Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:42
Hi, everyone. I'm so excited to be here today with Shanna Small. Hi, how are you?
Shanna Small 00:00:48
I'm doing great.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:49
Thank you so much for joining me. I love what you share about yoga philosophy, you know, I've been following you for a long time. And it just, I think what you do is just make it very accessible, right? You make it accessible. And that's what I'm all about. So thanks for being here.
Shanna Small 00:01:07
Thanks for having me.
Jivana Heyman 00:01:10
So, my question for you, (I'm gonna read the question I shared with you), it's really about looking beyond the eight limbs, because I guess I'll say what I hear a lot of yoga teachers doing, (and they mean well) they're like, you know, "Are you teaching all eight limbs?" And that's a really important question. I mean, I appreciate that they're asking that. But then I kind of get frustrated, because there's more like the eight limbs, sure it, it's big. But it's just one part of yoga philosophy. And so my question is, like, beyond the eight limbs of yoga, what are the most important philosophical teachings of yoga for you? And how can we share them with our students?
Shanna Small 00:01:49
So for me, it changes just depending on what's going on in my life, which is what I love so much about yoga is that, I mean, there is something in there for everything that we're going through, and different things hit different at different times. And right now, what's hitting for me is that we are all already whole. In this society, we don't believe in our wholeness, we're always looking for things that are outside of us. We're thinking that if we find the right person that you know will be whole then if we have the house we'll be whole then and if we have the kids will be whole then. And the world is feeds on that, you know, the world feeds on it is constantly telling us, if you buy this thing, you're going to be whole join this group, you're going to be whole, and yoga is like you are all ready whole. You don't believe it, because of all the stories and the trauma and all the messages that you've picked up in your life. But you were born whole, equipped with everything that you need in order to thrive, honestly, as a human being on this planet. And if we lean into that wholeness and instead make yoga into, you know, a destruction process, or really a taking away process, a dismantling process. A lot of people talk about this thing with, you know, Shiva being over destruction. But what does that mean? And he's also the Adi Yogi over yoga as well. So what does that mean? Yoga is a destruction process. It's taking away all that stuff that we've picked up, and we thought is us and that we've just hung on to, and it's dismantling that. That is the destruction that comes with the knowledge of yoga. And what are we left with? We're left with wholeness, utter wholeness, full and complete. And this is a message of yoga that I have to lean into these days, because it's hard to believe that I'm okay. I've got everything I need. I am equipped. Doesn't matter what comes into my life. I can handle it. Right? When the world is telling me no, you need to do this. You got to do this. You got to do this. No, I'm full. I am whole. Let me sit in that. And, and go beyond the voices that are telling me that I am not.
Jivana Heyman 00:04:21
That's amazing. I think we could just stop there. I'm kidding. I want to keep talking to you. But I'm just saying. You just yeah, you pretty much nailed it for me. Like that's, that is the message and I love what you said about destruction and especially because I think maybe you can help me with this because I know a lot of people get confused when I talk about it too. It's like you know yoga as separation as as taking away, like you said. Well you used the word destruction, which I never used that word. But that, I think that's it right? Like destroying in a way destroying the ego mind, right, like destroying the confusion, the misidentification. But what's so interesting is you said it's destruction and then there's wholeness. And I think that we get so stuck that like if there's destruction that something's gone, you know what I mean? Like it seems like a paradox in a way that it's destroyed and yet it's still whole it reminds me of you know, that Om Purnamadah Purnamidam mantia I think as from the Upanishads, I have to look at that but it's like, you know, this is full like when you take fullness from fullness, fullness remains. Just reminds me of that like what you're saying, like destroy, and there's still wholeness? Like, yeah, can you say more about that?
Shanna Small 00:05:41
That is it all the way. We're just so afraid of what's there underneath all the stuff that we've picked up. So it's like, we remove something, like I see that happen a lot in the world of yoga, we start to peel away and the process starts to happen. And then it's so scary what might be underneath there, the people start to run in and fill it in with more stuff, I gotta get the next Asana, I gotta have the best yoga clothes, I've gotta like, be with this group and have this many followers and be doing all of this stuff. Because it's like when it starts to peel away, and we start to be a part of that destruction process. And that's one of the reasons why I'm using that word. Because in yoga land, we think it's supposed to be bliss right away. It can be bliss right away. But when ideas of what bliss is have been kind of co-opted by the world, the bliss means something that's outside of ourselves. And instead of something that's within us, then we start to think that everything that this destruction process is supposed to like feel good right away. And so when it doesn't, it's like, well, let me grab on to trying to do the latest and best āsana. Let me grab on to being in the "it" crew, let me grab on to all of this stuff, because I'm afraid of what true and pure wholeness is, and what that feels like. But when we touch it, when we touch it, and that's what yoga is trying to give us a little taste of it. When we touch it by getting still when we touch it by if we're in a āsana practice, and we're just so engrossed in it and the world just feel so much bigger, and the feeling that we get at the end, and that connection we have when we touch it, then we're like, okay, that's what wholeness is. And how can I seek that? And I think that's why yoga has been around for so long is because when people get a touch of that wholeness, because just want to hang on to and they keep searching for it. But the world is like, wholeness is this thing. It's over here. It's that, it's that. And it's like, no, it's none of that. And we have to continue to go back to it, and go back to it. So yeah, it can be a scary process, because what is it taking away as the Kleshas say, ignorance is the root is the root Klesha . Not knowing who and what we are is the root. And when we take out that root, boom, we're done. But that's a scary thing. Take out the root? And to really, like feel the wholeness and be with the wholeness is the root. That is it. That's a lot for us. So we have to slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly chip away until we get to that root, which is the wholeness, which is knowing who we are. That's what it is.
Jivana Heyman 00:08:55
Yes. Thank you. Yeah, I love the Kleshas. I think that they're so helpful to identify the obstacles, you know, like, what's in the way and like you said, it's ignorance of our spiritual nature. Remembering the wholeness, like you said, that's a great example to me of like, beyond the eight limbs, like I just feel like I know, I mean, again, like, it's great to study the eight limbs, but there's just so much more and like that teaching on the classes is so powerful to me this basic teaching that you're giving us about wholeness and like trying to figure out destroying the ignorance in a way, right, that's what we're destroying, destroying the ignorance that we're stuck in. What else? What are other some of your other favorite teachings to fall back on or to share that you share with your students?
Shanna Small 00:09:46
Another favorite is that our suffering is caused within the mind. It is really when we sit like Byron Katie, who I love, who is a spiritual teacher, something she says all the time is, "Other than what you're thinking and believing, are you okay?" And I asked myself all the time that like when I'm getting stressed and I'm mad and it feels like my world is falling apart, it's like other than this thing in my mind, am I okay? Right? Um, I'm usually sitting in a house or outside somewhere. breathing fresh air, I am completely totally fine. And the whole war is happening right inside of my head. It really is. And that is what Yoga is teaching us that there's a difference between, I say "suffering and pain". Some people use the words interchangeably, but I don't. I think pain is, for instance, like if I stubbed my toe, the feeling that I have when I stub my toe is pain, that is inevitable. We're gonna have pain. Now, what happens after I stubbed my toe? That's the suffering. If I'm like, oh my God, my toe, I'm such a horrible person. I'm such a klutz. I'll never get over what if they had to cut my foot off? Oh my God. Like that, right? There is like the suffering. And that's the part that is just that war in our minds. I can stub my toe and be like, oh, that hurts. Is it broke? No. Is it? Yes, go to the doctor. And it can be that simple. But usually, it's like this whole like chain of events that happen within our mind regarding that toe and what the symbolism is behind the toe? What's that gonna mean for us the rest of our lives? Right? Ridiculous.
Jivana Heyman 00:11:44
And like, what is your horoscope Right? Like, what? What's wrong with my...Mercury's in retrograde again? Or something? I don't know.
Shanna Small 00:11:50
Exactly, exactly. It's the story in our mind, that causes the suffering. And so like, with the Yoga Sutras, it's like, hey, yoga is a cessation of the fluctuations of the mind. You know? Why? While so you can see your own nature? Well, what happens if I can't see my own nature? Well, then you start to believe that that story is you and your nature, right? And this is like this, this suffering, like being on that wheel of Saṃsāra, as they call it. When it's the story, and it's but it's the hardest thing to let go of is that story, which gives meaning to things that really don't have a lot of meaning. And that's scary, too.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:34
Yeah, well, I was thinking about when Patanjali talks about suffering, and that, you know, in the middle of chapter two, saying, you know, future pain is avoidable. And like, how is it avoidable, though? And it's exactly what you're describing. It's like, avoidable when we stop conflating our true self with this, with nature, with our with creation with the ego mind, like we actually when we start to separate them, like you said before, destroy the illusion that we're living in to experience the truth. That's how you avoid future suffering.
Shanna Small 00:13:09
That's it. That's one of my teachers. Greg Nardi, he said that if we understood the first four verses of the Yoga Sutras, that's all we need. And that is what it says. It's basically the first four verses is like, it's all in your mind. It's all in your your mind. It's all the story that you tell about the circumstances that you find yourself in. And if we can just understand that and sit with that, why am I suffering right now? Like today? I was having trouble with Zoom, and why am I suffering? Because I had a thought in my mind that Zoom was supposed to work every time I turned it on, that it was supposed to be perfect. And and this is how my day was gonna go. I was just going to send out the Zoom link, which was going to take two minutes, people were going to open it, and it was going to be over. Done. No, that's not what happened. It certainly didn't work had to look through Zoom, fix stuff, reset, took forever, right? That's how the day went. And the suffering about it was in mind, in my mind. My ideas of Zoom was supposed to work how much time it was supposed to take, how it was supposed to go. My pictures in my mind at the students opening up their emails and being like, "oh, look, here's the Zoom link. Shanna, she's so smart!" And then when that doesn't happen, it's like, Oh, my God, they're gonna think I don't know what I'm doing. They're gonna think that I'm not organized. They're gonna think that oh, if that's the story, that's the suffering. That's the part that's causing me the problems. Yes, that's it. So if I can just deal with that story that just gets conflated around everything, you're an enlightened being!
Jivana Heyman 00:14:56
I love that! And I love how something you said early on, actually, you talked about how when we begin to destroy some of our ignorance, some of our wrong identification, that we just often just go and identify with something else. And I think as for yoga teachers, because mostly the people who this book is for on this podcast as far as really people that are studying to be teachers or are teachers. I just wonder about this identification as teacher and how that can interfere sometimes with our ability to actually do our practice to be present, to be honest. And your example of Zoom, I just want to share, I had a really challenging situation yesterday, which just makes me laugh now, but but I was getting ready to teach, I was leading a training and the students were on break, but they're all still there. I didn't know my mic was live, and I was yelling up to my son to get the dog because my dog is coughing. You know, and then I was all embarrassed about it. And I thought, well, what am I embarrassed about? You know, what is it about? Am I trying to pretend I'm something I'm not like, the fact that I have to yell up to my wasn't mean about about just yelling, like, can you get the dog? You know, whatever. Actually, I was like, Are you dressed? I think that's what I was saying. I don't know. Are you dressed? Are you ready? Can you come down and get him (to my son)? I mean, to get her anyway, it just made me laugh. And my reaction made me think, "Wow, I'm not being really integrated in this." Like, there's something I'm pretending or trying to hide from my students. Why else would I be embarrassed?
Shanna Small 00:16:30
Exactly. It's like, the fact that that Zoom link didn't work has nothing to do with who I am and what I am, right? And then that just opens us up to more work. I'm writing a post right now as we speak for Instagram about that, how the problem is our entrance into the growth opportunity. Everybody's talking about how they want to be their own guru. But that's the only way to do it, is to be like, "Why did I feel that way over a Zoom link?" Like, why did I feel that way about having my microphone on? Oh, this is why and then sitting with it and going and going through it and feeling it. And then that's the only way we can be our own guru is by doing those types of things. That's the only way we can release that suffering unless we can understand wholeness right away, which most people can't. But is by doing that thing, right? Because after those four verses Patanjali starts talking about the mental modifications, those thoughts that cause us suffering, and even without knowing what those are just doing that part being like, "Why am I ashamed that I did that? Whoa, here's something that I need to work on! Here's my opportunity to be my own teacher! To be my own guru and to learn and to change and, and to grow. And to get out of this cycle of suffering." I mean, it's full.
Jivana Heyman 00:17:53
Well, it's funny, because in a way, it's it is pain and suffering that generally are those lessons. I mean, that's the kind of what is it full circle or the irony of the situation. If we're willing to learn from that suffering, that sometimes you can avoid it in the future, right? If you learn the lesson, then you don't have to repeat it again. Right.? But what about okay, well, I have a hard question for you. How about systemic problems? So like, can you you know, say, systemic racism, for example, like that causes suffering, but it's not because we've done anything? You know? So it's like, how does? How did the teachings apply there? That's a hard question. I hope it's okay.
Shanna Small 00:18:33
A hard question. And I just want to think about what direction do I want to go at it from. So my teachers have taught me that, you know, when we talk about karma, or the laws of cause and effect, or why things happen to people that, you know, some people believe karma is just this thing that we do individually. But I was taught, there's our individual actions, and then there's our community actions, and then there's actions of nature. And so that really helps me a lot because there are things that we were born into, or things that are happening to us as a result of the decisions that the greater community is making. And this is acknowledged in the Yoga tradition. It is and I really love that. So what does that mean for us? It means that you do what is in front of you, as you know, the greater teachings from you know, the Bhagavad Gita tell us around that. Is that, okay, so all these people are over here doing things that have a direct effect on us, then what is our duty is where our Swadharma comes in, where we're like, what is in front of me to do at this moment? So yes, I have to respond to what's going on. And what is it for me to do? And I think yoga does say that everything that happens is a collective response, and that we have a community job. That's what Dharma really is about. It's about this idea that you know, in order for everything in the universe to run in a way that is going to be positive for everyone that we all have to come in and do our part and do our duty, and that we have a collective a job to do, a collective responsibility. And yes, there is us individuals making our moves, but those moves affect the collective and the collective moves affect us. And that is what yoga says for me. So it's yeah, all this is going on and you know, I didn't start racism and probably and nobody who's alive right now started it. But what is our job to end it? I always use the example of, you know, if you walk into a Yoga studio, and there's glass all over the floor, you know, most people are going to pick up the glass or find a broom or go to the front desk, like, "Oh, there's glass all over the floor". They're not gonna be like, "I didn't break the glass, I'm just gonna go." Most people aren't, "I didn't break the glass, I'm just gonna ignore it." No, no, like, "There's glass on the floor, somebody might cut their foot!" At least warn people don't walk over there, there's glass on the floor, they're gonna do something, even though they did not break the glass. And that's the example I use. Some people are like, what racism has nothing to do with me. And I didn't start you know, we didn't start it. But you can help stop it the same way you help stop everything else in the world if you see craziness happen, right? And so no, we didn't start it. But we have to ask ourselves individually as the person that we are right now, with the power and the privilege that we hold in the spaces that we walk in. What can we do? Right now? When it comes to things like that?
Jivana Heyman 00:22:07
That's an awesome answer. Thank you for sharing that. You know, I think I bring it up because I think spiritual bypassing is the issue that you're kind of touching on, right? Like, it's not my job, you know, I just think positive thoughts and then everything's okay. Like, you were saying, No, that actually, you know, we have a responsibility to well to do service, right? Like it like you mentioned, the Gita like to be of service in the world means to actually work on myself so that I can not cause harm and actually maybe prevent harm in the world to matter. And that's what Arjuna is being asked to do, right? To go fight a just war, to like, reduce harm in the world. That's another, say a great example of like, beyond the eight limbs for me, because like you're sharing about Gita, and then Karma Yoga, like is missing an eight limbs, you know, like Karma Yoga. Sorry, were you gonna say?
Shanna Small 00:23:01
You know, it's, it's actually, it's embedded in the eight limbs.
Jivana Heyman 00:23:05
Okay, I guess I ahimsa.
Shanna Small 00:23:07
Yeah, if you look at a Ahimsa and stuff, like Aparigraha, I think it's embedded. It's embedded in the eight limbs. And I think if people actually live the eight limbs, that they would, honestly, at least be on the beginnings of Karma Yoga, there's some little nuances that are mentioned in there. There's some little nuances of Karma Yoga that are not mentioned in eight limbs, but for the most part, a lot of it is, is in there. And I think if we actually lived it, which is where the problem is, you know, most people, they get ahimsa just means, you know, I don't eat meat. And you know, I didn't slap somebody this morning, that's it. Right? But it goes so far beyond that. That is that questioning that me and you just talked about. That is part of the process of using the eight limbs. Okay, I got mad about a Zoom link. Why? Why am I causing this damage and this destruction to me? And we start asking ourselves these questions, and then it all leads back to the eight limbs and the Karma yoga and all of that. But yeah, you know, people are afraid of the Gita. And, you know, I was afraid of the Gita for a long time, because I didn't understand it. And I was unpacking the Gita through my limited, Judeo Christian, Pentecostal, Southern fire and brimstone mind. And it took someone who was immersed in Vedic knowledge to break it down. And that was like, Oh, wow, that's pretty freakin amazing. You know, it's a scary book for a lot of people. So I just recommend going and getting a good teacher to break it down. Because once it's broken down it is to me it's one of the most beautiful, beautiful books on yoga. Once we really understand it, it is life changing or for me, it has.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:05
Yeah, or even just find a different translation because I find the different translations have such different feeling and tone and like some I just can't some I can't connect to it all. And then some I'm like, "Oh, wow. It's like poetry."
Shanna Small 00:25:18
Exactly. It's so beautiful. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:22
Well, thank you so much. And I wonder if you have anything else you want to share? I wanted to keep it brief, just because it's a lot. So you've given us so much today. Oh, my God. Thank you.
Shanna Small 00:25:34
Yeah, no, yeah, that's it. That was great. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:38
All right, well, I appreciate your time and you know, I'm happy, I'll share all the links and stuff, but people can reach out to you and you can be their teacher. Because I think people can learn a lot from you. And I just I just did so.
Shanna Small 00:25:51
I'm always grateful and thankful for you know, being a part of, you know, the Accessible Yoga community and, and all the love and all the appreciation and the help that you guys have given me. So thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:26:05
Thank you. All right. Take care. Bye.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:36
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
