we get tons of voices for a lot of people who normally don't get platformed, I think, have had that opportunity through Accessible Yoga.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:51
Yeah, I'm looking forward to our next workshop series, actually, which takes place later this month, and Shawn is actually a presenter in it, Restorative Yoga Series, and we're featuring ten instructors, including yourself, offering their perspective on rest in a way that's inclusive.
Jivana Heyman 56:10
Yeah. And actually, you know, these series that we do, I just want to say, these days through Accessible Yoga, we do a few different things. I do trainings, obviously, but then we do these workshop series, and they're kind of like mini conferences. So we don't really offer an Accessible Yoga Conference anymore, but these are basically those conferences. What we've done is focused on specific topics. And so this upcoming one is an exploration of restorative yoga and how we can make that accessible to anyone who's interested. And I'm so excited. We ran this two years ago with most of the same people and there's a few new people joining this time. And it was just so eye opening, because I feel like restorative yoga is an incredibly powerful tool. It's actually a very deep practice in yoga. And many people think it's just lying around or something, and that it's already accessible, but in so many ways, it's not. And I learned a lot from the last series. I can't wait to to go through it again. And then, like I said, we have new people joining. And actually, Shawn has a new topic this time, so we have such great people joining us for this. I don't know if we should go through the list, but maybe we can link to it in the show notes. I hope whoever's listening, you'll join us for this training, this series. It's really great. I just love when we can, again, just platform other voices. We get two hours with each of these people, and we get to hear their take on this topic of restorative yoga. It's such an interesting kind of format for a program. I actually don't know if I've seen anywhere else, to be honest. I don't know when this is really done. This idea of just two hours from ten different people. So it's exciting.
Speaker 1 57:54
It is exciting. You'll find details in show notes. Jivana, we have a few reader responses I'd love to share today with you. (Okay, of course.) We have a question from Joe Sparks, who is a yoga teacher, so, "Long time yoga student, 49 years, and yoga teacher of 28 years. "I wish yoga teachers understood how important it is for their students' voices are heard and how difficult it feels to share. But the process of sharing is just as important as the yoga poses. There is no separation of mind, body, breath. What has helped me on my healing journey is sharing with my other identities, male, raised poor, Romany heritage. I've been unsuccessful in finding a yoga teacher support group or trying to support one. I would be interested, specifically, in joining a support group for male yoga teachers. This is seen as a non traditional male job. It would be beneficial to hear other men's stories. Our society isolates and separates us. We need to be a resource for each other."
Jivana Heyman 58:25
Yeah, thanks, Joe. I know Joe. He is kind enough to comment on so many of my Facebook posts, and so I've had many exchanges with him over the years, and I always enjoy it. Actually, he tends to have one focus, which is community building. And I've really been impressed by that. He talks sometimes about listening and creating spaces for the students to share and to really listen to each other and to hear each other and so this comment does not surprise me at all. You know, it's like he's basically saying already what I know he's already so good at. I have to say, Joe, you're really good at this, already. I know you are, because he's shared examples with me of how he does this within his yoga classes, how he gets the students to share and listen to each other in an open and non judgmental way, which I really love. Reminds me of when I used to work for that Dean Ornish Heart Disease Reversal Program, many years ago, part of that program, it was like a five part program where you worked on, you know, like exercise and diet, and stopping smoking, and yoga and meditation, and then group support. And they found that that program could reverse heart disease, which is remarkable, because there is really nothing else that can reverse heart disease. Like, you can help people with heart disease, you can give them medication, but to actually reverse the disease progression was almost miraculous, especially because heart disease is like, literally, the number one killer of people all over the world.
Jivana Heyman 59:02
Anyway, they also found that the two most important components of the program were the...well, everyone thought it was the diet and exercise, but it was actually the yoga, meditation and the group support. And the way they ran it wasn't like a regular well, I mean, it was more like a support group, it was like group therapy, where you could only give positive feedback or neutral. You couldn't give people, you couldn't, like, analyze each other. It was such an interesting dynamic, and I really enjoyed it. It was how a support group should be run. Do you know what I mean? So, like, you could listen and you can hear each other and give positive feedback, but there was no criticism or any kind of, what's the word, like, telling people what to do. That wasn't allowed. Anyway, I loved it. I love being part of this. So anyway, I hope Joe will create that. I think that sounds awesome, and I know he can, because he's very effective. So thank you, Joe. (Thank you, Joe.) I mean, that's the leadership we just talked about, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:50
It is the leadership we just talked about. And also, I just want to add that a support group could start with one other person, right, and grow from there. It doesn't have to look like, you know, everybody in a community space, in a circle right away. Maybe it just starts with a few folks who want to share the same things that you do.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:08
Yeah, that's a great point. Just start with what you have. And putting it out there has helped. So people can reach Joe if they want. Maybe we can link in the show notes to him in some way if people want to find him.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:21
Okay, I have another question for you, and this is from Claudia Garcia, who is a yoga teacher. "I have a good time following your content and your work. I'm happy to meet you, and I'm wanting to know how you committed to Accessible Yoga?"
Jivana Heyman 1:02:35
Aw, thanks, Claudia. I'm glad you like my work. I don't know how I committed to Accessible Yoga. I would say Accessible Yoga really grew out of my wanting to share the depth of the practices with my students. And so it was like I often say, like my yoga students created Accessible Yoga because they showed me what they needed. You know, I was an AIDS activist in the 80s, and then went back to yoga to help deal with the grief and stress of that time, and it occurred to me that I could share it with my community. So I started teaching people with HIV and AIDS, that's how I started Accessible Yoga. And I remember those first classes I started at a hospital in San Francisco, and I had a group that went on for years and years and years, and they really showed me that first of all, obviously I needed to adapt the practice. So there was that, like they taught me a lot about the need for adapted asana and pranayama and meditation. And then they also showed me that they were really interested in the deeper teachings. They wanted to know about yoga philosophy. They were facing severe illness and often death, and it was, it's like they really wanted to know as much as they could about the kind of, you know, bigger questions that yoga answers, like, who are we? Why are we here? What happens when we die? That's what they kept asking me. So we would, we would read together. We'd read the Yoga Sutras, the Bhagavad Gita. We'd read poetry. We had group support, inspired by my experience at the Ornish program. I brought that into those groups, and we would often start with a half hour of sharing, which was basically group support, a support group that was non judgmental, and then we do about an hour and a half of a asana class, and they were just beautiful, and the community really grew from there. So yeah, I don't know if that answers the question. That's a brief synopsis. Thanks for asking so that I could share a little bit of my journey, since this is our my the 30th anniversary of my teaching.
Speaker 1 1:04:48
Thanks so much for sharing, Jivana. We have one more story to share. This is from Michele Dougherty, from Shell Yoga and Mindfulness. "I have been teaching chair, and Accessible Yoga, and mindfulness for more than eight years. Many miraculous reports from just getting my students to breathe, move, and be still. One 95 year old person told me that her doctor had told her that with her arthritic hands, she would never move them again. I challenged this saying, 'Are they your doctor's hands or yours?' She very indignantly said, 'Mine.' And after a month of practicing my suggested movement, she started to get movements in her figures and then her hand."
Jivana Heyman 1:05:30
Wow. Thank you. Thanks, Michele, for sharing and for teaching, for teaching Accessible Yoga. That's so awesome, and that's a great story. You know, I think what I get from that story is, you know, the power of yoga to remind us that we have agency, and also the power of the practice, that it can help us to regain something that we might have lost. It also reminds me of how language is so important too, right? Like in our in the Accessible Yoga Training that's going on right now, we're just talking about this idea of the placebo effect, and also the nocebo effect, you know, which is the opposite. So the idea that you could say something negative to someone and have a negative impact. And it's interesting within yoga, because sometimes some teachers feel that if you give a lot of contraindications or warnings about practice that you're having this nocebo effect, you're actually creating negative experiences for the students. And yet, with Accessible Yoga, we're often dealing with people who have pre existing conditions, either older people or disabled people or people who just have something going on. And so I just, you know, I like to bring that up and really challenge the trainees and my programs to reflect on, how can you offer information and education to your students without kind of adding to that nocebo effect, you know, like, is there a way to do it? And I don't know exactly, but I think there is. I think you can educate people without scaring them, you know, and creating fear. And I feel like that's kind of what Michele was doing there, was kind of like reframing it, which I think is really, really helpful. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:07:23
It does make sense. And it's a fine balance, too, between, you know, kind of sharing information, and then also not promising, that yoga is this cure all for everything, which I think we see a lot, right, with social media, there are a lot of grifts out there, yeah. And so it's this balance of, like, you know, maintaining satya, truth, and what's possible with yoga.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:48
Exactly, taking it right back to ethics. Thank you. That's the key. By the way, that's what I've been writing about on social media a lot recently, too around yoga is ethics, how it just is always the answer. You just went right there with satya, right the second aspect of yama from the eight limbs of yoga. I think that's exactly the answer I would have too, which is that we just need to be honest about the information and where we found it. So, do you know what I mean? Like you could say, you know this pose according to, you know, this one research study I read, inversions are contraindicated for people with high blood pressure, for example, like you get that, you know, I'm just saying, for an example, if you give like the actual source, I find that really helpful. Or if you say, like, my teacher told me... or I have found personally, blank. Whatever it is, but in a way citing the source, I think, helps to frame it, and also brings in that honesty, and it gives people more information about where you're coming from, rather than like, just a general or generic statement, like inversions are contraindicated for high blood pressure, you know. Or maybe you could even say more, you say, I read this recent study about how inversions are contraindicated for high blood pressure because of the effort that it takes to get into them. But it's complicated, because then when you're actually in an inversion, and you're comfortable, it actually lowers your blood pressure, which is true. So it's a very confusing thing. So it's not really enough to just say, yeah, inversions are contraindicated for high blood pressure, it's a little bit more of a nuanced thing.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:09:34
Thanks for that, Jivana. That makes sense.
Jivana Heyman 1:09:36
It does? Okay. Or you could say your own experience. Like I found personally that, you know, inversions are calming and actually help me maybe lower my blood pressure. I mean, sometimes you can feel that happening when you're comfortable, an inversion is like, ahhh. You can let go. Anyway, I'm glad that's helpful. And thanks everyone. Was that Michele, that last comment? That was really helpful. (That was Michele.) Thank you, Michelle, for writing in and I would just encourage anyone listening to write or leave a voicemail. I love hearing people's voices, to be honest. I mean, I love hearing you read them too, Deanna, but it's really fun when people do voicemails, isn't it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:10:20
It is fun. Yeah, it definitely, like, adds an extra like, it's fun to hear someone's voice.
Jivana Heyman 1:10:26
I know, it's so interesting. And like, here we are. This podcast is, like, audio based experience, so it's so great, if people are willing to, you know, come on. Maybe it's intimidating, I don't know, but go ahead, leave me a voicemail. I want to hear from you. (And we really do play them all.) Yeah, we're getting through, I know we're getting through everything we need some more. Send us some more.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:10:48
Well, thanks so much for sharing, Jivana. Always a pleasure to be here.
Jivana Heyman 1:10:52
Thank you. Thanks, Deanna, and thanks for listening everyone, and we'll be with you next time.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:10:59
Yep, see you in a few weeks.
Jivana Heyman 1:11:00
Okay, bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
