Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. Thanks so much for being here. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Chumash land, which is known as Santa Barbara, California. And I'm so glad that you're here. We have a special guest today, Amber Karnes, who is a close friend, someone I've worked with for many, many years. She has a special place in my heart, and I actually think a special place in the yoga world. She's had such a big impact. She's someone that I think we should all know about and celebrate. She really started, or helped to start, the body positive movement in yoga, and was even on the cover of Yoga Journal, which was a big thing back then. So I just I appreciate Amber so much and what she's done for me personally. In fact, this podcast wouldn't have happened without her. She was my co host for many years, and it was so great to have her back. So please join me after the conversation with Amber, Deanna and I will take some questions and comments from you, from our listeners, so thanks for still sharing those comments with me. I really appreciate it. All right. So here's our special conversation with Amber Karnes.
Jivana Heyman 2:01
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Jivana Heyman 2:53
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Jivana Heyman 3:46
Okay, welcome back everyone, and I'm so excited today to talk to my friend Amber Karnes, who, by the way, I maybe created this whole podcast just so I could talk to you again.
Amber Karnes 3:55
[laughing] Is that right?
Jivana Heyman 3:58
Yeah! I mean, we worked together so closely, and I got to talk to you, like, every day and now I don't and it makes me really sad.
Amber Karnes 4:07
Well here we are. (Yay!) Back together once again.
Jivana Heyman 4:11
Yay, back together again. Okay, so, I'll have introduced you by now, but I wonder if you want to say something, if you want to introduce yourself, say hello,
Amber Karnes 4:20
Sure. My name is Amber Karnes, and I am a big fan of Jivana and Accessible Yoga, and I am so excited to be here and to talk with everybody today.
Jivana Heyman 4:35
And well, let's see, so back, I'm trying to think, I'm really bad with dates, but (It's okay), this podcast season is about, for me, it's kind of a self-focused, self-centered journey through my 30 years of teaching yoga and you're such a big part of that. I was trying to remember what year it was, but at some point, you became the president of the Accessible Yoga Association, our nonprofit, and you and I worked together to really get that organization going through COVID, in particular, and moving online. And you helped me with all my programs at the school, you know, moving the Accessible Yoga Training online, which has just been such a huge thing for me, being able to teach online. And also you just have, I don't know how to say it, but you just have this ability to be good at everything, I think. You're like a jack of all trades. Is that fair to say? (Yeah, I guess so!) So mostly, I just wanted to start with that, like, just how much gratitude I have for you, even though I don't get to talk to you that much anymore, but I feel like I wouldn't be here without you, honestly.
Amber Karnes 5:49
Well, it's great to be here, and I feel, you know, really thankful that I got to participate in so much of that work over the past couple years. And I was trying to think of the dates too. I joined the board in 2018 so I think that means, like, we started working together on the like, I think I took the Accessible Yoga training in 2017 and then in 2018 we started teaching together and I joined the board.
Jivana Heyman 6:15
And you started teaching with me! Oh, and by the way, we started this podcast together. So this is the Accessible Yoga Podcast, which you and I were co hosts of for a couple years. (Yeah, a couple years.) Really amazing, and in fact, we still have those episodes available here. So if people want they can go onto the website under podcast and just scroll back down, and you'll see tons and tons of episodes with, usually we were together, and then sometimes you and I would interview other people. It was so awesome. You taught me so much, and like I said, I really wouldn't be here without you, like, I wouldn't be doing a podcast if you hadn't shown me how to do this, because it's not my kind of thing. Like, you're just so comfortable with technology. And, anyway, you just taught me a lot. So thank you for that. (Yeah.) So what are you doing now? So I, again, we haven't talked until, well, we did talk actually, but I don't really know everything going on with you, so I wondered if you would share a bit about where you're at and some of the things you're working on.
Amber Karnes 7:14
Yeah, I'd love to. I went through a lot of change since the pandemic, like everyone, you know, and it really changed a lot about my life. I ended up kind of reevaluating a lot of things. I went through a divorce after a 20 year relationship. I moved a whole bunch of times. I decided that I didn't want to make a living full time doing yoga teacher trainings anymore. And so much had changed about the industry anyway, it seemed like traveling yoga teacher trainer wasn't really a job anymore, which you and I had been doing for quite some time. And so I kind of took a little bit of a sabbatical and just took some one on one marketing clients and website design stuff, and was just freelancing for a little while, while I sort of try to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. Almost every single thing in my life changed at once and also, at the same time, we were going through the pandemic. And I went through a couple serious injuries with the recoveries and there was so much upheaval at the same time.
Jivana Heyman 8:20
Oh my God and your dog, your dog, I think was just thinking about that.
Amber Karnes 8:23
Yeah, my dog died. Yeah, it was big, big change. And anyway, I ended up, last summer, moving to North Carolina, moving in with my parents, just so I could, kind of like, get myself together and and figure out what I wanted to do, and have, like, a little bit of pressure off to produce financially when I was kind of pivoting big time in my business. And I feel very fortunate that I have that as a resource, and I was able to do that. And so now, coming into 2025, my work, is really taking a shape, and I'm real sure about the sort of next iteration of it. So the yoga retreats are back. I'm very excited to continue teaching there, and this year I'm hosting four retreats. Two are in Mexico or doing yoga and surfing for complete beginners. I started surfing for the first time last year at age 42 and I love it.
Jivana Heyman 9:25
I used to surf when I was younger. (You did?) Matt, when I got married, well, actually, when we had kids, my husband said I had to stop. He thought it was too dangerous and he freaked out. I think he just didn't want to be left alone with the kids. (Fair enough.) He was maybe more worried about me driving down there to the beach than about actually being in the water. But yeah.
Amber Karnes 9:44
That sounds right. [laughing] Well, yeah. I mean, I'm definitely still very much a beginner, and (it's so hard!) fall off more times than I stand up, but it's so fun to try. I think that's what's different about surfing for me is like, it's fun to try, you know, like learning to skateboard, is like, ouch when you fall, you know and like surfing, it's...
Jivana Heyman 10:08
Also, I think the thing about surfing that people don't realize, is like, well, it depends on the weather and what the waves are doing, but really so much of it is about sitting out there in the water, just sitting and just being in the ocean, floating, and it's just an incredible feeling, you know, yeah, like, just to be past the break and not be, like, to kind of have gotten that far, to get through the waves and you're just sitting on the board. Like, I don't even, I'm not good at surfing, but I miss that part of just sitting on the board.
Amber Karnes 10:34
Yeah. You really get to have a connection with the ocean that I think, like, if you just go to the beach and hang out, it's different, you know, having to really understand and learn to read the waves and figure out where to be and, you know, all of that. So. (That's huge.) Yeah, it's a really fun thing that I'm obsessed over a little bit. Anyway, so taking two groups to Mexico to learn surfing and practice yoga. And then I have a retreat in August in Mexico and we're going to snorkel with whale sharks as they're migrating and make art and explore body image through art and through connection with nature. And then I have my body positive yoga summer camp, which I've ran since 2015, we took a few years off during COVID, in Virginia, where we're going to do swimming holes and practice yoga. We have amazing house up in the mountains, beautiful views, and yeah, so I'm excited about continuing to do those. And then my other work is really around helping people figure out their marketing, especially people who are solo business owners, like, have tiny businesses, or, like, a little project or a little community they're working on. And I really like simplifying marketing and taking the sort of intimidation out of it. I think a lot of people hear the word marketing and they kind of freeze up. They don't like marketing. They don't like selling, they don't want to promote themselves.
Jivana Heyman 12:04
You're so good at it. You created our logo. You helped me understand marketing in a whole different way, social media, everything.
Amber Karnes 12:11
Yeah. So yeah, I'm doing a lot of that type of work. I have a few one on one clients. I do like one off office hours, if you just want to, like, ask a bunch of questions or brainstorm something together, and I just started a community called Social Media Dropouts, where a bunch of us that are trying to spend a little less time on social media and a little bit more time working on investing in the marketing assets that we own, like our own website, our email list, or just the relationships that we have with our customers or our clients or our peers that can refer work back and forth to each other. There's a lot of marketing that doesn't have to feel like marketing, and so that's what we're kind of learning in the group. And I'm doing a little bit of teaching around and so that's a lot of fun. And one kind of offshoot of that is I'm doing merch design. So merchandise, like shirts and hats and stickers and all the little things that, if you have fans or clients that love you, they want your merch.
Jivana Heyman 13:16
Yeah, we should talk. I mean, we should do something again. I remember you created the t shirt that I love. (Oh that's right.) What was it? Outer...
Amber Karnes 13:25
Like outer ability not equals inner peace.
Jivana Heyman 13:30
That was such a good one. I love that one. We should do some Accessible Yoga merchandise. I know I saw you did a whole line, like we didn't elect Elon Musk.
Amber Karnes 13:40
No one voted for Elon Musk. That's right.
Jivana Heyman 13:44
No, I love your newsletters. And your design is so beautiful. I think you have such a way of doing it that feels kind of retro, but also modern. I think that's really, really important.
Jivana Heyman 13:55
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, so, you know, as usual, I have a lot going on, but I'm really excited to kind of be digging deep into those kind of different areas and still have a lot of the same people that I had in my community with yoga that, you know now, like, want a little help with marketing, or I get to go on retreats with them or whatever. And so it's nice to kind of like, make a big pivot, which has been a lot of work, and a lot of, sort of, dark night of the soul, trial and error, and making things that nobody signs up for and figuring out why, and then doing it better the next time, you know. And so it's been great to sort of finally get to a place where I feel like it's, you know, it's coming together, get a plan. So that's amazing.
Jivana Heyman 14:46
Yeah. I mean, it's so important, I think, as a yoga teacher, which you're still doing, it's like finding your place. I don't like that term niching down or whatever, but it's like, just finding your role in the world and where you can serve best. And I think it's hard for someone like you, in a way, because you can do anything, I have to say, like, you have so many skills. And you're an amazing teacher, by the way, and so even just that, like just teaching yoga, I think would be an amazing gift to the world. I mean, I've just seen you teach a lot, and I really, really appreciate it. But I was wondering, so one of the things I'm doing in this podcast is asking everyone to go on a trip down memory lane with me a bit and to reflect on their history, their story, a little bit and I wonder if you would share something with us. So I've been asking people if there's a story, teaching, or practice from your past that continues to inspire you today. I don't know if you have something in mind or even more than one, that's ok.
Amber Karnes 15:47
I think, you know, when you asked me that question, the thing that jumped into my mind first was non attachment. And I think you know, especially the past few years for me, it's been an important practice to hold things loosely. And I think that, you know, a lot of times like, well, I don't know. I just speak for myself, like, all the change that I've been through since around the year, you know, 2020, like, with the pandemic, all the changes that the yoga industry went through, my personal life, you know, things that I kind of took for granted as part of my identity or part of like, this is who I am and this is the work that I do in the world, no longer exists or aren't an option anymore, or whatever. And so I think that I caused myself a lot of pain and suffering being in the place where I felt irritated or angry or sad or whatever, that those things weren't possible anymore for me for whatever reason, right? Like we couldn't travel during COVID, and like I had a whole year of sold out events that I had worked so hard to fill and, you know, it's like there's nothing that I could do about that. The the fact that this relationship that I poured 20 years into, wrapping my life around another person, doesn't exist anymore, and like, there's nothing I can do. I can't go back in time, you know?
Amber Karnes 17:18
And so I really had to change my mind about a lot of things, or I felt like I was going to be stuck in this place forever where I'm just looking backwards instead of being able to figure out what's next for me as all these things changed in my life. And I think that it's funny, like, sometimes I get in this place, like, mentally or whatever, and I kind of forget all the stuff that I know, and I feel like I forgot a lot of the yoga teachings that really, you know, I needed during that time. And so, like, I came back to my practice, like, you know, I don't know what the date was, or whatever, but I remember one day I just rolled out my yoga mat, and I was just, like, so done with everything, and had messed something up, or I was just like, you know, you have those days where you just need to lay somewhere and collapse into a heap. And I sort of was just like, my body hurts, my heart hurts, I just want to roll around on the floor for a minute and see if I can shift this. And just coming back to that and coming back to my breath brought so much of that back. It was almost like I had this muscle memory inside of me that knew there are tools here that can help you. There are teachings that you know, that you've lived, that you've taught other people that can help. And so I really felt like, being able to come to a place where I remembered some of those things, and being able to remember something like that, like holding things loosely and not marking everything as failure. Instead, you know, like, what's next and what's like, what's the thing that I can take forward and move forward from that? So, yeah, I don't know. It's been a shift, you know.
Jivana Heyman 18:08
Yeah. Could you say more about what non attachment is, like the way you think of it?
Amber Karnes 19:25
The way I think of it like, it's like holding things loosely, you know, like, it doesn't mean that you don't care what the outcome is. It doesn't mean that you don't have values that you're striving towards, or goals, or any of that type of stuff. It doesn't even mean that you can't be disappointed if something doesn't turn out the way you thought it was going to, you know, like, emotions are real. But I think that if we attach our identity and our sense of worth and our sense of who we are at our core, not in like all the labels we have, like partner, daughter, employee, or whatever, all those things, but who we are as a person and deep down as a human being. If we start to attach ourselves to material possessions or to our degree, or what relationship we're in, or how our family turned out, or whatever, then I think we kind of miss the point. And then when that thing is taken away, or that thing shifts, or you don't have that thing anymore, then you have this sense that you're worthless, if your worth is attached to something that's outside of you. And so I think what I understand from the yoga teachings is that thing, that common humanity that we all share, like that Divine Spark, like everybody has kind of a different way they like to think about it, that's at the core of us, that's the thing to grab on to in those times when you don't feel sure of yourself.
Amber Karnes 21:05
I really do believe that we all have an innate worth as human beings. And it gets mixed up a lot of times. I think we get trained by our capitalistic society to equate our worth to our productivity, or we get trained by beauty standards to equate our youth or our skin wrinkles or whatever with different values. And I think that if we can kind of remember that at baseline, you know, when I think about what I value about the people in my life that are important to me, like my friends or my family, it's not how hot they are, like, if they have a six pack or like they drive a nice car. I actually don't really care about that stuff. The stuff that I value is their spirit, their ability to connect and to be part of the the wider web that's me. And I think that yoga has a lot to say about that and our interconnectedness, and that if we identify too strongly with any one thing or or role that we play, or whatever, then we miss that, that ability that we have to connect to each other more deeply.
Jivana Heyman 22:28
Yeah, thanks for saying that. I appreciate it, because I think, non attachment, I agree with you, is such an essential teaching that, I don't know, for some reason feels difficult to grasp. I think sometimes the teaching is maybe sometimesoversimplified to be about external things, like, about possessions, not owning things. But I think what you described it is so much more powerful about our identity and the things we're holding on to and also the way that we're perceived and the way we perceive the world. It's, feels like it's, well, actually, what I what I hear you saying, and I think you're saying, it's freedom, basically, from all of that.
Amber Karnes 23:15
I was gonna say, you know, this is like, a Jivana-ism that I have stuck in my head. It's like, non attachment, it's kind of confusing. It's like, telling you not to do something. It's like, the inverse of that is don't be attached is same as, be free. And so that's the result, if you can hold those things lightly that, you know, whatever it is that you think is yours, whether that's a possession or a role that you have or identity that you have, then you're able to just adapt and change as you need to. It causes less pain than resisting sometimes, like, the inevitable change that comes and like, the reality is not in front of us anymore, you know?
Jivana Heyman 24:06
I do. It's a hard one, though. It's easier said than done, just because I know, I've been teaching a course on Yoga for Older Adults, and it's just such a part of aging. It's really hard. It's really hard to let go. It's easy to say, like, I'm not attached to how I look, but then when you do get wrinkles, like, literally, I looked in the mirror the other day, I was like, wow. I got a lot of wrinkles! Because on Zoom, there's lots of filters and stuff. But I'm telling you, I'm all wrinkly now. Which is nice, and I'm like, wow, but it's change.
Amber Karnes 24:41
No, it is big change. And I definitely can identify with that one, like, my skin and my body has changed a lot over the past few years, and it's sort of like, you know, for me, I had this self image of what I looked like, and I had done a lot of work to accept that body. And now I have this other weird body that I haven't worked to accept, and I'm having all these thoughts that I don't like it, and then I have to, kind of wind that back, like, well why do I not like it? Who taught me that? It's like it's never done really, this learning to live in a body.
Jivana Heyman 25:19
But that gets to the heart of your work, in a way, right there, because that's the whole body positive thing isn't really that, it's just this kind of self acceptance, right? Are you still using that term?
Amber Karnes 25:31
Yeah. I mean, Body Positive Yoga is kind of the like creation that I taught under for a long time and I do still have that kind of label on the yoga retreats and stuff like that. So I think people, you know, they hear it and associate it with me. But also, that term 'body positive' has definitely shifted since I kind of picked it to describe the yoga I was doing back in 2010. It's definitely kind of shifted to what it is. And I think my personal philosophy kind of lies somewhere closer to body neutrality or body acceptance, because we don't always feel positive about our bodies. I think it's not a mandate to say false affirmations you don't believe. I think it's like, a lot of self help advice is like, stand in front of the mirror naked and tell yourself you're a goddess. It's like, oh my god, I can't do that, you know? But it's more about just confronting the body that you actually have today and trying to meet that body with love and acceptance, which is, is not always easy. And sometimes we can't get to love. Sometimes we can just get to accepting what is, or acknowledging that we have a body or something like that. It's not going to be feeling great about it every day.
Jivana Heyman 27:13
Right, it's non attachment.
Amber Karnes 27:01
Yeah, right. Exactly because the only thing that bodies are guaranteed to do is change, and so if you have this kind of identity based around the way that you look, right, that's going to be hard for you, because you know that your body is going to change, even if you're 20 years old right now, eventually you're not and you're gonna be like, welcome to where we are with, like, where did this wrinkle come from? Why is this hanging in this direction? It's bound to happen, and so I think if you can approach yourself with gentle expectations and just an acceptance of what is, that's a lot easier place to start than beating yourself up for something you can't necessarily be or something that society has taught us is more valuable for some reason. When if we really dig through what those reasons are, they don't lead to anywhere good, usually, you know, the beauty standards.
Jivana Heyman 28:00
I just love that about you, how you make it, the connection to power too, and the systems that we're living in. Because I feel like, that's where, to me, the social justice piece comes in and the political action part. It's like, actually, if we took back our power individually, in that sense, just of owning who we are and feeling like we deserve to be alive. We deserve to have our basic needs met, we deserve all that. I think we could then also see that in each other. It would just shift the way I think we interact and the way we come into community and the way we create society. We wouldn't be in the mess we're in. I feel like there's something about, I don't know what the word is, like desire or almost like an insatiable appetite, or that greed, you know, that kind of leads to the problems in our system, right? Like hoarding wealth and stuff, hoarding power, hoarding resources rather than sharing. And I feel like it starts here. It starts with our self image and self worth, right?
Amber Karnes 29:13
Yeah, I think so. And, you know, it's those kind of behaviors, the hoarding behaviors, or the you know, I need to prevent you from having rights, because it feels like my rights are being infringed on. All of those types of things are based in that fear, right? Fear that there's not enough to go around, fear that I won't have the best, fear that I won't be taken care of. You know, at baseline, if you really, really dug, like, what's behind that? And so I think you know, if you feel like your worth has to be tied to you being elevated above other people, or you having this amount of financial security, or whatever that is, it's going to be really hard for you to see other people in that same light, like what you were just talking about. Once you kind of realize, like, oh, like, I am sacred and deserve to have my needs met, and all of that, like, being able to recognize that in other people too. I think it's harder if you haven't really grasped that concept that your worth isn't tied to any of that stuff either. So just because you have more than someone, it doesn't make you better.
Jivana Heyman 30:29
It's so hard though. I struggle with it all the time. I think the way that I was trained, like, the culture of it, it's to actively fight against it. That's kind of why I do my practice, honestly, is just to kind of resist that limiting thinking that something I feel like I've been given or that I've taken on just because of the way my ego works. You know what I mean? It's a combination of maybe ego and culture together, kind of human nature. Because if you look, I mean, here we are, we're kind of in a mess right now in this moment. But if you go back, like, think about the yoga teachings and how old they are, obviously they had similar problems, like, 2000 years ago, because they're talking about the same.
Amber Karnes 31:13
Human nature, you know?
Jivana Heyman 31:16
Yeah, so, I guess what I was trying to say, though, is that I don't want people to feel bad if they're struggling with it because it's so hard. I'm just really there too, like every day, like acknowledging that I'm worthy and that, you know, I have what I need inside, or whatever it is. I don't know what the things are I need to need to look in the mirror and say. [laughing]
Amber Karnes 31:40
I know. It's interesting, when you're saying that, I'm kind of like, yeah, how do I remind myself about that stuff? Because, I definitely do not do it perfect. And I've had many times in the past few years that I felt like a loser. Even call myself a loser, or whatever. You know, it's very easy to get there. And I think, you know, one thing that has really helped me is keeping promises to myself. So I think something that I've noticed about myself as I've been spending a little time digging deep into questions and looking back the past few years, is that I do, tend to spend a lot of time externally focused, like on my partner, or what I need to do for my students, or making sure that this person is taken care of, but maybe I wouldn't necessarily extend the same care to myself. And so a lot of times, the things that I know that I would need to do to take care of myself, like going to the gym or cooking food that supports me, or whatever, getting enough sleep, like that kind of stuff, just sort of always be pushed to the back.
Amber Karnes 33:00
And one of the things that I've been able to do since I've been living here is really form those habits and be able to take better care of myself. And I've just been really amazed at how big of a difference that's made, when I'm doing it versus when I'm not. And I almost feel like, when I prove to myself over and over again that it's worth it to do it, even if it's just me. Like, it's worth it to cook a nutritious meal or make time to go to the gym, even if I'm behind on work, or whatever it is. Those kinds of things of just like, I said I was going to do it, so I'm gonna do it, because I'm important enough to do that for, I think it's made a shift that I didn't really realize at first. This subtle underpinning of, like with so many things that I felt like I had failed at. Like I had this divorce and I had this work stuff that didn't work out, and all of these, like, I moved in with my parents at 42 you know, some people would consider that a failure. If I'm focusing on those things, it was a little harder to believe that I can't do stuff or that I'm not able to follow through when Iwas following through on this other stuff for myself. And so it really, I think, affected me in a way that I wasn't expecting. It's sort of like, oh yeah, you know, the messages in society is like, well, you should go to the gym if you're a good person, or to stay healthy or whatever. But for me, it kind of ended up serving this totally different purpose, of, like, I built some self trust, which allowed me to take bigger risks, like with work, or to change up the way that I was doing something. And that's really been a powerful practice.
Jivana Heyman 34:57
I love that so much, because I think that what you're doing is you're creating a relationship with yourself, like with your mind. And I feel like that's what yoga is about, it's about that inner relationship. So it's like you're doing your yoga. And when you have that foundation, I feel like it makes everything else easier, and also means that you can be more stable in the midst of other challenges, like as other problems come up, you have some kind of sense of connection with yourself because you're taking care of that place. One other thought I had is, so I really appreciate you saying that, and I had a thought about this looking in the mirror thing and saying nice... but it made me realize something, which is, I have a, you know, my morning practice, I sit in front of an altar, which I create, which is, my altar has just things I like. Do you know what I mean? Like, I created an altar that's just like a space that makes me feel good. It says the little table, and I have pictures of a lot of the people that I've lost in my life, and some stones and shells and things like a statue that my dad gave me, like things that are meaningful. And what I realized the other day is, and maybe I've said this before, is that it's basically a mirror. That that's like looking in the mirror, like for me, that when I go to sit at the altar, I'm trying to see the best in myself, like I'm recognizing what I love in those people, like the beauty that they were and what they've given me. And I feel like that's what my practice is, spending time with my best self.
Amber Karnes 36:26
That's awesome.
Jivana Heyman 36:27
Looking in that mirror.
Amber Karnes 36:29
I love that.
Jivana Heyman 36:30
And it gives me strength. And in fact, sometimes when I'm not feeling well, or if I'm just upset about something, I'll actually picture it in my mind and just think of that, you know, like, think of those people, or think of that space, and it really gives me strength.
Amber Karnes 36:45
That's really beautiful. I love that.
Jivana Heyman 36:47
Yeah, and I love what you're sharing. And by the way, I just want to talk about one little thing you mentioned about how, you know, moving back home with your parents and at this age, and I just want to say, like, what an amazing service that is. Because, both my parents passed away a few years ago, but my husband's mom is pretty old and having some challenges, and there's so much involved in getting older and being an older adult and it's so hard to navigate that. And having the support of a child who's an adult there is just so meaningful and important and I just want to say, basically by being there, you're taking on more. You're actually doing more work, making life harder [laughing], because you're supporting them. I just know that and I just want to say, so for people who are living at home as adults, I just really appreciate that. I think it's just a beautiful thing to do. I hope that my kids are mature enough to eventually move back home. Actually, my son still lives here. He's in the next room, and he's 23, but he's moving out soon. But yeah, like, come back in 10 years. You know what I mean?
Amber Karnes 37:56
Yeah, definitely. It's been good for me to spend more time with them too and not just like, oh, on the holidays or whenever I get a chance to come down and I get to experience a different side of them than, like, at family gatherings. Everybody has, you know, their personality. But then it's like, you get to be around people and be around them when they're bored and when they're doing their normal routines. And it's really special to have that time with them too and be able to help out, and, you know, they're helping me. So it's like that, you know...
Jivana Heyman 38:28
It's family. I mean, I don't think, I think in most, in a lot of cultures around the world, that's normal, like you just live all together, intergenerationally.
Amber Karnes 38:35
I think that intergenerational living, yeah, it's much more common outside of the US, you know.
Jivana Heyman 38:39
And it's important for many, for all of us, you know, for all the generations, to learn from each other and to to get to know each other and to support each other. I mean, that's what family is for. So I don't know, to me, it feels really beautiful
Amber Karnes 38:54
Yeah, it is. It's been a big help to me, and putting me in a different environment where I can really focus on, you know, I wanted to be able to build a new life for myself, and I'm doing that, you know. And so it's been really a gift to to have the time and the space to do that, and the support, and live in a nice house, and, you know, have my parents there as a resource. So yeah, I feel very fortunate to have that option.
Jivana Heyman 39:22
That's beautiful. It's funny, while you're talking, I was just having like a deja vu of just all the conversations we've had [laughing]. I was just like, oh my God!
Amber Karnes 39:36
I know so many hours of them are recorded, and so many other hours that are not. We have talked a lot.
Jivana Heyman 39:43
I miss that, though. Oh my gosh, wow. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for being here and doing this with me again. It's like old times. And I missed it. I miss you. And yeah, this one is special for me.
Amber Karnes 39:58
Yeah, it's been great to talk with you. I miss you guys, too.
Jivana Heyman 40:02
Oh Amber, you're so amazing. All right, anything else you want to share?
Amber Karnes 40:07
My goodness, I don't know. No, I think I just, I really appreciate you and the influence that you've had on my teaching. And I'm so excited for you to do this series, and celebrate. And here's the 30 more.
Jivana Heyman 40:25
Thanks, Amber. Actually, I was thinking one other thing, we might have an actual celebration. I haven't announced this publicly because I don't know what it is yet, but in late May, it's the anniversary of my actual graduation, 30 years ago from a 200 hour training, even though I'd actually been studying for years before that to be a teacher, but I finally took a 200. So that's the date that I think it's, the 24th of May or so. Anyway, I might have a little online gathering, so hopefully you'll come.
Amber Karnes 40:53
Oh yeah, definitely. Let me know.
Jivana Heyman 40:55
Yeah, maybe you could DJ like old times.
Amber Karnes 40:57
Oh snap. Now the people are ready for that. We gotta give them what they want! [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 41:04
Oh my God! Okay. Also, I would just say anyone who's listening leave a voicemail or message about Amber and how much you miss her. Or anything, about anything you want. All right. Thanks, Amber.
Amber Karnes 41:17
Thanks, Jivana. (Bye.) Bye.
Jivana Heyman 41:20
I'm so excited about our new sponsor, Yogamatters. They've been faithfully supporting yoga teachers, practitioners, and studios around the world for over 25 years. Listeners can enjoy an exclusive 15% off all Yogamatters mats and props using the code JIVANA15 at checkout. And I love their products. I've been using their props recently, and they're amazing. I especially love the natural hemp products, so make sure to go check them out.
Jivana Heyman 42:14
Welcome back, everyone. I'm here with Deanna. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:19
Hello, Jivana. Hello, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 42:21
How are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:23
I am doing well, it's a beautiful spring day here. How are you doing?
Jivana Heyman 42:27
I'm good. I'm good. I'm enjoying this part of the podcast, for people that are just joining us, basically we're doing this Q&A follow up portion where people can leave their messages or write comments, and then we respond here, which I love. I've really loved doing this so far and making it feel more interactive. I love hearing what people think. So please send us your comments. There's links in the show notes if you are listening to this now.
Deanna Michalopoulos 42:59
And your conversation with Amber was so good. I love Amber. I can't help but want to hang out with her. And it sounds like, you know, from all the retreats and online circles she's running, there plenty of opportunities to.
Jivana Heyman 43:12
Yeah, I hope people will follow up with her and spend time with her. She's amazing. I miss her too. It was so nice to talk to her and get to just be with her again. It's been so long. We used to work together so much. And, you know, it's funny, it's like, it was such an intense time, and then all of a sudden, we're on our own journeys again. And it's sad. So, yeah, I appreciate what she said. Also, I love the way she teaches and talks about yoga, because she's so straightforward and clear and down to earth. She's always helped me in that way. I can kind of get intellectual and talk about things, you know, I don't know why I could go on and on, and she's just like, nope. It's this. Non attachment.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:02
It's so accessible in that real life way. And there are a lot of pieces of the podcast that I wrote down, but you know, like, don't be attached is the same as being free. And that little pivot of perspective was like, oh, yeah. It's not like, oh, we have to work to let something go. It's just, oh, we're working toward a freedom there, which is cool
Jivana Heyman 44:26
It's a positive right? Non attachment is a positive thing, and I love how she connects it directly to body image and our self perception, and that she uses her personal life experience so openly, when she talks about the struggle she's had, you know, like getting divorced and moving back in with her parents and all that stuff. And I just, I don't know, she always, she always touches me. And actually, I have to say, Amber made a huge impact on yoga in general. I mean, I remember, she was on the cover of Yoga Journal, just, you know, when we were working together. It was so exciting to get her, to see her celebrated in that way, and to feel like yoga was changing and shifting. And I think she really was one of the key people who started this body positive, body neutral movement within the yoga world. And I just hope she gets that attention that she deserves, that people recognize her for what she's done.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:31
Yeah, offering her that credit, and even so much credit to her for taking a pause to recalibrate. It sounded like after the pandemic, or during, there was a need to pause and regroup and really take stock of things. And I think it's so easy for anybody to kind of keep going on a track. It's like, okay, I'm being celebrated for this one thing, I should keep doing it. To her credit, to herself, her practice that she had the self awareness to say, no, I need a time out. And now she's back, and it sounds like having a great time and doing what she loves, even if it's hard work.
Jivana Heyman 46:04
Yeah, actually, I don't know if I've ever heard of her so happy, in a sense. I mean, not like, happy, like effusive, but kind of content and peaceful with herself. I'm so excited about that, so happy. So thank you again, Amber. Thanks for being on the podcast and everything that you've done for me. She really has helped me so much. She helped me move online. She helped create the Accessible Yoga School, which is really the online platform that we're still using. And this podcast, she basically started it, she was co host with me for years, and there's still, I think, if we go back in the seasons, if you look back at earlier seasons of the Accessible Yoga Podcast, you'll find her and I, we had many conversations together, and then we'd also interview people. And I loved it. I loved that, in fact, doing this with you, Deanna is similar to that. That's why I wanted you here. I just love that conversation that she and I had. I feel like it's a really nice way to share this information, rather than just like me talking endlessless.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:09
I can't live up to Amber Karnes, but I'm happy to be here.
Jivana Heyman 47:14
No, you don't have to. You're amazing. You're doing a great job. I really appreciate what you're doing, Deanna, too. But anyway, thank you, Amber and yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts. If you have comments or any questions about anything that Amber shared, please leave us a voicemail, a message or write a comment on our Google Form. I'd love to hear from you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:37
That's a good segue, Jivana, because we have two new voicemails this week. (Yay!) And let's just dive right in, and I'm going to play our first voicemail now.
Tyi-Sanna Jones 47:50
Jivana, this is Tyi-Sanna Jones from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I just wanted to say thank you so much for hosting Tamika for this last podcast. I'm just catching up with you guys. So I am like in love. I love hearing her speak and teach. And there were several things that stuck out to me, definitely aligning for the fact, here I am a black woman in the larger body. And most of my life, there were situations where I felt like I wasn't enough or I was just too much, and finding self in my learning and understanding and appreciation of yoga has been such a beautiful part of my journey over the last 10 years, and she just said several things that just have really resonated with my story and just where I am right now in this journey. And when she she spoke about not having to change yourself or change anything about yourself in yoga, you just get to exist. And the first time that I really got into yoga, this is the exact sentiment. And the only thing I had to worry about was what was on my mat. In the series that I write for myself, I haven't published anything, and I haven't shared. I'm working on sharing in this part of where I am right now, is like the only thing I have to worry about is what's on this mat. I'm not worried about anybody else, what anybody else is doing on their mat, what they're dealing with, what their body looks like, but just really understanding what's happening.
Jivana Heyman 49:18
It gets cut-off. (90 seconds goes by fast.) It's only 90 seconds. I'm sorry, that's too bad. But I think I understood what, is it Tyi-Sanna was saying. I mean, thank you for that message. And I agree, I love that episode with Tamika. And actually, I feel like this episode with Amber is connected to that, you know, that same kind of idea of non attachment and just like being with what is, and letting go of being different, more or less. I love what you just said about that, not being enough or being too much. That really summarizes it, beautifully. Anyway, I hope you will share. I'm glad you're writing and please do share it with the world. We need to hear from you. And thanks again for leaving a message. I really appreciate it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:12
Tyi-Sanna, share your writing! We want to hear more.
Jivana Heyman 50:17
Yeah, it's funny. You know, Amber used to talk about this too. Sometimes, like, I think those of us who really struggle in the world, you know, either we have some kind of marginalized identity, we've experienced some kind of oppression, it's like, sometimes it really impacts our self perception, our self image, and we don't feel like we're good enough to be a yoga teacher or to be a writer or to be, you know, whatever, and that's the real damage that oppression does. I mean, there's also obviously physical harm, but to me, the real dangerous when it gets inside, you know, when that negative external message becomes internalized, and we start to think there's something wrong with us. And I feel like overcoming that is such a big piece of what yoga offered to me, just as a queer person, and I mean, I'm still working on it. I just want to say, to me that's the gift of yoga. And just giving me confidence to speak and teach, and I feel like it does it for others, and I hope it does, I hope it really does it for others. I think those are the voices we need to hear more from. Those are the leaders we need, right? We need leaders who have an experience of what it's like to not always have things go your way, to have challenges in life, we need leaders who have empathy and compassion. That's how we create the world we want to see. So that's the challenge, right? We've let the oppression become the way we think about ourselves, and we have to overcome that. But I think yoga offers a way.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:02
Yeah, it's kind of, I guess I'm going back to what Amber said as well. You know, if you attach your worth to something outside of yourself, then it's easy to feel disconnected from that worth that's inherent in all of us. And so, like, you know, yoga really does create that space to, as Tyi-Sanna just said, to just be.
Jivana Heyman 52:22
Yeah. I remember when COVID started and Amber, like me, we both were basically full time traveling yoga teachers, like we both survived by teaching all over the world, live trainings, in person. And all of a sudden that stopped, and I had to cancel and refund so much money and cancel so many trips. It was devastating, financially and just emotionally. And I remember Amber really struggled to overcome that. I think for me, I'm an introvert, so I was kind of relieved, in a way. I was like, okay, I don't have to do all this. But it was really hard for her and she figured it out. You know, she paused and then figured it out.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:07
Well, we have one more message in the inbox that I'd love to share today, and it's a question. So, I'll go ahead and play the question.
Taylor 53:13
Hi, Jivana. My name is Taylor. I use she/her pronouns, and I'm really enjoying the podcast series, and thank you so much for having this space available for people to listen in on your conversations. I'm not really sure how to frame this as a question, but it's something I've been thinking about lately. When I look to yoga philosophy, I can't help but think how these texts were written, interpreted, and studied by men of a certain caste or class privilege. So when they talk about things like non attachment, ignorance, suffering, that thought has kind of been in the back of my mind. And as a person with privilege myself, I want to be mindful in how I discuss these teachings with other folks. So I wonder if you have any thoughts you'd like to share on that? Thanks so much again, and congrats on 30 years.
Jivana Heyman 54:12
Oh my God, that's such a great question. Thank you, Taylor. Thanks for calling in and for congratulating me. I appreciate it. Um, it's such a good question. I have so many thoughts about that. Where should we begin? Well, the first thing that comes to mind, of course, is Anjali's new book. That's just the top of my head, because I talk to Anjali all the time, and I'm just so excited for her, and so excited for the yoga world to read her book. It doesn't come out till the fall, but I've had a chance to read it already, and basically that's really what the book is about. It's a history of yoga through the lens of casteism and gender issues, like really reflecting on the role of women and non binary people through the history of yoga. The book is divided related to two parts. She has kind of a history and and then the second part is actually, she's found four individual characters, not characters, like people. Some are kind of mythical, and some are real teachers through yoga history, women and non binary people that she shares, and she shares them and their teaching. And I find that really inspiring. I think Anjali is work as an example of what's needed. You know, I think that Taylor is touching on something important. We need to listen to other voices and find those threads through yoga history, because I think she's right that most of the yoga teachings that we have today have been shared through a particular lens that includes caste privilege and also usually straight men.
Jivana Heyman 56:04
I think there are a few character again, I don't want to use characters, why am I saying that word? But it's like there are a few people. See, the thing is, they're not people. What are they? What do you call them, Deanna? (Figures? Mythological figures.) But some of them are real, that's the thing. It reminds me when we talk about, for example, someone I talk about a lot is Ashtavakra. So Ashtavakra is a great example, I think, of someone who we can look at. He was, I think, a real person, but he's also kind of a fabled figure in yoga and mythology, and so it's like, kind of like Patanjali too, in a way. Like Patanjali, I think, probably was a person, but also isn't really a person. You know, he's like something else. And he's even portrayed, Patanjali, portrayed as like, half man, half serpent. So even, no, he's like a demi god. Anyway. So there are these like figures within the yoga tradition, and you're like, okay, are they real people? Are they mythological? Who knows? Anyway, Ashtavakra is someone I'm interested in, because he was disabled. He was clearly a disabled person. His name means eight bends, and he was born with a disability, and there's a lot of discussion about that in the literature. And yet he was this, maybe the most important yoga teacher of all time. He was considered like the Master Guru. He was the guru of King Janaka, who was another really important figure. So I love Ashtavakra, just to hear that, you know, a disabled voice, I think, in yoga, and it's beautiful. What he teaches is incredible.
Jivana Heyman 57:35
But my other thought for Taylor, which, again, I'll try to keep it short, but I'll say this is also why I think it's okay to interpret the yoga teachings based on your current experience of them. And what I mean by that is, I don't want to change history, like, okay, so and so said that, that's the teaching. Here's a quote from then, but my experience of it is blank. And I think, you know, I think there's a real validity to doing that, to interpreting something that's ancient and making it alive for you now. And that's kind of what I tried to do, especially in my book Yoga Revolution. That's the other one that came to mind, because in that book, I really try and talk about, how can I apply the yoga teachings in my life now? You know where I am right now, and what are the pieces of yoga that help us focus more on service and social justice? And this is my personal perspective. I'm not saying that's what yoga means. I'm not trying to rewrite history. I'm trying to offer a perspective from where I am now in this moment, on something that came before me. And I think that's needed. I think Taylor, you can do that too. You know, you can read the teachings directly. Well, maybe not directly. Maybe you're reading a translation, I don't know. So be careful of the translation you're reading and who's the translator. But you can do that and then kind of make your own judgment. It also reminds me of the translation thing. Makes me think of Nischala Joy Devi. I don't know if you know her, but she's one of my teachers, and she's translated the Sutras, and now is about to release a translation of the Gita from a woman's perspective. And I think that's a really interesting idea. Again, I think that's quite different than what Anjali is doing, which is going back through yoga history and finding those voices. But I think what nistial is doing is quite interesting too, which is, again, looking at it from here, like looking at it from this perspective now, what do I see? And I think that's maybe what I was trying to do in Yoga Revolution. So what do you think Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:56
So it's a beautiful process of integration. That's what comes to mind. And I think that, you know, even like Jivana, your posts on social media, like you could take a sutra and give it to five different practitioners or teachers and say, hey, create a few paragraphs about what this means to you. And the thread might be the same thread, of course, but like, you know, the common, the source is the same, but everyone kind of internalizes it and integrates it a bit differently, and everyone will take something away from your experience, your integration a little differently too. Maybe that's the beauty of it? Universal, but also personal in that way.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:38
Yeah, you know, you're reminding me of something else that's important, I think, and is often lost. And that is that within the tradition of yoga, I think there's a lot of healthy debate that was essential. It was an essential part of learning, which is, you know, a respectful discussion. There would be forums, you know, people would have multiple teachers who would come and would debate on what something meant. And it was, I think it was important to have that available. And I see it happening a little bit these days on social media. I can think of one, in particular, that's happening right now between academics, like I see it in the academic yoga studies world, or this debate all the time, sometimes not so respectful, but I feel like that a healthy debate, a healthy discussion on what something means is really, really helpful. And in a way, like you said, you could take one teaching, one sutra even, and look at multiple ways of understanding it. In fact, you could look at multiple translations.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:40
And that's the other thing I really like to do, that might help Taylor too, is to consider, like, when you go and study a text like the Yoga Sutras, is, don't just read one, but read a few. And it can be an investment, you know, or you can do it online these days too. You can find some free PDFs, but, you know, like, get a few different books and then really analyze the different ways that they translate the same sutra. It's unbelievable. If you take 'yogas chitta vritti nirodha' in Book One, Sutra Two of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, you will see the most bizarre different ways of translating that sutra, which is considered the most important teaching of yoga, with completely different words. So it's like, part of it is the original teaching, who was that coming from? Who was it written for? And then who is translating it, and what is their positionality as well? Quite intriguing. Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:38
Thanks for starting that conversation, Taylor.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:41
Yeah, I'm gonna think about it more, but I really appreciate that question and more. I want more questions!
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:49
And Taylor, if you feel reflection after hearing this, like, yeah, call in again and let us know.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:56
Yeah, call in again. And yeah, you know, I just love that. I love people's personal exploration. I love to hear about, like, where you're at, and it's funny, I know part of this, this season is, for me, reflecting on 30 years of teaching, I think sometimes what I've lost in 30 years is that kind of beginner's mind. And like, sometimes I forget the parts of this journey that are hard. I mean, I still have challenges, for sure, like living yoga, but other than that, I'm just saying, like, I forget that sometimes there's certain pieces along the way that are more challenging to understand, or something. And so that's kind of what I want to know too, like, what am I missing? So any other thoughts, Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:47
I think that feels complete. We can leave it here.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:50
Great. All right. Well, thanks everyone, and thank you, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:54
Thanks, Jivana. Thanks, Amber.
Jivana Heyman 1:03:56
Yeah, thank you, Amber, and we'll look forward to being with you next time.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:04:02
Bye, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:02
Bye.
