Jivana Heyman
Hello and welcome. This is the yoga Revolution podcast. My name is Jivana Heyman, my pronouns are he and him. This podcast is an exploration of how we can live yoga right now. And how we can apply the yoga teachings in our lives will discuss the intersection of yoga and social justice, as well as how to build a practice that supports our activism. All my guests are contributors to my new book, yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. Thanks so much for joining me. Let's get started.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the yoga Revolution Podcast. I'm very excited today to have a special guest M Camellia. Hi M, hey, let me introduce you first. So M Camellia, as a fat, queer, non binary neuro emergent yoga teacher, writer and advocate called to create profoundly accessible spaces for self inquiry. They believe that the goal of yoga is collective liberation, and challenge contemporary yoga practitioners to dismantle the systems and beliefs that hold us all back them as a co founder of the trans yoga project and serves on the staff of Accessible Yoga, among other roles within the realm of yoga service, and I'm excited to talk to you today before I go on, I also want to say that not only are you a contra contributor to this book, but you helped me like organize it, I would say me project managed it or what would you say?
M Camellia
You know, I don't know if a project managed to the whole thing. But I, I was honored by the opportunity to read through and to give feedback and to Yeah, be involved in the process in that way.
Jivana Heyman
Right. And you helped me in so many ways. So I'm grateful to you for that. And for all of your work and for your teaching, which is what I really want to focus on today. So what I've been doing with these podcasts is starting with asking the contributor to read their contributions. I wonder if you could do that,
M Camellia
for sure. I've been engaged in social justice work since my teens, but without yoga, my vision was limited. My practice has taught me to answer to an internal authority and standard, my innate agency. By working to reflect my truest, deepest nature, instead of mirroring dominant culture, I began to understand consent on a deeper level. The divine in me, yoked to our collective divinity already knows liberation. And it speaks the language of sensation. When I'm acting in alignment with inner wisdom and my unique purpose, I feel it in my body, profound peace and satisfaction despite any challenges. I call this my divine Yes, at my most discerning this sensation is my charioteer, driving me to act explaining my role and providing direction. To me, this is Ishvarapranadhana, a willing surrender of illusory individualism, and a commitment to co creating a just world that elicits a liberated collective. Yes.
Jivana Heyman
I love that so much.
M Camellia
Thank you. Oh, I mean, it took me I'm, when I start, right, especially within a like, little a word count constraint, you know, I tend to go on. So I think my first draft was probably like three pages, whittled down to this paragraph. It took a while, but I was really happy with how it came out. And I think it really does present the essence of what I was trying to say and all of those, any words?
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, and I'd like to actually go through with you today, like kind of, to look at the different things you bring up, because there's so much in there that I love, I love to talk about, and I and I'd love to hear you talk about, I want to say that I I'm I this contribution is in the third section of the book where I talk about building a practice, you know, like how to have a personal practice and I I just love your focus on this kind of internal Yes. And this like, finding that internal voice and listening listening to that voice. There's something so many says Yes, twice in here. And I think that's just so powerful to me, like creating, cultivating that sensitivity that allows us to hear that.
M Camellia
Absolutely. Yes and no. And recently, maybe are kind of big themes in my own practice and just you know, in my life which, which ultimately as my practice, to me, they're sort of like, boiled down example of duality. And also something that's just so necessary to explore as folks existing in the world and needing to navigate it and make decisions. You know, they're more words we use all of the time. And I don't know that we necessarily stop and really think about the deeper implications of either one. And maybe we think more often about the deeper implications of No, rather than yes, you know, we talk about boundaries, right now we talk about, you know, honoring our own physical emotional limitations, our time limitations, you know, and, and honoring our own needs within that. So I think we, we do talk about how to say no, even if we take a long time, or even if I had taken a long time, at least, to really internalize and learn how to set good boundaries, but I don't know if we necessarily spend as much time talking about, yes. To me, the metaphor that makes the most sense is like, thinking about a long journey, right? Our lives are a journey, and we all have a starting place. And wherever you are, right now, you know, that is where you are right now. And it's the starting place for the rest of your life. And if where I am, in the present moment, in any facet of my life, or in general, is feeling like a no, if I'm not feeling satisfied, I've, you know, learned through my practice to sort of feel those cues in my body. But if all I can do is say no, then all I can do is push off from this spot from this moment right now. And it's a little bit aimless. Yeah. Like, I can say, I'm unhappy, you know, with where I'm living as an example, right? But that is not enough to give me actual direction and to put real motivation behind the decisions that I make. Because if all I'm doing is saying no, I'm just sort of kicking off of my current physician, but not in any given intentional direction. So it's really about figuring out what it feels like in my body, in my mind, what sensations come up, when I think about something or experience something that really is a deep? Yes, for me. And then not only using my note to push off, but also my Yes, as a guide, right, as a compass a little bit to give me that direction. And that has been a game changer in my life in terms of how I make decisions and how much satisfaction and peace and yeah, I have been able to find.
Jivana Heyman
How can you talk about it more in your practice? You mentioned briefly, but I'm curious about you said, you know, you've you've like, focus on building that awareness in your practice to help you find Yes, or the No. Yeah, right. Yeah, like maybe membership?
M Camellia
Are you too? I do too. So I just got tattoos, right, I got Yes, on my ring finger on my left hand, that like symbol of commitment over there. And I got no, on the opposite ring finger on that like, right, action oriented hand. But then I got maybe across my chest because that, like that word maybe is a little more resonant to me even in this moment, just as the one of these three words that is a not the binary option, right, somewhere in the wall. It's like this large scope of space in the middle. And I also think that like maybe is where potential is held, like yes and no feel so definitive and final, but maybe implies possibility. And so I'm, I'm looking at it as like, you know, my practice my journey, my life throughout that I'm figuring out what the possibilities are for myself. And I'd say that this comes into my practice in a lot of ways. I think, one of the ways that like, I like to think about as maybe more of a tangible metaphor is with the body is with asana practice and movement practice in general, as well as just like body awareness and interoception. And whether I'm actually moving through postures or moving at all, doing that practice of checking in with my body internally and of course movement practice and meditation and all of the other practices within yoga have helped me hone some of that interoception and that sensation, that ability to feel into my body. But if we talk about it in terms of asana, you know, I am in my body, if I am really tuned in to what I'm feeling often I feel somewhat of a call from my body, right? You know, something is uncomfortable or something feels really great. Something feels like a yes or a no, right? If something hurts, that's a no. So I adjust, I adapt. And I move myself into a position where I feel that ease and that, that yes, in my physical body of like, yes, this fits. Yes, it is serving whatever intention I have put behind this practice, or that I'm exploring right now. And it doesn't really matter what that looks like, aesthetically, it's about that internal sensation of following the guidance of my body, right, of letting pain speak to me, but also letting pleasure speak to me just as actively,
Jivana Heyman
right. And you I've learned a lot of, you know, from you around consent and power dynamics and yoga, and I feel like that is the key like that you start to focus inward, rather than listen to external authorities, either other people's voices in our head or actual voices, like of the teacher or of the culture. Yeah, it seems like that's where our practice really grows out of, like our personal practice. Yeah.
M Camellia
Yeah. When I tried to be a yoga teacher, in 2016, it was at a studio called Capitol Hill yoga, it was literally a few blocks down Pennsylvania Avenue, from the Capitol, the, the, the mall, the National Mall, near the White House. And we had, you know, other students within our studio who were very, very, like high powered folks in government, including like, senators, right, and coming to classes at the studio, because it was very close. And we did these, like lunchtime and just kind of break time classes that folks would walk into, along with, you know, folks from the local neighborhood, there was a large diversity in that clientele. But a lot of people who worked on the Hill and had a lot of power in their day to day lives. And I had the experience, as I started teaching there, of just really thinking about the inverted dynamic that was happening as I was teaching to folks with all of that power in other realms of life, right, where, like, the decisions that they're making, maybe even later that day, could very largely affect my own life. And here I am, at the front of a room, giving them essentially direction about what to do with their body, right. And I was definitely trained as I think a lot of people were to teach by command and not really use any kind of invitational or trauma informed language. Like my initial teaching, as a teacher, my training as a teacher reinforced that like we couldn't keep people safe, unless we were giving them specific directive cues, which I no longer ascribe to whatsoever, my teaching is so different. That's where it really like sparked this thought. For me, I've just like this is the position in which I'm wielding so much power in my life, right when I come and teach class, and I have a room full of students who come in with their own bodies that are ultimately theirs to control. And instead of teaching them to cue into that to tap into that I'm literally commanding, how they position themselves what they do, and I see all of these people sort of pushing and not necessarily tapping in or coming in specifically to kind of tune out the sensations of their body and to have somebody else give them direction, maybe as sort of the contrast to all the decisions that they're making elsewhere. Right. But I also heard that feedback a lot from students that like, you know, they wanted adjustments, they wanted to know how to do it, quote, unquote, right. And they wanted to come to a space where somebody else would tell them what to do. Because that felt like a relief from the pressure of, of day to day life. And it was also a studio that did a sort of power Hatha yoga style, and so it was like, fast paced sort of fitness oriented definitely like strive to push yourself kind of environment in an area of the country that just because it is the seat of such power has sort of a kind of competitive, even if that's just with yourself like a big improvement or a big culture around, like, we've always got to be improving yourself, you've got to be like upping your credentials and building your network and building your power. And I just knowing my own practice, especially as I continued to practice for few years, after some of those initial experiences, and continued my teaching practice, as well, just started to notice that, you know, I was getting the least out of group, asana classes where there was sort of a one size fits all this is how you do it the right way directive that that was actually feeling constraining, and that my sort of resistance to authority just continued to build to the point where I would go into those classes. And I would leave, feeling completely annoyed and frustrated that like, you know, I was doing maybe an expression of an asana that felt really great in my body, and then had somebody come up behind me, maybe without asking and moving my body into a different shape that didn't feel comfortable or safe or productive for whatever reason. And that's when it really was like, we we need to change this because we're talking about an inner practice. And the way that we're going about teaching it is from that position of externalized. Authority and direction.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you is like, Why do you think that we've gone down this road? I mean, it feels like yoga teaching is so often done that way, like where it's about following the rules? That seems it seems to be in opposition to the main philosophy and teachings of yoga.
M Camellia
Yeah, definitely. I feel like there's several pieces behind that. I think, for one, we live in a culture of domination, a culture of competitiveness, and have constructed hierarchy. And that is how we have organized just about everything that is rooted in supremacy, culture, white supremacy culture that is rooted in capitalism, and like that idea of, you know, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. And that's how you make it and this disregard for privilege or the exploration of your own social positioning. And so we have traditionally organized our families into hierarchical structures that are built on sort of patriarchal models. We've built our education system into the same sort of hierarchy where you've got teacher and then you have student and teacher is kind of commanding is enforcing rules, right is put in this position of power. And, you know, students are not necessarily empowered to explore, learning what they care about what they love, and are passionate and interested in what feels good to them to explore what actually suits their learning style, right? We see this in our workplaces that are often structured in that same sort of hierarchical model of like, you have an owner or CEO, and then you have your middle management. And then you have you know, your your sort of staff. And there's this reinforced idea that we need to be striving and competing with each other to climb a corporate ladder or to someday be qualified, whatever Exactly. That means, in any culture or days, clients standard, to move up to place ourselves in positions of superiority. And so I think a big reason that we see that in the yoga culture is that it's largely mirroring that dominant culture that is organized into these constructed hierarchies. It's mirroring that education model, where a teacher is on a pedestal and student needs to listen to the rules that are being enforced, and that that's the only way to learn. They also think you're right, I think that's antithetical to the practice itself. And the roots of that practice that are, are rooted in liberation and connecting to inner wisdom and to the true self within that's the capital S, you know, to our true nature, and letting that be expressed through our action, our action in the world. So That plus my study in trauma, and its psycho physiological impacts on the body mind, and and also seeing the ways that the impacts of like acute personal trauma on an individual are really mirrored on larger and larger scales as we start to talk about like abusive environments. And then even like that dominant culture of supremacy and oppression, you know, we're just seeing the same thing happen on these various like, concentric circle growing outward layers, right, that mirror one another. And I think, because we have such an audience in the West, like, a reason that I have not stopped teaching you about asana altogether, is because I recognize that I hold a position of power in that space. And I have the opportunity to, to know that and to own that, and to collaborate with my students and to create a different environment where, instead of giving commands, I am using what I know and the tools that are available to me to offer options for exploring themselves, and for tuning into their own bodies, and to really own their own power and resources that exist within them and to use them as they choose. And so I emphasize that element of choice, and of listening to sensation and letting it be your teacher, when I lead a class. And my experience teaching that way, of course, has been mixed, because there are people really resistant to that. And one we are used to
living in cultures where we have to take direction, where we live in a police state where we have a boss where we may not be the quote unquote, head of household in our family, or might have a history of abuse or a dynamic of power that's been inequitable. We put ourselves in a state, I don't know put ourselves but we out of self protection, right? kind of enter a state, often I think of like, I just need to do what I'm told, that's how I'm going to survive this or how I'm going to get through this or how I'm going to be successful in my job, or how I'm going to earn that degree, or whatever it is. And so we come into the classroom with that in mind as well. Like, if I'm going to be successful in my yoga practice, whether that is on a, you know, spiritual level, or you know, for a lot of folks, it's on a physical level, but this idea that they need to conform, rather than explore and express, right. So I see yoga teachers in the West as having a lot of power, because embodiment is so powerful, and, you know, practicing these themes in our physical bodies in our breath, practice, as well as thinking about them, contemplating them, meditating on them, and including all of the limbs of yoga and all of the aspects of a vast system of spiritual practice has a lot of power to radiate out, and to change culture, by allowing individuals to really recognize what is true within them. Does that make sense?
Jivana Heyman
Yeah. And I, but I, I guess what I wanted to share as I feel like, people can get easily confused because yoga is a practice of surrender, like at the end of your quote, In my book, you say, Yeah, to me. You're talking about well, at my most asserting this sensation is my charioteer, driving me to act explaining my role and providing direction to me, this is ishwarapranidhana a willingnew to surrender, illusory, illusory individualism, and a commitment to co creating a just world that elicits a liberated collective. Yes. And I guess what I'm saying is, I think people get confused between surrender to an external authority, because that's how we've been trained versus what you described here. Which is an internal authority. Yes. But because I think this surrender piece is so powerful.
M Camellia
It is. Yeah, I think it it is so powerful. And it took a really long time for me to even come to the level of understanding that I feel like I have right now about that being a surrender to the higher self that, you know, I think about the Kosha model as being like the innermost self, we have to peel back the layers of our conditioning and we need to peel back all that's been internalized by those external things. already figures and see if we can sort of extricate that. And build skill and capacity in feeling ourselves through all of those various layers of, of knowledge and wisdom that our bodies hold, and that our energy body holds. And all of those different pushes the sheets at the body hold until we can get to the deepest place that we have access to, and figure out what Yes, is there. And so there's a little bit there too, for me, that kind of brings in the concept of like, dharma or, or purpose or fitting into the larger hole, right, that we need to figure out the reality of ourselves and act from that place to be in alignment with the whole right. And I don't think that we can actually co create a liberated collective Yes. If we don't, as individuals understand what our individual yes is, because it's only from that place of understanding our own desire and our own power, that we can then come together and community and express that to each other and negotiate right go through like that consent practice piece, and that consensus building piece to figure out what yes looks like for a collective body of multiple individuals. And that's where the sort of consent education comes in. It's the the piece where we have kind of already done our inner work and and now we're interacting with other bodies with other beings and undergoing a constant negotiation, like always navigating a power dynamic in any given relationship.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, that's helpful. I also want to go back to something you mentioned, you talked about trauma and how that impacts Well, what I heard you saying is that that impacts are almost like our ability to trust our experience or something like that. That's maybe what's happening. And I just like, that kind of reframe of trauma informed yoga, because I feel like, I feel like trauma informed teaching is kind of misunderstood and almost used to just, like overly simplify the teachings or sanitize them, rather than to do this, which I think is what you get to, which is give people a connection with themselves, give them back agency and power, because I feel like that's really what trauma informed teaching. could do. Yeah, right.
M Camellia
Yeah. I do think it's what, what it aims to do. Um, I think a lot of what we call trauma informed models today, come out of sort of a westernized psychological model. And that's where you get that sanitisation. And that sort of disruption from the roots of yoga. I was recently on the faculty for a training that was led by Susanna Barca Taki. And, and she was talking about trauma informed yoga in a session recently. And the statement that I really like took away from that and hold on to was that, like, the roots of yoga are inherently trauma informed that if we are honoring authentic practice, then we are already teaching in a trauma informed way. Because we are already offering skills and teachings and practices that tune people into their own sense of agency and sovereignty. And then to express that beyond themselves. And I think that that's what some of these newer, you know, Western science and formed models are also intending to do. I just don't think we need to, nor do I feel it's appropriate to divorce. You know, that empowerment, and that that model from source, right, like I'm here for science and research, but also here for integrating that with the truth and understanding that the only reason we've needed to create those models is because we've already strayed too far away from the roots of yoga.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, I love that connection, too. So trauma informed teaching is more. It's more like looking back to the roots of yoga. But also I think it's doing what you talk about, which is focusing on power dynamic. Because when I see trauma informed teaching often do is like finding a way to say that that feels okay where it's like, you know, use Invitational language, because really, Invitational language is what you were saying. It's like talking about power and the teacher not having their authority but like trying to share that with the student in the class.
M Camellia
One thing I will say is that I have been doing a lot less of these sort of studio group classes recently, not just because Have COVID And my sort of dislike for trying to teach us online. But that's also in part because of the power dynamic, like the shift in power dynamic that I see when I'm trying to teach online and everybody's like, got their camera turned off. And nobody's interacting, like everybody's muted and other math. So there's no like q&a or discussion or collaboration that can really happen in that environment, which has been an issue for me. So I have been doing a lot more one on one teaching, which has its own challenges in terms of like financial accessibility, but in terms of the dynamic there, it is so much more evident. And so much easier to discern sort of the power dynamic that's at play, and to have a real conversation and negotiation about that, and to be in dialogue with the students throughout the practice. And that's an element of teaching privately or to much smaller groups that I find really, really profound in the feedback that I get from them in the way that the practice is impacting them. And also in terms of being able to really co create that, yes, I think that there are ways that especially in person, and even online, we can work towards that sort of culture in, in the practices that we lead or participate in. But I, I think that that requires a lot of sort of community re education among teachers, a lot more attention paid to the history of yoga, to the roots of yoga, to, to the philosophy of yoga and more of the holistic practice, and fostering a deeper understanding as teachers of what we're really like aiming for here, because it's not some sort of, you know, idealized supremacy sized hierarchize body or physical position, asana expression, but rather, a liberated soul, right, collaborative spirit, and a liberated individual who can bring that individual liberation and extend it outward to their communities, and bring us all a little bit closer to that alignment with our nature, not only as individuals, but also our collective nature, our collective dharma.
Jivana Heyman
And how do you how like?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think that a lot of it has to do with
M Camellia
starting even before you hold a class before you're in space with folks, like I think, doing, of course, your inner work, and I, you know, the, the teachers that I respect will always tell you, like, you need to do your own practice, right, and continue to be a practitioner, as a teacher, I think that's completely true. I think that if we're gonna hold such a position of power as to lead a class or facilitate a practice, we need to own our own power and positionality. And that means understanding the inherent dynamic between teacher and student that's been constructed in our society, but also understanding power and privilege in a larger context that you know, students with various identities, various backgrounds, like people who experience oppression in their day to day lives, and maybe oppressions that you don't experience places where you have the privilege, that's also going to enter the dynamic in the classroom. So like, step one is always do your own work. And I don't just mean do your asana practice, I mean, you know, do your unlearning, do your personal interrogation of what you've internalized and what you believe to be true. Make sure you understand your positionality in the social landscape, as well as in the classroom dynamic. And then owning that, like present yourself that way. So when you do your marketing, when you make your website when you are speaking at an event, etc, making sure to sort of own what you know of yourself, your position and your power. And that can be verbal, that can also be subtle, right? It can be in the way that you act in and interact with students it's like is the difference between walking into the classroom after everybody has set up when you've been kind of like off hidden somewhere in the back of the studio, and kind of walking in and and it's almost a performance of like, Hello, I am the teacher. Here's my wisdom now follow my instruction, which is I you know, that's how I used to enter a classroom. It was very much like, Alright, I'm gonna make my grand entrance to my audience. And it's about like being there getting to know students, prefacing your class. As with, you know, owning your own power and maybe an invitation for students to take a moment to reflect inward before you're like doing your warm up or your son citation and, and connect into whatever internal source it can. I like to start every practice with an invitation to listen in Word or to listen to something that I might be saying. So I'll give like a two or three minute more philosophical talk that's tied to the practice that we're going to do. But I also always give folks the option there to just be tuned into their bodies and their breath into tune me out. And I always preface class with exactly what I'm saying that like, this is exploratory, and this is for you. It's your practice, and we're hearing community. But we're not hearing community to conform with one another, or hearing communities just support one another and exploring our individuality and how that comes together to create the collective like there's no unity without diversity. That's, that's duality also, right? Quote,
yeah, and then, just in terms of, like, how we're actually teaching, I do use an invitational language, everything is an offer. But I also would say I expand that to be exploratory language. So in terms of invitation, it's like, yeah, maybe you want to try this, perhaps this, here's a few like, options for you. And often, at least one of those is going to be something that's really dynamic and fluid and exploratory and less of a static asana and more of a like, maybe you choose instead of like taking any given arm position to like, circle your arms and pay attention to your shoulders and your back and your chest. And notice, you know, what level of rotation and what position for your arms in this shape feels like it's serving you best, or is bringing you pleasure, or is offering you something that you're looking for in this moment. And then you create your own variation from there, right, it doesn't have to be one of these pre prescribed ideas. And I build a lot of that into the beginning of practice. As well, like, the whole warm up section is generally exploratory dynamic movement that is going to then maybe become pertinent in the sequence that I'm offering later, you know, maybe we did some of those arm circles in a seated position at the very beginning. And then we come to, you know, a standing asana or you can take any arm variation you like, and I can call back to remind them of that exploration, which sort of simplifies the queuing and just in terms of efficacy of the class, and like efficiency, also gives the opportunity then to continue exploring, or to take what you already learned 15 minutes ago, about your own body and its pleasure in its comfort, and to just find that now here and find maybe a more static posture that has that, you know, that steadiness and ease that stare on Suka and, and already have that information as we go further into physical practice. Right.
Jivana Heyman
Awesome. Yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to share? Um, this is all really amazing, and helpful.
M Camellia
I mean, I think the only other piece that I find really, really important is the dialogue and the continued dialogue aspect of teaching of checking in. And sometimes that is literally like, asking a student that I have a board with, like, how's this feeling? Or, you know, like, depending on the size of the group, maybe that's just an invitation, like, check in with your body, do a quick body scan, even in this asana, not just like in our yoga nidra, or in our seated position, but like, try a body scan right now. And notice if there's anything that your body is asking to be adjusted, like, not just be in conversation with me and give me feedback. So that's always welcome. And I can help you find more options or opportunities for exploration, if you would like that. But also, like, really listen to that internal authority tune inward and let that be your guide. Right. Yeah. Have a dialogue with yourself.
Jivana Heyman
Have a dialogue with yourself? Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think that's the key right there. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And for contributing to the book, and for all the ways that you support me, I really appreciate it and appreciate you. Yeah, and that was just a lot so I'm sure people will enjoy listening to that. There's so much so much detail and depth in what you share. So, thank you. Yeah. All right. Take care. Take care. Thanks so much for listening and joining the conversation. yoga is truly a revolutionary practice. Thanks for being here. If you haven't already, I would love for you to read my book, yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. It's available wherever books are sold. Also, you can check out my website JivanaHeyman.com. There's some free classes on there and a meditation, and you can find out more about my upcoming trainings and other programs. Hope to see you next time. Thanks. Bye
