Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:40
Hi, everyone, I'm excited to be back here with my friend and fellow teacher M Camellia. Hey, M how are you?
M Camellia 00:00:50
I'm alright.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:53
It's funny to be interviewing here, because we work together all the time. So. But thank you for doing this.
M Camellia 00:01:02
Sure.
Jivana Heyman 00:01:03
I love the way you speak on power and consent. And I just thought it'd be so great to share that as part of this project. You know, the project is talking about how teachers can make their teaching more accessible. And I feel like this is really maybe one of the core principles. And I just wonder if you could talk about that a little bit the role of power and consent in teaching in particular, I guess?
M Camellia 00:01:31
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I would always start with power. In any relationship, there's a power dynamic. And that's no different in a Yoga space. And as teachers, we hold disproportionate power in the student teacher dynamic, and wherever we hold disproportionate power, I think we also own disproportionate responsibility that comes along with that. So I think we're responsible for recognizing the power dynamics at play in Yoga class, and for also mitigating the ways in which they may disempower our students. I think we do that, not by giving away our own power, unnecessarily. I don't think we can just abdicate our responsibility or our privilege in that way, like, in the ways that I hold disproportionate power as a teacher, I can't just give up the role of teacher, I can't just, you know, give up my white privilege, it's going to exist because of dominant culture and the way society is enforcing that. But instead of giving away our own power, I think we can leverage our power and use it to create more access for our students, particularly access to their own innate power and resources. And I think this means using our power to make more resources available in the room, which could be options for practice, variations of postures, it could be props. I also think its share of voice, ensuring that our students have an equitable share of voice in the room, and that their needs and desires are heard, respected, and hopefully met. And as I sort of alluded to, I think we also need to look at the ways we're privileged within dominant culture, and work to leverage that power as well towards equity and accessibility in the room, rather than intentionally or unintentionally wielding it over students with oppressed and marginalized identities that we don't hold.
Jivana Heyman 00:03:36
Okay, wait. So, first of all, I just love that the framing of resources as even just props in the room, or like options for practice, because I don't think I've ever really thought of it that way, just that. But it's so obvious, right? Like, these are resources that people have access to, like, if you understand that, practices can be done different ways, you have more options, you have more resources, you can care for yourself more fully, than if you have this false notion that it's only one way and so the teacher in a way, but just by showing, like variations in a pose, they're sharing resources,right?
M Camellia 00:04:11
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I, when I talk about this, I, I often say that I think of power and resources as synonymous that more resources you have access to, the more power you ultimately have at your disposal.
Jivana Heyman 00:04:25
And also, I love that idea. Well, this focus on power in general. And I've heard you speak in the past about the relationship between that and the yoga teachings like how Yoga teachings are about power, and you started actually, the first sentence was about how that connects us to our innate power. And I just wonder if you could speak about that some more?
M Camellia 00:04:46
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that the teachings tell us that we all have the spark of the divine within us and that is, that is real power, if you ask me. You know, to know that we are divinity incarnate, um, that gives us sort of an innate power right. It's more about recognizing it then, then about like, making it so. I don't know if that's very eloquent. But...
Jivana Heyman 00:05:31
No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And it already is there.
M Camellia 00:05:35
It already is. Yeah. And I think through the practice of Yoga, we're asked to change our orientation from one of an external awareness focused on the things and the authority figures and the rules and the guidelines and whatever else there is outside of ourselves and really to reorient towards an internal sense of authority that is that spark of divine within us. And through the practice of Yoga, we get to reorient, but also get to know the different layers of our being and our existence, get to know ourselves. And in getting to know this incarnation of ourselves, getting to know our human selves, I think that is key to distinguishing what part of us is our human incarnation, and what part of us is divine and eternal. And, yeah, and permanent.
Jivana Heyman 00:06:32
But just to go further with that, I'm curious about your thoughts on Yoga as like a discipline and like how, I don't know, like, how discipline plays into this, because I get that, you know, we need, I mean, I share that idea that, you know, Yoga is about returning to ourselves, right? Remembering the essence of who we are, and, and that we're already, we already all have it, and we're already full. And we just have to remember that. And that's what, that's what the teachings are having us do. But it feels like there's a discipline involved. That can sometimes feel like an external authority. So maybe I'm answering myself, but I mean, do you have thoughts about that? Like, I guess it's internalizing the discipline?
M Camellia 00:07:23
I think it is, I think it is internalizing the discipline or finding your specific reason for being disciplined. I don't think that any practice is going to be sustainable if we don't have an internal will and drive and desire to do it. And so I think, for me, at least a lot of what creates that discipline is actually finding what about practice, what ways of practicing are pleasurable to me? What ways of practicing can I sustain through my own desire, my own will, rather than having any external enforcement placed upon me. And through exploring various practices with different teachers and different styles and exploring the teachings. I've gotten a better sense of what that looks like, for me. And it's very different from when I started my Yoga practice, and was very much answering to almost exclusively external authority. And, you know, dominant cultures, reasons for why I might take a Yoga class were very different from the reasons that I practice now.
Jivana Heyman 00:08:35
But I still I guess I'm still at that, like you mentioned pleasurable to me. And I just feel like that's not always pleasurable, like, I don't know, I mean, I guess mostly, my practices, but I don't know.
M Camellia 00:08:54
In hiking, they talk about there being type one fun and type two fun. And I think of it a little bit like that type one fun, is, you know, like, I'm enjoying myself in every moment of what I'm doing and it's actively pleasurable to me. Type two fun being like, actually, the act of doing this isn't necessarily fun in the moment, but I know that I'm receiving benefit from it. And after I'm done, I feel good, I feel better, I feel some sense of accomplishment or pleasure. And I think about it that way, as well, that my practice in the moment isn't always pure pleasure. Like there are things that I dislike, there are things that don't feel as good some days. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I'm benefiting from it, and I can recognize that.
Jivana Heyman 00:09:49
I love that, I love that. I think that's the discipline of Yoga. It's not it's not that it's not, I mean, sometimes it's enjoyable, and sometimes it's not. But you know that there's a purpose. And if you've experienced the benefit, like enough to know that, and I definitely have that feeling. It is it is easy to see an exercise. I know for me biking, like there's times where biking is not fun, but I know what biking in general is fun and part of the work is biking up the hill. So you can bike down fast. It kind of goes together. All right, but I want to get more into like the role of a teacher because, I just maybe, I know it's so obvious to you, but I wonder if you could talk about some of the ways that maybe, even unconsciously, that we do kind of impose a structure of, I don't know, externalizing, expecting students as teachers to externalize authority. To let us tell them what to do. Like how it's kind of the whole, it feels like it's the whole thing, right? The whole structure of teacher student relationship of being in a classroom that's being, you know, that system is then replicated within the Yoga space.
M Camellia 00:10:59
Definitely, I mean, I think that there are multiple factors at play. I think there is our cultural understanding of what a teacher is and what their role is, which comes from mostly our scholastic education, right, like going to school having a teacher as children, that teacher being an adult who has the power of being an adult, and also being in that position of authority as teacher, we're very used to that structure, one person holding power over the class. And I think we recreate that structure over and over again, in the spaces that we create for any kind of learning, including Yoga. I think there's also potentially ego at play for any given teacher, right? Like we spend all this time studying, reading, taking trainings, you know, resourcing ourselves with that knowledge and that wisdom from practice. And I think there's part of us that wants to be recognized for that. And I think that comes into play as well, we are looking for that recognition. And we sometimes think that our role is then to give that power that we hold, those resources that we've gained through our learning and our practice, to our students. And again, I would emphasize that I just, I don't think it's about giving away our power, or us needing to hold that power over students and make them do whatever we say that they need to do in order to access it. I think it already belongs to them. So what we need to do is leverage that power, what we need to do is create access to the power within. And that looks very different than traditional learning environments, where we're standing at the head of the class holding the knowledge keeping the knowledge and parceling it out in snippets and saying here, if you do this, if you put your body in this position, if you do this breath practice, if you do exactly what I'm telling you to do, then you will have access to power. Right? It's a removal of the barriers that keep people from accessing power.
Jivana Heyman 00:13:15
So what would that look like? If you could give an example. Just like options, like choice?
M Camellia 00:13:23
Yeah, I think we need to create more opportunities for choice making and practicing choice making, and opportunities to tap into our own will and desire. I think it's very uncommon in our culture, for us to exist in spaces that want us to practice active choice making and listening to an internal authority. I think our work structures, even the nuclear family structure, the medical establishment, the legal system, they're all set up into these hierarchies, where we're often placed on a lower rung than somebody else, who ultimately is the deciding factor over whether we have access to what we need or not. And when we recreate that in Yoga spaces, it's like we're telling our students that they need us and they need our authority, and they need to do whatever we're telling them to do in order to access their power. And I don't think that that's ultimately true. I think our role is really, to be there as a space holder and a remover of obstacles. A remover of barriers. What does that look like? I think it looks like creating those opportunities for active choice making. I think we need to give a certain amount of guidance so that people don't get just completely confused or lose, you know, the train of practice. But I think even if we give two options, that's better than one. You know. And if we can personalize the practice a little bit to each students and give options that are going to work for them in their bodies and their minds, that goes a long way. It gives them the opportunity to make that choice for themselves. I think we also need to listen to students more and be in dialogue with students more and hear about what the experience is that they're having. Because so often, I know I've taken classes and I've taught classes where instead of listening to students, it's almost like I'm performing, like giving a performance and not to be interrupted. And I think that in Yoga culture, that's sort of something we've created and perpetuated that teaching ends up looking like the performance of something that we've rehearsed and, isn't much of a dialogue or an improvisational exercise. And I think it needs to be a little more improvisational, like at this point. I know that to teach the way I want to teach to show up the way I want to show up, I can't over prepare my class, I prepare some I prepare a theme, a teaching that I want to share, I think about what physical expressions might feel resonant and related to that theme. But I know that until I get there, and I meet the students, and I can check in with them and figure out what their needs and desires are in that moment, things are going to have to shift and change. So I practice the skill of improvising as often as I can. And that means getting creative. And I know when you talk about accessibility, you're talking a lot about creativity and improvising in the moment based on who is there and what they need at that moment in time.
Jivana Heyman 00:16:53
I like that word improvising. I hadn't thought of it that way. I like that, versus performing. But also, you know, you're talking about how just the the culture that we need to change the kind of the hierarchy that exists within most learning systems, and we replicate within Yoga. But I was thinking that, that demands extra work and introspection on the behalf on the part of the teacher because since we were trained that way, I think normally we think I have to just replicate that. Like if I'm going to be a teacher, I have to be like my teacher. And so it's a continuous system that I actually, and it's a lot like maybe the last thing I want to ask you about is, why this is just particularly important in spiritual teachings? Because I feel like if you look at Yoga, at least in recent history, there has been so much abuse and trauma in the Yoga lineages, especially with well, yeah, all kinds. And I think that's why I feel like this conversation is particularly important for Yoga teachers to have, because there's obviously a lack of consent going on. There's obviously a power dynamic that's being abused. Because I would say there seems like there's more abuse within Yoga than maybe within other similar areas of study. And that's interesting to me and concerning greatly. So I just wondered, I don't know, like, is that because spirituality is like, I don't know what it just offers access to power? Like, I'm not sure what it is about spiritual traditions that potentially lead to abuse. I mean, you could see it in the Catholic church even right, like a lot of abuse there. And here.
M Camellia 00:18:35
Yeah, I do think that spirituality is very deep and very personal. And it is interwoven with all other aspects of who we are, and how we hold ourselves. I mean, if you think about the power of faith in anything, you can recognize that what you believe, what you hold sacred, is going to be part of every decision that you make, potentially. You know, your value system, the way that you orient towards morality, it's all going to be influenced and even defined by your spiritual beliefs, and your your most deeply held sacred beliefs. And so, I think when we are talking about communities that are practicing any sort of spirituality or religion, we are talking about people who are coming together under the auspices of shared belief, and specifically, like, deeply held foundational core beliefs. And when we don't recognize the power dynamics that are at play with any, within any learning environment or or spiritual tradition where there is a leader per se, then we are setting ourselves up to exploit the dynamic that exists, even if it's unintentional. And that's where I think that ego can come in. That's where I think that that dominant cultural conditioning can come in and play a role. But I think we need to be particularly careful when, you know, we're teaching or talking about or asking people to explore deep spiritual beliefs, and particularly when we're pairing that with embodied practice, which most of us teaching you In the West are. If we're teaching the spiritual aspects of Yoga, we're at least pairing that with sana and pranayama. And embodied practice. And in what we ask people to do, they're literally going to embody. It's so powerful.
Jivana Heyman 00:20:54
Right? And it just feels like deeply ironic, if that's the word of like, to have a practice that is all about the power that we all have inside. And yet it's being used often against us. Like, it's often being used by a teacher to abuse us. And I mean, I've, I've seen it, I've been involved, it's like, it's just, it's unbelievable to me. And just so frustrating, because I feel like it's, we basically take this tradition that is really focused on that inner power, that inner potential, and then we kind of use it against people. I don't know, it just feels like there's something deeply frustrating to me and concerning and beyond ironic, like, like, just really, yeah, concerning. That I think it makes it essential for Yoga teachers to have more consciousness around this and not just repeat the patterns that they've been trained. And we all need to pause and look at the way we hold space as Yoga teachers, and really make sure that we're not just repeating what we were told to do, and really check in and see that like, what is that? Like you said, what is the relationship and how are we sharing power with our students? I said that was the last thing but I have one quick more question for you. Which is, it might be too personal. But I wonder if you could talk about your tattoos because I know that you've literally like embodied this idea of consent on your body. Would you mind talking about that?
M Camellia 00:22:02
Sure. Yeah, I had had the idea, a number of years ago, to tattoo the word "Yes", on the ring finger of my left hand, which is where people traditionally wear a wedding band. And I didn't do it right away. But the idea was that I, I really want to, and a goal of mine has been to follow my authentic Yes. And whatever that may be in my life, and to let it guide me. And to let you know, pleasure be a litmus test for my desire and to answer to my deep desires. So I think about it almost as marrying my Yes. And then I got married legally to another person. And I didn't do the tattoo right away. And then it was sort of in the process of us separating and moving towards our divorce. That it felt all the more important for me to follow my Yes. And to recommit to that. So, for my 30th birthday, a dear friend of mine, who does hand poke tattoos tattooed the word Yes, on my left, ring finger. And then not too long after that, I decided that I wanted to contextualize the Yes, a little bit more in an embodied sense and on my body, and I was thinking more about the option of No, and the importance of boundaries and how yes can't exist without no also existing because they give each other meaning. So I went back to my friend, and I had them tattoo the word "No", on the ring finger on my right hand. And I was thinking about, well, what falls in between yes and no, there's so much possibility in the space between yes and no. And I think of "Maybe", as the word that sort of, like, embodies the non-binaryness of yes and no, and wanted to reflect that as what I think of as sort of an incantation of infinite possibility. And so I went back a third time, and I'm very lucky to have this friend who was willing to give me a third tattoo and put the word "Maybe" in the center of my chest and near my heart and and in between my Yes and my No.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:42
Thank you for sharing that. I love it. I love the maybe mostly, I mean that to me to have that over your heart feels so meaningful. And I mean, it's interesting to to hear that whole journey. I hadn't heard that whole story, but I love the idea of that. Maybe. Because I just feel like that kind of sums it up for me with everything like everything, all the yoga teachings and everything. It's like, maybe.
M Camellia 00:25:30
I feel the same.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:31
Yeah. All right. Well, thanks so much for being here. And he also want to share
M Camellia 00:25:36
I've shared a lot, it feels good.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:40
Well, thanks again it was great, I appreciate it. Okay.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:42
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
